14:44:00 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml 14:44:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-irc 14:44:02 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:44:02 Zakim has joined #xhtml 14:44:04 Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2 14:44:04 ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 14:44:05 Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference 14:44:05 Date: 11 November 2009 14:44:41 IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started 14:44:46 Steven: then I've not ... bah. Be right there. 14:44:48 +Gregory_Rosmaita 14:45:06 alessio has joined #xhtml 14:45:22 zakim, dial steven-617 14:45:22 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:45:23 +Steven 14:45:26 agenda request - XHTML Role and ARIA and extension of roles in aria and expansion of pre-defined roles, in particular "form" 14:45:42 Zakim, code? 14:45:42 the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Tina 14:46:02 zakim, who is here? 14:46:02 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven 14:46:03 On IRC I see alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, oedipus, Steven, markbirbeck, Tina, trackbot 14:46:17 +Tina 14:46:29 using the web based IRC client, so not very feedback 14:46:40 ShaneM has joined #xhtml 14:46:48 +??P2 14:47:01 zakim, +??P2 is Alessio 14:47:01 sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2' 14:47:06 zakim, ??P2 is Alessio 14:47:06 +Alessio; got it 14:47:37 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Nov/0000 14:48:02 +McCarron 14:48:30 addition of the term "form" as a predefined role for the XHTML2 Role Module: XHTML2 WG ISSUE-5: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/issues/5 14:48:30 -McCarron 14:48:42 low tech crap 14:48:56 +McCarron 14:49:06 shane's proposal in email archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Apr/0055.html 14:49:09 -Steven 14:49:13 My phone died 14:49:35 zakim, dial steven-617 14:49:35 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:49:36 +Steven 14:50:15 zakim, drop steven 14:50:15 Steven is being disconnected 14:50:16 -Steven 14:50:19 we got your voice mail. lol 14:50:32 zakim, dial steven-617 14:50:32 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:50:34 +Steven 14:51:11 again 14:51:21 best thing about the cold is you can always get warmer, can only do so much oneself to cool 14:51:28 zakim, drop steven 14:51:28 Steven is being disconnected 14:51:29 -Steven 14:52:07 zakim, code? 14:52:07 the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven 14:52:22 +Steven 14:52:35 -Steven 14:53:29 zakim, dial steven-617 14:53:29 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:53:31 +Steven 14:53:51 XHTML Role agenda addendum 14:53:56 1. extensibility and ARIA 14:54:01 2. expansion of predefined role (in particular, "form") 14:54:05 3. exact relationship between ARIA and XHTML Role (ARIA LC Comments from XHTML2) 14:54:28 -McCarron 14:54:42 its a conspriacy 14:54:49 :D 14:54:57 Agenda+Announcements 14:55:08 Agenda+DOM3 Events 14:55:13 Agenda+PERs 14:55:21 Agenda+ARIA 14:55:24 +ShaneM 14:55:39 Agenda+XHTML2 14:55:52 zakim, next agendum 14:55:52 agendum 1. "Announcements" taken up [from Steven] 14:56:04 scribe: Steven 14:57:09 SP: last week TPAC 2009 -- not very much to report -- relation to this WG, one HTML5 discussion on distributed extensibility - only discussed issues we knew about, no action items assigned - 2 sides expanding their positions without agreement on how to procede 14:57:36 SP: continuing stream of discussions we've been having at the last several TPACs -- disappointed at lack of traction 14:57:57 i/SP: last/ScribeNick: oedipus 14:58:43 GJR: there is now a HTML5 - PF HTML5 Accessibility Task Force 14:59:28 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force 15:00:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/ 15:00:15 oedipus: noticed that. Disappointed. 15:01:13 zakim, next agendum 15:01:13 agendum 2. "DOM3 Events" taken up [from Steven] 15:01:26 SP: web content transformation needs to be reviewed -- by me 15:01:47 SP: now Oasis member - will keep WG updated 15:02:01 SP: emessage from Doug Schepers about changes to DOM3 events 15:02:20 SP: XML Events now uses DOM2 so not particularly germane 15:02:31 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Oct/0016 15:02:36 SP: still anyone interested should review 15:02:49 SP: Forms WG is planning on taking XML Events 2 on board 15:02:56 SP: PERs - no progress 15:03:16 SP: sent email to Ralph & PLH to re-draw attention to requests 15:03:49 SM: cannot finish our work before end of term of WG 15:04:45 SP: needs thought and discussion - will fire up email to R & PLH to say we can't meet deadlines because of delay in feedback and a stopper in the process 15:05:25 i/SP: PERs/topic: PERs 15:05:31 rrsagent, make minutes 15:05:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 15:06:18 topic: XHTML Role and ARIA 15:06:23 Scribe: Steven 15:06:33 Gregory: THere are 3 issues 15:06:38 s/TH/Th/ 15:06:50 ... first the ARIA extensibility, using @role 15:07:00 ... we need to be more specific about extensibility 15:07:14 ... we want to point to XHTML role 15:07:39 Steven: We need someone to take over role 15:07:51 ... couls you not do that? 15:08:02 s/couls/could/ 15:08:20 Shane: I will do the work, but we need a WG 15:08:41 Gewgory: I am also working on the access module 15:08:51 ... for HTML5 15:09:12 Shane: Manu in RDFa has created a way of making modules for HTML5 15:09:21 Gregory: Can you send me a pointer? 15:09:49 Steven: Woyuld the WAI group take role over? 15:10:01 s/Woy/Wo 15:10:09 Gregory: PF meets at 12 15:10:43 ... if ARIA follows role extensibility, we would need to be able to point to it 15:11:04 Steven: Either copy the content or take over the role spec 15:11:35 Role can refer to the CURIE definition in RDFa - it is normative and already a rec 15:11:41 Action: Gregory to ask WAI PF if they want to take on the role spec 15:11:41 Created ACTION-101 - Ask WAI PF if they want to take on the role spec [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-11-18]. 15:12:06 Gergory: THis helps is with the third point 15:12:11 s/TH/Th/ 15:12:40 ... the last issue I have, on predefined roles, can be answered later 15:12:49 ... I see value in having a role module 15:13:24 ... I want role to be a real module so that it isn't just seen as an accessibility hook 15:13:34 ... it can help with loads of other things 15:13:56 I wonder if it makes sense to define role-related extensions to rdfa? 15:14:09 zakim, next agendum 15:14:09 agendum 3. "PERs" taken up [from Steven] 15:14:15 zakim, next agendum 15:14:15 agendum 3 was just opened, oedipus 15:14:38 zakim, agend? 15:14:38 I don't understand your question, Steven. 15:14:40 zakim, agendum 5 15:14:40 I don't understand 'agendum 5', oedipus 15:14:42 zakim, agenda? 15:14:42 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 15:14:42 3. PERs [from Steven] 15:14:43 4. ARIA [from Steven] 15:14:43 5. XHTML2 [from Steven] 15:14:55 zakim, drop agendum 3 15:14:55 agendum 3, PERs, dropped 15:15:14 zakim, take up agendum 5 15:15:14 agendum 5. "XHTML2" taken up [from Steven] 15:15:23 scribenick: oedipus 15:15:35 SP: have a draft - thanks to shane for completing latest draft 15:15:48 SP: what do we as WG need to do to publish as final note, shane? 15:16:34 SM: [ponders] - aside from changing text to say "Note", also need to change Status section 15:16:49 SM: no technical work needed for Note 15:17:13 SP: list of open issues - keep them or dispose of them through pass-off? change status to say work will continue elsewhere? 15:17:18 SM: does W3C know that 15:17:21 SP: told them 15:18:05 SM: what to put in status section 15:18:13 SP: if note, prefer to dispose of issues first 15:18:18 SM: we can do that 15:18:37 Wouldn't publish with the issues embedded. 15:19:43 proposed resolution: XHTML 2 will be a Note; Status of Document to change to reflect that work will continue elsewhere 15:22:23 http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/ 15:23:08 "Implementors should be aware that this specification is not stable. Implementors who are not taking part in the discussions are likely to find the specification changing out from under them in incompatible ways. Vendors interested in implementing this specification before it eventually reaches the Candidate Recommendation stage should join the aforementioned mailing lists and take part in the discussions." 15:24:15 RESOLVED: XHTML2 will be a W3C Note; accordingly the Status of this Document section will be updated to reflect change 15:24:20 rrsagent, make minute 15:24:20 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minute', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:24:30 rrsagent, make minutes 15:24:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 15:26:10 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/XHTML2/pre_obsolete 15:29:03 "Optimally, one would want to use a character entity code to indicate a TAB or multiple TABs, as some programming languages use TAB delineation, and the purpose of CODE and BLOCKCODE is to ENSURE that any user can copy and paste the sample of CODE, with whitespaces and explicitly declared TABs preserved." 15:29:54 PROPOSED 2: That the definition of CODE and BLOCKCODE be amended to indicate that whitespace, line breaks, and other "layout" compenents contained within CODE or BLOCKCODE is intended to be preserved, and that all current references to the PRE element be removed. An authoring tool could very easily translate individual spaces and other dilimeters (such as TAB) into the UTF-8 codes for a non-breaking whitespace and/or a TAB or TABs. This is also a strategy whi 15:30:36 SP: haven't heard what real damage pre does that anything else would solve? 15:30:59 SP: in favor of people being able to work with XHTML2 - PRE syntaxtic sugar, but familiar 15:32:31 GJR: for code and programming samples, should use CODE or BLOCKCODE 15:33:26 SP: taking PRE away will not cause solution to happen - nothing in replacement for PRE which will change current usage patterns 15:34:14 treat PRE in XHTML2 the way that blockquote for style was treated in HTML 4.01 -- deprecated for indentation purposes 15:34:43 SP: PRE as generic container can be ill used, but if take away people will use P with layout attribute 15:34:45 AC: agree 15:34:48 GJR: understood 15:35:30 SP: agree that PRE has problem being rendered by assistive tech, but eliminating PRE won't solve the problem GJR pointed out 15:36:01 SP: not in favor of taking out PRE 15:36:13 GJR: we currently have PRE, CODE, BLOCKCODE, and SAMP 15:36:18 SP: SAMP is inline 15:36:39 GJR: will port issue to further work on XHTML2 when that work is consumated 15:36:56 ACTION: Shane to produce a note version of XHTML 2 15:36:56 Created ACTION-102 - Produce a note version of XHTML 2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2009-11-18]. 15:37:23 -ShaneM 15:37:24 -Steven 15:37:25 -Tina 15:37:28 -Alessio 15:37:34 rrsagent, make minutes 15:37:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 15:37:46 zakim, who is here? 15:37:46 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita 15:37:47 On IRC I see ShaneM, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, oedipus, Steven, markbirbeck, Tina, trackbot 15:37:52 SM: anyone with earthshattering changes to XHTML2 as currently defined in the draft are requested to email shane and the list before change to note 15:37:53 zakim, dro pgregory 15:37:53 I don't understand 'dro pgregory', Steven 15:37:59 -Gregory_Rosmaita 15:38:00 IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended 15:38:01 Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven, Tina, Alessio, McCarron, ShaneM 15:38:09 rrsagent, make minutes 15:38:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 15:38:40 chair: Steven 15:38:51 rrsagent, make minutes 15:38:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/11-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 15:53:30 ShaneM has left #xhtml 16:04:52 oedipus has joined #xhtml