IRC log of dap on 2009-11-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:51 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dap

14:44:51 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/18-dap-irc

14:44:53 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:44:53 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #dap

14:44:55 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be DAP

14:44:55 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes

14:44:56 [trackbot]

Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference

14:44:56 [trackbot]

Date: 18 November 2009

14:47:58 [dom]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0116.html

14:48:02 [dom]

Chair: Robin, Frederick

14:49:30 [marengo]

marengo has joined #dap

14:52:40 [fhirsch]

Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch

14:52:51 [fhirsch]

Present: Frederick_Hirsch

14:54:18 [drogersuk]

drogersuk has joined #dap

14:54:29 [Zakim]

UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started

14:54:36 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:54:39 [drogersuk]

present+ David_Rogers

14:54:53 [marengo]

Present+ Marco_Marengo

14:55:15 [Zakim]

+??P19

14:55:37 [drogersuk]

zakim, +??P19 is drogersuk

14:55:37 [Zakim]

sorry, drogersuk, I do not recognize a party named '+??P19'

14:55:46 [Zakim]

+??P20

14:56:00 [fhirsch]

zakim, ??P20 is fhirsch

14:56:01 [Zakim]

+fhirsch; got it

14:56:25 [drogersuk]

zakim, ??P19 is drogersuk

14:56:25 [Zakim]

+drogersuk; got it

14:56:46 [Kangchan]

Present+ Kangchan_Lee

14:56:56 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

14:57:00 [fhirsch]

zakim, [IPcaller] is marengo

14:57:01 [Zakim]

sorry, fhirsch, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'

14:57:20 [marengo]

i'm not [IPCaller]

14:57:25 [dom]

Present: DomHazaelMassieux

14:57:30 [Zakim]

+AnssiK

14:57:33 [darobin]

darobin has joined #dap

14:57:39 [Zakim]

+ +1.781.534.aaaa

14:58:02 [Zakim]

+Bryan_Sullivan

14:58:08 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:58:18 [lgombos]

Present+ Laszlo_Gombos

14:58:45 [darobin]

Present+ Robin_Berjon

14:58:46 [wonsuk]

zakim, [IPcaller] is wonsuk

14:58:47 [Zakim]

+wonsuk; got it

14:58:47 [AnssiK]

Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen

14:59:10 [fhirsch]

zakim, aaaa is lgombos

14:59:10 [Zakim]

+lgombos; got it

14:59:21 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:59:56 [Zakim]

+ +358.504.86aabb

15:00:24 [ilkka]

+Present Ilkka_Oksanen

15:00:35 [BryanSullivan]

+present BryanSullivan

15:00:44 [Suresh]

Suresh has joined #dap

15:00:49 [Claes]

Claes has joined #dap

15:00:52 [Zakim]

+maxf

15:00:57 [Suresh]

Present+ Suresh Chitturi

15:01:00 [BryanSullivan]

Present+ BryanSullivan

15:01:01 [Zakim]

+dom

15:01:14 [maxf]

Present+ Max_Froumentin

15:02:13 [marcin]

marcin has joined #dap

15:02:34 [marcin]

Present+ Marcin_Hanclik

15:02:45 [Zakim]

+Claes

15:03:07 [Zakim]

+richt

15:03:12 [Dzung_Tran]

Dzung_Tran has joined #dap

15:03:18 [Dzung_Tran]

Present+ Dzung_Tran

15:03:24 [Zakim]

+ +49.208.829.0.aacc

15:03:37 [marcin]

Zakim, aacc is marcin

15:03:37 [Zakim]

+marcin; got it

15:03:43 [richt]

richt has joined #dap

15:03:43 [Claes]

Present+ Claes_Nilsson

15:03:50 [richt]

Present+ Richard_Tibbett

15:03:52 [dom]

Regrets: Thomas_Roessler

15:04:08 [dom]

zakim, who's on the call?

15:04:08 [Zakim]

On the phone I see drogersuk, fhirsch, AnssiK (muted), lgombos, Bryan_Sullivan, wonsuk, darobin, ilkka, maxf, dom, Claes, richt, marcin

15:05:01 [Zakim]

+arve

15:05:09 [arve]

arve has joined #dap

15:05:18 [Laura_Arribas]

Laura_Arribas has joined #dap

15:05:40 [darobin]

Scribe: Arve

15:05:45 [darobin]

ScribeNick: arve

15:05:48 [fjh]

fjh has joined #dap

15:05:57 [Laura_Arribas]

Present+ Laura_Arribas

15:06:02 [arve]

Zakim, who is here

15:06:03 [Zakim]

arve, you need to end that query with '?'

15:06:05 [arve]

Zakim, who is here?

15:06:05 [Zakim]

On the phone I see drogersuk, fhirsch, AnssiK (muted), lgombos, Bryan_Sullivan, wonsuk, darobin, ilkka, maxf, dom, Claes, richt, marcin, arve

15:06:07 [Zakim]

On IRC I see fjh, Laura_Arribas, arve, richt, Dzung_Tran, marcin, Claes, Suresh, darobin, drogersuk, marengo, Zakim, RRSAgent, hendry, MoZ, Kangchan, paddy, fhirsch, AnssiK,

15:06:09 [Zakim]

... BryanSullivan, wonsuk, tlr, maxf, arg, shepazu, trackbot, lgombos, ilkka, dom

15:06:12 [dom]

zakim, who's noisy?

15:06:15 [Zakim]

+ +1.408.216.aadd

15:06:23 [Zakim]

dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P0 (38%), arve (15%), fhirsch (18%), darobin (12%), maxf (17%)

15:06:29 [Suresh]

Suresh just joined the bridge

15:06:37 [Zakim]

+ +7.775.41.aaee

15:06:41 [dom]

zakim, aadd is suresh

15:06:41 [Zakim]

+suresh; got it

15:06:53 [dom]

zakim, who's on the call?

15:06:53 [Zakim]

On the phone I see drogersuk, fhirsch, AnssiK (muted), lgombos, Bryan_Sullivan, wonsuk, darobin, ilkka, maxf, dom, Claes, richt, marcin, arve, suresh, +7.775.41.aaee

15:06:59 [dom]

zakim, mute arve

15:06:59 [Zakim]

arve should now be muted

15:07:01 [dom]

zakim, mute maxf

15:07:01 [Zakim]

maxf should now be muted

15:07:16 [Zakim]

+marengo

15:07:25 [dom]

zakim, mute suresh

15:07:25 [Zakim]

suresh should now be muted

15:07:28 [Zakim]

+Ingmar_Kliche

15:07:39 [Laura_Arribas]

Zakim, +7.775.41.aaee is Laura_Arribas

15:07:39 [Zakim]

+Laura_Arribas; got it

15:08:13 [arve]

Yes

15:08:31 [arve]

Topic: Administrativa

15:08:43 [dom]

ack me

15:08:48 [fhirsch]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0026.html

15:09:06 [ingmar]

ingmar has joined #dap

15:09:25 [ingmar]

Present+ Ingmar_Kliche

15:09:26 [arve]

fhirsch: Geolocation WG is taking on API for orientation and acceleration data from device

15:09:34 [arve]

q+

15:09:39 [arve]

zakim, unmute

15:09:39 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'unmute', arve

15:09:42 [arve]

zakim, unmute me

15:09:42 [Zakim]

arve should no longer be muted

15:09:43 [fhirsch]

ack arve

15:10:01 [maxf]

arve: does it mean that that item won't be covered by this WG?

15:10:19 [dom]

zakim, who's noisy?

15:10:19 [Suresh]

q+

15:10:24 [BryanSullivan]

"Acceleration" is not the same as "accelerometer", correct?

15:10:28 [BryanSullivan]

q+

15:10:29 [maxf]

robin: yes

15:10:30 [fhirsch]

ack Suresh

15:10:33 [Zakim]

dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: arve (9%), darobin (15%)

15:10:49 [Suresh]

zakim, unmute me

15:10:49 [Zakim]

suresh was not muted, Suresh

15:10:51 [nwidell]

nwidell has joined #dap

15:10:52 [dom]

I think Acceleration is the same as accelerometer

15:10:58 [arve]

robin: This WG will not take on these item

15:10:59 [drogersuk]

q+

15:11:23 [dom]

Regrets+ Paddy_Byers

15:11:27 [BryanSullivan]

Accelerometer should be outside their scope

15:12:10 [Dzung_Tran]

Did someone pass along the Compass spec that I did to the Geolocation WG?

15:12:49 [fhirsch]

q?

15:12:55 [fhirsch]

ack BryanSullivan

15:12:58 [darobin]

q+ to point out that this is a good reason to do anything related to policy outside of the API specs

15:13:01 [arve]

suresh: we need to find a way to handle overlap with other groups

15:13:01 [Zakim]

+ +46.1.07.15.aaff

15:13:31 [fhirsch]

q+

15:13:43 [arve]

BryanSullivan: Accelerometer is not the same as acceleration

15:13:52 [BryanSullivan]

Accelerometer is in general an example issue for sensor API's - GeoLocation is a special case.

15:13:59 [fhirsch]

q?

15:14:00 [arve]

we should be careful about geolocation wg expanding their scope

15:14:04 [fhirsch]

ack drogersk

15:14:05 [darobin]

q+ to point out that we've already resolved that "general sensors" is future work

15:14:08 [fhirsch]

ack drogersuk

15:14:14 [BryanSullivan]

q-

15:14:21 [dom]

zakim, mute me

15:14:21 [Zakim]

dom should now be muted

15:14:57 [arve]

drogersuk: How do we logically separate accelerometer and acceleration data?

15:15:01 [Suresh]

We need find a way to integrate other "device APIs" work (e.g. geo-location, accelorometer) in to DAP WG deliverables or at the minimum reference them

15:15:31 [dom]

[as a point of order, I think people would better react on announcements when they're made on the list, rather than waiting for the call to make their points]

15:15:55 [fhirsch]

q?

15:16:01 [darobin]

ack

15:16:01 [fhirsch]

ack darobin

15:16:01 [Zakim]

darobin, you wanted to point out that this is a good reason to do anything related to policy outside of the API specs and to point out that we've already resolved that "general

15:16:04 [Zakim]

... sensors" is future work

15:16:42 [drogersuk]

my point doesn't seem to have been minuted:

15:16:43 [maxf]

q+ to say that geolocation WG does "orientation" independently of how you measure it

15:17:22 [maxf]

q-

15:17:27 [drogersuk]

drogersuk: We need to look at the clear logical separations between functionality - e.g. geolocation and accelerometer, they are probably independent functions

15:18:09 [fhirsch]

ack fhirsch

15:18:11 [nwidell]

Present+ Niklas_Widell

15:19:10 [drogersuk]

q+

15:19:31 [fhirsch]

ack drogersuk

15:19:35 [darobin]

RB: to Suresh's point, I would like to say that we should simply do policy orthogonally from APIs so that we can also cover other WGs' APIs

15:20:35 [darobin]

RB: to Bryan's I would like to point out that we're not working on generic sensors, so there's no chartered requirements to prevent Geo from doing Accelerometer — if they have the bandwidth then by all means we should be happy to have less to do

15:20:42 [maxf]

Geolocation WG's action item where draft on "orientation and acceleration" is proposed: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-geolocation-minutes.html#action05

15:20:57 [marcin]

+1 to orthogonality

15:21:14 [Suresh]

I agree with what Robin just said in separating the policy from APIs

15:21:31 [dom]

[I think that "FUture APIs are not considered a priority" is a sufficient statement to make to clarify the situation]

15:21:42 [darobin]

+1 to dom

15:22:10 [marcin]

+1 to dom & darobin

15:22:16 [arve]

+1 to dom

15:22:18 [drogersuk]

we don't want to discourage people from creating new things though

15:22:29 [drogersuk]

it just won't be discussed as it is not in charter

15:22:55 [marcin]

specifying policy for existing APIs will be a good exercise for the future APIs

15:23:53 [fhirsch]

F2F Scheduling

15:24:00 [arve]

ACTION: dom will update home page to reflect "Future apis are not a priority"

15:24:00 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-61 - Will update home page to reflect "Future apis are not a priority" [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2009-11-25].

15:24:05 [dom]

zakim, mute arve

15:24:05 [Zakim]

arve should now be muted

15:24:15 [dom]

ack me

15:24:20 [fhirsch]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2009Nov/0011.html

15:24:41 [arve]

topic: f2f

15:25:04 [fhirsch]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43696/prague-f2f-dates/results

15:25:34 [Zakim]

+ +0777183aagg

15:25:40 [Zakim]

-drogersuk

15:26:03 [dom]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: next WG F2F in Prague on March 16 to 18

15:26:12 [arve]

going once

15:26:16 [arve]

going twice

15:26:23 [arve]

zakim, unmute me

15:26:23 [Zakim]

arve should no longer be muted

15:26:50 [dom]

zakim, aagg is drogersuk

15:26:50 [Zakim]

+drogersuk; got it

15:27:15 [arve]

drogersuk: 16-18 might collide with SXSW for some members

15:27:33 [dom]

zakim, mute arve

15:27:33 [Zakim]

arve should now be muted

15:27:39 [richt]

I may go to SXSW but it is not yet confirmed

15:28:08 [arve]

drogersuk: need to avoid overlap with omtp meeting, there seems to be none

15:28:44 [arve]

darobin: only overlap with SXSW currently seems to be drogersuk

15:29:02 [arve]

drogersuk: there will be noe overlap with OMTP

15:29:38 [dom]

ack me

15:30:39 [dom]

zakim, mute me

15:30:39 [Zakim]

dom should now be muted

15:31:10 [arve]

dom: april an alternative

15:31:19 [arve]

arve: would prefer march

15:31:25 [fhirsch]

prefer march

15:31:41 [darobin]

drogersuk: OMTP are always happy to host in London

15:31:41 [arve]

fhirsch: would propose resolution

15:32:01 [dom]

ack me

15:32:14 [darobin]

ACTION: Robin to contact Prague uni to ask if we can meet on 16-18/03

15:32:14 [wonsuk]

+1 for March

15:32:14 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-62 - Contact Prague uni to ask if we can meet on 16-18/03 [on Robin Berjon - due 2009-11-25].

15:32:31 [dom]

zakim, mute me

15:32:31 [Zakim]

dom should now be muted

15:32:34 [dom]

zakim, mute arve

15:32:34 [Zakim]

arve should now be muted

15:32:50 [arve]

RESOLUTION: Meeting date set to 16-18/03 2010

15:33:13 [arve]

fhirsch: Is the meeting 2.5 days or 3?

15:33:22 [arve]

+1 to 2.5

15:33:29 [drogersuk]

+1

15:33:33 [Claes]

+1 for 2.5

15:33:38 [wonsuk]

+1 for 2.5

15:33:45 [maxf]

+1

15:33:47 [Laura_Arribas]

+1 for 2.5

15:33:47 [marengo]

+1 for 2.5

15:34:08 [drogersuk]

lol make it 3.5 then

15:34:18 [darobin]

I think 5.5

15:34:42 [marcin]

0 to 2.5 and/or 3

15:34:49 [AnssiK]

why not 2^2?

15:35:20 [arve]

proposed resolution: meeting will be 2.5 days?

15:36:29 [arve]

RESOLUTION: meeting will be 2.5 days?

15:36:37 [darobin]

RB: we could perhaps start at 11 the first day and finish at 1530 the last day

15:36:51 [dom]

s/days?/days/

15:36:53 [arve]

topic: minutes

15:37:18 [dom]

ack me

15:37:20 [arve]

fhirsch: any objections to approving minutes from last meeting

15:38:10 [darobin]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/#roadmap

15:38:26 [dom]

zakim, mute me

15:38:26 [Zakim]

dom should now be muted

15:38:35 [fhirsch]

Policy Requirements Editors Draft updated

15:38:50 [arve]

fhirsch: please review document

15:38:55 [fhirsch]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0044.html

15:39:34 [arve]

ACTION: Laura_Arribas to review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0044.html

15:39:34 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Laura_Arribas

15:39:50 [dom]

ACTION: Laura to review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0044.html

15:39:50 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-63 - Review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0044.html [on Laura Arribas - due 2009-11-25].

15:40:00 [Laura_Arribas]

ACTION: Laura Arribas to review last reqs document

15:40:00 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-64 - Arribas to review last reqs document [on Laura Arribas - due 2009-11-25].

15:40:43 [arve]

[?] Contacts API updated to use vCard

15:40:44 [BryanSullivan]

q+

15:40:45 [Zakim]

-ilkka

15:40:49 [fhirsch]

richard notes has updated contacts using vcard, working on security considerations and use cases

15:40:50 [darobin]

richt++

15:41:47 [arve]

topic: policy segment

15:41:54 [arve]

Zakim, unmute me

15:41:54 [Zakim]

arve should no longer be muted

15:41:57 [fhirsch]

Markup for implicit consent

15:42:13 [Suresh]

richard, can you post the link to the contacts API draft, please?

15:42:39 [fhirsch]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0115.html

15:42:45 [richt]

Contacts API Latest Editor's Draft: http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/contacts/Overview.html

15:43:13 [fhirsch]

zakim, unumte maxf

15:43:13 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'unumte maxf', fhirsch

15:43:21 [fhirsch]

zakim, unmute maxf

15:43:21 [Zakim]

maxf should no longer be muted

15:43:39 [maxf]

ok. I'll call back

15:43:47 [maxf]

no

15:43:48 [richt]

regarding the contacts api: you may need to do a refresh or clear cache. I was having problems with the etags (or something) not refreshing the page.

15:43:54 [Zakim]

-maxf

15:44:18 [dom]

Bryan, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Oct/att-0120/minutes-2009-10-07.html#item06 re agreement to publish FPWD

15:44:36 [fhirsch]

action-47?

15:44:36 [trackbot]

ACTION-47 -- Laura Arribas to provide input on trust model and access control model definitions -- due 2009-11-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

15:44:36 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/47

15:44:54 [Zakim]

+ +47.23.69.aahh

15:45:03 [arve]

zakim, aahh is maxf

15:45:03 [Zakim]

+maxf; got it

15:45:59 [arve]

maxf: I had the action item to explore reusing security from file upload control

15:46:04 [nwidell]

zakim, +46.1.07.15.aaff is nwidell

15:46:04 [Zakim]

+nwidell; got it

15:46:05 [arve]

for implicit user consent

15:46:41 [arve]

maxf: the idea was to figure out if model applied to other apis

15:48:39 [arve]

q+

15:48:43 [dom]

+1 on figuring the process to specify possible markup aspects of our APIs as we go

15:49:17 [Suresh]

q+

15:49:36 [arve]

fhirsch: does this apply for widgets and/or webapps?

15:49:43 [arve]

maxf: will investigate

15:49:45 [tlr]

tlr has joined #dap

15:49:52 [darobin]

ack arve

15:50:02 [maxf]

arve: do we have the necessary expertise in the area?

15:50:16 [maxf]

… just as much about usability

15:50:33 [fhirsch]

frederick asks where we define input types, robin notes either in HTML WG or here as appropriate, can do later

15:50:36 [BryanSullivan]

+1 to no "one shoe fits all"

15:50:41 [maxf]

… I would propose relieveing max of his action item and revisit it later

15:50:58 [fhirsch]

need to define input element for each API , part of API definition

15:51:17 [maxf]

… e.g. file system access. There's a lot about making the API usable. … geolocation ...

15:51:23 [fhirsch]

q?

15:51:27 [darobin]

ack BryanSullivan

15:51:29 [fhirsch]

ack BryanSullivan

15:51:31 [Suresh]

i don't believe this model of input="xx" fits all the use cases,

15:51:54 [fhirsch]

ack Suresh

15:52:17 [richt]

agree with suresh but we need use cases in our documents though to justify that.

15:52:21 [BryanSullivan]

q-

15:52:24 [fhirsch]

max, can you please check status of HTML WG and how process would proceed for defining input types

15:52:26 [dom]

[I think the idea behind MaxF's action was to put some ideas on the table that we can take from when looking at specific APIs]

15:53:15 [arve]

Suresh: too early to agree on the topic

15:53:45 [BryanSullivan]

we need to recognize that a UI-based approach will not address all use cases, e.g. to create accessible webapps or that work well in input/output constrained devices.

15:54:13 [maxf]

q+

15:54:16 [arve]

Suresh: are we restricting ourselves to this, or is it just one of many options

15:54:24 [fhirsch]

ack maxf

15:54:27 [arve]

fhirsch: it's one option, not _the_ option

15:54:36 [dom]

[well, the important thing would be to look at specific use cases that wouldn't be addressed by this, so that we understand better the limits of the approach]

15:55:12 [dom]

[I think the people that are skeptic should do that :) ]

15:55:15 [AnssiK]

<input type="foo"> approach is nice in a sense it provides both programmatic (via DOM API) and declarative (ie. markup) mechanisms

15:55:41 [arve]

+1 to darobin's written proposal

15:55:48 [arve]

Zakim, unmute me

15:55:48 [Zakim]

arve should no longer be muted

15:56:18 [fhirsch]

action-47?

15:56:18 [trackbot]

ACTION-47 -- Laura Arribas to provide input on trust model and access control model definitions -- due 2009-11-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

15:56:18 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/47

15:56:22 [Dzung_Tran]

agree with robin, each person who owns their API needs to apply the input/output as you see fit

15:56:48 [dom]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Nov/0128.html Laura's comparison of BONDI/Nokia trust model and access contrl

15:56:57 [dom]

ScribeNick: dom

15:57:38 [dom]

Topic: Comparison between Nokia and BONDI on trust model and access contrl

15:57:45 [dom]

Laura: both approaches are significantly similar

15:58:03 [dom]

... the major difference is that Nokia considers the trust manager and the access manager separately

15:58:17 [dom]

... the access manager makes the final access decision

15:58:46 [dom]

... BONDI has a different architecture — the trust decision is included in the access manager

15:59:08 [darobin]

q?

15:59:22 [dom]

... there are also differences in the policies

15:59:39 [dom]

... Nokia consider 2 polices: trust, and access control

15:59:43 [dom]

s/contrl/control/

16:00:11 [dom]

... BONDI doesn't make that differenciation and includes everything in the same policy

16:00:23 [lgombos]

have a hard limit, have to drop of, sorry

16:00:25 [Zakim]

-lgombos

16:00:44 [dom]

... I would welcome reviews on my summary

16:00:58 [dom]

... I don't have specific ideas on how to integrate in the requirements document

16:01:28 [BryanSullivan]

q+

16:01:30 [dom]

Frederick: I'm not quite sure why BONDI wouldn't consider access control and trust management as separate concerns

16:01:36 [richt]

unfortunately I need to leave the call for another meeting :(

16:01:38 [dom]

... I need to look more closely in the specs

16:01:40 [richt]

I will catch up with the minutes and follow up on the mailing list.

16:01:59 [Dzung_Tran]

So should we review and discuss on the mail list?

16:02:07 [dom]

Laura: it allows to group permissions in different domains

16:02:09 [Zakim]

-richt

16:02:23 [fhirsch]

ack BryanSullivan

16:02:42 [Suresh]

i don't think trust and access control should be treated separately, a decision needs to be take with both into account

16:02:44 [dom]

Bryan: the distinction between trust and policy in Nokia is essentially a way to organize the data (the files)

16:02:53 [dom]

... it's equivalent to what we have in BONDI

16:03:18 [dom]

... they're functionally equivalent, it's just the way the data is organized

16:03:31 [BryanSullivan]

q-

16:04:24 [dom]

Frederick: so Policy Management is out of scope of our work, but it has an impact on our scope of work on policy definitions

16:04:33 [dom]

... I'll look more closely to the BONDI specs

16:04:38 [drogersuk]

q+

16:04:44 [dom]

ack drog

16:05:17 [dom]

David: in BONDI, we've left open policy management

16:06:13 [dom]

... In the discussions on the mailing list, I'm not sure what are the alternatives on defining a policy framework at some point (e.g. for filesystems API)

16:06:32 [dom]

Frederick: could you send an email on that topic?

16:06:34 [BryanSullivan]

q+

16:06:38 [dom]

David: I've done that already

16:06:43 [fhirsch]

ack BryanSullivan

16:06:46 [fhirsch]

q+

16:07:04 [dom]

Bryan: the management of policy (storage, updates, user decision involvement) is out of scope

16:07:21 [dom]

... the definition of a policy file, an expression of a policy as a set of API permissions etc, should be in scope

16:07:34 [dom]

... it's not directly influenced by policy management

16:07:46 [dom]

... it's more dependent on APIs and their security aspects

16:08:04 [fhirsch]

ack fhirsch

16:08:11 [dom]

... if we go deeper into UI considerations, we also need to take into account enabling a similar set of features in a policy-based approach

16:08:29 [dom]

Frederick: I keep coming back to the question of who's writing the policy

16:08:49 [dom]

... if you don't have a model of this, I think it's hard to understand the use cases for the policy framework

16:09:18 [dom]

Topic: APIs

16:09:28 [dom]

Robin: we've discussed making Capture a priority item for the roadmap

16:09:35 [drogersuk]

correction to minutes above: For people who are saying we don't need policy - I don't see the alternative once you've run out all the ways of designing the API securely apart from deferring the decision to the user - I'd like to see input to this because it will help the FileAPI and FileSystem API discussions progress

16:09:46 [dom]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Make capture (Video/Photo/Sound) a priority API

16:09:58 [dom]

RESOLUTION: Make capture (Video/Photo/Sound) a priority API

16:10:25 [dom]

Robin: within the priority documents, I would like to assign action items for people to come up with first editors drafts

16:10:49 [dom]

... we already have one for contacts (Richard), but everyone is welcomed to help

16:11:02 [dom]

... Richard has already started working on Calendar, but would be helpful if he got help

16:11:06 [dom]

... what about messaging?

16:11:24 [dom]

Claes: I'm interested to take on that

16:11:31 [dom]

Robin: Daniel Coloma was also interested

16:11:39 [Dzung_Tran]

I can take on Capture

16:11:48 [fhirsch]

q?

16:11:51 [fhirsch]

q+

16:11:55 [dom]

ACTION: Claes to provide an editors draft of the Messaging API - due in two weeks

16:11:55 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-65 - provide an editors draft of the Messaging API [on Claes Nilsson - due 1970-01-01].

16:11:59 [dom]

ack f

16:12:13 [fhirsch]

q?

16:12:13 [dom]

Frederick: suresh, did you mention you were interested in Calendar?

16:12:23 [dom]

Suresh: yes, but RObin said Richard was working on it

16:12:24 [nwidell]

ACtion-65 should be on nwidell

16:12:27 [dom]

... I'll work with him

16:12:35 [dom]

ACTION-65?

16:12:35 [trackbot]

ACTION-65 -- Claes Nilsson to provide an editors draft of the Messaging API -- due 1970-01-01 -- OPEN

16:12:35 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/65

16:13:09 [dom]

s/Claes/Niklas/

16:13:10 [dom]

s/Claes/Niklas/

16:13:20 [ingmar]

q+

16:13:23 [dom]

Robin: what about Capture? Dzung?

16:13:28 [Dzung_Tran]

Sure

16:13:49 [dom]

ACTION: Dzung to provide an editors draft of the Capture API

16:13:49 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-66 - Provide an editors draft of the Capture API [on Dzung Tran - due 2009-11-25].

16:13:59 [darobin]

ack i

16:14:07 [dom]

ack ingmar

16:14:14 [dom]

Ingmar: I'm happy to help on Capture as well

16:14:42 [dom]

Robin: if any of the editors don't have access to CVS, please contact Dom (but not DOM)

16:14:49 [dom]

RObin: what about FileSystems?

16:15:03 [dom]

... I'll take a stab at it

16:15:15 [dom]

ACTION: Robin to provide a first editors draft of the FileSystems API

16:15:15 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-67 - Provide a first editors draft of the FileSystems API [on Robin Berjon - due 2009-11-25].

16:15:25 [dom]

Bryan: I'll provide feedback on it

16:15:47 [dom]

Robin: We've had sysInfo in CVS for a while

16:15:55 [dom]

... please provide feedback as soon as possible

16:16:00 [dom]

... so that we can decide to move to FPWD

16:16:04 [maxf]

q+

16:16:11 [dom]

Bryan: I've provided input FWIW

16:16:47 [Dzung_Tran]

Sorry what is FWIW?

16:16:57 [dom]

ACTION-58?

16:16:57 [trackbot]

ACTION-58 -- Bryan Sullivan to make a concrete proposal with a vocabulary-based approach to system & events, with a few examples (e.g. battery level) -- due 2009-11-11 -- OPEN

16:16:57 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/58

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16:17:40 [dom]

Bryan: regarding the FWPD of requirements, it wasn't clear to me that we had reached consensus on the content of the document

16:17:53 [dom]

... I'd like to see my set of requirements integrated in the document

16:18:09 [dom]

... it looks like new requirements are impeded to get in the document

16:18:26 [fhirsch]

FPWD simply means to publish draft which is subject to change

16:18:26 [dom]

Robin: as an editor, I was hoping you would provide help in adding your reqs there

16:18:58 [dom]

... put it in the document — that will make it more likely for people to react :)

16:19:16 [fhirsch]

q+

16:19:26 [dom]

David: maybe there should be a separate call for editors to help them set them up

16:20:07 [dom]

Robin: I'm not seeing that people should always put their feedback in the doc; but when not getting feedback, it can be a useful tool

16:20:15 [darobin]

s/seeing/saying/

16:20:20 [dom]

q?

16:20:21 [BryanSullivan]

q-

16:20:27 [fhirsch]

q-

16:20:41 [dom]

Robin: regarding helping editors, it would be helpful to know what the questions are

16:20:56 [dom]

... send me emails, and then I can figure out the best format to help people out

16:20:58 [dom]

ack maxf

16:21:20 [dom]

Maxf: you've listed the 4 priority APIs documents, but also listed capture which is in the "other" category

16:21:29 [dom]

Robin: we've just resolved to make it a priority

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16:21:57 [dom]

MaxF: but what happens with the other ones?

16:22:02 [dom]

... I'm in the editors pool

16:22:21 [dom]

... I could either help on the priority ones, or start working on another one

16:22:40 [dom]

Robin: it's perfectly fine to start on a new one; we might just spend less time discussing it

16:22:52 [dom]

MaxF: who wrote Sys and Events?

16:22:55 [dom]

Robin: Dzung

16:23:03 [dom]

Maxf: I'd like to help with that one

16:23:11 [drogersuk]

just to understand, is this based on any of the input?

16:23:16 [dom]

Robin: please coordinate on the list

16:23:28 [Dzung_Tran]

Sure, no problem

16:23:47 [dom]

David: is SysInfo based on any of the input doc?

16:23:58 [dom]

Robin: I think it's something Dzung came up with

16:24:27 [Dzung_Tran]

Yes, it is based on Nokia, BONDI, ..

16:24:32 [dom]

David: Would Dzung be willing to look at the input to the charter and integrate it in SysInfo

16:24:48 [drogersuk]

ok thanks

16:24:48 [dom]

Robin: Dzung says on IRC it's based on Nokia and BONDI

16:24:54 [dom]

... it probably took them into account

16:25:00 [dom]

David: Ok, just wanted to clarify that point

16:25:04 [Zakim]

-drogersuk

16:25:22 [dom]

[@@@]: I'm seeing a lot of regrets for next week

16:25:29 [dom]

Robin: we might have to cancel

16:25:36 [Dzung_Tran]

I think we should cancel

16:25:36 [Zakim]

-Claes

16:25:40 [dom]

[xxx]: can't we make a decision now?

16:25:53 [dom]

+1 on canceling

16:25:57 [fhirsch]

need to decide in advance so people clan plan

16:26:04 [fhirsch]

s/clan/can

16:26:28 [Dzung_Tran]

Most people in US are out on Thanksgiving holiday

16:26:40 [dom]

RESOLVED: no meeting next week, next meeting on Dec 2

16:26:58 [dom]

i/[@@@]/Topic: Next Meeting/

16:27:02 [Zakim]

-Bryan_Sullivan

16:27:11 [dom]

[adjourned]

16:27:19 [nwidell]

-nwidell

16:27:19 [Dzung_Tran]

l8r

16:27:20 [Zakim]

-maxf

16:27:23 [Dzung_Tran]

-

16:27:24 [marengo]

/me bye

16:27:24 [Zakim]

-suresh

16:27:25 [marcin]

bye bye

16:27:28 [dom]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:27:28 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/18-dap-minutes.html dom

16:27:38 [Zakim]

-nwidell

16:27:41 [Zakim]

-dom

16:27:42 [Zakim]

-marcin

16:27:42 [Zakim]

-Laura_Arribas

16:27:43 [Zakim]

-darobin

16:27:43 [Zakim]

-marengo

16:27:46 [Zakim]

-fhirsch

16:27:49 [Zakim]

-Ingmar_Kliche

16:27:52 [Zakim]

-wonsuk

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16:28:31 [Zakim]

-AnssiK

16:35:01 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, arve, in UW_DAP()10:00AM

16:35:02 [Zakim]

UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended

16:35:06 [Zakim]

Attendees were fhirsch, drogersuk, AnssiK, +1.781.534.aaaa, Bryan_Sullivan, wonsuk, lgombos, darobin, maxf, dom, ilkka, Claes, richt, +49.208.829.0.aacc, marcin, arve,

16:35:08 [Zakim]

... +1.408.216.aadd, suresh, marengo, Ingmar_Kliche, Laura_Arribas, +0777183aagg, +47.23.69.aahh, nwidell

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