20:01:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:01:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-irc
20:01:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:01:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:01:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:01:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM scheduled to start now
20:01:31 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:01:31 <trackbot> Date: 23 November 2009
20:02:00 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has now started
20:02:06 <Zakim> +??P2
20:02:13 <ed> Zakim, ?? is me
20:02:13 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:03:21 <Zakim> +??P5
20:03:32 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:03:34 <jwatt> Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:03:34 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
20:03:54 <Zakim> +Shepazu.a
20:04:10 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:04:16 <shepazu> \me zakim, drop shepazu
20:04:27 <shepazu> zakim, drop shepazu 
20:04:27 <Zakim> Shepazu is being disconnected
20:04:28 <Zakim> -Shepazu
20:04:32 <jwatt> Zakim, who's here?
20:04:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, jwatt, Shepazu.a
20:04:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, shepazu, trackbot, ed, jwatt, karl, anthony, ed_work, eseidelDesk
20:06:16 <Zakim> +Chris_Lilley
20:06:51 <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
20:07:03 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jwatt (20%), Chris_Lilley (41%)
20:07:49 <shepazu> scribenick: shepazu 
20:08:04 <shepazu> chair: ed 
20:08:22 <shepazu> Topic: SVG 1.1 2nd Ed
20:08:44 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/1
20:09:03 <ed> 12 open issues, 22 open actions
20:10:52 <shepazu> issue-2013?
20:10:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-2013 -- Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask unintuitive -- OPEN
20:10:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013
20:10:52 <ChrisL> issue-2013?
20:10:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-2013 -- Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask unintuitive -- OPEN
20:10:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013
20:11:55 <ed> moved to SVG Core 2.0
20:11:58 <shepazu> Resolution: we will move this to SVG 2.0
20:14:01 <shepazu> issue-2017?
20:14:01 <trackbot> ISSUE-2017 -- Find sane values for getSubStringLength and selectSubString -- OPEN
20:14:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2017
20:14:47 <ed> ACTION-2325?
20:14:47 <trackbot> ACTION-2325 -- Doug Schepers to propose wording and examples for ISSUE-2107 -- due 2008-10-30 -- CLOSED
20:14:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2325
20:16:01 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0239.html
20:16:35 <ed> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-svg-minutes.html#action02
20:18:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:18:35 <anthony> Zakim, [IP is me
20:18:35 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:19:32 <shepazu> ed: heycam didn't see a strong argument either way
20:19:53 <shepazu> ... what should we do with this? close it or take it up again?
20:21:58 <shepazu> jwatt: acid3 depends on this behavior?
20:22:00 <shepazu> ed: it did at one time
20:22:03 <shepazu> ... we did change the behavior in the spec for the better
20:22:10 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/changes.html#TextChapter
20:23:20 <shepazu> shepazu: we might look at this more closely in SVG 2.0
20:23:24 <shepazu> ed: right
20:23:24 <ChrisL> i think its closed, for 1.1
20:23:40 <shepazu> jwatt: the current errata makes sense to me
20:23:54 <shepazu> resolution: close the issue
20:24:39 <shepazu> issue-2071?
20:24:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-2071 -- potential security hole involving pointer-events, filters, foreignObject, cross-origin IFRAMEs, and elementFromPoint -- OPEN
20:24:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2071
20:24:55 <shepazu> resolution: move to SVG 2.0
20:25:03 <shepazu> issue-2113?
20:25:03 <trackbot> ISSUE-2113 -- animate-elem-35 -- OPEN
20:25:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2113
20:25:13 <ed> ISSUE-2213?
20:25:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-2213 -- Some issues in the definition of suspendRedraw/unsuspendRedraw/forceRedraw -- OPEN
20:25:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2213
20:25:47 <shepazu> resolution: defer to SVG 2.0
20:26:21 <shepazu> issue-2217?
20:26:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-2217 -- How units are resolved on an SVGLength is not defined -- RAISED
20:26:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2217
20:27:34 <shepazu> Resolution: move to SVG 2.0
20:27:45 <shepazu> issue-2219?
20:27:45 <trackbot> ISSUE-2219 -- Missing test coverage for SVG 1.1 properties -- RAISED
20:27:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2219
20:28:37 <shepazu> jwatt: we should put this off until we decide on the new test format
20:29:27 <Zakim> -Chris_Lilley
20:30:02 <shepazu> Resolution: resolve in SVG 2.0
20:30:40 <Zakim> +Chris_Lilley
20:30:56 <shepazu> issue-2259?
20:30:56 <trackbot> ISSUE-2259 -- Inconsistent use of <uri> symbol -- RAISED
20:30:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2259
20:32:03 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/masking.html#ClipPathProperty
20:32:11 <shepazu> ed: didn't we resolve this in second edition?
20:32:37 <shepazu> ChrisL: basically, this is rolling in changes we made in SVGT1.2
20:33:09 <shepazu> ChrisL: it should be easy to do
20:34:08 <shepazu> Action: ChrisL to make funcURI consistent, and update tests
20:34:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2697 - Make funcURI consistent, and update tests [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-11-30].
20:35:18 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#InterfaceSVGViewSpec
20:35:48 <ChrisL> issue-2263?
20:35:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-2263 -- The attributes on the SVGViewSpec interface are underspecified -- RAISED
20:35:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2263
20:38:22 <shepazu> shepazu: we will have to reexamine this in the context of the new SVG DOM API, anyway
20:38:31 <shepazu> Resolution: defer to SVG 2.0
20:38:40 <shepazu> issue-2294?
20:38:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-2294 -- Adding an animated length attribute into a baseval length list -- RAISED
20:38:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2294
20:39:56 <shepazu> jwatt: I was going to write an email about this...
20:40:25 <shepazu> ... maybe we need some custom error about removing items from the original list (readonly)
20:40:47 <shepazu> ... maybe we should have a "copy" method?
20:41:04 <shepazu> ... let's address this in the new DOM API
20:41:15 <shepazu> Resolution: move to SVG 2.0
20:41:22 <shepazu> issue-2299?
20:41:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-2299 -- Text on a path layout rules unclear wrt startpoint-on-the-path and text-anchor -- RAISED
20:41:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2299
20:42:13 <shepazu> ChrisL: I don't think they are contradictory, they seem to be saying the same thing in different ways
20:42:37 <shepazu> ... it's using "start point" for 2 different things...
20:43:03 <shepazu> ... it's talking about shifting the initial start point
20:43:37 <shepazu> ed: it's ambiguous enough that implementations all do different things
20:43:55 <shepazu> ... but I'm not sure it's critical for SVG 1.1 2nd ed.
20:47:33 <shepazu> shepazu: I want this fixed because it's important... could we start a 3rd edition errata in addition to SVG 2.0?
20:47:49 <shepazu> ChrisL: we could do... we need to test all of this better, too
20:49:43 <shepazu> ed: one way to start off easy is to have a straight line as the textPath for tests that describe the start point
20:49:48 <shepazu> ChrisL: good idea
20:51:22 <shepazu> resolution: keep as SVG 1.1 3rd edition errata, but duplicate for SVG 2.0, to make sure it's addressed in both
20:52:21 <shepazu> issue-2301?
20:52:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-2301 -- Text on a path layout rules unclear wrt startpoint-on-the-path and text-anchor (svg2) -- RAISED
20:52:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2301
20:53:18 <shepazu> ed: 23 pending actions
20:53:29 <shepazu> s23 pending actions/23 pending actions left
20:53:37 <shepazu> s/23 pending actions/23 pending actions left
20:53:58 <shepazu> s/23 pending actions/23 pending actions left/g
20:54:14 <shepazu> action-2077?
20:54:14 <trackbot> ACTION-2077 -- Erik Dahlström to test implementations for percentage values in clipPath, etc. -- due 2008-07-03 -- OPEN
20:54:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2077
20:54:44 <shepazu> action-2203?
20:54:44 <trackbot> ACTION-2203 -- Doug Schepers to add to the 1.1 Full errata that the initial value for the root overflow property is scroll rather than hidden -- due 2008-09-30 -- OPEN
20:54:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2203
20:55:34 <shepazu> action-2404?
20:55:35 <trackbot> ACTION-2404 -- Doug Schepers to add errata item for root overflow -- due 2009-01-22 -- CLOSED
20:55:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2404
20:57:59 <shepazu> Topic: list activity
20:58:50 <shepazu> ed: discussion about transforms, getIntersectionList, DOM constructors, image clarification, z-index
20:59:35 <shepazu> ChrisL: I wonder if alex addressed this to their satisfaction?
20:59:46 <shepazu> ... a good example might help
21:00:44 <ChrisL> suppose a filter brings in a greyscale image with feimage, then we do an rgb fecomponenttransfer. that should work
21:00:50 <ChrisL> it wont give an error
21:01:07 <ChrisL> so that is what "as it its promoted to RGBA" means
21:01:14 <shepazu> ChrisL: when we say, "implement as if...", then things that fall out of the model still have to work
21:02:14 <shepazu> ChrisL: action to respond to image clarification email with concrete example
21:02:35 <shepazu> Action: ChrisL to respond to image clarification email with concrete example
21:02:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2698 - Respond to image clarification email with concrete example [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-11-30].
21:03:31 <shepazu> ed: anthony addressed the transforms issues
21:04:31 <shepazu> ed: Dr. Olaf pointed to his older email... did we address this?
21:04:36 <shepazu> anthony: not sure
21:06:11 <shepazu> ChrisL: Dr. Olaf raised a good point, CSS didn't consider animation when they specified angles, which need to be normalized, and since they now have animation this affects them too... we should raise this with the CSS WG
21:08:29 <shepazu> anthony: I'll take a crack at replying to Dr. Olaf
21:11:12 <shepazu> Topic: DOM constructors
21:11:34 <anthony> scribe: anthony
21:11:58 <anthony> DS: Just started off with basically describing
21:12:05 <anthony> ... what we had proposed
21:12:14 <anthony> ... because he didn't read the proposal page
21:12:25 <anthony> ... just ready the 'what sort of problems we have' page
21:13:07 <anthony> ... he also proposed that we use the innerHTML method for larger document fragments
21:13:40 <anthony> ... and Brois said that innerHTML has been optimised because browsers have to parse already
21:13:47 <anthony> ... so that's one thing they optermise for
21:14:40 <anthony> ... Boris seemed to be have mixed responses about sending in a property tag for element constructors would help the performance
21:15:00 <shepazu> s/property tag/property bag object/
21:16:03 <anthony> ... I definitely under the impression from taking to implementers that setting attributes individually was a huge performance hit
21:16:53 <shepazu> ChrisL: if it's done right, it should be a performance gain, and is never a performance hit
21:16:57 <anthony> CL: It can be an atomic operation
21:17:07 <shepazu> shepazu: and it's much nicer for authoring
21:17:07 <anthony> DS: It's much nicer for authors
21:18:25 <shepazu> shepazu: Jeff may not have considered the issue of the namespace of an element when he criticized using createElement as an element method
21:19:31 <shepazu> shepazu: jwatt, what's your impression?
21:20:11 <shepazu> jwatt: boris seemed to refute some of the performance points that Jeff pointed to
21:20:33 <shepazu> ... but it's about ease of authoring, not so much performance
21:21:09 <shepazu> ... boris says it's hard to predict performance
21:21:14 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#html-fragment-parsing-algorithm
21:21:58 <shepazu> ed: have we verified that innerHTML would work with SVG?
21:21:59 <shepazu> ... I'm reading it, and it doesn't seem great for SVG
21:22:38 <shepazu> jwatt: I can test it, don't know offhand
21:23:06 <shepazu> action: jwatt  to test innerHTML for applicability to SVG
21:23:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2699 -  to test innerHTML for applicability to SVG [on Jonathan Watt - due 2009-11-30].
21:24:54 <shepazu> shepazu: speaking of this, what's the standard way of doing ASV's printNode?
21:25:08 <shepazu> jwatt: I have a wrapper
21:25:14 <jwatt> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/wrappers.js
21:25:41 <shepazu> ed: maybe for innerHTML, it needs to be put into the foreign-content mode...
21:26:01 <shepazu> ... otherwise you have to wrap everything in <svg>
21:28:13 <ChrisL> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.3a1pre) Gecko/20091122 Minefield/3.7a1pre
21:28:14 <ed> <html><svg id="foo">...</svg><script>$("foo").innerHTML="<rect width='100' height='100' fill='green'/></html>
21:29:58 <shepazu> ed: anything that conflicts with HTML element names might cause a problem
21:33:20 <ed> so test <font>, <video>, <audio>, <textArea>... any others?
21:34:09 <shepazu> jwatt: about the F2F... I'm probably not coming
21:34:39 <shepazu> ... mozilla thinks 4 meetings a year is too frequent
21:35:06 <shepazu> shepazu: actually, I think it's 3 meetings a year now
21:37:28 <shepazu> shepazu: maybe we should examine who would be able to attend
21:37:51 <shepazu> ed: what about relocating it?
21:46:33 <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
21:46:33 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:46:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ed, Shepazu, jwatt, Chris_Lilley, [IPcaller], anthony
21:46:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:46:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-minutes.html trackbot
21:46:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:46:35 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-actions.rdf :
21:46:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisL to make funcURI consistent, and update tests [1]
21:46:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-irc#T20-34-08
21:46:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisL to respond to image clarification email with concrete example [2]
21:46:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-irc#T21-02-35
21:46:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jwatt  to test innerHTML for applicability to SVG [3]
21:46:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/23-svg-irc#T21-23-06
21:46:36 <Zakim> -Chris_Lilley
21:46:40 <Zakim> -ed
21:46:44 <Zakim> -jwatt