IRC log of ua on 2009-11-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:11:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-irc
17:11:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:11:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:11:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes
17:11:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:11:47 [trackbot]
Date: 12 November 2009
17:12:27 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan, Kelly_Ford
17:14:11 [kford]
Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
17:14:13 [kford]
Agenda+ TPAC Recap
17:14:14 [kford]
Agenda+ Meeting Survey - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/12nov09/
17:14:16 [kford]
Agenda+ review any new proposals sent to list
17:14:17 [kford]
Agenda+ Writing more tehniques
17:14:38 [kford]
zakim, save agenda
17:14:44 [Zakim]
ok, kford, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-agenda.rdf
17:15:42 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:15:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-minutes.html kford
17:17:08 [kford]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-agenda.rdf
17:17:21 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-minutes.html kford
17:20:10 [kford]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:50:07 [iheni]
iheni has joined #ua
17:56:18 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:56:23 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has joined #ua
17:57:05 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+allanj
17:57:54 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:58:33 [AllanJ]
zakim, Microsoft is really kfor
17:58:33 [Zakim]
+kfor; got it
17:58:36 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:58:47 [AllanJ]
zakim, kfor is really kford
17:58:47 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:01:24 [Zakim]
+??P0
18:01:51 [AllanJ]
zakim, P0 is really iheni
18:01:51 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
18:02:02 [AllanJ]
zakim, ??P0 is really iheni
18:02:02 [Zakim]
+iheni; got it
18:02:14 [Zakim]
+Greg
18:02:15 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:02:51 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
18:03:58 [mth]
will join by phone in a few minutes
18:05:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aaaa
18:05:33 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:06:39 [AllanJ]
zakim, aaaa is really KimPatch
18:06:39 [Zakim]
+KimPatch; got it
18:07:22 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:07:23 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
18:07:23 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:07:25 [Zakim]
1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from kford]
18:07:26 [Zakim]
2. TPAC Recap [from kford]
18:07:27 [Zakim]
3. Meeting Survey - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/12nov09/ [from kford]
18:07:28 [Zakim]
4. review any new proposals sent to list [from kford]
18:07:29 [Zakim]
5. Writing more tehniques [from kford]
18:07:56 [AllanJ]
zakim, IPcaller is really mth
18:07:56 [Zakim]
+mth; got it
18:08:08 [AllanJ]
scribe: KimPatch
18:08:25 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
18:08:34 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 1
18:08:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
18:08:35 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:08:36 [Zakim]
2. TPAC Recap [from kford]
18:08:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, open next item
18:08:59 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "TPAC Recap" taken up [from kford]
18:10:23 [KimPatch]
Kelly: face-to-face Thursday Friday Wednesday afternoon -- I felt we worked well together. We started looking at our techniques -- intent, examples, resources
18:10:42 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20091106/MasterUAAG20091106.html
18:11:22 [KimPatch]
Kelly: speech input demonstration refreshing to help us think about ways to expedite commands that don't force the speech user to go through the keyboard or mouse model -- that was reinforced
18:11:49 [KimPatch]
Kelly: meeting minutes have links to other presentations
18:12:35 [KimPatch]
Kelly: progress on section five guidelines -- for some segments of the disabled and aging population still too hard to use -- anything we can do to make controls discoverable
18:12:53 [KimPatch]
Kelly: HTML five was a hot topic
18:13:29 [KimPatch]
protocols on formats group trying to drive review -- the ascent of a joint task force between HTML five and protocols and formats to make or progress on accessibility issues
18:13:55 [AllanJ]
Mark and Jim are members of HTML5 A11y Taskforce
18:14:21 [KimPatch]
three broad areas -- canvas accessibility, media accessibility, overall adds a lot of things
18:14:40 [KimPatch]
Kelly: turning our comments into bugs
18:15:44 [KimPatch]
Jim: Mark and I spent two hours in the accessibility group. when our media accessibility comes up again, there are a couple of people from that meeting I want to invite.
18:16:20 [KimPatch]
Mark: it was good to see TV exec. understand.
18:16:48 [KimPatch]
Jim: we were able to pipe up and say we are to have guidelines for that
18:17:27 [KimPatch]
Jean: the received a number of comments from the W3C team about our group being so visible -- dedication, enthusiasm, that was very nice to hear
18:18:12 [kford]
html 5 task force info http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force
18:18:39 [KimPatch]
Greg: the way we were working -- we tried breaking out into pairs, that worked out pretty well
18:19:54 [KimPatch]
Jim: hammered on and reorganized action items down to about 35 -- it would be different it clear that while before the end of the year
18:20:08 [KimPatch]
Jim: maybe take some of the writing off-line
18:20:35 [kford]
html 5 task force mailing list. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/
18:21:33 [KimPatch]
Jim: possible face-to-face in January?
18:22:58 [jeanne]
I am available
18:23:25 [AllanJ]
Jim Available
18:23:43 [KimPatch]
possible
18:30:37 [KimPatch]
Week of the 18th in Austin, 2 1/2 days
18:33:38 [KimPatch]
Jim: or UC Sun
18:35:55 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 2
18:35:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2, TPAC Recap, closed
18:35:56 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:35:57 [Zakim]
3. Meeting Survey - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/12nov09/ [from kford]
18:36:14 [AllanJ]
zakim, open item 3
18:36:14 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Meeting Survey - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/12nov09/" taken up [from kford]
18:39:26 [KimPatch]
Jim: 4.5.6 all or just accessibility related -- difficult to tell
18:41:36 [AllanJ]
KP: restoring to default is getting back to a known state. that is important. even if it is not the best for a particular.
18:42:05 [KimPatch]
Greg: 5.8 restoring defaults outside the user interface accomplishes that better
18:42:39 [AllanJ]
GL: 4.5.8 changing settings from outside the UA
18:43:28 [KimPatch]
Greg: to the less useful one be level a?
18:44:16 [KimPatch]
Kelly: do browsers have (4.5.6) today
18:44:51 [KimPatch]
Greg: Firefox lets you specify user profile
18:44:59 [KimPatch]
Kelly: IE does
18:45:33 [KimPatch]
Greg: question is is there a sitting inside the browser to specify user settings
18:46:29 [KimPatch]
Greg: the other question is what is the thing that for either of these would justify level A
18:46:37 [kford]
One example of how to restore FF http://www.universefirefox.com/how-to/restore-firefox-default-settings-without-uninstalling-it
18:48:41 [KimPatch]
Jim: if there aren't any we can always knock it back to AA
18:48:58 [KimPatch]
Kelly: IE has restore feature
18:49:48 [KimPatch]
Jim: we'll leave it at A pending last call report if no objections
18:49:51 [AllanJ]
action: Jeanne to update draft 4.5.6 Restore all to default. The user can restore all preference settings to their default values. (Level A)
18:49:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-244 - Update draft 4.5.6 Restore all to default. The user can restore all preference settings to their default values. (Level A) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-11-19].
18:49:53 [AllanJ]
NOTE: The user must not be required to know or enter the default values.
18:53:06 [KimPatch]
Greg: groups subjective
18:54:16 [KimPatch]
Kelly:I think the ambiguity is acceptable given the overall initiative that it's trying to move the industry towards
18:54:38 [AllanJ]
action: Jeanne to update draft 4.5.7 Restore related preferences to default. The user can restore groups of related preference settings to their default values (e.g. reset keyboard shortcuts, reset colors and sizes of rendered content, etc.). (Level AA)
18:54:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-245 - Update draft 4.5.7 Restore related preferences to default. The user can restore groups of related preference settings to their default values (e.g. reset keyboard shortcuts, reset colors and sizes of rendered content, etc.). (Level AA) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-11-19].
18:54:40 [AllanJ]
NOTE: Allowing the user to reset groups of related preference settings is more valuable than merely providing the ability to reset all preference settings together, because some users will be unable to use the product without a few specific custom settings. [@@This may be better in the understanding document@@]
18:55:01 [KimPatch]
Jim: 4.5.8
18:56:48 [Greg]
Suggest changing "This allows the user to configure a product that would be inaccessible in its default state" to end with "in its default or current state".
18:56:54 [KimPatch]
Greg: seems more important than the one we put at single-A
18:57:58 [KimPatch]
Kelly: my biggest concern about level is from an implementation perspective you're asking a manufacturer to do something outside their main application
18:58:50 [KimPatch]
Greg: commandline
18:59:21 [KimPatch]
Kelly: if you have to fix it important, but in the real world are things ever so screwed up that you can't do anything until it hit some kind of reset
18:59:45 [KimPatch]
Greg: analogy is compare with sticky keys -- you can' t get there without having turned on and the first place
19:00:45 [KimPatch]
Kelly: analogy different -- by the time you get to the browser you've resolved
19:01:16 [KimPatch]
Greg: seems easier than 4.6
19:02:46 [KimPatch]
Jim: this is filling and around the edges -- if the interface is messed up for there is a setting you can't get to you've already failed 4.1...
19:03:07 [KimPatch]
Jim: 4.5 is the guideline -- store preference settings
19:04:45 [KimPatch]
two different methods good for different users
19:06:03 [KimPatch]
Greg: looking at this in context it would be more useful if it wasn't restore default, but change settings -- more generalized
19:06:34 [Greg]
For comparison, here is from ISO 9241-171:
19:06:35 [Greg]
8.2.5 Provide user-preference profiles
19:06:37 [Greg]
Software should enable users to create, save, edit and recall profiles of preference settings, including input and output characteristics, without having to carry out any restart that would cause a change of state or data.
19:06:38 [Greg]
NOTE 1 For systems that provide access for multiple users, such as library systems, conversion back to a default profile can be advisable.
19:08:14 [AllanJ]
proposed: Change preference setting outside the UA
19:08:41 [KimPatch]
Greg: I'm willing to live with AA even though I think it's very important accessibility feature
19:10:37 [AllanJ]
Action: Jeanne to update the draft 4.5.8 Change preference setting outside the UI: The user can adjust preference settings from outside the user agent user interface. (Level AA)
19:10:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-246 - Update the draft 4.5.8 Change preference setting outside the UI: The user can adjust preference settings from outside the user agent user interface. (Level AA) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-11-19].
19:10:38 [AllanJ]
NOTE: This allows the user to configure a product that would be inaccessible in its default state.
19:10:40 [AllanJ]
EXAMPLE 1: A user agent ships with a separate utility for resetting or loading user preference settings.
19:10:41 [AllanJ]
EXAMPLE 2: Holding down a modifier keys or specifying a command-line switch when starting the user agent could force it to use the default settings, or previously used and known-good settings, or a specified user profile.
19:10:43 [AllanJ]
[@@note and examples may be better in the understanding document@@]
19:12:02 [AllanJ]
close ACTION-201
19:14:08 [mth]
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19:14:12 [Zakim]
-allanj
19:14:13 [Zakim]
-iheni
19:14:13 [Zakim]
-Greg
19:14:14 [Zakim]
-kford
19:14:14 [Zakim]
-mth
19:14:40 [KimPatch]
zakim, bye
19:14:40 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were allanj, Jeanne, kford, iheni, Greg, +1.617.325.aaaa, KimPatch, mth
19:14:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:14:57 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:14:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:15:23 [iheni]
iheni has left #ua
19:15:42 [jeanne]
regrets- +1.617.325.aaaa
19:15:56 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:15:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:16:13 [jeanne]
present- +1.617.325.aaaa
19:16:28 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:16:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:18:41 [KimPatch]
RRSAgent, bye
19:18:41 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-actions.rdf :
19:18:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update draft 4.5.6 Restore all to default. The user can restore all preference settings to their default values. (Level A) [1]
19:18:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-irc#T18-49-51
19:18:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update draft 4.5.7 Restore related preferences to default. The user can restore groups of related preference settings to their default values (e.g. reset keyboard shortcuts, reset colors and sizes of rendered content, etc.). (Level AA) [2]
19:18:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-irc#T18-54-38
19:18:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update the draft 4.5.8 Change preference setting outside the UI: The user can adjust preference settings from outside the user agent user interface. (Level AA) [3]
19:18:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-ua-irc#T19-10-37