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20:00:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:00:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:30 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:30 <trackbot> Date: 19 November 2009
20:01:36 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has now started
20:01:43 <Zakim> +??P2
20:01:52 <ed> Zakim, ?? is me
20:01:52 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:02:16 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:03:35 <Zakim> +??P3
20:03:42 <jwatt> jwatt has joined #svg
20:04:15 <jwatt> Zakim, who's here?
20:04:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, Shepazu, ??P3
20:04:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see jwatt, Zakim, RRSAgent, ed, karl, anthony, shepazu, trackbot, ed_work, eseidelDesk
20:04:22 <jwatt> Zakim, ?? is me
20:04:22 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
20:07:35 <Zakim> +??P4
20:07:42 <anthony> Zakim, ??P4 is me
20:07:42 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:08:14 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009OctDec/0041.html
20:08:49 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Roadmap
20:08:58 <jwatt> Scribe: Jonathan Watt
20:09:02 <jwatt> scribenick: jwatt
20:09:48 <jwatt> Topic: Roadmap
20:09:50 <jwatt> DS: the table is really out of date
20:12:57 <jwatt> AG: Compositing could go to LC in Feb/Mar I think
20:15:16 <jwatt> DS: how about May for CR then?
20:15:32 <jwatt> ED: the earlier there's a testsuite the better
20:17:16 <jwatt> DS: PR Aug; Rec Sep
20:17:21 <jwatt> AG: sounds fine
20:17:36 <jwatt> ED: so Filters
20:18:33 <jwatt> ED: I'd prefer to have a couple more drafts before going to LC
20:18:51 <jwatt> ...especially since i'd like to put in the CSS canned filters, and perhaps new syntax as well
20:19:01 <jwatt> ...probably a few more primitives
20:20:06 <jwatt> JW: I'd like to revisit the need for authors to specify filter regions, and filterRes
20:20:18 <jwatt> ED: I would like to resolve that too
20:20:54 <jwatt> ED: I think Sep for LC
20:21:01 <jwatt> DS: I think that's pretty far away
20:23:43 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
20:23:51 <anthony> scribenick: anthony
20:24:30 <anthony> DS: Let's say June 2010 for Use Case & Requirements for Layout
20:24:41 <anthony> ... He'd probably be working on the spec at the same time
20:24:49 <anthony> ... so let's say July 2010
20:24:58 <anthony> ... for FPWD
20:25:06 <anthony> ... then LC October
20:25:19 <anthony> .... that would put CR in December
20:25:39 <anthony> ... and PR in June 2011
20:27:08 <anthony> ... Masking and Clipping?
20:27:13 <anthony> AG: Who is doing that anyway?
20:27:26 <anthony> DS: Emmons
20:27:55 <anthony> ED: It's basically dealing with coordinate systems
20:28:22 <anthony> DS: don't really need a lot of changes
20:28:26 <ed> we have some issues raised on masks/clippaths, we should address those... and pinnedclip maybe
20:28:39 <anthony> ... I'm going to give it the same time line as Compositing
20:29:19 <ed> ...and perhaps use of clip/mask in CSS/HTML
20:29:55 <anthony> ED: Not convinced we need a separate module for it
20:30:04 <anthony> DS: You mean do it as part of SVG 2.0 instead?
20:30:14 <anthony> ED: Yeah, although it might be good for other specs
20:30:32 <anthony> DS: Media Access Events is the same, it's pretty much done
20:30:48 <anthony> ... just need someone to finish it
20:31:03 <anthony> ... Paint Servers
20:31:17 <anthony> ... I'm going to put that on the same time line as filters
20:31:26 <anthony> ... what do you think?
20:31:45 <anthony> ED: Who is the editor for that?
20:31:53 <anthony> DS: I would say Chris
20:32:03 <anthony> ED: The guy from Inkscape
20:34:06 <anthony> DS: Print spec
20:34:22 <anthony> AG: Print will become Colour Management and Pagination
20:34:33 <anthony> DS: I couldn't find a Pagination spec
20:34:40 <anthony> AG: Currently there is none
20:34:53 <anthony> ED: That line needs to be split up
20:35:06 <anthony> ... into two lines
20:37:05 <anthony> DS: It went to LC in September?
20:37:10 <anthony> AG: Yes, something like that
20:37:26 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGColor12/
20:37:52 <anthony> ED: Looks like FPWD
20:38:13 <anthony> DS: And it was October
20:38:32 <anthony> ... shouldn't it be called Colour Management?
20:40:08 <anthony> AG: Yeah you're right
20:40:14 <anthony> DS: Chris didn't think that there was that much more to do on the spec
20:40:37 <anthony> ... try to get Colour Management to LC in December
20:41:34 <anthony> ... For pagination I'm going to say May 2010 for FPWD
20:41:40 <anthony> ... LC December 2010
20:42:09 <anthony> ... CR March 2011
20:42:40 <anthony> ... PR October 2011
20:42:47 <anthony> ... Rec December 2011
20:44:31 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG-Transforms/
20:45:17 <ed> 20 March 2009
20:45:25 <ed> FPWD
20:47:14 <anthony> DS: Transformations, LC in July
20:47:49 <anthony> JW: If we combine with CSS is that a new document?
20:49:09 <anthony> AG: October 2010 CR
20:49:41 <anthony> DS: May, June for Rec?
20:49:43 <anthony> AG: Ok
20:50:26 <anthony> DS: Vector Effects
20:50:36 <anthony> ... I'm going to move those dates all back 1 year
20:51:18 <anthony> JW: Should turn the dates into links to specs
20:51:43 <anthony> ... Mozilla will implement Vector Effects, ED are you happy with that?
20:52:10 <anthony> ED: Not sure exactly how cheap some of the operations are
20:52:33 <anthony> DS: Will Firefox implement this?
20:54:03 <anthony> JW: The reason I ask is stroking a stroke is something unknown to current rendering libraries
20:54:36 <anthony> s/Mozilla will/do you think we can/
20:55:10 <anthony> JW: I think it's going to be harder to implement than it looks
20:55:26 <anthony> DS: The feature set probably wont change that much
20:55:42 <anthony> ... but the basic syntax and what it allows you to do seems pretty straight forward to me
20:55:57 <anthony> ... do we think the language itself is going to change?
20:56:26 <anthony> ... the process allows us to go to CR
20:56:34 <anthony> ... and if we need to change it then go back to LC
21:00:20 <anthony> ED: Maybe push that back a bit mre
21:00:26 <anthony> s/mre/more/
21:00:33 <anthony> ... I'd say the same time as filters
21:00:45 <anthony> DS: Webfonts
21:00:55 <anthony> ED: Not sure what that is about really
21:01:01 <anthony> DS: I'm going to say move that to CSS
21:01:12 <anthony> ED: Chris will probably know more about that
21:04:11 <anthony> DS: SVG 2.0 moving all the dates to 2011
21:07:06 <anthony> Topic: IntersectionList
21:07:10 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0015.html
21:07:27 <anthony> ED: That's the start of the thread and it goes on and on and on and on and on
21:08:14 <anthony> ... the node lists are static
21:08:26 <anthony> ... and that's what we say in the 2nd edition spec
21:08:45 <anthony> ... the second parameter to the method is it the root of the subtree to search or is it something else?
21:08:54 <anthony> ... I'm pretty sure Opera implemented to be the subtree
21:09:08 <anthony> ... the results are limited to be the children of the subtree element
21:09:17 <anthony> DS: That seems kind of strange to me
21:09:29 <anthony> JW: Limiting it to the subtree?
21:09:32 <anthony> DS: Yes
21:09:35 <anthony> JW: Why?
21:09:43 <anthony> DS: Where is it likely that someone will use these things
21:10:07 <anthony> ... and I just don't see where moving it to a subtree makes sense
21:10:15 <anthony> ... from a performance stand point it makes sense
21:10:26 <anthony> ... but I don't know why someone would want to limit it to a subtree
21:10:35 <anthony> JW: So a joining area of a drawing application
21:10:39 <ed> s/and it goes on and on and on and on and on//
21:10:48 <anthony> ... so if can restrict it
21:10:58 <anthony> ... it makes sense
21:11:04 <anthony> DS: Ok yeah, you're right
21:11:42 <anthony> ED: Do you think it's a good idea to clarify it to be the subtree root?
21:12:05 <anthony> DS: Which bit are saying? getIntersectionList?
21:12:06 <anthony> ED: Yes
21:12:14 <anthony> DS: It doesn't say that
21:12:44 <anthony> JW: I don't see it makes sense any other way than what Opera has done
21:12:46 <ed> [[referenceElement -- If not null, then only return elements whose drawing order has them below the given reference element.]]
21:12:54 <anthony> DS: There are two interpretations of it
21:13:06 <anthony> ... I've never seen 'below' to define a subtree
21:13:23 <anthony> ... I think what they meant in the spec is rendering order
21:13:37 <anthony> JW: I think rendering order doesn't make sense and no one has done that
21:13:47 <anthony> DS: One thing you mentioned which is important
21:13:53 <anthony> ... is collision dectection
21:14:11 <anthony> s/dectection/detection/
21:15:10 <anthony> ED: Collision detection is pretty common for games
21:15:36 <anthony> JW: In some 3D games I've seen, the character goes halfway through an object before the collision is detected
21:15:45 <anthony> ... in that case they are not using the geometry
21:16:22 <anthony> ED: Do we want to resolve that it is a subtree
21:16:30 <anthony> DS: It is clearly subtree
21:16:35 <anthony> ... that is not the intent of 1.1
21:16:41 <anthony> .... we can change it for 2.0
21:16:47 <anthony> ED: I don't agree witht hat
21:16:56 <anthony> s/witht hat/with that/
21:17:01 <anthony> ... that's not the way I read it
21:17:09 <anthony> DS: ASV6 did it the way I described
21:17:28 <anthony> ... I don't mind us changing it, I don't think that was the original intent
21:17:46 <anthony> ... and I'm not sure form a process point of view if we can change it that way
21:17:57 <anthony> ED: It is ambiguous at the moment
21:18:08 <anthony> ... what we have not is not interoperable at the moment
21:19:01 <anthony> JW: I'd have to side with DS about what it means
21:19:13 <anthony> ... but what they describe it is difficult to implement
21:19:54 <anthony> ... We are not doing any more errata for 2nd Edition are we?
21:20:02 <anthony> ED: I wouldn't mind putting something in
21:20:09 <anthony> ... we already have test cases
21:20:35 <anthony> DS: We could ask Chris, JF or Dino if we want to clarify
21:21:46 <anthony> DS: In line with JW was saying, we should just define what we think is correct
21:22:59 <anthony> ... the way it's defined in 1.1 is not the we want people to do it anyway
21:23:05 <anthony> ... let's just start over
21:23:15 <anthony> ... and not fix the mistakes of the past
21:23:34 <anthony> ... at some point we have to move on
21:26:00 <anthony> ED: Batik probably does it as well
21:26:22 <anthony> ... since CM implemented it
21:26:55 <ed> s/implemented/wrote a test (that I'm reviewing) for/ 
21:31:56 <anthony> ... If you think it's not worth it and if you're willing to take the risk of different interpretations of it
21:32:04 <anthony> DS: What if put the question to the list?
21:32:54 <anthony> JW: I don't see any reason to restrict to a rect. I'd push for a new API
21:33:19 <anthony> ... maybe getIntersectionList could stay there and call into the more complex one
21:34:05 <anthony> ED: People on the list seem to prefer the subtree model
21:34:28 <anthony> DS: I think it's a waste of time to fix stuff that's broken from the start
21:34:46 <anthony> JW: ED is going to do it. Then he can get on with reviewing tests
21:36:23 <anthony> DS: Are you the same as Batik on tests?
21:36:30 <anthony> ED: Not all of them
21:37:13 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to Investigate getIntersectionList and add clarification to the specification
21:37:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2695 - Investigate getIntersectionList and add clarification to the specification [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-11-26].
21:38:45 <anthony> Topic: Deprecating CSS Value
21:38:51 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0054.html
21:39:03 <anthony> ED: Don't know if there is anything we can do
21:39:08 <jwatt> s/CSS Value/CSSValue/
21:39:20 <anthony> ... but we could put some informative note in the 1.1 specification
21:39:29 <anthony> ... saying don't use this
21:39:33 <anthony> ... or deprecate it
21:39:39 <anthony> DS: Not sure if you can deprecate it
21:39:54 <anthony> ED: So an informative note
21:40:03 <anthony> ... it's a bit harder if we want to remove stuff I guess
21:40:23 <anthony> ... I don't think any user agent implemented that to a large degree
21:40:47 <anthony> ... Opera did for colour and it was hard
21:40:58 <anthony> DS: Actually maybe we should deprecate it
21:41:03 <anthony> ... then we don't have to test it
21:41:12 <ed> s/hard/hard to use/
21:41:33 <anthony> ED: Is it possible for us to do that?
21:41:52 <anthony> ... what does it mean, it doesn't remove it?
21:42:14 <anthony> DS: Discourage people from using it and tells them we will remove it later
21:42:53 <ed> deprecate SVGStylable.getPresentationAttribute and SVGPaint, SVGColor (which inherit from CSSValue)
21:44:10 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to Deprecate SVGStylable.getPresentationAttribute and SVGPaint, SVGColor in SVG 1.1 2nd Edition
21:44:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2696 - Deprecate SVGStylable.getPresentationAttribute and SVGPaint, SVGColor in SVG 1.1 2nd Edition [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-11-26].
21:46:03 <anthony> Topic: CSSUnit and Values
21:46:19 <anthony> DS: We will put this off for 2.0
21:46:33 <anthony> RESOLUTION: We will put this off for SVG 2.0
21:46:42 <anthony> ED: We should have an issue for it
21:46:55 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2278 maybe?
21:47:27 <anthony> ... maybe we should raise a new issue
21:49:51 <jwatt> ISSUE-2300
21:49:53 <jwatt> btw
21:49:59 <Zakim> -anthony
21:50:05 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:50:11 <Zakim> -ed
21:50:13 <Zakim> -jwatt
21:50:15 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has ended
21:50:16 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, Shepazu, jwatt, anthony
21:50:28 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:50:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
21:50:37 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:50:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-svg-minutes.html anthony
22:50:34 <jwatt> shepazu: if you send out that email to find out what the SVG-oldies reasoning was for making the second arg for getIntersectionList be paint order, can you CC me?