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15:41:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-xproc-irc
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15:43:44 <MoZ> Hi ht
15:43:50 <MoZ> there's really a Meeting ?
15:44:06 <ht> I Vojtech comes back, yes
15:44:31 <MoZ> s/I/If/ ?
15:56:10 <PGrosso> PGrosso has joined #xproc
15:57:19 <ht> yes
16:00:13 <MoZ> Zakim, what's the code?
16:00:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
16:00:25 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:32 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
16:01:06 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:01:06 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:01:07 <Zakim> -PGrosso
16:01:07 <Zakim> +PGrosso
16:01:09 <Zakim> +Ht
16:01:30 <Vojtech> Vojtech has joined #xproc
16:02:15 <Zakim> +Vojtech
16:02:36 <ht> Meeting: XProc WG telcon
16:02:52 <ht> Scribe: Henry S. Thompson
16:02:55 <ht> ScribeNick: ht
16:03:05 <ht> Chair: Henry S. Thompson (pro tem)
16:03:12 <ht> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2009/11/12-agenda.html
16:03:16 <alexmilowski> *sigh*
16:03:22 <alexmilowski> fighting with the bridge
16:03:26 <ht> :-(
16:03:38 <ht> code is 97762
16:03:47 <alexmilowski> it just dropped me...
16:03:54 <ht> Mohamed, you joining us?
16:03:58 <Zakim> +Alex_Milows
16:06:28 <ht> HST: Agenda approved as posted, with DefProcMod next steps added at the end
16:07:26 <MoZ> gonna join in 5 to 10 minutes max
16:07:52 <ht> HST: Minutes of 29 October and 2 November approved nem con.
16:08:13 <ht> HST: Next meeting 19 November
16:08:39 <ht> Topic: What can be used in [p:]use-when?
16:10:54 <Vojtech> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2009Nov/0010.html
16:10:58 <ht> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2009Nov/0023.html
16:13:16 <ht> HST: I proposed enumerating a set of guaranteed system properties and functions
16:13:27 <ht> ... anything else has implement-dependent results
16:14:12 <ht> TV: I'm happy with this -- messy in the spec., but works for implementors
16:14:24 <ht> HST: We'll return to this when MoZ joins
16:14:47 <ht> Topic: exclude-result-prefixes -- name and spec. correct?
16:15:13 <ht> TV: I raised this, but realised we had already dealt with it, and so I have no substantive problem
16:15:47 <ht> ... MZ then raised the question of whether it was misnamed - - should it be called e.g. exclude-unused-prefixes
16:16:11 <ht> AM: Not clear it's really necessary, but I'm OK with that name change
16:16:28 <ht> TV: It's also in XSLT, what's it called
16:17:03 <ht> AM: The name in the agenda is mistaken, its name in XProc today is exclude-inline-prefixes
16:17:25 <ht> AM: In XSLT it's called exclude-result-prefixes
16:17:49 <ht> TV: Since we're not producing result trees, that doesn't really carry over
16:17:59 <ht> HST: I agree, that's a false friend
16:18:50 <ht> AM: e-i-p is used on p:pipeline, p:library, p:declare-step as well
16:19:00 <ht> TV: But it only applies to p:inline. . .
16:19:25 <ht> AM: We can't detect use of prefixes in content, so unused could be misleading
16:19:53 <ht> TV: Simplest thing is not to change name, but clarify what it means
16:20:47 <ht> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langspec.html#p.inline
16:20:56 <ht> AM: What needs to be clarified?
16:22:29 <Zakim> +MoZ
16:23:24 <ht> TV: We need to maybe expand on the very last sentence: "The XProc processor must include all in-scope prefixes that are not explicitly excluded."
16:24:01 <ht> HST: It's not really right as it stands -- should be something like "must include in in-scope namespaces a namespace binding for every  inscope-namespace"
16:24:27 <ht> AM: But the elements have their full names, so even that's not necessary
16:24:42 <ht> HST: But w/o it the serialisation will not know what prefixes to use
16:25:20 <ht> AM: If the prefix property is used, it can provide that info
16:25:48 <ht> HST: Where is that prop?
16:25:54 <ht> AM: On the element -- it's optional
16:26:35 <ht> HST: The motivation is the same as for XSLT -- avoid clutter in serialisation
16:26:56 <ht> AM: If you exclude a prefix that is only used in content, you can shoot yourself in the foot
16:27:30 <ht> AM: The serialiser will always be able to do the right thing -- quality of implementation -- saxon does the right thing
16:29:22 <ht> HST: Two reasons we did this, I think: [1] and [2]
16:29:32 <ht> AM: Note we don't actually talk about used or not
16:29:37 <ht> HST: Correct, and we shouldn't
16:29:44 <ht> TV: Agree we shouldn't
16:30:10 <ht> AM: So calling it -unused- would be misleading, because we don't impose that semantics
16:30:12 <MoZ> q+
16:31:04 <ht> MZ: 1) Name is misleading, we need to fix it; 2) You may need to use the prefix for QName in content
16:31:17 <ht> ... So you need to let in some prefixes on purpose
16:31:34 <ht> ... So used/unused needs to be carefully considered
16:32:28 <ht> HST: I hear consensus that we are not going to change what this attribute _means_
16:32:38 <MoZ> ack me
16:34:01 <ht> HST: I like the name as it is because of the scoping issue
16:34:11 <ht> AM: +0
16:34:57 <Zakim> -Alex_Milows
16:35:00 <ht> MZ: +0
16:35:00 <alexmilowski> grrr...
16:35:05 <ht> RESOLVED: No name change
16:35:34 <Zakim> +Alex_Milows
16:35:38 <ht> ACTION: HST to suggest wording to clarify the final sentence
16:35:59 <ht> s/sentence/sentence of section 5.12
16:36:23 <ht> MZ: Include an example of how this doesn't exclude unused prefixes
16:36:45 <ht> HST: I will consider that in my action
16:37:10 <ht> Topic: Picking up use-when again
16:39:11 <ht> MZ: A good start, but not sufficient?
16:39:44 <ht> ... Consider 2.6.2.2 and 2.6.2.1
16:39:55 <ht> zakim, disconnect ht
16:39:55 <Zakim> Ht is being disconnected
16:39:56 <Zakim> -Ht
16:40:05 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:40:05 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:40:06 <Zakim> +Ht
16:41:48 <ht> VT: That is covered in 3.9
16:41:54 <ht> MZ: Yes, I missed that
16:42:02 <ht> MZ: OK, I can live with HST's proposal
16:42:57 <ht> MZ: Ah, what about variables?
16:43:02 <ht> VT: Yes, we should add that
16:44:01 <ht> RESOLVED (tentative, pending NW agreement): Adopt HST's proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2009Nov/0023.html and adding no variable bindings to the list in 3.9 of things which are empty/not there
16:44:12 <ht> MZ: What about date-time ?
16:44:42 <ht> ... XPath is required to give the same result every time you call it -- could there be a problem here?
16:45:46 <ht> TV: XPath spec says current-date-time should give same result, but we don't guarantee that in XProc
16:46:23 <ht> HST: Whatever mechanisms XPath impls use to guarantee should be independent of how they're bein gused
16:46:30 <ht> ... so should work for us too
16:47:11 <ht> HST: So if NW's happy, he will change the spec., and if he isn't we'll hear from him
16:47:21 <ht> Topic: Default XML Processing Model draft
16:47:33 <ht> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/defproc.html
16:47:56 <ht> HST: One substantive question
16:48:33 <ht> ... What values do we use for fixup-xml-base and fixup-xml-lang?
16:49:23 <ht> ... We added these on request, because of the impact they were having on validation
16:49:35 <MoZ> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langspec.html#c.xinclude
16:51:13 <MoZ> http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude/#base
16:51:58 <ht> "An XInclude processor may, at user option, suppress xml:base and/or xml:lang fixup."
16:52:00 <ht> 4.5
16:53:36 <ht> AM: I am happy for these to be 'on' for the default proc. mod
16:54:28 <ht> PG: So this sets something on the top of the bit you include
16:54:47 <ht> HST: Yes, regardless of how much of the target you include
16:54:59 <ht> PG: I agree that fixup should be the default
16:55:18 <ht> HST: I will only observe that that's what we thought for XInclude 1.0
16:56:41 <ht> PG: But the problem only arises if people are lazy
16:56:59 <ht> HST: I think it can arise without any foul on anyone's part
16:57:18 <ht> PG: Ah, yes, now I recall
16:57:37 <ht> PG: No problem with well-formedness
16:57:39 <ht> HST: Right
16:58:22 <MoZ> <p:for-each
16:58:24 <ht> PG: The fixup only occurs at the infoset level
16:58:40 <ht> ... and the problem arises when you serialise that and try to validate the result
16:58:43 <ht> HST: Right
16:59:09 <ht> PG: The dpm is just for 'parsing' an XML Document, right?
16:59:30 <ht> ... Doesn't cover RT's question about how a browser processes the output of XSLT
17:00:23 <ht> PG: AM said the DPM defines what the browsers will apply XSLT _to_
17:00:34 <ht> ... so that's when XInclude gets done
17:00:49 <ht> HST: This processing model si probabaly now misnamed
17:01:08 <PGrosso> s/si/is/
17:02:39 <Zakim> -PGrosso
17:02:40 <MoZ> we should talk about processing sequence of document
17:02:40 <Zakim> -Ht
17:02:42 <Zakim> -Vojtech
17:02:43 <Zakim> -Alex_Milows
17:02:47 <Zakim> -MoZ
17:02:49 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
17:02:50 <Zakim> Attendees were PGrosso, Ht, Vojtech, Alex_Milows, MoZ
17:03:12 <ht> HST: This is not a model which itself imposes conformance requirements anywhere in the XML stack
17:03:35 <ht> ... rather it defines a _term_ which other _specs_ can now use, to mandate the processing defined 
17:03:42 <ht> PG: We need to come back to this
17:03:46 <ht> HST: We will
17:03:59 <ht> RRSAgent, make logs world-visible
17:04:05 <ht> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:04:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-xproc-minutes.html ht
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