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20:05:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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20:05:58 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:05:58 <trackbot> Date: 12 November 2009
20:06:02 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
20:06:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:06:02 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:10:02 <jwatt> Zakim, who is here?
20:10:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Shepazu
20:10:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jwatt, trackbot, anthony, shepazu, karl, ed_work, eseidelDesk
20:10:17 <jwatt> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:10:17 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
20:11:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:11:26 <anthony> zakim, [IP is me
20:11:26 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:18:44 <jwatt> scribe: jwatt
20:18:55 <jwatt> scribenick: jwatt
20:20:26 <shepazu> Topic: F2F dates
20:21:49 <jwatt> AG: spoke erik - not available 18-22 Feb
20:22:13 <jwatt> ... Cam not back until Q2 earliest
20:22:32 <jwatt> ... jwatt not available in Feb
20:22:42 <jwatt> ... or Jan
20:23:12 <jwatt> ... so I'm wondering if we should do the F2F early March
20:23:30 <jwatt> ... first week
20:26:49 <jwatt> DS: I was thinking of going to Japan in Jan, and hoping to make it a single trip going back via AUS
20:29:57 <jwatt> [discussion about times]
20:30:14 <jwatt> AG: how about 10th - 14th Feb?
20:31:21 <jwatt> [more discussion]
20:31:30 <jwatt> JW: okay, that could hopefully work for me
20:31:42 <jwatt> AG: I'll talk to Ed about those dates
20:32:41 <shepazu> Topic: SVG DOM
20:32:50 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0026.html
20:33:59 <shepazu> s/SVG DOM/Microsoft
20:39:11 <shepazu> if MS were to implement SVG, how much of the DOM would be necessary for broad interoperability?
20:40:08 <shepazu> as far as implementations, the most complete is probably Batik... then ASV (which is dwindling)... then the modern browsers (Opera, FF, Safari)...
20:40:36 <shepazu> then there's the mobile UAs, but they use SVGT1.2's microdom...
20:41:24 <shepazu> there's also compatibility with existing content to look at... it would be good to know how much of the corner-cases of the DOM are used in content
20:42:29 <shepazu> note that Opera, FF, and WebKit implement different subsets of the DOM
20:47:52 <jwatt> DS: there's a lot of good stuff in the SVG DOM, including unimplemented stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that was possibly not well thought out
20:48:37 <jwatt> ... I think we're at a unique point where there's not a lot of content affected by DOM changes
20:49:19 <jwatt> ... if we had a bunch of implementers that wanted to reconsider the DOM, we should maybe do that
20:49:34 <jwatt> ... 1.2 Tiny is a complete departure from 1.1 Full anyway
20:50:43 <jwatt> ... it would be a hard sell to some people, but if all the browser vendors wanted to do it, I'd we willing to look at it
20:51:02 <jwatt> AG: I think it would be good to look at provided we keep backwards compatibility in mind
20:52:13 <jwatt> DS: backwards compatibility could mean backwards compatibility with content OR implementations
20:52:48 <jwatt> ... there's three different types of content to deal with
20:52:57 <jwatt> ... 1) static content - not relevant here
20:53:16 <jwatt> ... 2) content that uses basic DOM Level 1/2/3 stuff
20:53:33 <jwatt> ... 3) content that uses particular things in the SVG DOM
20:55:13 <jwatt> ... we're only at partial risk in 2, depending on how much we throw away or keep
20:55:30 <jwatt> ... 3 is where our main risk is
20:56:02 <jwatt> ... the importance I'd give is first content, then implementations, then specifications
20:57:21 <anthony> AG: With backwards compatibility of implementations, we would only need to look at where implementations overlap
20:58:20 <jwatt> JW: I'm mainly worried about implementation complexity and performance
20:58:26 <anthony> scribe: anthony
20:58:47 <anthony> JW: The SVG DOM that are really negative for both
20:59:02 <anthony> ... especially the complex multiple levels of objects
20:59:06 <anthony> ... and object properties
20:59:10 <anthony> ... for certain attributes
21:00:08 <anthony> ... means you end up crossing the boundary between script and multiple implementations several times
21:00:17 <anthony> ... just to set multiple properties
21:00:37 <anthony> ... and these object heavy interfaces
21:00:43 <anthony> ... also add to implementation complexity
21:01:08 <anthony> ... if you are to avoid excessive memory use
21:01:58 <anthony> ... a lot of the time when I'm implementing DOM I sometimes wish we could start over and redesign it
21:02:03 <anthony> ... given the knowledge we have now
21:02:14 <anthony> ... but I've never felt that it was really possible
21:02:23 <anthony> DS: One thing I've been talking about with people recently
21:02:29 <anthony> ... is a DOM summit
21:02:33 <anthony> ... or workshop
21:02:48 <anthony> ... where we get together for 2 - 3 days with authors and developers
21:03:31 <anthony> ... people who are doing implementations and also people who experience with the SVG DOM making content with the SVG DOM
21:03:54 <anthony> ... and people who have experience with the Flex development and seeing if we can make a best of breed interface
21:04:59 <anthony> ... and API developers
21:05:33 <anthony> ... I've seen people who said they liked what the SVG WG came up with recently
21:06:11 <anthony> ... there are sort of general DOM optimisations
21:06:22 <anthony> ... then there is stuff that is useful for SVG and Graphics
21:06:31 <anthony> ... unified API for SVG and Canvas
21:06:46 <anthony> ... TC39 should be along for the summit as well
21:07:12 <anthony> ... I'd like to take a look at expanding the maths library so it deals with points and vectors
21:07:16 <anthony> ... and matrices
21:07:53 <anthony> JW: Math global?
21:07:55 <anthony> DS: Yes
21:08:05 <anthony> ... I think TC39 does the Math global
21:08:08 <anthony> JW: Yes it will be
21:09:11 <anthony> ... I'm kind of worried about getting so many people in the one room
21:09:17 <anthony> ... as your starting point
21:09:27 <anthony> AG: I agree
21:10:03 <anthony> JW: TC39 would not have any dependencies on SVG
21:10:14 <anthony> ... and I don't think they'd like that
21:10:33 <anthony> ... they would have to have dependencies on SVG
21:11:08 <anthony> DS: We could put the functions in the right places or where they belong
21:11:21 <anthony> JW: Java script library is the right place for that
21:12:59 <jwatt> s/the/probably the/
21:13:31 <anthony> DS: Scrip libraries rarely do that one thing they are suppose to do. They always end up doing a whole bunch of other things
21:13:42 <anthony> ... and you end up having to download the whole library
21:13:55 <anthony> ... I think they are overused as a tactic for expanding the web
21:14:29 <anthony> JW: I agree at some point we want to take a script library and standardise the features
21:14:52 <anthony> ... once it's in the standard it becomes concrete
21:15:12 <anthony> DS: I understand your point JWatt, at one point is it appropriate to standardise
21:15:30 <anthony> s/one point/what point/
21:17:11 <anthony> AG: With the summit, you'd want to go in there with use case and requirements
21:17:28 <anthony> JW: I guess the main point here is should we be working on a new DOM
21:17:35 <anthony> ... I'm not sure how many people this will effect
21:17:40 <anthony> ... and how much content will be lost
21:17:48 <anthony> ... if people throw away their old implementations
21:18:11 <anthony> JW: Let's not pretend that the browsers have as complete implementation as Adobe did
21:18:40 <jwatt> s/JW/DS/
21:18:58 <anthony> JW: I think Mozilla's implementation in certain places is more complete than Adobe's ever was
21:19:39 <anthony> DS: If we are worried about breaking compatibility with past content
21:19:43 <anthony> ... then that's already been done
21:20:05 <anthony> ... most of the content that was made back in the old days is not compatible with the implementations of today
21:20:25 <anthony> JW: I agree all the stuff that was written in the Adobe is pretty much broken
21:20:35 <anthony> ... I'm worried that people made content we broke it
21:20:43 <anthony> ... then people have made new content
21:20:51 <anthony> ... then we break it again
21:22:12 <anthony> ... maybe that the content is small enough that for the sake of the benefits of the future out weigh the cost for breaking things again
21:22:18 <jwatt> s/Adobe/Adobe days/
21:22:24 <anthony> ... but still going to be a painful process
21:23:25 <anthony> JW: I think the thing that might sway me to take the root of breaking backwards compatibility
21:23:39 <anthony> ... with the emergence of Web IDL has allowed us to make much better interfaces
21:23:51 <jwatt> s/with the/is the/
21:24:04 <jwatt> s/has allowed/which allows/
21:24:57 <anthony> JW: Have a whole bunch of bulky stuff and it'd be nice to throw it away
21:25:26 <anthony> ... we'd have to publicize this
21:25:29 <anthony> ... and get feedback
21:25:50 <anthony> DS: I think MAMA is a good way to gauge what is out there
21:26:07 <jwatt> s/feedback/feedback\/see how much we get flamed/
21:26:07 <anthony> ... and having a good test suite would help
21:26:28 <anthony> JW: I think what you're talking about what is used in the wild
21:26:41 <anthony> .... is useful, but what I was talking about was making a list
21:26:53 <anthony> ... of things we might consider removing from the SVG DOM
21:27:16 <anthony> ... and saying "hey we're not thinking about starting over, we are thinking of throwing some things away"
21:27:23 <anthony> ... potential for less confusion
21:27:32 <anthony> DS: Obviously we'd have to get pretty concrete
21:27:38 <anthony> ... what's the next step?
21:27:44 <jwatt> s/starting over/throwing everything in the SVG DOM away/
21:28:09 <jwatt> s/some things away/away X, Y and Z/
21:28:42 <anthony> DS: Maybe we should start on a specification
21:28:54 <anthony> ... nothing like a specification to get people talking
21:29:07 <anthony> ... we need to finish SVG Full 1.1 2nd Edition
21:29:10 <anthony> ... and start SVG 2.0
21:29:15 <anthony> ... and start with the DOM
21:30:08 <anthony> ... so next step is what?
21:30:19 <anthony> JW: Working on the specification is one thing
21:30:44 <anthony> ... should have a document somewhere saying we are thinking of doing this
21:31:38 <anthony> AG: How is that different from the current page?
21:31:46 <anthony> DS: Current page has future ideas
21:31:59 <anthony> AG: We should have a parent page
21:34:57 <anthony> DS: If I felt that everyone was along for the ride
21:35:11 <anthony> ... then I'd say let's go with SVG 2.0 and not worry about the past
21:35:30 <anthony> JW: Really I'd love to see the MAMA stuff and get the data
21:35:36 <anthony> ... and I don't want to commit to breaking stutt
21:35:42 <anthony> s/stutt/suff/
21:36:03 <anthony> DS: That would be what we need is feedback from the community
21:36:15 <anthony> ... we are fortunate that most of the content is static
21:37:58 <Zakim> -anthony
21:38:00 <Zakim> -jwatt
21:38:08 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:38:10 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:00PM has ended
21:38:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, jwatt, [IPcaller], anthony
21:38:20 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:38:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
21:38:28 <anthony> RRSAgent, make  minutes
21:38:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-svg-minutes.html anthony