20:00:26 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:00:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-irc 20:00:28 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:00:28 Zakim has joined #svg 20:00:30 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:00:30 ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()3:00PM already started 20:00:31 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:00:31 Date: 16 November 2009 20:00:53 Zakim, who's here? 20:00:53 On the phone I see ??P1 20:00:54 On IRC I see RRSAgent, ed, jwatt, anthony, karl, shepazu, trackbot, ed_work, eseidelDesk 20:01:06 Zakim, ??P1 is me 20:01:06 +jwatt; got it 20:01:59 +[IPcaller] 20:02:11 Zakim, [IP is me 20:02:11 +anthony; got it 20:02:18 ddailey has joined #svg 20:02:45 +??P10 20:02:54 Zakim, ?? is me 20:02:54 +ed; got it 20:03:13 ddailey has left #svg 20:07:13 Scribe: anthony 20:07:19 Chair: Erik 20:07:27 Topic: Next SVG F2F 20:08:13 scribe: Jonathan Watt 20:08:18 scribenick: jwatt 20:09:42 AG: we were tentatively thinking 10-14 (Wed-Sun) Feb 2010 20:10:29 ...but if that puts too much of a squeeze on Erik's travel, maybe we can move it back a day 20:11:18 ...we should start booking soon, because things start to fill up quickly 20:11:51 ED: I would prefer to move it back a day or two 20:12:57 ...one day is probably enough 20:13:07 ...but I need to check flight times 20:13:16 ...worst case, I miss the last day 20:15:33 JW: I'm okay with shifting it back a day 20:15:52 shepazu: you ok with 9-13th feb? 20:15:56 ...we should check it meets Doug's constraints too 20:17:13 Topic: 3D Transforms 20:18:04 http://www.w3.org/mid/200911160854.nAG8sNIH030663@mail16.tpgi.com.au 20:18:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0025.html 20:19:52 JW: It's not completely clear to me what the second of those two links requires 20:20:12 ...but I think it's covered by z-index from what I understand 20:20:35 ...waiting on feedback to the email I sent him 20:22:46 http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html 20:22:50 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransformsReqs.html 20:22:51 JW: do we want to make a formal statement of the extent and limits of SVG's 3D ambitions? 20:23:17 ED: our charter does talk about pseudo 3D 20:23:28 AG: and we have our use cases and requirements document 20:23:29 "To allow more advanced design features and efficient decorative effects, there will be attention paid to new stroking and filling options, including pseudo-3D (2.5D) effects by means of new gradients, filters, and non-affine transformations, with authoring tips for their use." 20:24:08 AG: that says what we're trying to address 20:25:31 JW: we have the new transforms module and the z-index proposal 20:25:55 ED: and gradients may have some pseudo-3D effects 20:30:47 +Shepazu.a 20:31:08 +Shepazu 20:31:38 +Doug_Schepers 20:31:54 ACTION: anthony to send an email clarifying our pseudo-3D ambitions 20:31:54 Created ACTION-2691 - Send an email clarifying our pseudo-3D ambitions [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-11-23]. 20:33:48 -Shepazu 20:33:50 -Shepazu.a 20:34:58 ACTION: anthony to update the wiki page with the F2F times 20:34:58 Created ACTION-2692 - Update the wiki page with the F2F times [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-11-23]. 20:35:25 DS: I think we've not done a very good job of articulating our pseudo-3D ambitions 20:36:35 ...maybe we need to start using the front page of our wiki to more clearly articulate where we're going 20:36:46 JW: sounds good 20:37:52 DS: I'm going to try to redesign the front page to be much more friendly 20:38:24 ACTION: doug to redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and articulate there our pseudo-3D ambitions 20:38:24 Created ACTION-2693 - Redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and articulate there our pseudo-3D ambitions [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-23]. 20:40:34 DS: we've been using the wiki to collect our thoughts for ourselves, but we should start using it to disseminate information 20:40:52 ...in a more friendly form, with links to all the relevant documents 20:41:31 ...and we need to have good links from the main page to these pages 20:42:02 JW: agreed 20:42:25 AG: okay, i'll make a page and just link to it in the reply I send to the list 20:43:13 DS: and if Microsoft does join the group some time soon, then probably other companies will join too 20:43:42 ...in which case it will be especially useful to have documents that lots of new members can use to catch up more quickly 20:45:37 Topic: SVG 1.1 2nd Ed. 20:46:31 ED: I'm going to commit the zip with the Java bindings 20:46:49 ...I haven't looked at every single one of them, so I can't guarantee that they are all correct 20:47:05 ...I'm planning to email Cameron and Vincent 20:47:20 DS: and ask on the public list for a public review 20:47:31 ED: I can add the diffs 20:47:37 ...most of them are fairly small 20:47:45 ...but it's still 300 files or so 20:48:10 ...I'll do that after the telcon 20:48:14 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_Edition 20:48:32 ...the other thing that needs to be done is review the 3 unreviewed tests on this page 20:48:43 ...I haven't had time to do it yet 20:48:58 ...if anyone else feels like doing it, feel free 20:50:05 ...it may be hard to review that test until we've decided how to resolve the issues in the "Again with the getIntersectionList()" thread on the public list 20:50:20 ...so maybe we should schedule that for next week 20:50:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009OctDec/0005.html 20:50:39 ...but that's one of the last few things we need to do before we can publish 20:50:54 ...maybe a few other's from Cameron's email 20:51:43 ...okay, I'll put IntersectionList down for Thursday 20:52:33 ...there's nothing major from Cameron's list, I think 20:52:59 ...so we should be able to get 2nd Ed out very soon - it would be nice to have it out of the way 20:53:09 ...are the harnesses for the test suite in good shape? 20:53:14 AG: yes 20:53:28 ...I committed a whole bunch of stuff recently 20:53:42 ...all the scripts are up to date 20:53:52 I removed the svggen directory 20:54:07 s/I/...I/ 20:54:20 ...I started going over the Batik render errors 20:54:32 ...to make sure the references are getting produced correctly 20:55:11 ...I haven't tested the archive generation, but I'm fairly confident it's working correctly 20:55:20 Topic: Transforms module feedback 20:55:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0041.html 20:57:42 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransforms.html 21:02:58 ED: the first two questions are strongly related to z-index 21:04:26 DS: we should look at how CSS transforms deal with z-index 21:05:26 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-3d-transforms/#transform-style 21:06:19 [[The position on the Z axis of a transformed element does not affect the order within a stacking context. With elements at the same z-index, objects are drawn in order of increasing z position. ]] 21:07:07 JW: that makes sense to me 21:08:25 DS: and CSS and SVG should be consistent on this 21:08:52 ...one way or another 21:10:25 JW: so with transforms one part of the element will appear to be further along the z-axis than another part of the same element 21:10:27 AG: yes 21:11:36 JW: so in principle you could have two elements rotated around the z-axis that could intersect each other 21:11:53 AG: yes, so you have to ask yourself if you want to go full 3D like that 21:12:14 ...which means you have to have a completely different rendering model and solve all sorts of problems 21:12:44 JW: you probably need hardware support at that point, which is pobably going further than we want 21:12:57 DS: I don't think we should go to actual 3D 21:13:22 ...I think what they've done in CSS transforms is what we should do 21:13:26 [[ ‘transform-style’ property : Note that while ‘preserve-3d’ can be specified on an element, the effect may not be possible. Elements that have ‘overflow’ set to ‘hidden’ are unable to keep their children in 3D. In this case the element will behave as if the property was set to ‘flat’. ]] 21:13:56 s/intersect/cut through/ 21:13:58 [[ This flattening takes place at each element ]] 21:14:17 21:15:04 DS: I think we should articulate this somewhere 21:18:56 JW: the way to think about it is elements are painted one at a time 21:19:17 ...as an element is painted, it in my itself given a 3D transform, and painted 21:19:29 ...when the next element is painted, the same thing 21:19:58 ...this is totally different to taking all elements, arranging them in 3D space, then painting the 3D scene 21:20:04 AG: I think both the CSS spec and our spec should be a lot clearer about this 21:20:39 s/my itself/by itself/ 21:21:35 DS: the SVG and CSS WGs have gotten a lot better at working together 21:22:03 ...and I think we need to work a lot closer still with transforms 21:22:26 ...so that 3D transforms are completely consistent between the two specs 21:22:36 ...possibly one spec would be the way to go 21:24:31 ...it would probably be a good place to talk about z-index as well, since how it interacts with 3D transforms needs to be clear 21:28:58 ED: we should mark up our requirements clearly 21:31:28 ...it would be interesting to have sections on how things apply to HTML and other sections on how things apply to SVG in the same document 21:32:32 DS: the CSS transforms spec seems stalled for the moment, so making a joint effort on a joint spec could hopefully get things started again 21:34:40 DS: going back to Steve's email, I think Antony should reply, and put unresolved issues into tracker 21:35:19 ...mention that we will be talking to the CSS WG, and that he should also take a look at the CSS WG's spec 21:35:45 DS: he says he doesn't like matrices, and I don't like them either 21:36:26 AG: we should have them for completeness though 21:38:34 Topic: SVG DOM 21:38:35 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM 21:39:39 DS: we should add our commentary to the "commentary" page 21:39:54 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM_Report 21:39:59 ...stuff that's good, stuff that should be dropped, stuff to improve... 21:45:10 ACTION: anthony to check with JS about joining forces with the CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them 21:45:10 Created ACTION-2694 - Check with JS about joining forces with the CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-11-23]. 21:45:43 trackbot: end telcon 21:45:43 Zakim, list attendees 21:45:43 As of this point the attendees have been jwatt, [IPcaller], anthony, ed, Shepazu.a, Shepazu, Doug_Schepers 21:45:44 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 21:45:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html trackbot 21:45:45 RRSAgent, bye 21:45:45 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-actions.rdf : 21:45:45 ACTION: anthony to send an email clarifying our pseudo-3D ambitions [1] 21:45:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-irc#T20-31-54 21:45:45 ACTION: anthony to update the wiki page with the F2F times [2] 21:45:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-irc#T20-34-58 21:45:45 ACTION: doug to redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and articulate there our pseudo-3D ambitions [3] 21:45:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-irc#T20-38-24 21:45:45 ACTION: anthony to check with JS about joining forces with the CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them [4] 21:45:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-irc#T21-45-10