20:02:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:02:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/09-svg-irc
20:02:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:02:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:02:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:02:33 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
20:02:34 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:02:34 <trackbot> Date: 09 November 2009
20:03:42 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(svg)20:03Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 2103Z
20:04:04 <Zakim> Team_(svg)20:03Z has now started
20:04:05 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:04:20 <shepazu> Zakim, this will be SVG
20:04:20 <Zakim> ok, shepazu, I see Team_(svg)20:03Z already started
20:04:28 <Zakim> +??P3
20:04:53 <ed> Zakim, ??P3 is me
20:04:53 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:07:10 <Zakim> +??P4
20:07:19 <anthony> Zakim, ??P4 is me
20:07:19 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:11:33 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
20:11:46 <anthony> Chair: Erik
20:12:04 <anthony> Topic: CSS and SVG Filters
20:12:25 <ed_work> filter: <uri> | none | inherit | <shorthand>
20:12:36 <ed_work> <shorthand>: dropshadow(<shadow>) | grayscale | sepiatone | motionblur(<direction>, <length>[, <color>]) | flipX | flipY | glow(<color>[, <length>][, <length>])
20:12:46 <anthony> ED: I'm suggesting to add a new syntax for the filter property
20:12:46 <ed_work> <shadow>: (as defined in http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#text-shadow)
20:13:19 <anthony> ... It might be a good idea to have those short hands as elements as well
20:13:27 <anthony> ... some are really simple mappings
20:13:49 <anthony> ... some others might need to be a new element e.g. motion blur
20:14:06 <anthony> ... we sort of have motion blur, but not arbitrary
20:14:13 <anthony> ... not in any direction
20:14:39 <anthony> DS: So it will be primitive built on top of another primitive?
20:14:45 <anthony> ED: Probably
20:15:23 <anthony> ... Not sure either if it would be nice to have multiple changed effects
20:15:40 <anthony> ... like dropShadow, greyscale
20:16:00 <anthony> ... CSS could focus on various parts such as the boarder
20:16:10 <anthony> ... could use SVG params to map those
20:16:25 <anthony> ... could add different keyWords to the 'in' attributes
20:16:40 <anthony> ... could extend filters for CSS
20:17:09 <anthony> ... if you want to dropShadow the boarder and greyscale the image
20:17:35 <anthony> DS: Give multiple inputs using params syntax
20:17:52 <anthony> ED: I see the short hand as a quick way of doing things
20:18:16 <anthony> ... If the URI is used, need a way of passing parameters in
20:18:58 <anthony> DS: What if there were an feExclude element
20:23:37 <ed> <feDropShadow in="CSSBorder" stdDeviation="3"/>
20:24:34 <anthony> ... could use it to exclude various parts of the SVG when rendering them
20:25:05 <anthony> DS: Could extend the URI to be a list
20:25:11 <anthony> ... an ordered list
20:25:21 <anthony> ED: May want to chain the filter effects
20:25:38 <anthony> ... could want some of them as values and some elements
20:27:37 <anthony> AG: Regarding greyscale filter
20:28:05 <anthony> ... what do you think about the idea of colour preservation when applying a greyscale transform on an image
20:28:35 <anthony> ... e.g. preserving the colour of a red rose in a photo. The rest of the photo will go greyscale except for a certain area or colour
20:29:33 <anthony> ED: Might need a new element for that
20:29:46 <anthony> AG: Have to think about that one
20:30:13 <anthony> DS: I was talking about something similar with people at TPAC
20:30:22 <anthony> ... shift only a certain colour range
20:32:44 <anthony> AG: Was thinking of both, having a box around an area to preserve
20:32:53 <anthony> ... or a range of colours to preserver
20:33:38 <Zakim> -anthony
20:34:00 <Zakim> +??P0
20:34:21 <anthony> Zakim, ??P0 is me
20:34:21 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:35:11 <anthony> AG: Could find certain colour areas, then blur them
20:36:28 <anthony> ED: Can do that using clipping and filters together
20:37:03 <anthony> Topic: Parameters Specification
20:37:16 <anthony> ED: I'm curious about how this will effect the filters syntax
20:37:22 <eseidel> eseidel has joined #svg
20:37:26 <anthony> DS: I showed the parameters primer to the CSS working group
20:37:38 <anthony> ... which included two designers
20:38:19 <anthony> ... Everyone in CSS Working Group were really excited about this
20:38:36 <anthony> ... there were some issues, one of the issues pointed out by Dave S in Apple
20:38:44 <anthony> ... is where is the transformation happening?
20:38:59 <anthony> DS: I said it was happening client side
20:39:25 <anthony> ... he said then the question mark syntax is a server side syntax
20:39:41 <anthony> ... I didn't realise it was for server side processing
20:40:11 <anthony> ... need to come up with another syntax
20:40:27 <anthony> ... could use '#' type syntax
20:41:04 <anthony> ... I saw the '$'
20:41:14 <anthony> AG: I don't think the '$' is used
20:41:30 <anthony> DS: I spoke to some URI people about this
20:42:01 <anthony> ... and they didn't say you could specify how it's processed on the server side
20:42:06 <anthony> ... but in the context of SVG
20:42:18 <anthony> ... you could say it applies to parameters
20:42:41 <anthony> ... '$' is used to denote variables in some scripting languages
20:43:43 <anthony> ... if it was processed server side using the '?'
20:43:56 <anthony> ... could send the file to the client
20:44:54 <anthony> ... with a different delimiter browers could be smart about caching
20:45:04 <anthony> ED: I'm already using the '?' for some images
20:45:29 <anthony> DS: You are using SVG params?
20:45:38 <anthony> ED: Sort of. Problem is have to URL encode
20:45:51 <anthony> ... to pass in params
20:46:28 <anthony> ... Like I write something readable, then URL encode it and it becomes unreadable
20:47:31 <ed> ...or at least semi-unreadable, depending on what's in the params :)
20:47:43 <anthony> AG: Also consider '!', I don't think that is used
20:48:15 <anthony> DS: Anyone of those three ('?', '$', '!') sounds fine to me
20:48:31 <anthony> ... just need to investigate pros and cons of each
20:48:45 <anthony> ... CSS and SVG will be discussing params on public-fx
20:49:27 <anthony> ED: If you have a plug-in you'd probably only be able to send the params once
20:49:33 <anthony> ... because that's the way the API works
20:49:37 <anthony> ... if the implementation is all native
20:49:54 <anthony> ... then it's probably not all that difficult to keep track of the changes
20:50:41 <anthony> DS: This is possibly something that could be dealt with more specifically in HTML
20:51:23 <anthony> ... I suspect that plug-ins would like to get parameters updated
20:51:29 <anthony> ... Geolocation PAI
20:51:35 <anthony> s/PAI/API/
20:52:23 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to Talk to Julian R about plug-in API and changing parameters
20:52:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2689 - Talk to Julian R about plug-in API and changing parameters [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-16].
20:53:04 <shepazu> s/PAI/API updates, for example
20:53:31 <anthony> Topic: Face-to-face meeting
20:58:41 <anthony> AG: Just wondering when everyone is free
20:58:49 <anthony> ... in February
20:59:15 <anthony> ED: away 18th - 22nd Feb
21:00:08 <anthony> DS: conflict I was thinking about is in April
21:00:55 <anthony> ... late Jan is fine with me
21:01:01 <anthony> ED: Late Jan is with me as well
21:01:15 <anthony> DS: Not sure if Chris will be able to attend
21:02:03 <anthony> ... it would be good to have a co-located SVG/CSS face-to-face
21:02:12 <anthony> AG: Do you know when CSS is meeting again?
21:02:30 <anthony> DS: They did decide the dates, don't know what they are
21:02:44 <anthony> ... if we had a meeting in France
21:03:05 <anthony> ... that would allow Chris to attend
21:03:35 <anthony> ... could have overlapping meeting Mon - Wed for SVG and Wed - Fri for CSS
21:03:42 <anthony> ... if we could get XSL-FO in there
21:03:47 <anthony> ... that would be good
21:05:24 <anthony> ... XSL-FO is doing wrapping to arbitrary shapes
21:05:28 <anthony> ... we want to do this also
21:05:58 <anthony> ... I think this is something we should all be collaborating on
21:06:20 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to Find out when CSS is meeting
21:06:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2690 - Find out when CSS is meeting [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-16].
21:09:05 <anthony> Topic: SVG DOM
21:09:13 <anthony> DS: Been talking to alot of people about SVG DOM
21:10:34 <anthony> ... implementers, Brad Neuberg, Alex from Dojo
21:10:45 <anthony> ... it's pretty clear we need to change the SVG DOM at this point
21:10:50 <anthony> ... may need to change the DOM in general
21:11:00 <anthony> ... having an interface on every element
21:11:17 <anthony> ... even if there are not attributes seems overkill
21:11:25 <anthony> ... so I had the idea of having a DOM Summit
21:11:42 <anthony> ... who have experience in creating DOM
21:12:08 <anthony> ... people who would be targets implementers and authors
21:12:18 <anthony> ... have a two or three day summit
21:13:01 <anthony> ... to figure out a good design
21:13:12 <anthony> ... I already have offers to host it
21:13:28 <anthony> ... in California
21:13:41 <anthony> ... possibly in January
21:13:58 <anthony> ... which means we'd have a Feb face-to-face
21:17:11 <anthony> ... I'd want this to be an SVG DOM discussion
21:17:44 <anthony> ... we need to cater this for people in the Valley
21:18:08 <anthony> ... TC39 are interested
21:18:31 <anthony> ... (Technical Committee 39 of ECMA)
21:18:46 <anthony> ... A couple of things I'd like to cover
21:18:52 <anthony> ... an API that works for SVG and Canvas
21:19:27 <anthony> ... A math library that covers points and vectors in addition to matrices
21:19:40 <anthony> ... would solve a lot of layout and position problems
21:20:23 <anthony> ... trigonometric and geometric library
21:21:27 <anthony> ED: Should make sure that the CSS Transforms DOM and SVG Transforms DOM are compatible
21:21:57 <anthony> ... CSS Transforms spec defines new interfaces for getting to the transforms in the DOM
21:22:11 <anthony> ... which is different to SVG Transforms
21:22:37 <anthony> ... would be nice to use one Transform only
21:23:48 <anthony> DS: I talked to a bunch of people about a revised SMIL spec
21:25:04 <anthony> ... probably SMIRC (Synchronised Multimedia for Integrated Rendering and Capturing)
21:25:15 <anthony> ... largely based on SMIL
21:25:46 <anthony> ... stripped down SMIL that is profiled
21:26:11 <anthony> ... so it would probably happen as a task force between CSS, SVG and HTML
21:26:44 <anthony> ... would let us take a good look at use case and requirements
21:27:20 <anthony> ... would be tightening of wording and probably allow for SCXML to allow for state machine
21:27:37 <anthony> ... pretty clear to me that the SVG Working Group needs more resources
21:35:09 <Zakim> -ed
21:57:02 <Zakim> -anthony
21:57:10 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:57:12 <Zakim> Team_(svg)20:03Z has ended
21:57:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, ed, anthony
21:57:16 <anthony> Zakim, bye
21:57:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
21:57:21 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:57:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/09-svg-minutes.html anthony