IRC log of CSS on 2009-11-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:29:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
16:29:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:45:52 [sylvaing]
sylvaing has joined #css
16:53:58 [glazou]
RRSAgent make logs public
16:54:41 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:54:41 [Zakim]
ok, glazou, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
16:56:02 [glazou]
RRSAgent, listen
16:56:08 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:56:15 [glazou]
thanks RRSAgent
16:57:11 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
16:57:13 [arronei]
Regrets for today I have a comflicting meeting this morning.
16:57:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aaaa
16:57:45 [glazou]
ok arronei
16:57:58 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
16:57:58 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:59:06 [Zakim]
16:59:26 [Zakim]
16:59:30 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:59:30 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
17:00:11 [Zakim]
17:00:24 [CesarAcebal]
CesarAcebal has joined #css
17:00:33 [dsinger_]
dsinger_ has joined #css
17:00:45 [Zakim]
17:01:33 [Zakim]
17:01:46 [oyvind]
oyvind has joined #css
17:02:24 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute me
17:02:24 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:02:26 [Zakim]
17:02:39 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
17:02:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, sylvaing, bradk, David_Baron (muted), dsinger, plinss, TabAtkins, ??P25
17:02:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see oyvind, dsinger_, CesarAcebal, bradk, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, dbaron, MoZ, jdaggett, Lachy, fearphage, arronei, TabAtkins, anne, plinss, Hixie, karl,
17:02:43 [dsinger_]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, sylvaing, bradk, David_Baron (muted), dsinger, plinss, TabAtkins, ??P25
17:02:46 [Zakim]
... shepazu, plinss_, trackbot, fantasai, Bert
17:03:10 [Zakim]
17:03:17 [dsinger]
zakim, mute me
17:03:17 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
17:04:11 [glazou]
17:04:42 [dsinger]
Regrets also from Beth
17:04:59 [glazou]
sylvaing: paracetamol is my friend
17:05:40 [TabAtkins]
scribenick: TabAtkins
17:05:50 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Extra agenda items?
17:06:03 [TabAtkins]
glazou: No extra items, moving ot list of issues.
17:06:12 [TabAtkins]
glazou: First item, boundaries of mouse-event trapping region.
17:06:19 [glazou]
17:06:24 [fantasai]
17:06:37 [dsinger]
Oh, dean's message about new Ed of transforms and transits
17:07:06 [glazou]
dsinger: ack
17:07:22 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We discussed hit-testing on the mailing list, and conclusion was for it to follow the boundaries of the border box. The parts of border-image that extend out of the box, and things outside the border-radius, shouldn't be included.
17:07:32 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: question is, should I put this in as a recommendation or as a note?
17:07:55 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
17:07:55 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
17:08:51 [TabAtkins]
david_baron: I think it should go wherever the pointer-events property goes.
17:09:07 [TabAtkins]
david_baron: I think if you do include it in the spec, it should be worded in a way such that other specs can modify it.
17:09:25 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
17:09:25 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
17:09:25 [TabAtkins]
david_baron: Frex, so that Pointer Events can say that an element doesn't receive any events, or whatever.
17:09:38 [fantasai]
"The CSS Working Group recommends that the area outside the curve of the border edge does not accept mouse events on behalf of the element."
17:09:41 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Original question: requirement or note?
17:09:45 [TabAtkins]
david_baron: No opinion.
17:09:50 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Requirement is easiest.
17:10:04 [fantasai]
"Portions of the border-image that are rendered outside the border box do not trigger scrolling. The CSS Working Group recommends that such portions are invisible to mouse events and do not capture clicks on behalf of the element."
17:10:06 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I'm trying to figure out *how* to require it.
17:10:12 [fantasai]
(or not require)
17:10:57 [Arron]
Arron has joined #css
17:11:06 [fantasai]
I would drop "The CSS Working Group recommends that"
17:11:07 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: to make it a requirement, I'd drop "The CSS WG recommends that..." and leave the rest of the sentence.
17:11:26 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Other opinions?
17:11:49 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED Second suggestion from Elika, eliding that text, is accepted.
17:11:51 [krijnh]
krijnh has joined #css
17:11:58 [glazou]
17:12:26 [fantasai]
17:12:35 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: background-opacity was on the list. I say that we're looking at that functionality for future specs, but want to skip it for now. The commenter seemed to be okay with that, based on their message.
17:12:47 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Did you answer to the guy?
17:12:56 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Not yet, but he said "It might be too late for this", and it is.
17:13:13 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED nothing to decide wrt background-opacity
17:13:15 [glazou]
17:13:26 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Issue 3 - slashes in border-image shorthand
17:15:14 [TabAtkins]
bradk: I think the slashes are great for separating numbers, but aren't needed to separate keywords and such.
17:15:21 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Agreed.
17:15:35 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
17:15:40 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Also, I think adding slashes everywhere, even if functional, is a bit ugly.
17:15:52 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Refuse the proposal?
17:16:02 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
17:16:02 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
17:16:13 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
17:16:13 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
17:16:13 [fantasai]
peterl: It's ugly, but is it helpful?
17:16:27 [TabAtkins]
david_baron: And also, is it consistent with CSS elsewhere?
17:16:42 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Right, we don't use slashes to separate values, only when it's really needed to discriminate.
17:16:52 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I'm not in favor of this.
17:17:01 [TabAtkins]
bradk: Not in favor either.
17:17:10 [dbaron]
I'm probably slightly against
17:17:12 [dbaron]
but not strongly
17:17:41 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED Do not add additional slashes to the border-image shorthand.
17:17:44 [glazou]
17:17:50 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Next issue - box-break keywords.
17:17:58 [dbaron]
17:18:06 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: The keywords aren't obvious what they meant. We have several new suggestions.
17:18:21 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: My preferences are for the ones that include 'slice', because I think it's clear.
17:18:27 [fantasai]
17:18:32 [fantasai]
17:18:43 [dbaron]
'separate' is probably misspelled more than 'continuous'
17:19:09 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute David_Baron
17:19:09 [Zakim]
David_Baron should no longer be muted
17:19:10 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: One is where the entire border is laid out and then sliced by the page breaks. The other is each group has its own background and border.
17:19:24 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I don't think 'separate' is quite right. Maybe 'replicate'?
17:19:39 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Weren't there 3 values before?
17:20:04 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: That was back when we had the background-break property, but we merged this in.
17:20:15 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: The misspelling issue for 'separate' isn't great.
17:20:18 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute David_Baron
17:20:18 [Zakim]
David_Baron should now be muted
17:20:22 [TabAtkins]
bradk: I like slice.
17:20:29 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I like slice too, but not separate.
17:20:33 [fantasai]
Response: Some other suggestions include slice | separate flow | separate slice | split one-box | add-boxes slice | divide
17:20:48 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #css
17:21:17 [Zakim]
17:21:31 [Zakim]
17:21:41 [fantasai]
slice | mitosis
17:21:42 [fantasai]
17:21:43 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:21:43 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:22:00 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I like slice, but several of the other keywords are close enough to 'slice' that they're not good for meaning 'not-slice'.
17:22:11 [fantasai]
slice | each-box
17:22:16 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: slice and each-box?
17:22:19 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Fine with e.
17:22:23 [TabAtkins]
glazou: No.
17:22:35 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Do you want anything with -box?
17:22:45 [sylvaing]
slice/repeat ?
17:22:47 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Possibly not. We already have box-break in the property.
17:23:23 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Remember these need to be understood by non-english speakers, even if it's not obvious immediately.
17:23:41 [TabAtkins]
plinss: 'break'?
17:23:54 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I like sylvain's suggestion.
17:24:07 [dbaron]
17:24:24 [TabAtkins]
bradk: What's being repeated? The edges?
17:24:35 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Kind of the whole thing, sort of.
17:24:59 [sylvaing]
brad: what is repeated is whatever is otherwise sliced :)
17:25:21 [fantasai]
slice | detach
17:25:36 [TabAtkins]
bradk: Looking up 'separate' in my thesaurus. 'detach'? 'discrete'?
17:25:36 [dbaron]
'discrete' is also commonly misspelled
17:25:37 [sylvaing]
if we use slice, the other ought to also be a verb
17:25:51 [dbaron]
it's misspelled as 'discreet'
17:26:08 [dsinger]
discrete and discreet have discreet meanings (or is that discrete meanings?)
17:26:23 [bradk]
17:26:35 [smfr]
maybe the difficulty with names indicates that box-break is not the right name for the property
17:27:39 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Do we have a general term for 'backgrounds and borders'?
17:27:50 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: 'backdrop'?
17:27:55 [dbaron]
17:28:08 [TabAtkins]
plinss: Does that imply borders very well?
17:28:30 [TabAtkins]
plinss: I'm thinking of box decoration.
17:28:53 [TabAtkins]
plinss: We already have text-decoration.
17:29:09 [Zakim]
17:29:16 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Bad parallel. The background and border properties are already 'box decorations'.
17:29:24 [TabAtkins]
bradk: 'break-method'
17:30:15 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Or put 'decoration' in the value name. "box-break:slice-decoration"
17:30:23 [smfr]
17:30:25 [TabAtkins]
smfr: "box-decoration-break"?
17:31:10 [bradk]
too long
17:31:14 [TabAtkins]
smfr: What would the values be?
17:31:24 [glazou]
I don't think it's too long
17:31:24 [TabAtkins]
plinss: We could be literal: 'open' and 'close'.
17:31:46 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I had border breaking properties 'open' and 'close', but it doesn't uch apply to background.
17:32:29 [bradk]
17:32:42 [CesarAcebal]
Will this property also affect to shadows?
17:32:44 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: What's the name for the individual *things* that are owning these separate backgrounds and borders?
17:32:53 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: boxes generated by boxes
17:32:58 [TabAtkins]
bradk: I still think it's too long.
17:33:03 [smfr]
box-decorations: break/continue ?
17:33:43 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I think it should affect shadows. That's what would be expected.
17:33:54 [TabAtkins]
smfr: What about outline?
17:34:20 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: outline isn't necessarily rectangular. It's kind of ua-defined.
17:34:37 [TabAtkins]
bradk: It'd be weird if a box had a border and an outline, and they looked different.
17:34:48 [glazou]
decorations-break: yes | no
17:35:28 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: outline always has a box around each piece, while borders normally are continuous.
17:35:51 [TabAtkins]
glazou: What abou decoration-break?
17:35:58 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: That gets mixed up with text-decoration.
17:36:01 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Agreed.
17:36:02 [CesarAcebal]
I'd prefer box-decoration-break.
17:36:05 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I don't think so.
17:36:21 [TabAtkins]
bradk: I still like 'break-method' or 'break-mode'.
17:36:35 [glazou]
box-decorations: break | unique
17:36:41 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We're trying to avoid that sort of thing, because it's not clear what 'mode' we're talking about.
17:36:51 [TabAtkins]
smfr: I also think the word 'break' by itself is confusing; word-breaking, etc.
17:37:09 [TabAtkins]
bradk: box-decorations doesn't say what it's for. There's lots of ways to decorate a box.
17:37:15 [dbaron]
I don't think 'unique' fits with "make 5 of them"
17:37:28 [smfr]
box-decoration-break is the winner!
17:37:33 [glazou]
17:37:42 [fantasai]
box-decoration-break: slice | replicate
17:38:08 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: no breaks, or lots of breaks
17:38:19 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: No, there's always breaks. You're just controlling how it looks.
17:38:28 [fantasai]
box-decoration-break: cake | muffins
17:38:31 [fantasai]
17:39:02 [TabAtkins]
glazou: It seems like we're running in circles.
17:39:13 [TabAtkins]
sylvain: Could you want to break backgrounds and borders different?
17:39:33 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think if we go back to separate properties the naming is easy.
17:39:43 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: We could go back to background-break or border-break.
17:39:58 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: The assumption that you want borders and backgrounds to always do the same, it's fine, but is that justifiable?
17:41:04 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I have a case in mind where 'separate' would be a problem. Frex, a gradient on a background, with text-color chosen specifically to contrast the part of the gradient.
17:41:30 [TabAtkins]
glazou: You'd want to have borders on each box, but spread the background out to all.
17:42:02 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: If we think they might be split, the naming issue would be simplified by just splitting them.
17:42:09 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We can split them in the future.
17:42:50 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: How would we split them in the future? Multiple properties?
17:43:03 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Yeah, you'd map the current values to values in the new split properties.
17:44:01 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: So we're still looking for a term that means 'backgrounds and borders' without saying 'backgrounds and borders'.
17:44:14 [fantasai]
box-decoration-break: slice | clone
17:44:43 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: 'box-decoration' hits that pretty well, and also covers shadows and such which we just decided we want.
17:45:10 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I used replicate, and clone works well. It's short.
17:45:38 [TabAtkins]
bradk: I'm still not seeing why 'box-break' is worse than 'box-decoration-break'.
17:45:58 [TabAtkins]
bradk: I thought it was not about whether you're breaking, but how you were breaking.
17:46:18 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: If you saw the property on its own, I'd think 'box-break' was referring to whether or not the box breaks.
17:46:40 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So we go with box-decoration-break. Elika proposed slice and clone.
17:46:55 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Like it.
17:47:09 [bradk]
clone the decoration
17:47:18 [TabAtkins]
smfr: I'm not sure I like it. Does it make sense to say you're cloning or slicing the break?
17:47:27 [dbaron]
broken-box-decorations: sliced | cloned
17:47:28 [smfr]
box-decoration-break: break/continuous
17:47:35 [dbaron]
yes/no is bad for property values
17:47:43 [TabAtkins]
smfr: Seems like if we're using -break, it should be yes/no or continuous/separate
17:47:47 [CesarAcebal]
And what about 'repeat' instead of 'clone'?
17:48:08 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: What's the issue with boolean values?
17:48:11 [CesarAcebal]
(By similarity with background-repeat: repeat.)
17:48:16 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: It goes weird as soon as you want a third value.
17:48:47 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Not sure I like it, but "broken-box-decorations: sliced | cloned"
17:48:59 [smfr]
i don't really like it
17:48:59 [fantasai]
break-box-decorations: slice | clone
17:49:22 [fantasai]
I don't like having grammatical suffixes in our properties
17:49:46 [bradk]
break-backdrop: slice | clone
17:49:49 [dbaron]
broken-boxes: slice | clone
17:49:56 [TabAtkins]
smfr: Is there an analogy with tables? Where headers are repeated on every page. There's no CSS for that yet?
17:50:18 [glazou]
broken-boxes: repeat-decorations | clone-decorations
17:50:20 [TabAtkins]
plinss: I don't think 'clone' makes sense for the border.
17:50:31 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Yeah it does. Each copy gets a complete copy of the border.
17:50:58 [TabAtkins]
smfr: I think a property called 'broken-boxes' is going to cause some amusement in general.
17:51:13 [sylvaing]
smfr, yes, it could be assumed to be an ie6 thing :)
17:51:19 [dbaron]
I'm happy with box-decoration-break, though.
17:51:19 [smfr]
box-decoration-breaks: slice/clone ?
17:51:31 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think slice/clone is the right thing to do here, I think they're evocative. For the property, I don't want grammatical suffixes in our properties.
17:51:51 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: (talks about which ones she prefers because of this)
17:52:04 [smfr]
who has the clunky keyboard?
17:52:24 [glazou]
glazou has joined #css
17:52:28 [glazou]
sorry lost the call
17:52:29 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm ok with box-decoration-break, or break-box-decoration, or break-backdrop
17:52:31 [glazou]
have to redial
17:52:41 [fantasai]
fantasai: I prefer the first because we have a pattern of subject-subtopic
17:52:44 [Zakim]
17:52:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: e.g. text-wrap
17:52:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: is about wrapping text
17:52:58 [fantasai]
fantasai: text-decoration, is about decorations on text
17:52:59 [Zakim]
17:53:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: page-break-after is about breakign pages, specifically, after the element
17:54:10 [TabAtkins]
bradk: I still think we're discussing the break-method.
17:54:20 [smfr]
17:54:53 [TabAtkins]
glazou: 'appearance' is used for UI. 'rendering'?
17:55:19 [smfr]
box-break-rendering: slice/clone ?
17:55:32 [TabAtkins]
plinss: box-break-rendering: single/multiple
17:56:19 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Moving discussion to mailing list.
17:56:51 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: As editor, I'm leaning to box-decoration-break:slice/clone. I'll put that in the Editor's draft, and if anyone has better suggestions, send it to the mailing list.
17:57:06 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we don't have consensus on something else, that's what we're going with
17:57:55 [TabAtkins]
dsinger: (said something I didn't catch about pushing another draft of some spec by Dean Jackson)
17:58:04 [smfr]
dsinger: suggested publishing new WD if transitions and 2d transforms
17:58:10 [smfr]
17:58:30 [smfr]
what was the resolution on background-opacity?
17:58:32 [Zakim]
17:58:34 [Zakim]
17:58:36 [Zakim]
17:58:36 [Zakim]
17:58:36 [Zakim]
17:58:37 [Zakim]
17:58:37 [Zakim]
17:58:38 [TabAtkins]
Leave it to later, smfr
17:58:39 [Zakim]
17:58:43 [Zakim]
17:58:44 [smfr]
TabAtkins: ok cool
17:58:52 [glazou]
smfr: too late for now
17:58:54 [smfr]
17:58:56 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:58:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou, +1.206.324.aaaa, sylvaing, bradk, David_Baron, dsinger, plinss, TabAtkins, CesarAcebal, smfr
17:59:00 [smfr]
i don't like it
17:59:05 [glazou]
smfr: glad you could join the call btw
17:59:12 [smfr]
my meeting finished early
17:59:23 [TabAtkins]
Yeah, I don't like it as it is. As part of a proper treatment of SVG filters, sure.
17:59:46 [fantasai]
right, it's the functionality we're considering for the future, not the property as proposed
17:59:47 [smfr]
i want background-image: alpha(url(foo.jpeg), 0.5) or something
17:59:50 [TabAtkins]
While I can see myself using it, I can't see myself using it *enough* to require a top-level property when we've got a generalized property on the horizon.
17:59:57 [smfr]
or background-image-opacity
18:00:21 [glazou]
sylvaing: IE9 demoed right now...
18:00:36 [smfr]
any interesting IE9 announcements?
18:00:52 [glazou]
let me quote
18:00:54 [glazou]
" IE9 rendering engine being demoed right now. . .rounded borders, rendered text through Direct2D, CSS Selector support! "
18:00:59 [smfr]
uh oh:
18:01:24 [smfr]
oh, joke
18:01:35 [TabAtkins]
18:02:23 [glazou]
18:02:47 [glazou]
dbaron: some software have bugs :)
18:04:01 [glazou]
sylvaing: what else in ie9?
18:06:36 [glazou]
rhâââ firefox just crashed because of silvelight
18:06:39 [glazou]
18:08:40 [bradk]
background-image-opacity, background-image-drop-shadow, background-image-transform, border-opacity, border-drop-shadow, etc.?
18:09:18 [TabAtkins]
Yeah, that's not a maintainable solution.
18:09:39 [TabAtkins]
Someone still needs to generate minutes because I forget how to.
18:09:49 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: make minutes
18:09:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fantasai
18:09:52 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: make logs public
18:11:39 [bradk]
fantasai, feel free to just crop the "continuous" and "each-box" text from that illustration (figure 13).
18:12:34 [Lachy]
Lachy has joined #css
18:13:59 [fantasai]
bradk: I just did :)
18:14:03 [fantasai]
also made the background transparent
18:15:05 [bradk]
good idea. I usually have that as a layer that I turn off before exporting as PNG. Guess I forgot.
19:05:11 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
20:25:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #CSS
20:37:18 [szilles]
szilles has joined #css
20:54:37 [smfr]
smfr has left #css
21:24:10 [Curt`]
Curt` has joined #css
23:52:16 [jdaggett]
jdaggett has joined #css