IRC log of svg on 2009-11-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:02:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:02:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:02:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:02:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
20:02:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:02:33 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
20:02:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:02:34 [trackbot]
Date: 09 November 2009
20:03:42 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; conference Team_(svg)20:03Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 2103Z
20:04:04 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:03Z has now started
20:04:05 [Zakim]
20:04:20 [shepazu]
Zakim, this will be SVG
20:04:20 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu, I see Team_(svg)20:03Z already started
20:04:28 [Zakim]
20:04:53 [ed]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
20:04:53 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:07:10 [Zakim]
20:07:19 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P4 is me
20:07:19 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
20:11:33 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
20:11:46 [anthony]
Chair: Erik
20:12:04 [anthony]
Topic: CSS and SVG Filters
20:12:25 [ed_work]
filter: <uri> | none | inherit | <shorthand>
20:12:36 [ed_work]
<shorthand>: dropshadow(<shadow>) | grayscale | sepiatone | motionblur(<direction>, <length>[, <color>]) | flipX | flipY | glow(<color>[, <length>][, <length>])
20:12:46 [anthony]
ED: I'm suggesting to add a new syntax for the filter property
20:12:46 [ed_work]
<shadow>: (as defined in
20:13:19 [anthony]
... It might be a good idea to have those short hands as elements as well
20:13:27 [anthony]
... some are really simple mappings
20:13:49 [anthony]
... some others might need to be a new element e.g. motion blur
20:14:06 [anthony]
... we sort of have motion blur, but not arbitrary
20:14:13 [anthony]
... not in any direction
20:14:39 [anthony]
DS: So it will be primitive built on top of another primitive?
20:14:45 [anthony]
ED: Probably
20:15:23 [anthony]
... Not sure either if it would be nice to have multiple changed effects
20:15:40 [anthony]
... like dropShadow, greyscale
20:16:00 [anthony]
... CSS could focus on various parts such as the boarder
20:16:10 [anthony]
... could use SVG params to map those
20:16:25 [anthony]
... could add different keyWords to the 'in' attributes
20:16:40 [anthony]
... could extend filters for CSS
20:17:09 [anthony]
... if you want to dropShadow the boarder and greyscale the image
20:17:35 [anthony]
DS: Give multiple inputs using params syntax
20:17:52 [anthony]
ED: I see the short hand as a quick way of doing things
20:18:16 [anthony]
... If the URI is used, need a way of passing parameters in
20:18:58 [anthony]
DS: What if there were an feExclude element
20:23:37 [ed]
<feDropShadow in="CSSBorder" stdDeviation="3"/>
20:24:34 [anthony]
... could use it to exclude various parts of the SVG when rendering them
20:25:05 [anthony]
DS: Could extend the URI to be a list
20:25:11 [anthony]
... an ordered list
20:25:21 [anthony]
ED: May want to chain the filter effects
20:25:38 [anthony]
... could want some of them as values and some elements
20:27:37 [anthony]
AG: Regarding greyscale filter
20:28:05 [anthony]
... what do you think about the idea of colour preservation when applying a greyscale transform on an image
20:28:35 [anthony]
... e.g. preserving the colour of a red rose in a photo. The rest of the photo will go greyscale except for a certain area or colour
20:29:33 [anthony]
ED: Might need a new element for that
20:29:46 [anthony]
AG: Have to think about that one
20:30:13 [anthony]
DS: I was talking about something similar with people at TPAC
20:30:22 [anthony]
... shift only a certain colour range
20:32:44 [anthony]
AG: Was thinking of both, having a box around an area to preserve
20:32:53 [anthony]
... or a range of colours to preserver
20:33:38 [Zakim]
20:34:00 [Zakim]
20:34:21 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
20:34:21 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
20:35:11 [anthony]
AG: Could find certain colour areas, then blur them
20:36:28 [anthony]
ED: Can do that using clipping and filters together
20:37:03 [anthony]
Topic: Parameters Specification
20:37:16 [anthony]
ED: I'm curious about how this will effect the filters syntax
20:37:22 [eseidel]
eseidel has joined #svg
20:37:26 [anthony]
DS: I showed the parameters primer to the CSS working group
20:37:38 [anthony]
... which included two designers
20:38:19 [anthony]
... Everyone in CSS Working Group were really excited about this
20:38:36 [anthony]
... there were some issues, one of the issues pointed out by Dave S in Apple
20:38:44 [anthony]
... is where is the transformation happening?
20:38:59 [anthony]
DS: I said it was happening client side
20:39:25 [anthony]
... he said then the question mark syntax is a server side syntax
20:39:41 [anthony]
... I didn't realise it was for server side processing
20:40:11 [anthony]
... need to come up with another syntax
20:40:27 [anthony]
... could use '#' type syntax
20:41:04 [anthony]
... I saw the '$'
20:41:14 [anthony]
AG: I don't think the '$' is used
20:41:30 [anthony]
DS: I spoke to some URI people about this
20:42:01 [anthony]
... and they didn't say you could specify how it's processed on the server side
20:42:06 [anthony]
... but in the context of SVG
20:42:18 [anthony]
... you could say it applies to parameters
20:42:41 [anthony]
... '$' is used to denote variables in some scripting languages
20:43:43 [anthony]
... if it was processed server side using the '?'
20:43:56 [anthony]
... could send the file to the client
20:44:54 [anthony]
... with a different delimiter browers could be smart about caching
20:45:04 [anthony]
ED: I'm already using the '?' for some images
20:45:29 [anthony]
DS: You are using SVG params?
20:45:38 [anthony]
ED: Sort of. Problem is have to URL encode
20:45:51 [anthony]
... to pass in params
20:46:28 [anthony]
... Like I write something readable, then URL encode it and it becomes unreadable
20:47:31 [ed]
...or at least semi-unreadable, depending on what's in the params :)
20:47:43 [anthony]
AG: Also consider '!', I don't think that is used
20:48:15 [anthony]
DS: Anyone of those three ('?', '$', '!') sounds fine to me
20:48:31 [anthony]
... just need to investigate pros and cons of each
20:48:45 [anthony]
... CSS and SVG will be discussing params on public-fx
20:49:27 [anthony]
ED: If you have a plug-in you'd probably only be able to send the params once
20:49:33 [anthony]
... because that's the way the API works
20:49:37 [anthony]
... if the implementation is all native
20:49:54 [anthony]
... then it's probably not all that difficult to keep track of the changes
20:50:41 [anthony]
DS: This is possibly something that could be dealt with more specifically in HTML
20:51:23 [anthony]
... I suspect that plug-ins would like to get parameters updated
20:51:29 [anthony]
... Geolocation PAI
20:51:35 [anthony]
20:52:23 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Talk to Julian R about plug-in API and changing parameters
20:52:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2689 - Talk to Julian R about plug-in API and changing parameters [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-16].
20:53:04 [shepazu]
s/PAI/API updates, for example
20:53:31 [anthony]
Topic: Face-to-face meeting
20:58:41 [anthony]
AG: Just wondering when everyone is free
20:58:49 [anthony]
... in February
20:59:15 [anthony]
ED: away 18th - 22nd Feb
21:00:08 [anthony]
DS: conflict I was thinking about is in April
21:00:55 [anthony]
... late Jan is fine with me
21:01:01 [anthony]
ED: Late Jan is with me as well
21:01:15 [anthony]
DS: Not sure if Chris will be able to attend
21:02:03 [anthony]
... it would be good to have a co-located SVG/CSS face-to-face
21:02:12 [anthony]
AG: Do you know when CSS is meeting again?
21:02:30 [anthony]
DS: They did decide the dates, don't know what they are
21:02:44 [anthony]
... if we had a meeting in France
21:03:05 [anthony]
... that would allow Chris to attend
21:03:35 [anthony]
... could have overlapping meeting Mon - Wed for SVG and Wed - Fri for CSS
21:03:42 [anthony]
... if we could get XSL-FO in there
21:03:47 [anthony]
... that would be good
21:05:24 [anthony]
... XSL-FO is doing wrapping to arbitrary shapes
21:05:28 [anthony]
... we want to do this also
21:05:58 [anthony]
... I think this is something we should all be collaborating on
21:06:20 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to Find out when CSS is meeting
21:06:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2690 - Find out when CSS is meeting [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-16].
21:09:05 [anthony]
Topic: SVG DOM
21:09:13 [anthony]
DS: Been talking to alot of people about SVG DOM
21:10:34 [anthony]
... implementers, Brad Neuberg, Alex from Dojo
21:10:45 [anthony]
... it's pretty clear we need to change the SVG DOM at this point
21:10:50 [anthony]
... may need to change the DOM in general
21:11:00 [anthony]
... having an interface on every element
21:11:17 [anthony]
... even if there are not attributes seems overkill
21:11:25 [anthony]
... so I had the idea of having a DOM Summit
21:11:42 [anthony]
... who have experience in creating DOM
21:12:08 [anthony]
... people who would be targets implementers and authors
21:12:18 [anthony]
... have a two or three day summit
21:13:01 [anthony]
... to figure out a good design
21:13:12 [anthony]
... I already have offers to host it
21:13:28 [anthony]
... in California
21:13:41 [anthony]
... possibly in January
21:13:58 [anthony]
... which means we'd have a Feb face-to-face
21:17:11 [anthony]
... I'd want this to be an SVG DOM discussion
21:17:44 [anthony]
... we need to cater this for people in the Valley
21:18:08 [anthony]
... TC39 are interested
21:18:31 [anthony]
... (Technical Committee 39 of ECMA)
21:18:46 [anthony]
... A couple of things I'd like to cover
21:18:52 [anthony]
... an API that works for SVG and Canvas
21:19:27 [anthony]
... A math library that covers points and vectors in addition to matrices
21:19:40 [anthony]
... would solve a lot of layout and position problems
21:20:23 [anthony]
... trigonometric and geometric library
21:21:27 [anthony]
ED: Should make sure that the CSS Transforms DOM and SVG Transforms DOM are compatible
21:21:57 [anthony]
... CSS Transforms spec defines new interfaces for getting to the transforms in the DOM
21:22:11 [anthony]
... which is different to SVG Transforms
21:22:37 [anthony]
... would be nice to use one Transform only
21:23:48 [anthony]
DS: I talked to a bunch of people about a revised SMIL spec
21:25:04 [anthony]
... probably SMIRC (Synchronised Multimedia for Integrated Rendering and Capturing)
21:25:15 [anthony]
... largely based on SMIL
21:25:46 [anthony]
... stripped down SMIL that is profiled
21:26:11 [anthony]
... so it would probably happen as a task force between CSS, SVG and HTML
21:26:44 [anthony]
... would let us take a good look at use case and requirements
21:27:20 [anthony]
... would be tightening of wording and probably allow for SCXML to allow for state machine
21:27:37 [anthony]
... pretty clear to me that the SVG Working Group needs more resources
21:35:09 [Zakim]
21:57:02 [Zakim]
21:57:10 [Zakim]
21:57:12 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:03Z has ended
21:57:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shepazu, ed, anthony
21:57:16 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
21:57:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
21:57:21 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:57:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anthony