00:02:18 Werner: use case of providing rich metadata for specific application is not relevant to us 00:02:46 ... we are assuming that metadata is needed for different providers 00:05:14 Veronique: we want to combine metadata of different formats 00:05:34 Jean-Pierre: it is not clear what will be done with our api and ontology 00:05:54 Joakim: to conclude previous discussions 00:06:12 ... let's get some feedback from browser implementors on the API document 00:06:37 Florian: would be good, in the meantime we can continue the work 00:06:51 ... and more clearly specify the use case of the API 00:07:24 action: joakim to contact browser implementors to review the API document 00:07:25 Created ACTION-176 - Contact browser implementors to review the API document [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2009-11-13]. 00:08:22 Joakim: should we include images that more clearly explain an application using our API and ontology 00:08:38 ... one case with API in web browser 00:08:58 ... second one with API in back-end 00:09:11 Werner: I can do that 00:10:29 action: werner to make schematic pictures of sample applications 00:10:29 Created ACTION-177 - Make schematic pictures of sample applications [on Werner Bailer - due 2009-11-13]. 00:12:59 Sylvia Pfeiffer: don't really have problems with the API document on first glance 00:13:27 Erik: should we use one function or several functions for each property? 00:13:34 ... Doug favored the first approach 00:13:44 Sylvia: one function seems better 00:14:46 To Werner: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Image:API-Drawing-TPAC09.JPG 00:15:31 Jean-Pierre: how will you access the metadata? 00:15:44 ... for example metadata included in picture 00:15:57 werner: this is a implementation issue 00:17:24 s/Sylvia/Silvia 00:18:03 Joakim: Doug suggested metadata on metadata 00:18:16 ... like creation date of metadata 00:18:27 ... should we include this? 00:19:17 Florian: maybe we should postpone this issue for now 00:19:37 daniel has joined #mediaann 00:20:06 action: chris to add this open issue to the wiki 00:20:06 Created ACTION-178 - Add this open issue to the wiki [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13]. 00:21:09 Joakim: how will we proceed with the subtypes? 00:21:47 Jean-Pierre: do we need to go into subtypes? 00:22:22 action: chris to add the subtype problem as an open issue to the wiki 00:22:23 Created ACTION-179 - Add the subtype problem as an open issue to the wiki [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13]. 00:22:50 action: chris to add the metadata on metadata issue to the open issues on the wiki 00:22:50 Created ACTION-180 - Add the metadata on metadata issue to the open issues on the wiki [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13]. 00:23:48 Joakim: ontology issues are done 00:24:06 ... next topic API open issues 00:24:20 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/API_Open_Issues 00:24:56 topic: return types 00:25:15 werner: some of the issues are related to what we discussed on the ontologies 00:25:37 ... it's not clear why some of the properties return no collection 00:26:01 ... the languages should result in a collection being returned 00:26:22 ... the same for the filtering according to the F2F 4 discussions 00:27:21 ... the strawman API summarizes the filters 00:27:23 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Strawman_API_design_and_notes 00:28:13 werner: if a property returns a list of values we should use plural notation 00:28:58 ... but if only one method will be used for these properties the issues need to be reviewed 00:32:27 the Strawman API is currently only partially represented in the API document 00:33:13 Joakim: are there other API's that can be used as an example? 00:33:29 Werner: are there other API's that have the same issue? 00:33:59 Joakim: OpenSocial 00:36:48 maybe we should await feedback from the browser implementors before changing the API document 00:36:52 to avoid redundant work 00:38:25 werner: we should ask feedback on the strawman api also 00:39:08 +1 00:39:17 +1 00:39:25 +1 00:39:55 topic: free text vs. formal values 00:40:52 werner: should we use strings or URIs? 00:41:36 joakim: if we allow both we need to be able to indicate which one is used 00:42:39 jean-pierre: a URI could lead to a complex structure 00:43:32 vmalais has joined #mediaann 00:45:08 this problem occurs if we have only one method or if we have different methods 00:45:56 joakim: if we do changes to the API, do we make a new version e.g., api-1.1 00:46:53 ... we should add a page on the wiki with decided changes 00:55:28 I can extend the DOMString return values to an object which holds a value and a type (denoting if the value is a URI or string) 00:55:53 action: chris to add the proposed solution to include URIs and strings to the wiki 00:55:53 Created ACTION-181 - Add the proposed solution to include URIs and strings to the wiki [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13]. 00:56:09 topic: duration 00:56:47 werner: is it safe to return the duration in seconds? 00:57:44 ... we should support the ways of specifying time as in the Media Fragments WG 00:59:01 how do they do this in Media Fragments WG? 00:59:16 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#naming-time 01:02:15 wonsuk: we can use seconds for the duration 01:06:45 +1 01:07:01 the media fragments timing can be converted to seconds 01:08:48 so the proposed solution is to use seconds 01:09:14 action: chris to add the use of seconds to the proposed solutions 01:09:14 Created ACTION-182 - Add the use of seconds to the proposed solutions [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13]. 01:10:48 topic: representation of dates 01:11:30 currently an own object is defined for the date 01:12:48 veronique: we could use timex 01:16:01 werner: the wiki has been updated on the resolved issues 01:17:11 timex2 document: http://fofoca.mitre.org/ 01:17:55 W3C Time ontology: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/ 01:18:20 joakim: dealt with most of the open issues on the agenda 01:18:38 ... tomorrow we should focus on the test suits 01:19:26 daniel: can we go through the candidate additional elements 01:19:28 http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-minutes.html 01:20:45 topic: review requirements document 01:21:37 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-media-annot-reqs-20090604/ 01:22:29 requirement 1 can be misunderstood that we support getting metadata in different formats 01:23:12 also the key issue is not about media objects in different formats, but metadata in different formats 01:23:15 joakim: who is going to do the updates? 01:23:41 ... we should collect the changes 01:24:01 ... werner can add the pictures to the requirements document 01:24:44 action: wonsuk to update the requirements document based on the proposed updates 01:24:44 Created ACTION-183 - Update the requirements document based on the proposed updates [on WonSuk Lee - due 2009-11-13]. 01:25:20 werner: we should be precis on structured and unstructured 01:26:07 s/precis/precise 01:27:41 joakim: at the point that the document was written we didn't know what we do now 01:28:32 werner: we can revise the requirements more in-depth 01:29:33 jean-pierre: is there consensus on the answer on the question: why not use DC? 01:30:11 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Improvements_/_Enhancement_for_a_revision_of_the_%22Ontology_for_Media_Resource_1.0%22_document 01:30:18 joakim is reading the answer... 01:30:36 joakim: this answer should be formulated in the ontology document 01:31:04 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Candidate_Additional_Elements 01:31:52 last item for today is ontology... 01:31:52 joakim: these answers were sent to the mailing list 01:32:04 topic: candidate additional elements 01:32:14 dsinger has joined #mediaann 01:32:17 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Candidate_Additional_Elements 01:32:31 joakim: who created this page? 01:32:36 werner: me 01:34:23 ... we got a request by the PFWG on including some additional elements for accessibility 01:35:50 ... the 'relation' property is usefull to link alternate versions 01:37:03 silvia: is it possible to get the tracks? 01:37:17 werner: yes we have close link with the media fragmentations WG 01:37:37 silvia: media queries would be interesting 01:37:58 ... David Singer is aware of this 01:38:10 silvia has joined #mediaann 01:38:17 http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/ 01:41:56 action: david to explain the link, difference or relation of our work with the Media Queries 01:41:56 Created ACTION-184 - Explain the link, difference or relation of our work with the Media Queries [on David Singer - due 2009-11-13]. 01:47:34 werner: it was also requested to include ways to identify resources required to play a resource 01:47:36 silvia has joined #mediaann 01:47:46 ... this could be solved using 'relation' property 01:48:06 topic: fictional character 01:48:55 the Timed Text WG includes finctional character 01:58:27 joakim: let's not touch this semantic hazzard 01:58:34 ... yet 01:58:56 the 'description' element allows for a textual represenation of the content 01:59:38 topic: media types 02:00:43 werner: are there more? 02:06:33 silvia: how about SMIL files 02:07:01 we should address the notion of containers 02:08:26 jean-pierre: a new property could be used for container 02:14:30 RRSAgent, make logs public 02:14:37 RRSAgent, draft minutes 02:14:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 02:17:50 Meeting: MAWG F2F 02:17:57 Chair: Joakim 02:18:04 RRSAgent, make logs public 02:18:10 RRSAgent, draft minutes 02:18:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 02:18:57 present: daniel, wonsuk, chris, florian, veronique, wonsuk, werner, jeasung, silvia 02:19:15 RRSAgent, make logs public 02:19:20 RRSAgent, draft minutes 02:19:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 02:37:56 joakim has joined #mediaann 03:49:25 dsinger has joined #mediaann 05:24:14 silvia has joined #mediaann 07:02:14 wonsuk has joined #mediaann 09:38:40 wonsuk has joined #mediaann 16:54:45 RRSAgent has joined #mediaann 16:54:45 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-irc 16:54:53 Meeting: MAWG F2F 16:55:03 Chair: Joakim 16:55:44 present: joakim, florian, veronique, werner 16:56:14 present+ daniel 17:02:02 veroniqueM has joined #mediaann 17:03:06 present+ wonsuk 17:03:11 scribe: wbailer 17:03:39 present+ john (stanford univ) 17:03:41 silvia has joined #mediaann 17:03:43 present+ rigo 17:04:02 present+ jeasung 17:04:15 wonsuk has joined #mediaann 17:04:22 JF has joined #mediaann 17:04:47 Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/01-media-minutes.html 17:05:07 IRC Loghttp://www.w3.org/2009/11/01-media-irc 17:05:14 http://www.w3.org/2009/11/01-media-irc 17:05:19 daniel: have not sufficient experience on creating test suite in the group, need advice 17:05:29 veronique: ask felix 17:05:38 Twitter http://twitter.com/#search?q=h5ma 17:06:42 topic: accessibility of mm 17:06:53 john: organsised workshop together with dsinger 17:07:11 ... not official w3c activity, but representants from different groups present 17:07:21 Daniel has joined #mediaann 17:07:34 ... task force in html5, work on accessibility of mm content 17:08:08 dsinger has joined #mediaann 17:08:23 john: alternative content needed to support accessibility (e.g. closed captions, subtitling) 17:08:41 ... not visibility to majority of users, but available on demand 17:09:07 joakim: why is it called closed caption? 17:09:27 john: open caption always present, closed caption switched on/off 17:09:44 ... could be burnt in or overlaid 17:10:08 ... need to keep file sizes small, transmit additional content only when needed, and not always in bundle 17:10:31 ... "pich & choose", implemented as SMIL file 17:10:41 ... MAWG could support this process 17:10:54 ... need switching mechanism 17:11:20 ... SMIL too complex for baseline functionality needed, actually only a subset is required 17:11:46 john: timeline is an issue, what is primary timeline, etc 17:12:07 ... one thing that shall be supported is descsriptive audio, 2 audio streams in parallel, need to avoid collissions 17:12:29 ... metadata could help to simplify decision making process 17:12:40 ... e.g. support asychronous timeline 17:13:18 joakim: domain of metadata is becoming increasingly complex, amount of data is growing 17:13:52 ... MAWG niche is to create a framework for mapping different formats to a simplified core set 17:14:47 john: would metadata about the media file and all support files (e.g. time stamp file, caption files) be in scope of MAWG? 17:15:12 joakim: discussed on describing SMIL with silvia yesterday 17:15:32 ... we should support describing SMIL file as a media resource 17:15:41 ... but not parse into SMIL file 17:17:34 john: david is thinking about using css media queries for querying requirements 17:18:46 ... is there overlap between css mq and mawg? 17:18:52 mawg needs to analyse this 17:19:16 joakim: is the prime use case a broadcast or a web scenario? 17:19:33 john: primary use case is web scenarios, viewing video on the we 17:19:37 s/we/web/ 17:20:10 ... e.g. watching personal video on airplane can in fact be implemented as web based media 17:20:39 ... commercially most relevant use case is youtube or itunes type of use cases 17:21:13 ... links also to internalisation 17:22:02 ... youtube allows to upload timestamp file with captions, use google translation to do real time translation 17:23:29 ... other example, medical video, doing professional translation, provide translated captions 17:24:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:24:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html Daniel 17:24:32 rrsagent, make logs public 17:25:24 john: libraries have agreed on dublin core for metadata, but is it the right thing to use for media held in libraries? 17:26:08 ... search can benefit from textual metadata associated with media, time stamps help to locate precise segments 17:26:21 joakim: is the use case finding versions of media? 17:27:03 john: how do we ensure that assets can be bound to the video, and that media are reusable 17:27:37 joakim: tandberg has a system for closed captions, will check how the handle these issues 17:28:47 ... in mawg we have relation element to point to other resources 17:29:10 introducing subtype of language to express spoken language, caption etc would be useful 17:29:31 joakim: at the ws, someone was asking for link to descriptive audio 17:30:18 john: how are annotations bound the media assets? 17:31:14 ... one concern is orphan files, ie. video + external is published, someone copies part of video but no additional files for accessibility 17:31:37 ... bind annotations and links support stuff to media file 17:31:54 veronique: we can express that things are link, we cannot enforce binding 17:32:03 ... we do not create an annotation format 17:32:13 ... making bridges between annotation formats 17:34:11 rigo: it's good that mawg bridges annotation formats, but why do you restrict to that 17:34:25 ... the things you are bridging come from industry 17:34:59 veronique: not sure, some formats have gone through standardisation process 17:35:34 rigo: they do not care about accessibility, allow third parties to extend mawg profile with accessibility metadata 17:35:50 ... do we limit ourselves to the existing and just bridge 17:36:41 ... or extend in addition 17:37:13 john: this would be useful for accessibility 17:37:30 joakim: we do not a placeholder for additional data 17:38:33 rigo: ontology could hold additional information 17:39:35 joakim: recommend format to support accessibility 17:41:22 john: make sure that mawg is aware of properties used 17:43:20 rigo: can propose p3p and odrl to add to formats considered by mawg for mapping 17:46:20 relates to comment of pfwg on required media, would need eg to parse smil file 17:46:51 john: SMIL is interesting cadidate, but maybe too complex, solution needs to be very simple 17:47:17 ... find balance between essential functionality and add more complex information 17:48:09 veronique: when querying, we could get results from different annotations, we have to decide which we trust more, and what has priority 17:48:18 john: are you dealing with this trust issue? 17:48:55 veronique: will look at these things one basic api is there, which annotator you trust more, not done work on that yet 17:49:12 rigo has joined #mediaann 17:49:22 ... felix talked about that to last tpac 17:49:36 for rights language: http://www.w3.org/TR/odrl/ 17:49:56 joakim: metadata working group is looking for a standardisation body to work with 17:50:09 http://www.metadataworkinggroup.org/ 17:51:10 Kangchan has joined #mediaann 17:51:16 joakim: the mwg has also defined an order in which properties from different formats are returned 17:51:41 rigo: we are working on reputation stuff etc, but it is still far ahead 17:51:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:51:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 17:51:58 rrsagent, make logs publis 17:52:06 rrsagent, make logs public 17:52:20 [john is leaving] 17:52:51 http://www.w3.org/TR/P3P11/ 17:53:11 http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/ 17:53:41 topic: pling 17:54:18 rigo: outcome of EU project prime, ws on policy languages 17:54:48 ... issues: link policy information to objects 17:55:43 ... things can be identified by URI, how to bind to object, still unsolved 17:57:33 ... apis identify objects (similar for mawg, geolocations), points to annotations 17:58:19 ... extension we want is in api 17:59:12 ... geolocation does not include policy, object provider should know 18:00:18 ... in geolocation, web page asks for geolocation, then browser asks for location service 18:01:01 ... api defines how to ask for location information 18:01:19 ... geolocation decided the page needs to handle policy information 18:01:35 joakim: what is the goal wrt policy 18:02:28 rigo: in geolocation, you e.g. want to give the location information, but not allow to track 18:02:47 Laura has joined #mediaann 18:02:54 ... e.g. for media: attach CC license, author information 18:03:24 ... there are privacy implications, eg access control personal videos on the web 18:04:17 joakim: where should the policy information be? 18:05:12 rigo: for geolocation use case, policy inf will be supported by dap 18:05:44 Kangchan is taling 18:06:16 kangchan: several level of policy description 18:06:29 ... is there any requirement on metadata? 18:06:46 joakim: is there policy on the metadata? 18:07:08 rigo: eg rights on large databases in EU 18:08:02 ... eg user generated metadata 18:08:17 JF has joined #mediaann 18:08:27 JF has left #mediaann 18:08:49 ... not thought about on policies on metadata levels 18:09:08 ... no binding issue if on semantic web 18:09:20 rigo: sees two possible solutions for mawg 18:10:12 ... 1) when information is collected in api and bound to media, return policy info to application, application may or may not consider it 18:11:27 ... 2) take into account odrl and p3p, reference odrl or p3p information, leave binding to object to odrl to p3p 18:12:08 ... problem is how does api know to which media object is related to 18:13:33 rigo: when object is identified, we can describe object, eg including odrl info 18:15:30 ... if ma properties point to odrl file, it is defined that odrl file applies 18:15:44 ... p3p has a file describing the bindings 18:18:49 ... it could be an optional point in the spec: if you want to use policy info, put link to policy file in media file of metadata 18:19:39 ... or future version one could store metadata augmented with policy information 18:21:05 rigo: policy languages have their own binding mechanisms 18:21:36 ... in this case the context of media resource would create new binding information 18:22:09 ... binding is created dynamically 18:23:46 wonsuk: how many formats currently support including policy information? 18:25:06 action: rigo to ask pling wg to provide text on including policy information 18:25:06 Sorry, couldn't find user - rigo 18:25:53 veronique: send input to mailing list 18:26:37 how much does policy overlap with license? 18:27:39 rigo: see email from renato (sent 2009-10-21 to MAWG chairs) 18:29:10 ... generalises license property 18:31:03 joakim: policy subtypes? 18:31:14 rigo: license, policy, access 18:32:00 veronique: would copyright be more appropriate? 18:32:19 rigo: rights is a subclass of policy 18:33:37 veronique: standards for privacy information? 18:33:42 rigo: p3p 18:33:56 ... research in primelife on more advanced languages 18:36:34 rigo: copyright and license are redundant 18:36:54 ... labeling is not comprehensible 18:38:54 ... copyright is a dc style identification, while license describes the use conditions 18:40:22 florian has joined #mediaann 18:41:37 joakim: please provide references to pling documents to be referenced in mawg documents 18:41:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:41:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 18:41:50 rrsagent, make logs public 18:47:42 Kai has joined #mediaann 19:11:30 scribeNick: florian 19:11:56 scribe: florian 19:12:03 topic: Test Suite 19:16:46 Joakim invited Doug to help us with the test suite 19:17:00 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:17:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer 19:17:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:17:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian 19:19:14 present+ Doug 19:19:46 Joakim: this is our first try to describe the test environment 19:20:02 ...we want to file media files 19:20:54 Doug: all tests are implemented, but no conformance tests 19:21:28 ...neither performance testing 19:21:59 ...testing should have any feature in scope, at least one test 19:22:21 ...also a mixture of features in one test 19:22:41 Joakim: what is a feature? 19:23:15 Doug: a test should have negative and positive tests 19:23:51 ...e.g. in the API a single interface would be a test (or a single value/paramater like title) 19:24:17 ...an example of a negative test would be, what happens if an empty paramater occurs 19:26:11 ...a combined test could be also if you combine the title property with a filtering 19:26:41 ...you should deal in the api, how metadata will be extracted from different sources 19:28:08 ...a test should take this into scope 19:29:11 Werner: a very common example for that would be technical metadata (some embedded, some external stored) 19:30:32 Doug: look at youtube videos, you have metadata about the video in the page (e.g. rating) that could be exposed with RDFa, but the actual metadata is in another place, because not embedded in the video 19:30:44 ...so you have to find all these sources 19:31:08 ...this will lead to the fact to identify scenarios 19:31:37 ...in what why you want to test the implementation 19:31:56 ...ragarding the ontology, talk to e.g. the OWL guys 19:32:20 s/ragarding/regarding/ 19:32:39 ...a good test would be the mapping between two formats 19:33:31 ...a negative test could be to try to map bad XMP data 19:34:18 reference call for implementation: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#cfi 19:34:23 ...what would the predictable result 19:34:36 Florian: should we make error handling? predefined error codes? 19:34:40 Doug: yes 19:36:06 ...testing format should work with mozilla and microsoft (reftest - reference test interface/platform) 19:37:25 ...the idea of reftest is to build primary tests 19:38:50 ...reftest is valuable, because it can be run automatically 19:38:59 ...you can reproduce the precondition in the test 19:40:16 Reftest: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mozilla_automated_testing 19:42:27 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/ElementTraversal/index.html 19:42:53 Doug: you could also use this for the api 19:43:11 ...should be in principle similar to the future MAWG API tests 19:43:28 ...but this is not a reftest 19:44:55 ...only css uses reftest yet 19:45:10 ...but you could start with simple test, like from the link above 19:45:43 Joakim: if somebody wants to implement the spec 19:46:09 ...how should we do the reference implementation? 19:46:19 Doug: you have to implement the whole spec 19:46:59 ...all things tagged with "must" has to be tested 19:48:37 ...the test could be rebuild on each other (e.g. the test for title is at the base the same for creator) 19:50:17 ...regarding the API design, browser vendors like the one method idea more than a set of methods 19:50:43 ...can provide you a quasi-spec for the api 19:53:19 http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/MediaObject/publish/ 19:53:37 Doug: this is the MAXIM spec 19:54:19 ...it is similar to the API spec (getMetadata) 19:55:13 ...you have to put a security section in the api doc 19:55:53 ...e.g. get a ressource from another domain, privacy concerns could arise 19:56:31 Joakim: like a disclaimer? 19:56:35 Doug: yes 19:56:59 ...you are facing three groups of people: implementors, users and guys who want to understand that 19:58:31 ...the disclaimer helps people to understand the whole, that the metadata could rise privacy issues 19:58:46 ...so an informative disclaimer helps 20:00:50 ...the shorter the spec will be, the more people will read 20:01:33 s/will read/will review 20:01:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 20:01:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian 20:02:44 Joakim: we will collect the ideas for the restructered API in a wiki entry 20:02:57 Laura has left #mediaann 20:03:04 Doug: will provide the information about browser vendors soon 20:03:36 Joakim: after that we will reflect the information of the wiki and the browser vendors into the API doc 20:07:20 Werner: one of the issues we have to deal with is, if the same property comes from different formats 20:07:34 ...what we should take and what ordering in the result array 20:07:44