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18:12:08 <timeless> scribenick: timeless 
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18:12:43 <MikeSmith> Topic: Video
18:12:46 <timeless> Sylvia: ...
18:12:52 <timeless> Topic: Video Breakout Session
18:13:05 <timeless> Sylvia: What we're going to do is go through this document from top to bottom
18:13:07 <MikeSmith> meeting: HTML WG face to face, Santa Clara - video session
18:13:15 <plh> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty/TPACSession#head-791e3205ef073305f38ecb15244f822545c6c051
18:13:16 <timeless> ... <http://bit.ly/3sHMcT>
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18:13:24 <timeless> ... let's start with baseline codecs
18:13:30 <timeless> Carlos Cardona:
18:13:41 <timeless> Carlos Cardona: ... I was wondering what the intention was
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18:13:52 <timeless> Sylvia: I think the right person is hiding
18:13:59 <timeless> Dave Singer: from apple
18:14:16 <timeless> ... I think the general consensus is we want a guaranteed fallback
18:14:25 <timeless> ... unfortunately it's been a one on one discussion
18:14:30 <glenn> glenn has joined #video
18:14:46 <timeless> ... we want something that's easy to deploy
18:14:50 <timeless> ... for mobile terminals
18:14:58 <timeless> ... we want to address royalty free IPR
18:15:11 <timeless> ... generally, we're looking for something a little boring 
18:15:16 <timeless> ... i'm continuing to work with other companies
18:15:29 <timeless> ... and trying to convince them that there's value working with us
18:15:35 <timeless> ... i've seen movement
18:15:37 <timeless> ... but it's slow
18:15:56 <timeless> ... sam asked, what process do we propose to how we're going to resolve this issue
18:16:02 <timeless> ... it's really frustrating
18:16:17 <timeless> ... i'm as frustrated as everyone else in this room
18:16:19 <timeless> ... given the source fallback capability
18:16:24 <timeless> ... i think we're looking for the final fallback
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18:16:33 <timeless> ... you can put your preferred format
18:16:40 <timeless> ... but then you can put the fallback codec
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18:16:59 <timeless> plh: is it worth spending our time on a codec
18:17:20 <timeless> ... that we know is only going to satisfy some portion of the audience
18:17:29 <timeless> dsinger: I think it's very important
18:17:46 <timeless> ... and there's a large portion of the world who is just wants something that works
18:17:49 <timeless> Adrian Baker: microsoft
18:17:55 <timeless> ... I agree with everything David said
18:18:04 <MikeSmith> s/Baker/Bateman/
18:18:08 <timeless> ... the only thing i question is whether it's feasible to describe a process
18:18:15 <timeless> Adrian Bateman: ...
18:18:21 <MikeSmith> q?
18:18:31 <timeless> ... that goes about doing this
18:18:38 <timeless> ... given that it really involves one to one discussion
18:18:51 <timeless> ... the only way to have a process is when you have multiple options
18:18:56 <timeless> Sylvia: ...
18:19:04 <timeless> ... to talk about a process
18:19:12 <timeless> ... would be putting back a call for proposals
18:19:19 <timeless> ... for things which satisfy all requirements
18:19:25 <timeless> ... i'm not sure it's really workable
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18:19:43 <timeless> ... i'm sure that behind closed doors, there's another ... that's being proposed
18:19:46 <timeless> plh: about process
18:19:56 <timeless> ... i'm not going to create a group
18:20:04 <timeless> ... unless i know people will join the group
18:20:15 <timeless> ... and if the group of people who would join the group
18:20:22 <timeless> ... is different from the group of people in html5
18:20:33 <timeless> ... then i'm not sure if there's a point
18:20:41 <timeless> ... the amount of resources to create an open call
18:20:50 <timeless> ... from the w3c is very significant
18:20:59 <timeless> ... including closing it
18:21:04 <timeless> syliva: hearing that
18:21:11 <timeless> ... it would have to come out of the html5 group?
18:21:27 <timeless> David: I think you don't want to issue a question for which you don't want to hear the answer
18:21:35 <timeless> Carlos: ...
18:21:41 <timeless> ... if we do find a codec, moving forward
18:21:53 <timeless> ... do we still intend to keep the <source> element that descends from <video> ?
18:21:57 <timeless> sylvia: Yes
18:22:08 <timeless> ... I think baseline codecs are likely to be lower level 
18:22:14 <timeless> Hixie: forget codec
18:22:17 <dsinger> people interested in this topic and who feel that they can help are welcome to contact me...
18:22:26 <timeless> ... we still need things for multiple resolutions, black and white, flicker/no flicker
18:22:27 <dsinger> or indeed work on it separately
18:22:28 <timeless> sylvia: ...
18:22:34 <timeless> ... next point
18:22:40 <timeless> ... Q-ranges
18:22:45 <timeless> ... about the requirements around these
18:22:53 <timeless> ... and how we satisfy the requirements around them
18:23:02 <timeless> ... i've heard the requirements are around multiple cases
18:23:11 <timeless> [ UPS arrives ]
18:23:38 <timeless> David: who can give a summary about q ranges?
18:23:47 <timeless> Hixie: I don't know that there's much to summarize
18:23:52 <timeless> ... we had things in the spec
18:23:55 <timeless> ... there were concerned raised
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18:24:00 <timeless> ... i think it was safer to remove it
18:24:06 <frankolivier> cue ranges, not q ranges
18:24:13 <timeless> ... i think there were other parts of the api
18:24:19 <timeless> s/q-ranges/cue ranges/g
18:24:24 <timeless> s/q ranges/cue ranges/g
18:24:36 <timeless> Sylvia: ...
18:24:50 <timeless> ... i think there were questions about if it was sufficient
18:25:00 <timeless> Hixie: for pausing it was (?) sufficient
18:25:09 <timeless> ... apart from that was the main reason was for time updates
18:25:16 <timeless> ... say you have a slide show
18:25:27 <timeless> ... and you're trying to keep the relevant slide showing
18:25:35 <timeless> ... and when you enter/exit a range you show/hide the slide
18:25:49 <timeless> ... it works for both backwards and forwards progression
18:25:58 <timeless> ... with cue ranges you get this for free
18:26:17 <timeless> ... if you use time elements, you have to do this yourself
18:26:19 <timeless> David: ...
18:26:30 <timeless> dsinger: one of the nice thing about cue ranges is that it's sensitive to processing power
18:26:38 <timeless> ... i'm not a fan of time updates
18:27:00 <timeless> ... i'm much more a fan of cue ranges as they're much more friendly to processing power
18:27:07 <timeless> sylvia: what was the problem?
18:27:12 <timeless> dsinger: it wasn't implemented
18:27:18 <timeless> Frank: Microsoft
18:27:29 <timeless> Eric Carlson: ...
18:27:35 <timeless> ... david made a proposal to the mailinglist
18:27:39 <timeless> ... a way to do cue ranges 
18:27:51 <timeless> ... declaratively (it until then was javascript only)
18:27:54 <timeless> ... to the dom
18:27:58 <timeless> s/dom/DOM/
18:28:09 <timeless> ... the feedback that we got from the implementors at Opera
18:28:20 <timeless> ... was that they were also unhappy about a JavaScript only API as well
18:28:35 <timeless> Sylvia: was the proposal with attributes?
18:28:44 <timeless> eric_carlson: no, it was with events, as opposed to callbacks
18:29:01 <timeless> Hixie: when we use captions as opposed to in file captions
18:29:18 <timeless> ... there are two ways to do captions, in the video file, or completely separate with javascript
18:29:30 <timeless> ... the solution to this going forward, is supporting out of file captions
18:29:35 <timeless> ... and to have an API that binds to that
18:29:46 <timeless> sylvia: maybe we can leave cue ranges here
18:29:55 <timeless> ... or does anyone else have anything else on them?
18:30:07 <timeless> [ topic: Accessibility Video/Audio, media ]
18:30:16 <timeless> sylvia: I've got the list of related bugs here
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18:30:23 <timeless> [ screen, url, scribe doesn't have ]
18:30:33 <timeless> sylvia: we had a big discussion sunday
18:30:35 <MikeSmith> Topic: Accessibility Video/Audio, media
18:30:42 <timeless> ... i'll call on john folley to give this
18:30:54 <timeless> John: on sunday everyone had an opportunity to say what they were looking for
18:30:55 <MikeSmith> s/folley/Foliot
18:31:03 <timeless> ... we didn't get an opportunity to work things out
18:31:08 <timeless> ... there's an issue about time line
18:31:12 <timeless> ... in terms of controlling time line
18:31:22 <timeless> ... the time stamping format needs to be further discussed
18:31:33 <timeless> ... at this point, we need to move forward with discussion
18:31:41 <timeless> sylvia: i think what we need to do here
18:31:49 <timeless> ... is move to a list of requirements
18:32:03 <timeless> ... people are encouraged to start experimenting and propose solutions
18:32:15 <timeless> dsinger: what we're trying to do here is get things on the wiki
18:32:20 <Laura> Multimedia Accessibility <Audio> <Video> 
18:32:21 <Laura> Multimedia Accessibility <Audio> <Video> 
18:32:22 <timeless> ... there were two actions I took away
18:32:30 <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty/TPACSession#head-791e3205ef073305f38ecb15244f822545c6c051
18:32:30 <timeless> ... one was using media queries to select a source
18:32:39 <timeless> ... there seemed to be general consensus on this
18:32:45 <timeless> ... the css wg seemed to agree
18:32:55 <timeless> ... they suggested working with the XX? WG
18:33:02 <timeless> ... that's an action item
18:33:09 <timeless> ... to look at the accessibility
18:33:15 <timeless> ... to have the accessibility in the media files
18:33:17 <jallan> s/XX?/PFWG
18:33:21 <timeless> ... the other item
18:33:26 <timeless> ... was looking at non type fallback
18:33:36 <timeless> ... e.g. warning about "could induce seizures"
18:33:48 <timeless> ... i'm going to work with Ian on working on what to put into the spec
18:34:04 <timeless> ... i suspect this might relate to what do you do when you print a page on a media surface that doesn't support things
18:34:06 <timeless> ... the third item
18:34:18 <timeless> ... was there was general consensus that we should use ARIA to link to a transcript
18:34:28 <timeless> ... James Craig said he would take an action to come up with text on that
18:34:37 <timeless> ... what I want to do is come up with a best practices
18:34:44 <timeless> ... there's stuff you should be aware of in CSS and ARIA
18:34:54 <timeless> ... so that someone interested can go to a single place
18:35:05 <timeless> ... because right now it's spread across multiple specifications
18:35:15 <timeless> sylvia: if i could go on from there to the more general accessibility task for
18:35:19 <timeless> s/for/force/
18:35:38 <timeless> ... within the accessibility task force, we would create a general document about video accessibility
18:35:45 <timeless> John: ...
18:35:54 <timeless> the task force hasn't had enough time to figure out logistics
18:36:02 <timeless> s/the/... the/
18:36:17 <timeless> ... I haven't had a discussion within the task force
18:36:21 <timeless> ... we will probably have a space within the wiki
18:36:29 <timeless> sylvia: genina(?)
18:36:56 <timeless> s/genina/jenina/
18:36:58 <timeless> Jenina: there's an html-wg, we're operating under this for IPR
18:37:08 <timeless> ... we should have a process and resources set up fairly quickly
18:37:16 <timeless> Glen Goldstein: from MTV networks
18:37:26 <timeless> ... before we move on to video ...
18:37:29 <jallan> s/Jenina/Janina
18:37:36 <timeless> s/jenina/Janina/g
18:37:48 <timeless> ... we want to have a way to suggest multiple audio tracks
18:37:55 <timeless> ... for things like secondary audio programming
18:38:04 <timeless> Janina: ipv6
18:38:17 <timeless> ... there's both a problem and an opportunity
18:38:29 <timeless> ... about how you provide access to types of content
18:38:38 <timeless> ... there's a lot of opportunity
18:38:49 <timeless> s/ipv6/similar to an earlier discussion about ipv6/
18:38:55 <timeless> ... i'm also excited about this
18:39:05 <timeless> ... as people mentioned, you don't need to be in a wheel chair to appreciate a curb cut
18:39:15 <timeless> Glen: is there enough support in the spec
18:39:22 <timeless> ... to support sources from multiple files
18:39:36 <timeless> eric_carlson: no, there is not
18:39:40 <timeless> ... it's technically very hard
18:39:41 <timeless> q?
18:39:48 <timeless> Doug: that problem is addressed by SMIL
18:40:03 <timeless> sylvia: though people on sunday said it isn't really solved by SMIL
18:40:08 <timeless> ... it's just declared by SMIL
18:40:20 <timeless> ... synchronizing files from multiple servers
18:40:23 <timeless> ... is hard
18:40:32 <timeless> Glen: at least there's a start
18:40:43 <timeless> Janina: you can't guarantee success, but you can provide an opportunity
18:40:50 <timeless> Doug: Time containers let you try to solve that
18:40:57 <timeless> ... solving it at a network level is another issue
18:41:16 <timeless> Sylvia: if we rely on a separate file, then SMIL ....
18:41:39 <timeless> ... if the description of how to compose the media experience
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18:41:42 <timeless> ... is in a separate file
18:41:47 <timeless> ... then it's a further indirection
18:41:59 <timeless> doug: you could simply bring the syntax into HTML, as we did for SVG
18:42:19 <timeless> Glen: there's a similar discussion, as with multi rate streaming
18:42:27 <timeless> ... the same theme will keep coming up
18:42:42 <timeless> Sylvia: coming from the point of view
18:42:47 <timeless> ... there is a solution for doing multi track
18:42:52 <timeless> ... with multiple controls
18:42:56 <timeless> ... with multiple time lines
18:43:03 <timeless> ... which has been standardized by the w3c
18:43:11 <timeless> ... not looking at the actual requirements
18:43:15 <timeless> ... and just trying to push it in
18:43:27 <timeless> ... there have been multiple people saying that SMIL is too compicated
18:43:33 <timeless> ... and that we shouldn't push it into HTML
18:43:43 <timeless> eric_carlson: not if you want multiple implementations in reasonable time
18:43:55 <timeless> Sylvia: the question is whether it could be a profile of SMIL
18:44:02 <timeless> ... there are all kinds of issues relating to that
18:44:05 <timeless> ... who specifies it
18:44:10 <timeless> ... or do we look at it from the requirements
18:44:17 <timeless> Doug: sync based v. event based timing
18:44:32 <timeless> ... are already being put into Mozilla, Safari and Opera
18:44:41 <timeless> ... are being done for SVG
18:44:55 <timeless> eric_carlson: having an implementation of those that works for non time based media
18:45:03 <timeless> ... is much less challenging than making it work for time based media
18:45:08 <timeless> ... maintaining sync
18:45:18 <timeless> Doug: there is an animation timeline
18:45:24 <timeless> ... is that different from the media timeline?
18:45:25 <timeless> eric_carlson: yes
18:45:33 <timeless> sylvia: moving on in the agenda
18:45:43 <timeless> ... looking at it from what other work
18:45:55 <timeless> ... what are other requirements for solving accessibility
18:46:01 <timeless> ... was caption and subtitle support
18:46:07 <timeless> ... and how to do that with SMIL
18:46:18 <timeless> ... i encourage people who want to solve it with SMIL to propose a solution
18:46:24 <timeless> ... maybe it's possible to do it straight out of HTML
18:46:29 <timeless> ... I encourage people to make proposals
18:46:40 <timeless> ... People are probably aware of the itech(?) specification
18:46:59 <timeless> ... I think we all agree at the need for a declarative syntax for linking external files into html
18:47:07 <timeless> Synthia Shelley: Microsoft
18:47:16 <timeless> ... I was wondering if that includes audio description and sign language
18:47:24 <timeless> Sylvia: I think that's later in our agenda
18:47:34 <timeless> ... then there is the option with the declarative syntax
18:47:45 <timeless> ... in the itech element, there's a reference to an external file
18:47:51 <timeless> ... that doesn't get loaded into the DOM
18:47:56 <timeless> ... but provides a javascript API
18:47:57 <frankolivier> itext, not itech
18:48:02 <timeless> s/itech/itext/g
18:48:09 <kford> We should think about wheether accessibility settings should be called accessibility.  Many segments of the population wh
18:48:13 <timeless> ... but we could provide a way to load it into the DOM
18:48:17 <frankolivier> itext spec: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/HTML5_captions
18:48:24 <timeless> s/wheether/whether/
18:48:25 <kford> who could benefit don't think in terms of accessibility.
18:48:39 <timeless> [thanks to frank for dropping the link]
18:48:59 <timeless> sylvia: an action item to me is to put stuff relating to itext into the wiki
18:49:11 <timeless> ... i have multiple versions, and i'll describe it into the wiki 
18:49:16 <timeless> frankolivier: re itext
18:49:31 <timeless> ... you're describing all of the external bits of a file into an html document
18:49:42 <timeless> ... this is similar to what we do for an actual video itself
18:49:54 <timeless> ... so if you're a user agent, you don't have to open the file to get the info
18:50:06 <Laura> User Roles and Cases
18:50:07 <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty#head-c5d0ca60246df93bceaca431df464168bfa0e0af
18:50:07 <timeless> ... this is similar to how video is handled
18:50:21 <timeless> [ sylvia shows an example of an itext document ]
18:50:31 <timeless> [ sylvia describes it ]
18:50:41 <timeless> sylvia: ... charsets ...
18:51:09 <timeless> sylvia: what formats should we support for captions and subtitles
18:51:14 <timeless> ... what formats are important
18:51:20 <timeless> ... beyond the tree i've already listed
18:51:26 <timeless> ... requirements, and reasons for choosing each one
18:51:39 <timeless> ... we'll get into a similar discussion as with baseline formats for codecs
18:51:44 <timeless> Glen: timed text in general
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18:51:49 <timeless> ... DFXP is one possible profile
18:52:02 <timeless> ... SMPTE ...
18:52:07 <timeless> ... motion picture television ...
18:52:20 <timeless> ... SMPTE is one possible, it's compatible
18:52:29 <timeless> ... the broadcast industry is looking to embrace this
18:52:38 <cyns> cyns has joined #video
18:52:49 <timeless> ... Shawn Hayes from microsoft is leading the effort
18:53:00 <timeless> ... he says it has minor differences from DFXP
18:53:16 <timeless> ... there's internal work at this point
18:53:33 <timeless> ... and i think that will put the major domestic broadcasters into one format
18:53:41 <timeless> plh: there's a minor time issue
18:53:56 <timeless> sylvia: i don't think we'll have completely solved our caption issues by the end of the year
18:54:04 <timeless> frankolivier: the other thing about DFXP is
18:54:11 <timeless> ... they support picture overlays
18:54:22 <timeless> ... existing binary, like flash, support DFXP already today
18:54:32 <timeless> sylvia: i look at these issues from two perspectives
18:54:37 <timeless> ... from the professional community
18:54:43 <timeless> ... and also from the web community
18:54:52 <timeless> ... people out there, exchanging data
18:55:06 <timeless> ... it might be that within html we might propose implementing two
18:55:09 <timeless> ... SRT ...
18:55:18 <timeless> ... the free tools covert SRT
18:55:27 <timeless> glenn: there's no reason not to support it
18:55:35 <timeless> sylvia: exactly, it's trivial to implement
18:55:41 <timeless> ... SRT as a baseline format
18:55:46 <timeless> ... I have nothing against DFXP
18:55:54 <timeless> ... if there are enough people to write tools
18:56:05 <timeless> ... it might be the right thing for a professional level
18:56:18 <timeless> ... for things like Color and Italics
18:56:20 <timeless> ... these are things that SRT does not support
18:56:24 <timeless> ... there's also been a suggestion of SMIL TEXT
18:56:33 <timeless> ... I don't know how SMIL TEXT differs from the other
18:56:41 <timeless> glenn: I would say W3 timed text support
18:56:59 <timeless> sylvia: when I say DFXP, I mean W3 timed text
18:57:02 <timeless> glenn: ... and however many profiles come out of it
18:57:14 <timeless> ... it's a subset of timed text
18:57:28 <timeless> ... it will recreate enough to recreate timed captioning
18:58:10 <timeless> sylvia: open captions should be a thing of the past
18:58:16 <timeless> ... and we don't want to talk about it anymore
18:58:29 <timeless> ... i'm surprised we don't have a more lively discussion about baseline text
18:58:46 <timeless> .... even DFXP is comparatively is much simpler compared to video
18:58:48 <timeless> Matt May: ...
18:58:56 <timeless> ... I'll say that SRT is basically a subset of Timed Text
18:59:04 <timeless> ... it satisfies the basic requirements
18:59:19 <timeless> ... it has what to do when a caption enters and exits
18:59:30 <timeless> ... I wouldn't recommend that SRT be the lingua franca 
18:59:38 <timeless> ... I wouldn't object to it existing
18:59:48 <timeless> ... in the flash implementation there are a number of SRT solutions
19:00:03 <timeless> eric_carlson: I'm not sure it makes sense to mandate SRT
19:00:11 <timeless> ... It's common enough, but underspecified
19:00:26 <timeless> ... someone would have to write a spec for SRT
19:00:33 <timeless> sylvia: there's actually a proper web site for it
19:00:38 <timeless> .... there isn't a spec
19:00:44 <timeless> ... what we really need is a registered mime type
19:00:49 <timeless> ... i don't think srt would be a major issue
19:01:08 <timeless> dsinger: I think it would be a great thing that XIPH take over
19:01:14 <timeless> sylvia: so, Apple ...
19:01:21 <timeless> frankolivier: and Microsoft 
19:01:25 <timeless> sylvia: are here
19:01:48 <timeless> frankolivier: I would say that SRT and DFXP are .., things that could be supported
19:01:55 <timeless> Hixie: Google ...
19:02:05 <timeless> ... as we support OGG and MPEG
19:02:11 <timeless> ... will go for a superset
19:02:16 <timeless> glenn: there's also text as image
19:02:26 <timeless> ... where all you've got is a rasterized format
19:02:38 <timeless> sylvia: that's the bitmap overlay that frank mentioned
19:02:47 <timeless> plh: i don't think the accessibility will be appeased
19:02:59 <timeless> dsinger: if your choice is nothing at all or open captions
19:03:16 <timeless> Matt May (adobe):
19:03:20 <timeless> Matt May (adobe): ...
19:03:27 <timeless> ... i'll give an example
19:03:32 <timeless> ... that's what's in most DVDs
19:03:44 <timeless> ... it doesn't work for translations
19:03:53 <timeless> glenn: the good thing, is that this won't be burned in
19:04:08 <timeless> Janina: the accessibility will be that it's not specified in such a way that you can easily cheat
19:04:27 <timeless> Matt: the motion picture industry will like to do that
19:04:41 <timeless> Janina: no disagreement about supporting as many languages as we can
19:04:52 <plh> q?
19:04:53 <MikeSmith> q?
19:05:05 <timeless> sylvia: there was general agreement that bitmap captions that can be turned off
19:05:15 <timeless> ... that can be turned on and off, are better than no text
19:05:20 <timeless> ... there was violent agreement
19:05:23 <timeless> Jim Allen: ...
19:05:24 <MichaelC> s/Synthia/Cynthia/
19:05:38 <timeless> ... general question, is the bitmap a single standard format?
19:05:46 <timeless> s/Synthia/Cynthia/g
19:05:53 <timeless> ... is there only one format?
19:05:57 <Hixie> correction to my statement above: i was just saying google would _probably_ support the union of the formats supported by the other vendors
19:05:58 <timeless> ... so we have one tool
19:06:17 <timeless> glenn: I believe it's BMP
19:06:33 <timeless> sylvia: something that would be supported by the browser and easily overlayed
19:06:40 <timeless> ... while we're talking about the browser
19:06:47 <timeless> ... i think we should also talk about security issues
19:07:08 <timeless> ... there are issues about html accepting markup external from the web page
19:07:21 <timeless> eric_carlson: i'm not sure that's so much of an issue
19:07:28 <timeless> ... the security issue we'll have to deal with at some point
19:07:40 <timeless> ... is the case when we have a media file with captions from inside the file
19:07:44 <foolip> foolip has joined #video
19:07:51 <timeless> ... which is loaded from a different domain than the script
19:08:02 <timeless> ... and we won't be able to provide access to the information
19:08:13 <timeless> ... something could then override the information
19:08:19 <timeless> Hixie: the issue I'm worried about
19:08:38 <timeless> ... is being able to link to subtitles from another domai
19:08:41 <foolip> is there a realtime log where I can catch up what I've missed?
19:08:41 <timeless> s/domai/domain/
19:08:47 <timeless> RRSAgent: make minutes
19:08:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html timeless
19:09:09 <timeless> .... but that's solvable by restricting domain and then using CORS to reenable it
19:09:14 <timeless> eric_carlson: that's solvable
19:09:22 <timeless> ... but we'll have to apply cross domain rules
19:09:35 <timeless> ... there's possible that meta data in the page or loaded from a different domain
19:09:52 <timeless> ... is accessible from the script, but not the data that was in the video
19:10:02 <timeless> ... script won't have access to metadata within the media file
19:10:14 <timeless> ... the browser will want to ....render meta data
19:10:26 <timeless> ... but it will have to have rules, which wins, meta data in the file
19:10:30 <timeless> ... or meta data outside the file
19:10:38 <timeless> ... meta data tagged with the same language
19:10:53 <timeless> Hixie: a video file with English captions, and an external file with English captions
19:11:19 <timeless> eric_carlson: and when there's script, and only one of them is script accessible to the script
19:11:35 <timeless> sylvia: you can display the video, but not the meta data
19:11:41 <timeless> eric_carlson: or useragent can render the metadata
19:11:47 <timeless> ... but it can't provide it to script
19:11:57 <timeless> sylvia: we had this discussion earlier
19:12:02 <timeless> ... the question about which wins
19:12:05 <timeless> ... is a rights issue
19:12:15 <timeless> ... when someone publishes a video with a subtitle track
19:12:20 <timeless> ... they expect it to be shown
19:12:30 <timeless> ... when someone else associated track
19:12:37 <timeless> ... from a legal issue
19:12:44 <timeless> ... but a user might want to use the other one
19:12:55 <timeless> Janina: but a user might prefer that other one
19:13:08 <timeless> Hixie: and we can't actually stop it, because javascript could overwrite it
19:13:19 <timeless> doug: ... alternate sources of media
19:13:30 <timeless> ... i know we are loath to specify user interface elements
19:13:43 <timeless> sylvia: you're saying that the user could choose
19:13:54 <timeless> doug: we pick one
19:14:04 <timeless> ... but the UA provides a way to indicate alternates
19:14:22 <timeless> eric_carlson: that will work as long as author specifies the built in controls are available
19:14:25 <MikeSmith> q?
19:14:38 <timeless> Jim Allen: cochair User Agent WG
19:14:55 <timeless> ... we have specific success criteria dealing with the user being informed about multiple forms of a file
19:14:59 <timeless> ... as opposed to a default
19:15:06 <timeless> ... now whether that ever is implemented in a player
19:15:12 <timeless> ... standalone players like quicktime do this
19:15:25 <foolip> 403 Sorry, Insufficient Access Privileges on http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html (yes, I'm logged in)
19:15:27 <timeless> ... within a browser, the user agent should expose this, and the user should be able to pick an override
19:15:37 <timeless> [sylvia shows a demo ]
19:16:07 <timeless> Matt: ...
19:16:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:16:19 <timeless> ... as far as copyright goes
19:16:20 <timeless> ... that's not a concern for the working group
19:16:25 <timeless> ... until there's a concrete example
19:16:46 <timeless> ... my greatest concern is that a content provider that makes an internal thing where the caption attribute is null
19:16:51 <timeless> ... and that locks out external captions
19:16:58 <timeless> Doug: [nothing to say]
19:17:10 <timeless> dsinger: what do we need to specify so it's possible for a user to link their own choices
19:17:13 <timeless> ... to a video
19:17:17 <timeless> ... do we need to specify it
19:17:25 <timeless> ... the other question, is what do we do about language accessibility
19:17:33 <timeless> ... mostly punted by html
19:17:34 <MikeSmith> foolip, please try again
19:17:43 <foolip> MikeSmith: thanks, work fine now
19:17:49 <timeless> RRSAgent: make minutes
19:17:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html timeless
19:18:17 <timeless> Topic: Display Activation Issues with Caption Subtitles
19:18:34 <timeless> sylvia: we have a need to manage display activation, somehow
19:18:45 <timeless> ... there is a need for people to be able to specify whether they want captions automatically
19:18:56 <timeless> ... that could be done by adding user preferences in the browser
19:19:09 <timeless> ... that could mean that a user could automatically see subtitles by default
19:19:14 <timeless> ... i see general nodding
19:19:34 <timeless> Jim: UA Accessibility requirements already have that
19:19:42 <timeless> Matt: Legal requirements by next year will mandate that
19:19:43 <timeless> Sylvia: languages
19:19:55 <timeless> ... browser vendors already have a setting for default language preferences
19:20:09 <timeless> ... we can reuse that to specify preferred language / subtitles
19:20:28 <timeless> ... is this an acceptable approach 
19:20:35 <timeless> Adrian: ...
19:20:39 <timeless> ... Microsoft ...
19:20:47 <timeless> ... having the browser setting as a sensible default
19:20:50 <timeless> ... is a fine idea
19:20:51 <foolip> no, browser language settings are next to useless
19:21:00 <timeless> ... but we know that lots of people have it set incorrectly
19:21:06 <timeless> ... so we know that isn't sufficient
19:21:10 <timeless> ... I don't have a specific proposal
19:21:19 <timeless> ... web sites that deal with content available in multiple languages
19:21:31 <timeless> ... they typically start with the language provided as a default
19:21:40 <timeless> ... but they typically have a menu that lets the user override it
19:21:53 <timeless> ... and then they use a cookie to store the user's expressed choice
19:22:13 <timeless> ... we know that lots of people use a language install of a browser which doesn't match their preferred content language
19:22:28 <foolip> If we want to use browser language, use just one resource with http content negotiation. otherwise, let the page choose the default
19:22:31 <timeless> ... they might have English as a browser, but not their preferred content language
19:22:34 <foolip> i.e. I agree with Adrian
19:23:03 <foolip> no, I'm in Sweden
19:23:04 <timeless> ... provided the user agent lets the user choose
19:23:32 <foolip> maybe commenting via IRC is going to be messy
19:23:34 <timeless> [ we're trying to fix foolip 's access ]
19:23:43 <timeless> [ action to MikeSmith to solve ]
19:23:55 <timeless> Cynthia: ...
19:23:55 <foolip> It's already been fixed, no problem
19:24:13 <timeless> ... relying on the web content authors to solve this won't work
19:24:18 <timeless> ... we need the browsers to provide a solution
19:24:33 <timeless> sylvia: the web page author will have the possibility to provide an alternative
19:24:45 <timeless> Janina: we discovered there's an api for basic controls
19:24:49 <timeless> ... accessibility will look at this
19:25:00 <timeless> ... we have a concern about a standard way to do basic controls
19:25:01 <SCain> +1 to that
19:25:11 <timeless> ... as opposed to a hand wave
19:25:32 <timeless> ... you might want controls on multiple monitors / splitting video output from control display
19:25:35 <timeless> glenn: MTV
19:25:46 <timeless> ... we've encountered places where regional locations are important
19:25:51 <timeless> ... we went with ISO lang_region
19:25:55 <timeless> ... we chose es_MX
19:25:59 <timeless> ... we detect we're your coming from
19:26:04 <timeless> ... and we try to do the right thing
19:26:37 <timeless> sylvia: language technologies being the main part
19:26:45 <timeless> ... but also regional variants need to be considered
19:26:50 <timeless> frankolivier: we still need to add ...
19:26:52 <JF> timeless can post that link of the demo?
19:26:59 <JF> K
19:27:12 <timeless> ... we have some way to add itext elements for the user
19:27:26 <MikeSmith> note that foolip is Philip Jägenstedt, who is working on the video implementation in Opera
19:27:29 <timeless> ... we have no way to show the user that a video track as caption information
19:27:37 <timeless> RRSAgent: make minutes
19:27:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html timeless
19:28:01 <timeless> frankolivier: in markup, the user might want to pick a video which has captions if none of the itext have captions
19:28:11 <timeless> sylvia: I've had this discussion with Quim
19:28:23 <timeless> ... he proposed for elements 
19:28:41 <silvia> http://www.annodex.net/~silvia/itext/elephant_no_skin_v2.html
19:28:52 <timeless> s/Quim/Ken Ajrren/
19:29:11 <timeless> ... Ken (at google)
19:29:22 <timeless> ... his proposal was to use the same (itext?) markup
19:29:28 <timeless> ... in the same way we use it for external files
19:29:32 <timeless> ... also use it for internal files
19:29:45 <timeless> ... remove the source attribute, and when the source attribute isn't present
19:29:47 <JF> s/Ken Ajrren/Ken Harrenstien/
19:30:05 <timeless> frankolivier: there can be multiple video sources
19:30:16 <timeless> sylvia: i'd be interested in hearing about the declarative way for binary files
19:30:24 <timeless> ... you could also use javascript
19:30:41 <timeless> ... the problem with the declarative way, is that it can only be a hint, it could have stale or incomplete information
19:30:46 <timeless> ... the file could have been replaced
19:30:58 <timeless> frankolivier: i don't think it's a good idea to have to run javascript to see what's inside the videos
19:31:13 <timeless> ... if you're e.g. a search engine, you don't want to run javascript to index the videos
19:31:21 <timeless> Cynthia: similarly for ...
19:31:34 <timeless> eric_carlson: you do have to deal with the way where files have captions in them
19:31:55 <timeless> frankolivier: the desire here is to specify all the representations are available
19:32:01 <timeless> ... and the useragent picks the one it want
19:32:05 <timeless> s/want/wants/
19:32:12 <timeless> ... but it shouldn't require script
19:32:24 <timeless> eric_carlson: but it should be possible for content providers to provide their own controls
19:32:55 <Kai> +1 to creating customizable controls ... and skinning if possible
19:32:59 <timeless> ... so to the extent that the user agent makes a decision, a javascript api needs to be provided to expose the same information that the user agent used and exposed in its default controls
19:33:08 <timeless> ... exposing type of text track
19:33:20 <timeless> Celly Kain: RMIB ?
19:33:31 <timeless> ... I'm very controlled about different kinds of controlled
19:33:37 <timeless> ... there are all sorts of accessibility issues
19:33:42 <timeless> eric_carlson: that is a concern
19:33:44 <timeless> ... but we have that now
19:33:51 <timeless> ... all of this is done with javascript
19:34:00 <timeless> ... people will continue to do this, 
19:34:06 <Kai> q+
19:34:14 <timeless> Cynthia: i think he's saying we have both
19:34:24 <timeless> sylvia: i want to show existing custom controls
19:34:35 <timeless> ... e.g. daily motion have done this, the first thing they did was turn off the controls
19:34:46 <timeless> ... which puts the need for accessibility to be put into their controls
19:34:53 <timeless> ... here's an example of a player with their controls
19:35:01 <silvia> http://www.annodex.net/~silvia/itext/elephant_with_skin.html
19:35:06 <timeless> [ sylvia demos link above ]
19:35:24 <timeless> ... here's i've added a menu, and way to ...
19:35:34 <timeless> ... people should be required to implement and make it accessibile
19:35:42 <adrianba> s/RMIB/RNIB/g
19:35:44 <timeless> ... i don't think we can turn off a means to create custom controls
19:36:01 <Kai> q+ to say that a video player is part of the design of the page and must be fully customizable, including the controls
19:36:02 <timeless> Hixie: it's also probably a way for the UA to let the user pick the browser controls
19:36:23 <timeless> Cynthia: i was also going to say
19:36:34 <timeless> ... one of the main use cases is providing a certain feel
19:36:47 <timeless> ... supporting CSS so you can use the standard controls and just change their feel
19:36:51 <JF> +1 to Cynthia
19:36:56 <timeless> Jim: currently, user agents supply everything to javascript first
19:37:07 <timeless> ... there's no way to provide 
19:37:26 <timeless> ... there's no way for the UA to know what a custom control is
19:37:44 <timeless> ... so javascript gets precedences over key event capture
19:37:50 <timeless> sylvia: these act in sync
19:38:07 <timeless> ... if i play here, then both the custom and the default controls
19:38:16 <timeless> Matt: what if the custom controls are an overlay
19:38:24 <timeless> sylvia: you mean stacked
19:39:50 <timeless> [ scribe speaks ]
19:40:10 <timeless> sylvia: the requirement here
19:40:15 <timeless> ... is that there's a requirement for the user
19:40:21 <timeless> ... to turn off the custom controls
19:40:33 <timeless> Hixie: there might be a way
19:40:44 <timeless> Kai: Deutsche telecom
19:40:57 <timeless> ... the player is an integral part of the design of a page
19:41:07 <timeless> ... there's no way that it can't be customized by the page
19:41:22 <timeless> ... we can not at this point or even eventually determine how things will be
19:41:31 <timeless> Matt: ...
19:41:43 <timeless> ... using CSS the idea of author proposes, the user disposes
19:41:48 <timeless> ... e.g. easy youtube
19:41:57 <Kai> ack kai
19:41:57 <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to say that a video player is part of the design of the page and must be fully customizable, including the controls
19:41:58 <timeless> ... when you have the ability
19:42:13 <timeless> ... for overriding the author's preference as a user
19:42:17 <timeless> Cynthia: ...
19:42:29 <timeless> ... if there were standard controls which were stylable
19:42:45 <timeless> sylvia: right now the controls are not exposes in the DOM
19:42:56 <timeless> Hixie: the design is that we don't know what the UA controls are going to be
19:43:02 <JF> Easy YouTube: http://icant.co.uk/easy-youtube/
19:43:03 <timeless> ... they might not even be on the screen
19:43:06 <plh-salonA> HTML5/SVG video player: http://www.w3.org/2009/04/video-player.xhtml
19:43:14 <timeless> Cynthia: a semantic tag for play button
19:43:25 <timeless> ... whether it's in the 
19:43:35 <timeless> ... document or not
19:43:44 <timeless> ... provide a way to switch displays
19:44:13 <timeless> glenn: we need to provide a way to allow content providers to control e.g. the scrubber
19:44:20 <timeless> ... so that you can't e.g. skip the ads
19:44:42 <timeless> ... re closed captioning controls, i think the government will regulating it
19:44:56 <timeless> Janina: all controls are out of general frustration
19:45:04 <timeless> [ time check. 15 mins ]
19:45:08 <timeless> Topic: Audio Descriptions
19:45:36 <timeless> sylvia: there's also the issue that Glen brought up about bit rates
19:46:18 <timeless> ... so obviously there's a need to provided audio descriptions
19:46:19 <timeless> ... so we can help vision impaired
19:46:31 <timeless> ... we had on sunday a very interesting demo of using textual audio descriptions
19:46:35 <timeless> ... both using an SRT file
19:46:43 <timeless> ... but also from Hiro from IBM
19:46:56 <timeless> ... who showed a high quality speech synthesizer using textual audio descriptions
19:47:04 <timeless> ... my demo uses an SRT file
19:47:14 <timeless> ... where descriptions fall into the spaces where no person is speaking
19:47:23 <timeless> ... in front of background noise, background music
19:47:29 <timeless> ... that's where i placed the text
19:47:36 <timeless> ... that was hooked up to the screen reader using ARIA
19:47:43 <timeless> ... ARAI-live-regions
19:47:56 <timeless> ... in a div that i was hiding behind the video
19:48:04 <timeless> ... updated in sync with the text
19:48:11 <timeless> ... with start/stop times
19:48:19 <adrianba> s/ARAI/ARIA/
19:48:21 <timeless> ... therefore it was read out at the right times
19:48:36 <timeless> ... fortunately most people using a screen reader want things faster, not slower
19:48:44 <timeless> ... i'm wondering if that's a viable solution using text
19:49:06 <timeless> ... to help solve the audio description challenges
19:49:14 <timeless> John Folliot: using text
19:49:20 <timeless> ... to provide your descriptive audio
19:49:27 <timeless> ... is probably a really efficient way
19:49:33 <timeless> ... but there are lots of places where that will break
19:49:47 <timeless> ... so when you get to kiosks, where the hardware/software isn't available
19:49:51 <timeless> ... so allowing for that
19:49:57 <timeless> ... is probably an option
19:50:02 <timeless> Celly Kain: ...
19:50:11 <timeless> ... i'd like to support what John was saying
19:50:22 <timeless> ... the reality is that BBC is required by law to provide 10%
19:50:36 <timeless> ... of their content with audio described
19:50:41 <timeless> ... we're currently lobbying for 20%
19:50:42 <adrianba> s/Celly Kain/Sally Cain/g
19:50:49 <timeless> ... we've talked a lot about 
19:50:56 <timeless> Jim Allen: ...
19:50:58 <timeless> ... i like your idea
19:51:05 <timeless> ... I agree with john and sally
19:51:15 <timeless> ... but putting it in text, it makes it small and searchable
19:51:24 <cyns> +1 John and Sally.  Need to support bot
19:51:26 <timeless> ... for deaf-blind people then text 
19:51:30 <timeless> s/bot/both/
19:51:40 <timeless> ... then it comes out in the braille display
19:51:52 <timeless> dsinger: you can see an audio description of a video
19:51:53 <Laura> +1 John and Sally. 
19:51:54 <SCain> +1 to Jim's comment
19:51:58 <timeless> ... on media queries
19:52:08 <timeless> ... you can see a text version of that is a rather interesting audio codec
19:52:13 <timeless> ... a rather interesting compressed format
19:52:18 <timeless> .. using a plain text format
19:52:26 <timeless> ... which requires a special output converter
19:52:34 <timeless> ... using a textual format has huge advantages
19:52:39 <timeless> glenn: in many ways
19:52:45 <timeless> ... the reality for television broadcasts
19:52:56 <timeless> ... is repurposing existing content
19:53:10 <timeless> ... taking a separate audio track, sadly mono,
19:53:13 <timeless> ... and mixing it in
19:53:23 <timeless> Jim: the other thing, glenn, is that, broadcast media
19:53:34 <timeless> ... doesn't create the audio description from scratch
19:53:40 <timeless> ... we should rescue the script
19:53:44 <timeless> Janina: very briefly
19:53:50 <timeless> ... we should absolute hang on to the text
19:53:55 <timeless> ... there are a lot of good reasons
19:54:03 <timeless> ... just to have a text to speech engine to read it out
19:54:16 <timeless> ... but i'd rather speak up for artistic merit
19:54:31 <timeless> ... i'd like to hear an artist over a speech engine
19:54:41 <timeless> [ various praising Hiro's Text to Speak Engine ]
19:54:43 <timeless> sylvia: ...
19:54:55 <timeless> ... text description, is it an extra track
19:55:00 <timeless> glenn: in our environment
19:55:05 <timeless> ... there's a separate audio track
19:55:13 <timeless> ... which is mixed in with descriptive audio
19:55:21 <timeless> ... we would choose to deliver that as a separate audio track
19:55:27 <timeless> ... there's one stereo audio track
19:55:41 <timeless> ... flattened with the original track mixed in with the descriptions
19:55:45 <timeless> ... it's an alternate audio source
19:55:58 <timeless> ... there's one media with video+standard audio
19:56:18 <timeless> ... and there's an alternate audio only media which pairs with that video minus its audio
19:56:21 <timeless> sylvia: there are three ways to deal with it
19:56:24 <kford> kford has joined #video
19:56:30 <timeless> ... you could take the original video with the new merged audio track
19:56:42 <timeless> ... there's a way where a blind person would only want the merged audio track
19:56:47 <timeless> Sally: i want to make a comment
19:56:51 <timeless> ... it depends on the country
19:57:00 <timeless> ... in the UK the audio description is a distinct track
19:57:03 <timeless> ... not premixed
19:57:12 <timeless> ... there might not be a one size fits all
19:57:19 <timeless> Jim: the example from WGBH (boston)
19:57:21 <timeless> ... using SMIL
19:57:24 <JF> Hiro's (BM) player: http://www.research.ibm.com/trl/projects/acc_tech/aibrowser_e.htm
19:57:28 <timeless> ... there's video, the audio is separate
19:57:40 <timeless> ... the audio description is synced 
19:57:46 <timeless> glenn: audio is merged in the player
19:58:01 <timeless> sylvia: and how do we mark this up in html
19:58:12 <timeless> ... since this is all binary that needs to be synchronized
19:58:17 <timeless> ... do we have source tags which have source tags
19:58:24 <timeless> ... do we want to compose things with the video element
19:58:28 <timeless> ... towards the SMIL element
19:58:42 <timeless> glenn: there could be multiple media elements within the video element
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19:58:56 <timeless> Cynthia: does smile support video overlays for like sign language over
19:59:06 <timeless> sylvia: I think SMIL supports just about anything
19:59:25 <timeless> Joe Williams: Web3D
19:59:31 <timeless> ... canvas could overlay video
19:59:41 <timeless> Cynthia: the sign language is also a video
19:59:47 <timeless> sylvia: do we need to reinvent this
19:59:54 <timeless> ... or is there enough support for this
20:00:04 <timeless> ... or does video/html/canvas already support this
20:00:14 <timeless> Matt: ... green screen support
20:00:19 <timeless> ... you'll have a signer against a background
20:00:25 <timeless> ... you'll want to bunch out the background
20:00:32 <timeless> sylvia: that's been shown with canvas
20:00:40 <timeless> eric_carlson: doing that with multiple video files
20:00:50 <timeless> ... supports the media engine supports video with alpha
20:00:53 <timeless> ... which isn't common
20:01:05 <timeless> Cynthia: sometimes you want an opaque background behind the signer.
20:01:09 <timeless> sylvia: i'm aware that our time is up
20:01:18 <timeless> ... this was more of a brainstorm, than providing all the answers
20:01:28 <timeless> ... but we've contributed to the requirements analysis that's upcoming
20:01:34 <timeless> ... i'd like to close the session
20:01:41 <timeless> ... i'd like to thank everyone who was here
20:01:44 <timeless> ... and thanks to the scribe
20:01:47 <timeless> [ applause ]
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23:02:10 <jallan> have minutes been generated? if so what is url
23:05:35 <jallan> never mind, found them
23:16:11 <cardona507> jallan - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-video-minutes.html
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