IRC log of video on 2009-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:11:13 [silvia]
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silvia has changed the topic to: TPAC 09 HTML Working Group "HTML5 Video" breakout group, meeting FRI 10am, topics: http://bit.ly/4fMyto
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-irc
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18:11:31 [silvia]
silvia has changed the topic to: TPAC 09 HTML Working Group "HTML5 Video" breakout group, meeting FRI 10am, topics: http://bit.ly/3sHMcT
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scribenick: timeless
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18:12:43 [MikeSmith]
Topic: Video
18:12:46 [timeless]
Sylvia: ...
18:12:52 [timeless]
Topic: Video Breakout Session
18:13:05 [timeless]
Sylvia: What we're going to do is go through this document from top to bottom
18:13:07 [MikeSmith]
meeting: HTML WG face to face, Santa Clara - video session
18:13:15 [plh]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty/TPACSession#head-791e3205ef073305f38ecb15244f822545c6c051
18:13:16 [timeless]
... <http://bit.ly/3sHMcT>
18:13:17 [Bryan_Sullivan]
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18:13:24 [timeless]
... let's start with baseline codecs
18:13:30 [timeless]
Carlos Cardona:
18:13:41 [timeless]
Carlos Cardona: ... I was wondering what the intention was
18:13:51 [adrianba]
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18:13:52 [timeless]
Sylvia: I think the right person is hiding
18:13:59 [timeless]
Dave Singer: from apple
18:14:16 [timeless]
... I think the general consensus is we want a guaranteed fallback
18:14:25 [timeless]
... unfortunately it's been a one on one discussion
18:14:30 [glenn]
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18:14:46 [timeless]
... we want something that's easy to deploy
18:14:50 [timeless]
... for mobile terminals
18:14:58 [timeless]
... we want to address royalty free IPR
18:15:11 [timeless]
... generally, we're looking for something a little boring
18:15:16 [timeless]
... i'm continuing to work with other companies
18:15:29 [timeless]
... and trying to convince them that there's value working with us
18:15:35 [timeless]
... i've seen movement
18:15:37 [timeless]
... but it's slow
18:15:56 [timeless]
... sam asked, what process do we propose to how we're going to resolve this issue
18:16:02 [timeless]
... it's really frustrating
18:16:17 [timeless]
... i'm as frustrated as everyone else in this room
18:16:19 [timeless]
... given the source fallback capability
18:16:24 [timeless]
... i think we're looking for the final fallback
18:16:29 [kohei]
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18:16:33 [timeless]
... you can put your preferred format
18:16:40 [timeless]
... but then you can put the fallback codec
18:16:41 [kford]
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18:16:59 [timeless]
plh: is it worth spending our time on a codec
18:17:20 [timeless]
... that we know is only going to satisfy some portion of the audience
18:17:29 [timeless]
dsinger: I think it's very important
18:17:46 [timeless]
... and there's a large portion of the world who is just wants something that works
18:17:49 [timeless]
Adrian Baker: microsoft
18:17:55 [timeless]
... I agree with everything David said
18:18:04 [MikeSmith]
s/Baker/Bateman/
18:18:08 [timeless]
... the only thing i question is whether it's feasible to describe a process
18:18:15 [timeless]
Adrian Bateman: ...
18:18:21 [MikeSmith]
q?
18:18:31 [timeless]
... that goes about doing this
18:18:38 [timeless]
... given that it really involves one to one discussion
18:18:51 [timeless]
... the only way to have a process is when you have multiple options
18:18:56 [timeless]
Sylvia: ...
18:19:04 [timeless]
... to talk about a process
18:19:12 [timeless]
... would be putting back a call for proposals
18:19:19 [timeless]
... for things which satisfy all requirements
18:19:25 [timeless]
... i'm not sure it's really workable
18:19:32 [MichaelC]
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18:19:43 [timeless]
... i'm sure that behind closed doors, there's another ... that's being proposed
18:19:46 [timeless]
plh: about process
18:19:56 [timeless]
... i'm not going to create a group
18:20:04 [timeless]
... unless i know people will join the group
18:20:15 [timeless]
... and if the group of people who would join the group
18:20:22 [timeless]
... is different from the group of people in html5
18:20:33 [timeless]
... then i'm not sure if there's a point
18:20:41 [timeless]
... the amount of resources to create an open call
18:20:50 [timeless]
... from the w3c is very significant
18:20:59 [timeless]
... including closing it
18:21:04 [timeless]
syliva: hearing that
18:21:11 [timeless]
... it would have to come out of the html5 group?
18:21:27 [timeless]
David: I think you don't want to issue a question for which you don't want to hear the answer
18:21:35 [timeless]
Carlos: ...
18:21:41 [timeless]
... if we do find a codec, moving forward
18:21:53 [timeless]
... do we still intend to keep the <source> element that descends from <video> ?
18:21:57 [timeless]
sylvia: Yes
18:22:08 [timeless]
... I think baseline codecs are likely to be lower level
18:22:14 [timeless]
Hixie: forget codec
18:22:17 [dsinger]
people interested in this topic and who feel that they can help are welcome to contact me...
18:22:26 [timeless]
... we still need things for multiple resolutions, black and white, flicker/no flicker
18:22:27 [dsinger]
or indeed work on it separately
18:22:28 [timeless]
sylvia: ...
18:22:34 [timeless]
... next point
18:22:40 [timeless]
... Q-ranges
18:22:45 [timeless]
... about the requirements around these
18:22:53 [timeless]
... and how we satisfy the requirements around them
18:23:02 [timeless]
... i've heard the requirements are around multiple cases
18:23:11 [timeless]
[ UPS arrives ]
18:23:38 [timeless]
David: who can give a summary about q ranges?
18:23:47 [timeless]
Hixie: I don't know that there's much to summarize
18:23:52 [timeless]
... we had things in the spec
18:23:55 [timeless]
... there were concerned raised
18:23:59 [Gondo]
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18:24:00 [timeless]
... i think it was safer to remove it
18:24:06 [frankolivier]
cue ranges, not q ranges
18:24:13 [timeless]
... i think there were other parts of the api
18:24:19 [timeless]
s/q-ranges/cue ranges/g
18:24:24 [timeless]
s/q ranges/cue ranges/g
18:24:36 [timeless]
Sylvia: ...
18:24:50 [timeless]
... i think there were questions about if it was sufficient
18:25:00 [timeless]
Hixie: for pausing it was (?) sufficient
18:25:09 [timeless]
... apart from that was the main reason was for time updates
18:25:16 [timeless]
... say you have a slide show
18:25:27 [timeless]
... and you're trying to keep the relevant slide showing
18:25:35 [timeless]
... and when you enter/exit a range you show/hide the slide
18:25:49 [timeless]
... it works for both backwards and forwards progression
18:25:58 [timeless]
... with cue ranges you get this for free
18:26:17 [timeless]
... if you use time elements, you have to do this yourself
18:26:19 [timeless]
David: ...
18:26:30 [timeless]
dsinger: one of the nice thing about cue ranges is that it's sensitive to processing power
18:26:38 [timeless]
... i'm not a fan of time updates
18:27:00 [timeless]
... i'm much more a fan of cue ranges as they're much more friendly to processing power
18:27:07 [timeless]
sylvia: what was the problem?
18:27:12 [timeless]
dsinger: it wasn't implemented
18:27:18 [timeless]
Frank: Microsoft
18:27:29 [timeless]
Eric Carlson: ...
18:27:35 [timeless]
... david made a proposal to the mailinglist
18:27:39 [timeless]
... a way to do cue ranges
18:27:51 [timeless]
... declaratively (it until then was javascript only)
18:27:54 [timeless]
... to the dom
18:27:58 [timeless]
s/dom/DOM/
18:28:09 [timeless]
... the feedback that we got from the implementors at Opera
18:28:20 [timeless]
... was that they were also unhappy about a JavaScript only API as well
18:28:35 [timeless]
Sylvia: was the proposal with attributes?
18:28:44 [timeless]
eric_carlson: no, it was with events, as opposed to callbacks
18:29:01 [timeless]
Hixie: when we use captions as opposed to in file captions
18:29:18 [timeless]
... there are two ways to do captions, in the video file, or completely separate with javascript
18:29:30 [timeless]
... the solution to this going forward, is supporting out of file captions
18:29:35 [timeless]
... and to have an API that binds to that
18:29:46 [timeless]
sylvia: maybe we can leave cue ranges here
18:29:55 [timeless]
... or does anyone else have anything else on them?
18:30:07 [timeless]
[ topic: Accessibility Video/Audio, media ]
18:30:16 [timeless]
sylvia: I've got the list of related bugs here
18:30:22 [yofukami]
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[ screen, url, scribe doesn't have ]
18:30:33 [timeless]
sylvia: we had a big discussion sunday
18:30:35 [MikeSmith]
Topic: Accessibility Video/Audio, media
18:30:42 [timeless]
... i'll call on john folley to give this
18:30:54 [timeless]
John: on sunday everyone had an opportunity to say what they were looking for
18:30:55 [MikeSmith]
s/folley/Foliot
18:31:03 [timeless]
... we didn't get an opportunity to work things out
18:31:08 [timeless]
... there's an issue about time line
18:31:12 [timeless]
... in terms of controlling time line
18:31:22 [timeless]
... the time stamping format needs to be further discussed
18:31:33 [timeless]
... at this point, we need to move forward with discussion
18:31:41 [timeless]
sylvia: i think what we need to do here
18:31:49 [timeless]
... is move to a list of requirements
18:32:03 [timeless]
... people are encouraged to start experimenting and propose solutions
18:32:15 [timeless]
dsinger: what we're trying to do here is get things on the wiki
18:32:20 [Laura]
Multimedia Accessibility <Audio> <Video>
18:32:21 [Laura]
Multimedia Accessibility <Audio> <Video>
18:32:22 [timeless]
... there were two actions I took away
18:32:30 [Laura]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty/TPACSession#head-791e3205ef073305f38ecb15244f822545c6c051
18:32:30 [timeless]
... one was using media queries to select a source
18:32:39 [timeless]
... there seemed to be general consensus on this
18:32:45 [timeless]
... the css wg seemed to agree
18:32:55 [timeless]
... they suggested working with the XX? WG
18:33:02 [timeless]
... that's an action item
18:33:09 [timeless]
... to look at the accessibility
18:33:15 [timeless]
... to have the accessibility in the media files
18:33:17 [jallan]
s/XX?/PFWG
18:33:21 [timeless]
... the other item
18:33:26 [timeless]
... was looking at non type fallback
18:33:36 [timeless]
... e.g. warning about "could induce seizures"
18:33:48 [timeless]
... i'm going to work with Ian on working on what to put into the spec
18:34:04 [timeless]
... i suspect this might relate to what do you do when you print a page on a media surface that doesn't support things
18:34:06 [timeless]
... the third item
18:34:18 [timeless]
... was there was general consensus that we should use ARIA to link to a transcript
18:34:28 [timeless]
... James Craig said he would take an action to come up with text on that
18:34:37 [timeless]
... what I want to do is come up with a best practices
18:34:44 [timeless]
... there's stuff you should be aware of in CSS and ARIA
18:34:54 [timeless]
... so that someone interested can go to a single place
18:35:05 [timeless]
... because right now it's spread across multiple specifications
18:35:15 [timeless]
sylvia: if i could go on from there to the more general accessibility task for
18:35:19 [timeless]
s/for/force/
18:35:38 [timeless]
... within the accessibility task force, we would create a general document about video accessibility
18:35:45 [timeless]
John: ...
18:35:54 [timeless]
the task force hasn't had enough time to figure out logistics
18:36:02 [timeless]
s/the/... the/
18:36:17 [timeless]
... I haven't had a discussion within the task force
18:36:21 [timeless]
... we will probably have a space within the wiki
18:36:29 [timeless]
sylvia: genina(?)
18:36:56 [timeless]
s/genina/jenina/
18:36:58 [timeless]
Jenina: there's an html-wg, we're operating under this for IPR
18:37:08 [timeless]
... we should have a process and resources set up fairly quickly
18:37:16 [timeless]
Glen Goldstein: from MTV networks
18:37:26 [timeless]
... before we move on to video ...
18:37:29 [jallan]
s/Jenina/Janina
18:37:36 [timeless]
s/jenina/Janina/g
18:37:48 [timeless]
... we want to have a way to suggest multiple audio tracks
18:37:55 [timeless]
... for things like secondary audio programming
18:38:04 [timeless]
Janina: ipv6
18:38:17 [timeless]
... there's both a problem and an opportunity
18:38:29 [timeless]
... about how you provide access to types of content
18:38:38 [timeless]
... there's a lot of opportunity
18:38:49 [timeless]
s/ipv6/similar to an earlier discussion about ipv6/
18:38:55 [timeless]
... i'm also excited about this
18:39:05 [timeless]
... as people mentioned, you don't need to be in a wheel chair to appreciate a curb cut
18:39:15 [timeless]
Glen: is there enough support in the spec
18:39:22 [timeless]
... to support sources from multiple files
18:39:36 [timeless]
eric_carlson: no, there is not
18:39:40 [timeless]
... it's technically very hard
18:39:41 [timeless]
q?
18:39:48 [timeless]
Doug: that problem is addressed by SMIL
18:40:03 [timeless]
sylvia: though people on sunday said it isn't really solved by SMIL
18:40:08 [timeless]
... it's just declared by SMIL
18:40:20 [timeless]
... synchronizing files from multiple servers
18:40:23 [timeless]
... is hard
18:40:32 [timeless]
Glen: at least there's a start
18:40:43 [timeless]
Janina: you can't guarantee success, but you can provide an opportunity
18:40:50 [timeless]
Doug: Time containers let you try to solve that
18:40:57 [timeless]
... solving it at a network level is another issue
18:41:16 [timeless]
Sylvia: if we rely on a separate file, then SMIL ....
18:41:39 [timeless]
... if the description of how to compose the media experience
18:41:39 [Kai]
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18:41:42 [timeless]
... is in a separate file
18:41:47 [timeless]
... then it's a further indirection
18:41:59 [timeless]
doug: you could simply bring the syntax into HTML, as we did for SVG
18:42:19 [timeless]
Glen: there's a similar discussion, as with multi rate streaming
18:42:27 [timeless]
... the same theme will keep coming up
18:42:42 [timeless]
Sylvia: coming from the point of view
18:42:47 [timeless]
... there is a solution for doing multi track
18:42:52 [timeless]
... with multiple controls
18:42:56 [timeless]
... with multiple time lines
18:43:03 [timeless]
... which has been standardized by the w3c
18:43:11 [timeless]
... not looking at the actual requirements
18:43:15 [timeless]
... and just trying to push it in
18:43:27 [timeless]
... there have been multiple people saying that SMIL is too compicated
18:43:33 [timeless]
... and that we shouldn't push it into HTML
18:43:43 [timeless]
eric_carlson: not if you want multiple implementations in reasonable time
18:43:55 [timeless]
Sylvia: the question is whether it could be a profile of SMIL
18:44:02 [timeless]
... there are all kinds of issues relating to that
18:44:05 [timeless]
... who specifies it
18:44:10 [timeless]
... or do we look at it from the requirements
18:44:17 [timeless]
Doug: sync based v. event based timing
18:44:32 [timeless]
... are already being put into Mozilla, Safari and Opera
18:44:41 [timeless]
... are being done for SVG
18:44:55 [timeless]
eric_carlson: having an implementation of those that works for non time based media
18:45:03 [timeless]
... is much less challenging than making it work for time based media
18:45:08 [timeless]
... maintaining sync
18:45:18 [timeless]
Doug: there is an animation timeline
18:45:24 [timeless]
... is that different from the media timeline?
18:45:25 [timeless]
eric_carlson: yes
18:45:33 [timeless]
sylvia: moving on in the agenda
18:45:43 [timeless]
... looking at it from what other work
18:45:55 [timeless]
... what are other requirements for solving accessibility
18:46:01 [timeless]
... was caption and subtitle support
18:46:07 [timeless]
... and how to do that with SMIL
18:46:18 [timeless]
... i encourage people who want to solve it with SMIL to propose a solution
18:46:24 [timeless]
... maybe it's possible to do it straight out of HTML
18:46:29 [timeless]
... I encourage people to make proposals
18:46:40 [timeless]
... People are probably aware of the itech(?) specification
18:46:59 [timeless]
... I think we all agree at the need for a declarative syntax for linking external files into html
18:47:07 [timeless]
Synthia Shelley: Microsoft
18:47:16 [timeless]
... I was wondering if that includes audio description and sign language
18:47:24 [timeless]
Sylvia: I think that's later in our agenda
18:47:34 [timeless]
... then there is the option with the declarative syntax
18:47:45 [timeless]
... in the itech element, there's a reference to an external file
18:47:51 [timeless]
... that doesn't get loaded into the DOM
18:47:56 [timeless]
... but provides a javascript API
18:47:57 [frankolivier]
itext, not itech
18:48:02 [timeless]
s/itech/itext/g
18:48:09 [kford]
We should think about wheether accessibility settings should be called accessibility. Many segments of the population wh
18:48:13 [timeless]
... but we could provide a way to load it into the DOM
18:48:17 [frankolivier]
itext spec: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/HTML5_captions
18:48:24 [timeless]
s/wheether/whether/
18:48:25 [kford]
who could benefit don't think in terms of accessibility.
18:48:39 [timeless]
[thanks to frank for dropping the link]
18:48:59 [timeless]
sylvia: an action item to me is to put stuff relating to itext into the wiki
18:49:11 [timeless]
... i have multiple versions, and i'll describe it into the wiki
18:49:16 [timeless]
frankolivier: re itext
18:49:31 [timeless]
... you're describing all of the external bits of a file into an html document
18:49:42 [timeless]
... this is similar to what we do for an actual video itself
18:49:54 [timeless]
... so if you're a user agent, you don't have to open the file to get the info
18:50:06 [Laura]
User Roles and Cases
18:50:07 [Laura]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty#head-c5d0ca60246df93bceaca431df464168bfa0e0af
18:50:07 [timeless]
... this is similar to how video is handled
18:50:21 [timeless]
[ sylvia shows an example of an itext document ]
18:50:31 [timeless]
[ sylvia describes it ]
18:50:41 [timeless]
sylvia: ... charsets ...
18:51:09 [timeless]
sylvia: what formats should we support for captions and subtitles
18:51:14 [timeless]
... what formats are important
18:51:20 [timeless]
... beyond the tree i've already listed
18:51:26 [timeless]
... requirements, and reasons for choosing each one
18:51:39 [timeless]
... we'll get into a similar discussion as with baseline formats for codecs
18:51:44 [timeless]
Glen: timed text in general
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18:51:49 [timeless]
... DFXP is one possible profile
18:52:02 [timeless]
... SMPTE ...
18:52:07 [timeless]
... motion picture television ...
18:52:20 [timeless]
... SMPTE is one possible, it's compatible
18:52:29 [timeless]
... the broadcast industry is looking to embrace this
18:52:38 [cyns]
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18:52:49 [timeless]
... Shawn Hayes from microsoft is leading the effort
18:53:00 [timeless]
... he says it has minor differences from DFXP
18:53:16 [timeless]
... there's internal work at this point
18:53:33 [timeless]
... and i think that will put the major domestic broadcasters into one format
18:53:41 [timeless]
plh: there's a minor time issue
18:53:56 [timeless]
sylvia: i don't think we'll have completely solved our caption issues by the end of the year
18:54:04 [timeless]
frankolivier: the other thing about DFXP is
18:54:11 [timeless]
... they support picture overlays
18:54:22 [timeless]
... existing binary, like flash, support DFXP already today
18:54:32 [timeless]
sylvia: i look at these issues from two perspectives
18:54:37 [timeless]
... from the professional community
18:54:43 [timeless]
... and also from the web community
18:54:52 [timeless]
... people out there, exchanging data
18:55:06 [timeless]
... it might be that within html we might propose implementing two
18:55:09 [timeless]
... SRT ...
18:55:18 [timeless]
... the free tools covert SRT
18:55:27 [timeless]
glenn: there's no reason not to support it
18:55:35 [timeless]
sylvia: exactly, it's trivial to implement
18:55:41 [timeless]
... SRT as a baseline format
18:55:46 [timeless]
... I have nothing against DFXP
18:55:54 [timeless]
... if there are enough people to write tools
18:56:05 [timeless]
... it might be the right thing for a professional level
18:56:18 [timeless]
... for things like Color and Italics
18:56:20 [timeless]
... these are things that SRT does not support
18:56:24 [timeless]
... there's also been a suggestion of SMIL TEXT
18:56:33 [timeless]
... I don't know how SMIL TEXT differs from the other
18:56:41 [timeless]
glenn: I would say W3 timed text support
18:56:59 [timeless]
sylvia: when I say DFXP, I mean W3 timed text
18:57:02 [timeless]
glenn: ... and however many profiles come out of it
18:57:14 [timeless]
... it's a subset of timed text
18:57:28 [timeless]
... it will recreate enough to recreate timed captioning
18:58:10 [timeless]
sylvia: open captions should be a thing of the past
18:58:16 [timeless]
... and we don't want to talk about it anymore
18:58:29 [timeless]
... i'm surprised we don't have a more lively discussion about baseline text
18:58:46 [timeless]
.... even DFXP is comparatively is much simpler compared to video
18:58:48 [timeless]
Matt May: ...
18:58:56 [timeless]
... I'll say that SRT is basically a subset of Timed Text
18:59:04 [timeless]
... it satisfies the basic requirements
18:59:19 [timeless]
... it has what to do when a caption enters and exits
18:59:30 [timeless]
... I wouldn't recommend that SRT be the lingua franca
18:59:38 [timeless]
... I wouldn't object to it existing
18:59:48 [timeless]
... in the flash implementation there are a number of SRT solutions
19:00:03 [timeless]
eric_carlson: I'm not sure it makes sense to mandate SRT
19:00:11 [timeless]
... It's common enough, but underspecified
19:00:26 [timeless]
... someone would have to write a spec for SRT
19:00:33 [timeless]
sylvia: there's actually a proper web site for it
19:00:38 [timeless]
.... there isn't a spec
19:00:44 [timeless]
... what we really need is a registered mime type
19:00:49 [timeless]
... i don't think srt would be a major issue
19:01:08 [timeless]
dsinger: I think it would be a great thing that XIPH take over
19:01:14 [timeless]
sylvia: so, Apple ...
19:01:21 [timeless]
frankolivier: and Microsoft
19:01:25 [timeless]
sylvia: are here
19:01:48 [timeless]
frankolivier: I would say that SRT and DFXP are .., things that could be supported
19:01:55 [timeless]
Hixie: Google ...
19:02:05 [timeless]
... as we support OGG and MPEG
19:02:11 [timeless]
... will go for a superset
19:02:16 [timeless]
glenn: there's also text as image
19:02:26 [timeless]
... where all you've got is a rasterized format
19:02:38 [timeless]
sylvia: that's the bitmap overlay that frank mentioned
19:02:47 [timeless]
plh: i don't think the accessibility will be appeased
19:02:59 [timeless]
dsinger: if your choice is nothing at all or open captions
19:03:16 [timeless]
Matt May (adobe):
19:03:20 [timeless]
Matt May (adobe): ...
19:03:27 [timeless]
... i'll give an example
19:03:32 [timeless]
... that's what's in most DVDs
19:03:44 [timeless]
... it doesn't work for translations
19:03:53 [timeless]
glenn: the good thing, is that this won't be burned in
19:04:08 [timeless]
Janina: the accessibility will be that it's not specified in such a way that you can easily cheat
19:04:27 [timeless]
Matt: the motion picture industry will like to do that
19:04:41 [timeless]
Janina: no disagreement about supporting as many languages as we can
19:04:52 [plh]
q?
19:04:53 [MikeSmith]
q?
19:05:05 [timeless]
sylvia: there was general agreement that bitmap captions that can be turned off
19:05:15 [timeless]
... that can be turned on and off, are better than no text
19:05:20 [timeless]
... there was violent agreement
19:05:23 [timeless]
Jim Allen: ...
19:05:24 [MichaelC]
s/Synthia/Cynthia/
19:05:38 [timeless]
... general question, is the bitmap a single standard format?
19:05:46 [timeless]
s/Synthia/Cynthia/g
19:05:53 [timeless]
... is there only one format?
19:05:57 [Hixie]
correction to my statement above: i was just saying google would _probably_ support the union of the formats supported by the other vendors
19:05:58 [timeless]
... so we have one tool
19:06:17 [timeless]
glenn: I believe it's BMP
19:06:33 [timeless]
sylvia: something that would be supported by the browser and easily overlayed
19:06:40 [timeless]
... while we're talking about the browser
19:06:47 [timeless]
... i think we should also talk about security issues
19:07:08 [timeless]
... there are issues about html accepting markup external from the web page
19:07:21 [timeless]
eric_carlson: i'm not sure that's so much of an issue
19:07:28 [timeless]
... the security issue we'll have to deal with at some point
19:07:40 [timeless]
... is the case when we have a media file with captions from inside the file
19:07:44 [foolip]
foolip has joined #video
19:07:51 [timeless]
... which is loaded from a different domain than the script
19:08:02 [timeless]
... and we won't be able to provide access to the information
19:08:13 [timeless]
... something could then override the information
19:08:19 [timeless]
Hixie: the issue I'm worried about
19:08:38 [timeless]
... is being able to link to subtitles from another domai
19:08:41 [foolip]
is there a realtime log where I can catch up what I've missed?
19:08:41 [timeless]
s/domai/domain/
19:08:47 [timeless]
RRSAgent: make minutes
19:08:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html timeless
19:09:09 [timeless]
.... but that's solvable by restricting domain and then using CORS to reenable it
19:09:14 [timeless]
eric_carlson: that's solvable
19:09:22 [timeless]
... but we'll have to apply cross domain rules
19:09:35 [timeless]
... there's possible that meta data in the page or loaded from a different domain
19:09:52 [timeless]
... is accessible from the script, but not the data that was in the video
19:10:02 [timeless]
... script won't have access to metadata within the media file
19:10:14 [timeless]
... the browser will want to ....render meta data
19:10:26 [timeless]
... but it will have to have rules, which wins, meta data in the file
19:10:30 [timeless]
... or meta data outside the file
19:10:38 [timeless]
... meta data tagged with the same language
19:10:53 [timeless]
Hixie: a video file with English captions, and an external file with English captions
19:11:19 [timeless]
eric_carlson: and when there's script, and only one of them is script accessible to the script
19:11:35 [timeless]
sylvia: you can display the video, but not the meta data
19:11:41 [timeless]
eric_carlson: or useragent can render the metadata
19:11:47 [timeless]
... but it can't provide it to script
19:11:57 [timeless]
sylvia: we had this discussion earlier
19:12:02 [timeless]
... the question about which wins
19:12:05 [timeless]
... is a rights issue
19:12:15 [timeless]
... when someone publishes a video with a subtitle track
19:12:20 [timeless]
... they expect it to be shown
19:12:30 [timeless]
... when someone else associated track
19:12:37 [timeless]
... from a legal issue
19:12:44 [timeless]
... but a user might want to use the other one
19:12:55 [timeless]
Janina: but a user might prefer that other one
19:13:08 [timeless]
Hixie: and we can't actually stop it, because javascript could overwrite it
19:13:19 [timeless]
doug: ... alternate sources of media
19:13:30 [timeless]
... i know we are loath to specify user interface elements
19:13:43 [timeless]
sylvia: you're saying that the user could choose
19:13:54 [timeless]
doug: we pick one
19:14:04 [timeless]
... but the UA provides a way to indicate alternates
19:14:22 [timeless]
eric_carlson: that will work as long as author specifies the built in controls are available
19:14:25 [MikeSmith]
q?
19:14:38 [timeless]
Jim Allen: cochair User Agent WG
19:14:55 [timeless]
... we have specific success criteria dealing with the user being informed about multiple forms of a file
19:14:59 [timeless]
... as opposed to a default
19:15:06 [timeless]
... now whether that ever is implemented in a player
19:15:12 [timeless]
... standalone players like quicktime do this
19:15:25 [foolip]
403 Sorry, Insufficient Access Privileges on http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html (yes, I'm logged in)
19:15:27 [timeless]
... within a browser, the user agent should expose this, and the user should be able to pick an override
19:15:37 [timeless]
[sylvia shows a demo ]
19:16:07 [timeless]
Matt: ...
19:16:15 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:16:19 [timeless]
... as far as copyright goes
19:16:20 [timeless]
... that's not a concern for the working group
19:16:25 [timeless]
... until there's a concrete example
19:16:46 [timeless]
... my greatest concern is that a content provider that makes an internal thing where the caption attribute is null
19:16:51 [timeless]
... and that locks out external captions
19:16:58 [timeless]
Doug: [nothing to say]
19:17:10 [timeless]
dsinger: what do we need to specify so it's possible for a user to link their own choices
19:17:13 [timeless]
... to a video
19:17:17 [timeless]
... do we need to specify it
19:17:25 [timeless]
... the other question, is what do we do about language accessibility
19:17:33 [timeless]
... mostly punted by html
19:17:34 [MikeSmith]
foolip, please try again
19:17:43 [foolip]
MikeSmith: thanks, work fine now
19:17:49 [timeless]
RRSAgent: make minutes
19:17:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html timeless
19:18:17 [timeless]
Topic: Display Activation Issues with Caption Subtitles
19:18:34 [timeless]
sylvia: we have a need to manage display activation, somehow
19:18:45 [timeless]
... there is a need for people to be able to specify whether they want captions automatically
19:18:56 [timeless]
... that could be done by adding user preferences in the browser
19:19:09 [timeless]
... that could mean that a user could automatically see subtitles by default
19:19:14 [timeless]
... i see general nodding
19:19:34 [timeless]
Jim: UA Accessibility requirements already have that
19:19:42 [timeless]
Matt: Legal requirements by next year will mandate that
19:19:43 [timeless]
Sylvia: languages
19:19:55 [timeless]
... browser vendors already have a setting for default language preferences
19:20:09 [timeless]
... we can reuse that to specify preferred language / subtitles
19:20:28 [timeless]
... is this an acceptable approach
19:20:35 [timeless]
Adrian: ...
19:20:39 [timeless]
... Microsoft ...
19:20:47 [timeless]
... having the browser setting as a sensible default
19:20:50 [timeless]
... is a fine idea
19:20:51 [foolip]
no, browser language settings are next to useless
19:21:00 [timeless]
... but we know that lots of people have it set incorrectly
19:21:06 [timeless]
... so we know that isn't sufficient
19:21:10 [timeless]
... I don't have a specific proposal
19:21:19 [timeless]
... web sites that deal with content available in multiple languages
19:21:31 [timeless]
... they typically start with the language provided as a default
19:21:40 [timeless]
... but they typically have a menu that lets the user override it
19:21:53 [timeless]
... and then they use a cookie to store the user's expressed choice
19:22:13 [timeless]
... we know that lots of people use a language install of a browser which doesn't match their preferred content language
19:22:28 [foolip]
If we want to use browser language, use just one resource with http content negotiation. otherwise, let the page choose the default
19:22:31 [timeless]
... they might have English as a browser, but not their preferred content language
19:22:34 [foolip]
i.e. I agree with Adrian
19:23:03 [foolip]
no, I'm in Sweden
19:23:04 [timeless]
... provided the user agent lets the user choose
19:23:32 [foolip]
maybe commenting via IRC is going to be messy
19:23:34 [timeless]
[ we're trying to fix foolip 's access ]
19:23:43 [timeless]
[ action to MikeSmith to solve ]
19:23:55 [timeless]
Cynthia: ...
19:23:55 [foolip]
It's already been fixed, no problem
19:24:13 [timeless]
... relying on the web content authors to solve this won't work
19:24:18 [timeless]
... we need the browsers to provide a solution
19:24:33 [timeless]
sylvia: the web page author will have the possibility to provide an alternative
19:24:45 [timeless]
Janina: we discovered there's an api for basic controls
19:24:49 [timeless]
... accessibility will look at this
19:25:00 [timeless]
... we have a concern about a standard way to do basic controls
19:25:01 [SCain]
+1 to that
19:25:11 [timeless]
... as opposed to a hand wave
19:25:32 [timeless]
... you might want controls on multiple monitors / splitting video output from control display
19:25:35 [timeless]
glenn: MTV
19:25:46 [timeless]
... we've encountered places where regional locations are important
19:25:51 [timeless]
... we went with ISO lang_region
19:25:55 [timeless]
... we chose es_MX
19:25:59 [timeless]
... we detect we're your coming from
19:26:04 [timeless]
... and we try to do the right thing
19:26:37 [timeless]
sylvia: language technologies being the main part
19:26:45 [timeless]
... but also regional variants need to be considered
19:26:50 [timeless]
frankolivier: we still need to add ...
19:26:52 [JF]
timeless can post that link of the demo?
19:26:59 [JF]
K
19:27:12 [timeless]
... we have some way to add itext elements for the user
19:27:26 [MikeSmith]
note that foolip is Philip Jägenstedt, who is working on the video implementation in Opera
19:27:29 [timeless]
... we have no way to show the user that a video track as caption information
19:27:37 [timeless]
RRSAgent: make minutes
19:27:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html timeless
19:28:01 [timeless]
frankolivier: in markup, the user might want to pick a video which has captions if none of the itext have captions
19:28:11 [timeless]
sylvia: I've had this discussion with Quim
19:28:23 [timeless]
... he proposed for elements
19:28:41 [silvia]
http://www.annodex.net/~silvia/itext/elephant_no_skin_v2.html
19:28:52 [timeless]
s/Quim/Ken Ajrren/
19:29:11 [timeless]
... Ken (at google)
19:29:22 [timeless]
... his proposal was to use the same (itext?) markup
19:29:28 [timeless]
... in the same way we use it for external files
19:29:32 [timeless]
... also use it for internal files
19:29:45 [timeless]
... remove the source attribute, and when the source attribute isn't present
19:29:47 [JF]
s/Ken Ajrren/Ken Harrenstien/
19:30:05 [timeless]
frankolivier: there can be multiple video sources
19:30:16 [timeless]
sylvia: i'd be interested in hearing about the declarative way for binary files
19:30:24 [timeless]
... you could also use javascript
19:30:41 [timeless]
... the problem with the declarative way, is that it can only be a hint, it could have stale or incomplete information
19:30:46 [timeless]
... the file could have been replaced
19:30:58 [timeless]
frankolivier: i don't think it's a good idea to have to run javascript to see what's inside the videos
19:31:13 [timeless]
... if you're e.g. a search engine, you don't want to run javascript to index the videos
19:31:21 [timeless]
Cynthia: similarly for ...
19:31:34 [timeless]
eric_carlson: you do have to deal with the way where files have captions in them
19:31:55 [timeless]
frankolivier: the desire here is to specify all the representations are available
19:32:01 [timeless]
... and the useragent picks the one it want
19:32:05 [timeless]
s/want/wants/
19:32:12 [timeless]
... but it shouldn't require script
19:32:24 [timeless]
eric_carlson: but it should be possible for content providers to provide their own controls
19:32:55 [Kai]
+1 to creating customizable controls ... and skinning if possible
19:32:59 [timeless]
... so to the extent that the user agent makes a decision, a javascript api needs to be provided to expose the same information that the user agent used and exposed in its default controls
19:33:08 [timeless]
... exposing type of text track
19:33:20 [timeless]
Celly Kain: RMIB ?
19:33:31 [timeless]
... I'm very controlled about different kinds of controlled
19:33:37 [timeless]
... there are all sorts of accessibility issues
19:33:42 [timeless]
eric_carlson: that is a concern
19:33:44 [timeless]
... but we have that now
19:33:51 [timeless]
... all of this is done with javascript
19:34:00 [timeless]
... people will continue to do this,
19:34:06 [Kai]
q+
19:34:14 [timeless]
Cynthia: i think he's saying we have both
19:34:24 [timeless]
sylvia: i want to show existing custom controls
19:34:35 [timeless]
... e.g. daily motion have done this, the first thing they did was turn off the controls
19:34:46 [timeless]
... which puts the need for accessibility to be put into their controls
19:34:53 [timeless]
... here's an example of a player with their controls
19:35:01 [silvia]
http://www.annodex.net/~silvia/itext/elephant_with_skin.html
19:35:06 [timeless]
[ sylvia demos link above ]
19:35:24 [timeless]
... here's i've added a menu, and way to ...
19:35:34 [timeless]
... people should be required to implement and make it accessibile
19:35:42 [adrianba]
s/RMIB/RNIB/g
19:35:44 [timeless]
... i don't think we can turn off a means to create custom controls
19:36:01 [Kai]
q+ to say that a video player is part of the design of the page and must be fully customizable, including the controls
19:36:02 [timeless]
Hixie: it's also probably a way for the UA to let the user pick the browser controls
19:36:23 [timeless]
Cynthia: i was also going to say
19:36:34 [timeless]
... one of the main use cases is providing a certain feel
19:36:47 [timeless]
... supporting CSS so you can use the standard controls and just change their feel
19:36:51 [JF]
+1 to Cynthia
19:36:56 [timeless]
Jim: currently, user agents supply everything to javascript first
19:37:07 [timeless]
... there's no way to provide
19:37:26 [timeless]
... there's no way for the UA to know what a custom control is
19:37:44 [timeless]
... so javascript gets precedences over key event capture
19:37:50 [timeless]
sylvia: these act in sync
19:38:07 [timeless]
... if i play here, then both the custom and the default controls
19:38:16 [timeless]
Matt: what if the custom controls are an overlay
19:38:24 [timeless]
sylvia: you mean stacked
19:39:50 [timeless]
[ scribe speaks ]
19:40:10 [timeless]
sylvia: the requirement here
19:40:15 [timeless]
... is that there's a requirement for the user
19:40:21 [timeless]
... to turn off the custom controls
19:40:33 [timeless]
Hixie: there might be a way
19:40:44 [timeless]
Kai: Deutsche telecom
19:40:57 [timeless]
... the player is an integral part of the design of a page
19:41:07 [timeless]
... there's no way that it can't be customized by the page
19:41:22 [timeless]
... we can not at this point or even eventually determine how things will be
19:41:31 [timeless]
Matt: ...
19:41:43 [timeless]
... using CSS the idea of author proposes, the user disposes
19:41:48 [timeless]
... e.g. easy youtube
19:41:57 [Kai]
ack kai
19:41:57 [Zakim]
Kai, you wanted to say that a video player is part of the design of the page and must be fully customizable, including the controls
19:41:58 [timeless]
... when you have the ability
19:42:13 [timeless]
... for overriding the author's preference as a user
19:42:17 [timeless]
Cynthia: ...
19:42:29 [timeless]
... if there were standard controls which were stylable
19:42:45 [timeless]
sylvia: right now the controls are not exposes in the DOM
19:42:56 [timeless]
Hixie: the design is that we don't know what the UA controls are going to be
19:43:02 [JF]
Easy YouTube: http://icant.co.uk/easy-youtube/
19:43:03 [timeless]
... they might not even be on the screen
19:43:06 [plh-salonA]
HTML5/SVG video player: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/video-player.xhtml
19:43:14 [timeless]
Cynthia: a semantic tag for play button
19:43:25 [timeless]
... whether it's in the
19:43:35 [timeless]
... document or not
19:43:44 [timeless]
... provide a way to switch displays
19:44:13 [timeless]
glenn: we need to provide a way to allow content providers to control e.g. the scrubber
19:44:20 [timeless]
... so that you can't e.g. skip the ads
19:44:42 [timeless]
... re closed captioning controls, i think the government will regulating it
19:44:56 [timeless]
Janina: all controls are out of general frustration
19:45:04 [timeless]
[ time check. 15 mins ]
19:45:08 [timeless]
Topic: Audio Descriptions
19:45:36 [timeless]
sylvia: there's also the issue that Glen brought up about bit rates
19:46:18 [timeless]
... so obviously there's a need to provided audio descriptions
19:46:19 [timeless]
... so we can help vision impaired
19:46:31 [timeless]
... we had on sunday a very interesting demo of using textual audio descriptions
19:46:35 [timeless]
... both using an SRT file
19:46:43 [timeless]
... but also from Hiro from IBM
19:46:56 [timeless]
... who showed a high quality speech synthesizer using textual audio descriptions
19:47:04 [timeless]
... my demo uses an SRT file
19:47:14 [timeless]
... where descriptions fall into the spaces where no person is speaking
19:47:23 [timeless]
... in front of background noise, background music
19:47:29 [timeless]
... that's where i placed the text
19:47:36 [timeless]
... that was hooked up to the screen reader using ARIA
19:47:43 [timeless]
... ARAI-live-regions
19:47:56 [timeless]
... in a div that i was hiding behind the video
19:48:04 [timeless]
... updated in sync with the text
19:48:11 [timeless]
... with start/stop times
19:48:19 [adrianba]
s/ARAI/ARIA/
19:48:21 [timeless]
... therefore it was read out at the right times
19:48:36 [timeless]
... fortunately most people using a screen reader want things faster, not slower
19:48:44 [timeless]
... i'm wondering if that's a viable solution using text
19:49:06 [timeless]
... to help solve the audio description challenges
19:49:14 [timeless]
John Folliot: using text
19:49:20 [timeless]
... to provide your descriptive audio
19:49:27 [timeless]
... is probably a really efficient way
19:49:33 [timeless]
... but there are lots of places where that will break
19:49:47 [timeless]
... so when you get to kiosks, where the hardware/software isn't available
19:49:51 [timeless]
... so allowing for that
19:49:57 [timeless]
... is probably an option
19:50:02 [timeless]
Celly Kain: ...
19:50:11 [timeless]
... i'd like to support what John was saying
19:50:22 [timeless]
... the reality is that BBC is required by law to provide 10%
19:50:36 [timeless]
... of their content with audio described
19:50:41 [timeless]
... we're currently lobbying for 20%
19:50:42 [adrianba]
s/Celly Kain/Sally Cain/g
19:50:49 [timeless]
... we've talked a lot about
19:50:56 [timeless]
Jim Allen: ...
19:50:58 [timeless]
... i like your idea
19:51:05 [timeless]
... I agree with john and sally
19:51:15 [timeless]
... but putting it in text, it makes it small and searchable
19:51:24 [cyns]
+1 John and Sally. Need to support bot
19:51:26 [timeless]
... for deaf-blind people then text
19:51:30 [timeless]
s/bot/both/
19:51:40 [timeless]
... then it comes out in the braille display
19:51:52 [timeless]
dsinger: you can see an audio description of a video
19:51:53 [Laura]
+1 John and Sally.
19:51:54 [SCain]
+1 to Jim's comment
19:51:58 [timeless]
... on media queries
19:52:08 [timeless]
... you can see a text version of that is a rather interesting audio codec
19:52:13 [timeless]
... a rather interesting compressed format
19:52:18 [timeless]
.. using a plain text format
19:52:26 [timeless]
... which requires a special output converter
19:52:34 [timeless]
... using a textual format has huge advantages
19:52:39 [timeless]
glenn: in many ways
19:52:45 [timeless]
... the reality for television broadcasts
19:52:56 [timeless]
... is repurposing existing content
19:53:10 [timeless]
... taking a separate audio track, sadly mono,
19:53:13 [timeless]
... and mixing it in
19:53:23 [timeless]
Jim: the other thing, glenn, is that, broadcast media
19:53:34 [timeless]
... doesn't create the audio description from scratch
19:53:40 [timeless]
... we should rescue the script
19:53:44 [timeless]
Janina: very briefly
19:53:50 [timeless]
... we should absolute hang on to the text
19:53:55 [timeless]
... there are a lot of good reasons
19:54:03 [timeless]
... just to have a text to speech engine to read it out
19:54:16 [timeless]
... but i'd rather speak up for artistic merit
19:54:31 [timeless]
... i'd like to hear an artist over a speech engine
19:54:41 [timeless]
[ various praising Hiro's Text to Speak Engine ]
19:54:43 [timeless]
sylvia: ...
19:54:55 [timeless]
... text description, is it an extra track
19:55:00 [timeless]
glenn: in our environment
19:55:05 [timeless]
... there's a separate audio track
19:55:13 [timeless]
... which is mixed in with descriptive audio
19:55:21 [timeless]
... we would choose to deliver that as a separate audio track
19:55:27 [timeless]
... there's one stereo audio track
19:55:41 [timeless]
... flattened with the original track mixed in with the descriptions
19:55:45 [timeless]
... it's an alternate audio source
19:55:58 [timeless]
... there's one media with video+standard audio
19:56:18 [timeless]
... and there's an alternate audio only media which pairs with that video minus its audio
19:56:21 [timeless]
sylvia: there are three ways to deal with it
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19:56:30 [timeless]
... you could take the original video with the new merged audio track
19:56:42 [timeless]
... there's a way where a blind person would only want the merged audio track
19:56:47 [timeless]
Sally: i want to make a comment
19:56:51 [timeless]
... it depends on the country
19:57:00 [timeless]
... in the UK the audio description is a distinct track
19:57:03 [timeless]
... not premixed
19:57:12 [timeless]
... there might not be a one size fits all
19:57:19 [timeless]
Jim: the example from WGBH (boston)
19:57:21 [timeless]
... using SMIL
19:57:24 [JF]
Hiro's (BM) player: http://www.research.ibm.com/trl/projects/acc_tech/aibrowser_e.htm
19:57:28 [timeless]
... there's video, the audio is separate
19:57:40 [timeless]
... the audio description is synced
19:57:46 [timeless]
glenn: audio is merged in the player
19:58:01 [timeless]
sylvia: and how do we mark this up in html
19:58:12 [timeless]
... since this is all binary that needs to be synchronized
19:58:17 [timeless]
... do we have source tags which have source tags
19:58:24 [timeless]
... do we want to compose things with the video element
19:58:28 [timeless]
... towards the SMIL element
19:58:42 [timeless]
glenn: there could be multiple media elements within the video element
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Cynthia: does smile support video overlays for like sign language over
19:59:06 [timeless]
sylvia: I think SMIL supports just about anything
19:59:25 [timeless]
Joe Williams: Web3D
19:59:31 [timeless]
... canvas could overlay video
19:59:41 [timeless]
Cynthia: the sign language is also a video
19:59:47 [timeless]
sylvia: do we need to reinvent this
19:59:54 [timeless]
... or is there enough support for this
20:00:04 [timeless]
... or does video/html/canvas already support this
20:00:14 [timeless]
Matt: ... green screen support
20:00:19 [timeless]
... you'll have a signer against a background
20:00:25 [timeless]
... you'll want to bunch out the background
20:00:32 [timeless]
sylvia: that's been shown with canvas
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eric_carlson: doing that with multiple video files
20:00:50 [timeless]
... supports the media engine supports video with alpha
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... which isn't common
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Cynthia: sometimes you want an opaque background behind the signer.
20:01:09 [timeless]
sylvia: i'm aware that our time is up
20:01:18 [timeless]
... this was more of a brainstorm, than providing all the answers
20:01:28 [timeless]
... but we've contributed to the requirements analysis that's upcoming
20:01:34 [timeless]
... i'd like to close the session
20:01:41 [timeless]
... i'd like to thank everyone who was here
20:01:44 [timeless]
... and thanks to the scribe
20:01:47 [timeless]
[ applause ]
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23:02:10 [jallan]
have minutes been generated? if so what is url
23:05:35 [jallan]
never mind, found them
23:16:11 [cardona507]
jallan - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html
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