IRC log of sparql on 2009-11-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:59:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:59:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sparql
14:59:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
14:59:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:59:11 [trackbot]
Date: 10 November 2009
14:59:18 [LeeF]
zakim, this is SPARQL
14:59:18 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
14:59:32 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see andy
14:59:36 [Zakim]
14:59:46 [AndyS]
zakim, very good.
14:59:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'very good', AndyS
14:59:53 [Zakim]
14:59:56 [AndyS]
zakim, andy is AndyS
14:59:56 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
15:00:03 [Zakim]
15:00:08 [AlexPassant]
AlexPassant has joined #sparql
15:00:08 [Zakim]
15:00:19 [Zakim]
15:00:32 [Zakim]
15:00:38 [LeeF]
zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
15:00:38 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
15:00:41 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:00:41 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:00:43 [Zakim]
15:00:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.216.445.aaaa
15:00:48 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
15:00:48 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
15:00:51 [Zakim]
15:00:53 [john-l]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:00:53 [Zakim]
+john-l; got it
15:00:53 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:00:55 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
15:01:05 [dcharbon2]
dcharbon2 has joined #sparql
15:01:24 [Zakim]
15:01:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.574.905.aabb
15:01:56 [Zakim]
15:02:50 [OlivierCorby]
OlivierCorby has joined #sparql
15:03:13 [Zakim]
15:03:20 [LeeF]
zakim, who's here?
15:03:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, bglimm, Sandro, EricP, pgearon, LeeF, kasei (muted), Ivan, john-l, AlexPassant, OlivierCorby, +1.574.905.aabb, dcharbon2, ??P15
15:03:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, AlexPassant, Zakim, RRSAgent, john-l, tommik, SteveH, bglimm, KjetilK, karl, ivan, LukeWM, AndyS, iv_an_ru, LeeF, pgearon, kasei, sandro,
15:03:25 [LeeF]
zakim, P15 is Orri
15:03:26 [Zakim]
... kjetil, ericP, trackbot
15:03:27 [Zakim]
sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
15:03:28 [LeeF]
zakim, ??P15 is Orri
15:03:28 [Zakim]
+Orri; got it
15:03:36 [LeeF]
zakim, who's here?
15:03:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, bglimm, Sandro, EricP, pgearon, LeeF, kasei (muted), Ivan, john-l, AlexPassant, OlivierCorby, +1.574.905.aabb, dcharbon2, Orri
15:03:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, AlexPassant, Zakim, RRSAgent, john-l, tommik, SteveH, bglimm, KjetilK, karl, ivan, LukeWM, AndyS, iv_an_ru, LeeF, pgearon, kasei, sandro,
15:03:45 [Zakim]
... kjetil, ericP, trackbot
15:03:56 [Zakim]
- +1.574.905.aabb
15:04:03 [Zakim]
15:04:22 [LukeWM]
zakim, ??P16 is Garlik
15:04:22 [Zakim]
+Garlik; got it
15:04:29 [LeeF]
zakim, Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH
15:04:29 [Zakim]
+LukeWM, SteveH; got it
15:04:36 [LeeF]
zakim, who's here?
15:04:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, bglimm, Sandro, EricP, pgearon, LeeF, kasei (muted), Ivan, john-l, AlexPassant, OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, Orri, Garlik
15:04:38 [Zakim]
Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH
15:04:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see OlivierCorby, dcharbon2, AlexPassant, Zakim, RRSAgent, john-l, tommik, SteveH, bglimm, KjetilK, karl, ivan, LukeWM, AndyS, iv_an_ru, LeeF, pgearon, kasei, sandro,
15:04:42 [Zakim]
... kjetil, ericP, trackbot
15:04:47 [LukeWM]
zakim, Garlik has SteveH,LukeWM
15:04:47 [Zakim]
SteveH was already listed in Garlik, LukeWM
15:04:48 [Zakim]
LukeWM was already listed in Garlik, LukeWM
15:05:21 [LeeF]
tommik, are you able to join us on the teleconference?
15:05:38 [tommik]
LeeF, trying my phoneline went dead
15:05:48 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
15:06:00 [bglimm]
I guess I should scribe...
15:06:34 [LeeF]
Scribenick: bglimm
15:06:36 [Zakim]
+ +035840564aacc
15:06:38 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
15:07:22 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at (if we manage to get them up)
15:07:57 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at (if we manage to get them up)
15:08:30 [bglimm]
LeeF: Minutes from 27th have to be cleaned up first.
15:08:41 [bglimm]
LeeF: Lets talk about a third F2F
15:09:08 [bglimm]
... over the next month we will flesh out the docs and create test cases
15:09:48 [LeeF]
zakim, aacc is tommik
15:09:48 [Zakim]
+tommik; got it
15:10:13 [LeeF]
Tommi is representing Profium
15:10:27 [LeeF]
ack tommik
15:10:30 [LeeF]
ack aacc
15:10:37 [LeeF]
ack +035840564aacc
15:10:39 [bglimm]
Tommik: I am representing Profium. I am software engineer for a meta data server, which is a SPARQL engine.
15:11:19 [bglimm]
LeeF: We want to get to Last Call in April.
15:11:45 [bglimm]
... a F2F around March would be good
15:12:09 [bglimm]
... first F2F with 2 sites worked quite well.
15:12:37 [bglimm]
Ivan: There will be an AC meeting in MIT in March
15:13:03 [bglimm]
LeeF: Axel suggested DERI to host a UK site.
15:13:21 [bglimm]
Ivan: The AC meeting starts on 21st of March
15:13:42 [Prateek]
Prateek has joined #sparql
15:13:48 [AndyS]
I'm muted
15:13:54 [AndyS]
... now
15:14:05 [LeeF]
potentially the week of March 16
15:14:09 [Zakim]
15:14:13 [bglimm]
LeeF: How about March 15
15:14:21 [ivan]
15:14:41 [bglimm]
I can ask here, whether Oxford can host a site too, but DERI would be ok for me.
15:15:10 [bglimm]
LeeF: One location could be Cambride (US) and another one DERI (Ireland)
15:15:15 [SteveH]
bglimm, oxford, please! :)
15:15:40 [LukeWM]
not sure if I could go to galway, would definitely prefer oxford.
15:16:10 [AndyS]
Oxford is my pref. Or London. Or AMS.
15:16:28 [bglimm]
LeeF: I will set up a wiki where people can indicate which time and place is ok
15:16:46 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to reset scribe list
15:16:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-138 - Reset scribe list [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-11-17].
15:16:53 [LeeF]
topic: liaisons
15:17:48 [bglimm]
LeeF: Eric gave a talk at the HDLS interest group and they wanted SPARQL 1.1 rather sooner than later, ideally now
15:17:57 [LeeF]
topic: F2F Report
15:17:58 [kasei_]
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15:18:17 [bglimm]
LeeF: Minutes have been processed
15:18:17 [LeeF]
minutes are at and
15:18:28 [bglimm]
... but need cleaning-up
15:18:44 [bglimm]
... will ask scribes to help with cleaning-up
15:19:09 [Zakim]
15:19:15 [bglimm]
... next week or the week after they should be ready and give people how where not there a good idea of decisions being made
15:19:38 [bglimm]
... main topics at the F2F where query issues on day 1 and update issues on day2
15:20:11 [LeeF]
15:20:18 [bglimm]
... we wanted to discuss as many open issues as possible, we did not want to make group resolutions because only 4 or 5 people were attending in person
15:21:32 [bglimm]
... I suggest people go through the discussions and suggested solutions and approve the suggested solutions or suggest changes
15:22:06 [bglimm]
... I'll quickly go through the issues
15:22:19 [Zakim]
15:22:21 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
15:22:21 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
15:23:05 [bglimm]
... Issues 11: Implicit grouping, pending due to issue 41
15:23:27 [bglimm]
... otherwise consensus
15:24:19 [bglimm]
... Issue 12: HAVING vs. FILTER as keyword for limiting aggregate results
15:24:51 [bglimm]
... general preference for FILTER keyword
15:26:01 [bglimm]
Issue unnumbered: DISTINCT in aggregate functions
15:26:20 [bglimm]
s/Issue/... Issue/
15:27:01 [bglimm]
... has a general consensus on allowing DISTINCT with multiple arguments to aggregate functions
15:27:15 [bglimm]
... issue unnumbered Star (asterisk) in aggregate functions
15:27:28 [bglimm]
... consensus on star makes only sense in count
15:27:37 [bglimm]
... ISSUE-15: Syntax for custom aggregates
15:28:13 [bglimm]
... mild preference for having a keyword to introduce custom aggregates
15:28:42 [bglimm]
s/having/not having/
15:29:05 [bglimm]
... this will be giving as advice to editors
15:29:16 [bglimm]
... ISSUE-16: Mixed datatypes with built-in aggregates
15:30:18 [bglimm]
... consensus on behavior of MIN/MAX and SUM/AVG
15:31:23 [bglimm]
... consensus on the use of COALESCE to trap errors from values that had to be discarded
15:31:37 [Zakim]
15:32:04 [chimezie]
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15:32:05 [bglimm]
... mild consensus on enforcing aliases for expressions
15:32:22 [SteveH]
q+ around AS expressions in projections
15:32:33 [SteveH]
q+ to talk around AS expressions in projections
15:32:39 [Zakim]
15:33:02 [bglimm]
... Issue Syntax for expressions in SELECT list has no satisfactory solution
15:33:17 [LeeF]
ack SteveH
15:33:17 [Zakim]
SteveH, you wanted to talk around AS expressions in projections
15:34:07 [bglimm]
SteveH: I withdraw any support for expressions in projections
15:34:39 [SteveH]
bglimm, no, it's commas I withdraw my support for
15:35:18 [bglimm]
s/expressions in projections/commas in Select expressions
15:35:37 [Zakim]
15:35:38 [bglimm]
s/expressions in projections/commas in Select expressions/
15:35:42 [AlexPassant]
Zaki, ?P6 is me
15:35:50 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ?P6 is me
15:35:50 [Zakim]
sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?P6'
15:36:07 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
15:36:07 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
15:36:17 [bglimm]
LeeF: sub-asks and sub-selects have already been discussed further on the mailing list
15:36:51 [bglimm]
LeeF: consensus for no sub-selects in filters
15:37:59 [bglimm]
... cannot use aliases (AS keyword) from sub-queries in the outer part of the query
15:38:31 [bglimm]
... any clarifications needed for what has been discussed so far?
15:39:01 [bglimm]
... action everybody to take a look at this and raise concerns on the mailing list if there are any
15:39:29 [bglimm]
... next week we will close issues for which no concerns have been expressed
15:39:57 [LeeF]
day 2 minutes -
15:40:13 [bglimm]
... I want to go through the day 2 minutes and look at the list of resolutions
15:40:49 [bglimm]
... we might have overlooked some things and Paul (update editor) might have objections
15:41:28 [bglimm]
... we were more people, so felt more confident to make resolutions, please express concerns rather sooner than later on the mailing list if there are any
15:41:58 [SteveH]
1. Was really more about the /capability/ of MODIFY, rather than the keyword, by my recollection
15:42:01 [bglimm]
... First resolution was: To close ISSUE-47 by noting consensus on keeping MODIFY in the Update language, modulo any concerns expressed by Update editors, no objetions or abstentions
15:42:57 [bglimm]
... there was a discussion on the mailing list about omitting the where clause is ok or not
15:43:15 [bglimm]
... Second resolution: Close ISSUE-21 noting that there are no proposals for additional operations at this time
15:43:44 [bglimm]
... Third resolution: Close issue-24, saying example 3e in the current draft is sufficient (subject to approval from update editors, who are absent from this meeting)
15:44:40 [bglimm]
... Fifth: SPARQL Update WHERE clauses will be at least SPARQL 1.0 QUERY, with each feature 1.1 adds to SPARQL Query being AT RISK for this. This closes ISSUE-27
15:45:28 [chimezie]
Zakim, mute me
15:45:28 [Zakim]
Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted
15:46:00 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ISSUE-46
15:46:01 [trackbot]
ISSUE-46 Can INSERTS, DELETES, and other 'subupdates' be nested inside update language queries? closed
15:46:18 [bglimm]
... Sixth: Close issue-46, no action required since there was not and will not be any support for it
15:47:25 [bglimm]
... LeeF: regarding Issue 27: support for SPARQL 1.1 query WHERE clauses for UPDATE is optional
15:47:43 [bglimm]
... systems can support it but do not have to
15:47:53 [LeeF]
topic: next steps for editors
15:48:23 [bglimm]
LeeF: Editors have to move the documents forward
15:48:51 [bglimm]
... we have some reviews from FPWD, these should be incorporated in a timely fashion
15:49:09 [bglimm]
... comments should be answered
15:49:35 [bglimm]
... editors should request input from the WG for design decisions that are unclear
15:49:55 [bglimm]
.... editors should identify issues that need telecon time
15:50:17 [bglimm]
... chairs will sort out what is discussed in the telecon
15:50:40 [chimezie]
Zakim, unmute me
15:50:40 [Zakim]
Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted
15:50:43 [bglimm]
... is that ok with all editors?
15:51:05 [ivan]
15:51:18 [bglimm]
chimezie: How should we handle comments? Create a wiki page?
15:51:39 [LeeF]
ack ivan
15:51:40 [bglimm]
LeeF: How have other groups done that?
15:52:04 [bglimm]
Ivan: My experience from OWL is that we had a huge amount of comments
15:52:06 [AndyS]
Doc process. Makes sense to me and it is fine.
15:52:35 [bglimm]
.... people picked up a comment, produced a wiki page and people had a week to comment on the suggested reply from the wiki page
15:52:47 [bglimm]
... after a week without comments the reply is send out
15:53:11 [bglimm]
.... for Last Call we should also keep track of all the replies and also replies to the commens
15:53:18 [SteveH]
+1 to document process
15:54:03 [bglimm]
... The OWL group maintained a big table with references to comments, the replies and replies to replies and clearly identified were people were happy with the replies and where not
15:54:20 [bglimm]
LeeF: Can you provide a reference?
15:54:29 [bglimm]
Ivan: Give me a few minutes.
15:54:53 [Zakim]
15:54:59 [bglimm]
Sandro: Maybe at least the chairs should look over replies.
15:55:23 [sandro]
15:55:36 [bglimm]
LeeF: If you don't hear from anybody, you should explicitly ask me or Axel for feedback.
15:56:22 [bglimm]
LeeF: I would like to see whether we can set a target for next PWD.
15:56:43 [bglimm]
Ivan: Sandro pasted the link for OWL comments and responses
15:56:52 [Zakim]
15:56:52 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
15:56:53 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
15:57:18 [bglimm]
Ivan: That worked very well for the OWL group.
15:58:01 [bglimm]
LeeF: W3C heartbeat requires to publish every 3 month
15:58:15 [bglimm]
LeeF: Holidays in December are coming up
15:58:26 [bglimm]
... I would suggest middle of January
15:59:02 [bglimm]
... more polished, more complete documents with more issues resolved
15:59:04 [SteveH]
it should be possible, yes
15:59:16 [bglimm]
Fine with me
15:59:17 [kasei]
15:59:37 [chimezie]
works for me as well
15:59:59 [bglimm]
LeeF: Coming to an end, lets discuss what comes up on the mailing list
16:00:15 [Zakim]
16:00:16 [Zakim]
16:00:17 [Zakim]
16:00:18 [Zakim]
16:00:19 [Zakim]
16:00:21 [Zakim]
16:00:24 [Zakim]
16:00:26 [Zakim]
16:00:27 [Zakim]
16:00:30 [Zakim]
16:00:30 [bglimm]
/me What do I have to do to get the minutes published?
16:00:31 [Zakim]
16:00:33 [Zakim]
16:00:40 [Zakim]
16:00:46 [Zakim]
16:00:52 [Zakim]
16:01:33 [Zakim]
16:04:28 [bglimm]
bglimm has joined #sparql
16:04:31 [kasei]
LeeF? gromgull is looking for you on freenode in case you're free.
16:06:57 [Zakim]
16:06:58 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
16:06:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were bglimm, Sandro, AndyS, EricP, pgearon, kasei, LeeF, Ivan, +1.216.445.aaaa, john-l, AlexPassant, OlivierCorby, +1.574.905.aabb, dcharbon2, Orri, LukeWM, SteveH,
16:07:02 [Zakim]
... +035840564aacc, tommik, Prateek, Chimezie_Ogbuji
16:08:05 [dcharbon2]
16:33:55 [dcharbon2]
\msg AndyS should I set up a private chat space?
16:34:07 [dcharbon2]
sorry everyone...
16:39:57 [dcharbon2]
16:59:59 [LeeF]
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17:10:49 [LukeWM]
LukeWM has joined #sparql
17:44:44 [OlivierCorby]
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18:06:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sparql
18:15:04 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #sparql
19:56:31 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #sparql
20:01:08 [SteveH]
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