IRC log of mediaann on 2009-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:02:18 [Chris]
Werner: use case of providing rich metadata for specific application is not relevant to us
00:02:46 [Chris]
... we are assuming that metadata is needed for different providers
00:05:14 [Chris]
Veronique: we want to combine metadata of different formats
00:05:34 [Chris]
Jean-Pierre: it is not clear what will be done with our api and ontology
00:05:54 [Chris]
Joakim: to conclude previous discussions
00:06:12 [Chris]
... let's get some feedback from browser implementors on the API document
00:06:37 [Chris]
Florian: would be good, in the meantime we can continue the work
00:06:51 [Chris]
... and more clearly specify the use case of the API
00:07:24 [Chris]
action: joakim to contact browser implementors to review the API document
00:07:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-176 - Contact browser implementors to review the API document [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2009-11-13].
00:08:22 [Chris]
Joakim: should we include images that more clearly explain an application using our API and ontology
00:08:38 [Chris]
... one case with API in web browser
00:08:58 [Chris]
... second one with API in back-end
00:09:11 [Chris]
Werner: I can do that
00:10:29 [Chris]
action: werner to make schematic pictures of sample applications
00:10:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-177 - Make schematic pictures of sample applications [on Werner Bailer - due 2009-11-13].
00:12:59 [Chris]
Sylvia Pfeiffer: don't really have problems with the API document on first glance
00:13:27 [Chris]
Erik: should we use one function or several functions for each property?
00:13:34 [Chris]
... Doug favored the first approach
00:13:44 [Chris]
Sylvia: one function seems better
00:14:46 [Daniel]
To Werner: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Image:API-Drawing-TPAC09.JPG
00:15:31 [Chris]
Jean-Pierre: how will you access the metadata?
00:15:44 [Chris]
... for example metadata included in picture
00:15:57 [Chris]
werner: this is a implementation issue
00:17:24 [Daniel]
s/Sylvia/Silvia
00:18:03 [Chris]
Joakim: Doug suggested metadata on metadata
00:18:16 [Chris]
... like creation date of metadata
00:18:27 [Chris]
... should we include this?
00:19:17 [Chris]
Florian: maybe we should postpone this issue for now
00:19:37 [daniel]
daniel has joined #mediaann
00:20:06 [Chris]
action: chris to add this open issue to the wiki
00:20:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-178 - Add this open issue to the wiki [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13].
00:21:09 [Chris]
Joakim: how will we proceed with the subtypes?
00:21:47 [Chris]
Jean-Pierre: do we need to go into subtypes?
00:22:22 [Chris]
action: chris to add the subtype problem as an open issue to the wiki
00:22:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-179 - Add the subtype problem as an open issue to the wiki [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13].
00:22:50 [Chris]
action: chris to add the metadata on metadata issue to the open issues on the wiki
00:22:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-180 - Add the metadata on metadata issue to the open issues on the wiki [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13].
00:23:48 [Chris]
Joakim: ontology issues are done
00:24:06 [Chris]
... next topic API open issues
00:24:20 [Chris]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/API_Open_Issues
00:24:56 [Chris]
topic: return types
00:25:15 [Chris]
werner: some of the issues are related to what we discussed on the ontologies
00:25:37 [Chris]
... it's not clear why some of the properties return no collection
00:26:01 [Chris]
... the languages should result in a collection being returned
00:26:22 [Chris]
... the same for the filtering according to the F2F 4 discussions
00:27:21 [Chris]
... the strawman API summarizes the filters
00:27:23 [Chris]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Strawman_API_design_and_notes
00:28:13 [Chris]
werner: if a property returns a list of values we should use plural notation
00:28:58 [Chris]
... but if only one method will be used for these properties the issues need to be reviewed
00:32:27 [Chris]
the Strawman API is currently only partially represented in the API document
00:33:13 [Chris]
Joakim: are there other API's that can be used as an example?
00:33:29 [Chris]
Werner: are there other API's that have the same issue?
00:33:59 [Chris]
Joakim: OpenSocial
00:36:48 [Chris]
maybe we should await feedback from the browser implementors before changing the API document
00:36:52 [Chris]
to avoid redundant work
00:38:25 [Chris]
werner: we should ask feedback on the strawman api also
00:39:08 [Chris]
+1
00:39:17 [wonsuk]
+1
00:39:25 [florian]
+1
00:39:55 [Chris]
topic: free text vs. formal values
00:40:52 [Chris]
werner: should we use strings or URIs?
00:41:36 [Chris]
joakim: if we allow both we need to be able to indicate which one is used
00:42:39 [Chris]
jean-pierre: a URI could lead to a complex structure
00:43:32 [vmalais]
vmalais has joined #mediaann
00:45:08 [Chris]
this problem occurs if we have only one method or if we have different methods
00:45:56 [Chris]
joakim: if we do changes to the API, do we make a new version e.g., api-1.1
00:46:53 [Chris]
... we should add a page on the wiki with decided changes
00:55:28 [Chris]
I can extend the DOMString return values to an object which holds a value and a type (denoting if the value is a URI or string)
00:55:53 [Chris]
action: chris to add the proposed solution to include URIs and strings to the wiki
00:55:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-181 - Add the proposed solution to include URIs and strings to the wiki [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13].
00:56:09 [Chris]
topic: duration
00:56:47 [Chris]
werner: is it safe to return the duration in seconds?
00:57:44 [Chris]
... we should support the ways of specifying time as in the Media Fragments WG
00:59:01 [Chris]
how do they do this in Media Fragments WG?
00:59:16 [wbailer]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#naming-time
01:02:15 [Chris]
wonsuk: we can use seconds for the duration
01:06:45 [Chris]
+1
01:07:01 [Chris]
the media fragments timing can be converted to seconds
01:08:48 [Chris]
so the proposed solution is to use seconds
01:09:14 [Chris]
action: chris to add the use of seconds to the proposed solutions
01:09:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-182 - Add the use of seconds to the proposed solutions [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13].
01:10:48 [Chris]
topic: representation of dates
01:11:30 [Chris]
currently an own object is defined for the date
01:12:48 [Chris]
veronique: we could use timex
01:16:01 [Chris]
werner: the wiki has been updated on the resolved issues
01:17:11 [vmalais]
timex2 document: http://fofoca.mitre.org/
01:17:55 [vmalais]
W3C Time ontology: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-time/
01:18:20 [Chris]
joakim: dealt with most of the open issues on the agenda
01:18:38 [Chris]
... tomorrow we should focus on the test suits
01:19:26 [Chris]
daniel: can we go through the candidate additional elements
01:19:28 [wonsuk]
http://www.w3.org/2009/06/26-mediaann-minutes.html
01:20:45 [Chris]
topic: review requirements document
01:21:37 [Chris]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-media-annot-reqs-20090604/
01:22:29 [wbailer]
requirement 1 can be misunderstood that we support getting metadata in different formats
01:23:12 [wbailer]
also the key issue is not about media objects in different formats, but metadata in different formats
01:23:15 [Chris]
joakim: who is going to do the updates?
01:23:41 [Chris]
... we should collect the changes
01:24:01 [Chris]
... werner can add the pictures to the requirements document
01:24:44 [Chris]
action: wonsuk to update the requirements document based on the proposed updates
01:24:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-183 - Update the requirements document based on the proposed updates [on WonSuk Lee - due 2009-11-13].
01:25:20 [Chris]
werner: we should be precis on structured and unstructured
01:26:07 [Chris]
s/precis/precise
01:27:41 [Chris]
joakim: at the point that the document was written we didn't know what we do now
01:28:32 [Chris]
werner: we can revise the requirements more in-depth
01:29:33 [Chris]
jean-pierre: is there consensus on the answer on the question: why not use DC?
01:30:11 [Chris]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Improvements_/_Enhancement_for_a_revision_of_the_%22Ontology_for_Media_Resource_1.0%22_document
01:30:18 [Chris]
joakim is reading the answer...
01:30:36 [Chris]
joakim: this answer should be formulated in the ontology document
01:31:04 [daniel]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Candidate_Additional_Elements
01:31:52 [daniel]
last item for today is ontology...
01:31:52 [Chris]
joakim: these answers were sent to the mailing list
01:32:04 [Chris]
topic: candidate additional elements
01:32:14 [dsinger]
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01:32:17 [Chris]
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Candidate_Additional_Elements
01:32:31 [Chris]
joakim: who created this page?
01:32:36 [Chris]
werner: me
01:34:23 [Chris]
... we got a request by the PFWG on including some additional elements for accessibility
01:35:50 [Chris]
... the 'relation' property is usefull to link alternate versions
01:37:03 [Chris]
silvia: is it possible to get the tracks?
01:37:17 [Chris]
werner: yes we have close link with the media fragmentations WG
01:37:37 [Chris]
silvia: media queries would be interesting
01:37:58 [Chris]
... David Singer is aware of this
01:38:10 [silvia]
silvia has joined #mediaann
01:38:17 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/
01:41:56 [Chris]
action: david to explain the link, difference or relation of our work with the Media Queries
01:41:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-184 - Explain the link, difference or relation of our work with the Media Queries [on David Singer - due 2009-11-13].
01:47:34 [Chris]
werner: it was also requested to include ways to identify resources required to play a resource
01:47:36 [silvia]
silvia has joined #mediaann
01:47:46 [Chris]
... this could be solved using 'relation' property
01:48:06 [Chris]
topic: fictional character
01:48:55 [Chris]
the Timed Text WG includes finctional character
01:58:27 [Chris]
joakim: let's not touch this semantic hazzard
01:58:34 [Chris]
... yet
01:58:56 [Chris]
the 'description' element allows for a textual represenation of the content
01:59:38 [Chris]
topic: media types
02:00:43 [Chris]
werner: are there more?
02:06:33 [Chris]
silvia: how about SMIL files
02:07:01 [Chris]
we should address the notion of containers
02:08:26 [Chris]
jean-pierre: a new property could be used for container
02:14:30 [wbailer]
RRSAgent, make logs public
02:14:37 [wbailer]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:14:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
02:17:50 [wbailer]
Meeting: MAWG F2F
02:17:57 [wbailer]
Chair: Joakim
02:18:04 [wbailer]
RRSAgent, make logs public
02:18:10 [wbailer]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:18:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
02:18:57 [wbailer]
present: daniel, wonsuk, chris, florian, veronique, wonsuk, werner, jeasung, silvia
02:19:15 [wbailer]
RRSAgent, make logs public
02:19:20 [wbailer]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:19:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
02:37:56 [joakim]
joakim has joined #mediaann
03:49:25 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #mediaann
05:24:14 [silvia]
silvia has joined #mediaann
07:02:14 [wonsuk]
wonsuk has joined #mediaann
09:38:40 [wonsuk]
wonsuk has joined #mediaann
16:54:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mediaann
16:54:45 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-irc
16:54:53 [wbailer]
Meeting: MAWG F2F
16:55:03 [wbailer]
Chair: Joakim
16:55:44 [wbailer]
present: joakim, florian, veronique, werner
16:56:14 [wbailer]
present+ daniel
17:02:02 [veroniqueM]
veroniqueM has joined #mediaann
17:03:06 [wbailer]
present+ wonsuk
17:03:11 [wbailer]
scribe: wbailer
17:03:39 [wbailer]
present+ john (stanford univ)
17:03:41 [silvia]
silvia has joined #mediaann
17:03:43 [wbailer]
present+ rigo
17:04:02 [wbailer]
present+ jeasung
17:04:15 [wonsuk]
wonsuk has joined #mediaann
17:04:22 [JF]
JF has joined #mediaann
17:04:47 [JF]
Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2009/11/01-media-minutes.html
17:05:07 [JF]
IRC Loghttp://www.w3.org/2009/11/01-media-irc
17:05:14 [JF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/01-media-irc
17:05:19 [wbailer]
daniel: have not sufficient experience on creating test suite in the group, need advice
17:05:29 [wbailer]
veronique: ask felix
17:05:38 [JF]
Twitter http://twitter.com/#search?q=h5ma
17:06:42 [wbailer]
topic: accessibility of mm
17:06:53 [wbailer]
john: organsised workshop together with dsinger
17:07:11 [wbailer]
... not official w3c activity, but representants from different groups present
17:07:21 [Daniel]
Daniel has joined #mediaann
17:07:34 [wbailer]
... task force in html5, work on accessibility of mm content
17:08:08 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #mediaann
17:08:23 [wbailer]
john: alternative content needed to support accessibility (e.g. closed captions, subtitling)
17:08:41 [wbailer]
... not visibility to majority of users, but available on demand
17:09:07 [wbailer]
joakim: why is it called closed caption?
17:09:27 [wbailer]
john: open caption always present, closed caption switched on/off
17:09:44 [wbailer]
... could be burnt in or overlaid
17:10:08 [wbailer]
... need to keep file sizes small, transmit additional content only when needed, and not always in bundle
17:10:31 [wbailer]
... "pich & choose", implemented as SMIL file
17:10:41 [wbailer]
... MAWG could support this process
17:10:54 [wbailer]
... need switching mechanism
17:11:20 [wbailer]
... SMIL too complex for baseline functionality needed, actually only a subset is required
17:11:46 [wbailer]
john: timeline is an issue, what is primary timeline, etc
17:12:07 [wbailer]
... one thing that shall be supported is descsriptive audio, 2 audio streams in parallel, need to avoid collissions
17:12:29 [wbailer]
... metadata could help to simplify decision making process
17:12:40 [wbailer]
... e.g. support asychronous timeline
17:13:18 [wbailer]
joakim: domain of metadata is becoming increasingly complex, amount of data is growing
17:13:52 [wbailer]
... MAWG niche is to create a framework for mapping different formats to a simplified core set
17:14:47 [wbailer]
john: would metadata about the media file and all support files (e.g. time stamp file, caption files) be in scope of MAWG?
17:15:12 [wbailer]
joakim: discussed on describing SMIL with silvia yesterday
17:15:32 [wbailer]
... we should support describing SMIL file as a media resource
17:15:41 [wbailer]
... but not parse into SMIL file
17:17:34 [wbailer]
john: david is thinking about using css media queries for querying requirements
17:18:46 [wbailer]
... is there overlap between css mq and mawg?
17:18:52 [wbailer]
mawg needs to analyse this
17:19:16 [wbailer]
joakim: is the prime use case a broadcast or a web scenario?
17:19:33 [wbailer]
john: primary use case is web scenarios, viewing video on the we
17:19:37 [wbailer]
s/we/web/
17:20:10 [wbailer]
... e.g. watching personal video on airplane can in fact be implemented as web based media
17:20:39 [wbailer]
... commercially most relevant use case is youtube or itunes type of use cases
17:21:13 [wbailer]
... links also to internalisation
17:22:02 [wbailer]
... youtube allows to upload timestamp file with captions, use google translation to do real time translation
17:23:29 [wbailer]
... other example, medical video, doing professional translation, provide translated captions
17:24:17 [Daniel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:24:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html Daniel
17:24:32 [wbailer]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:25:24 [wbailer]
john: libraries have agreed on dublin core for metadata, but is it the right thing to use for media held in libraries?
17:26:08 [wbailer]
... search can benefit from textual metadata associated with media, time stamps help to locate precise segments
17:26:21 [wbailer]
joakim: is the use case finding versions of media?
17:27:03 [wbailer]
john: how do we ensure that assets can be bound to the video, and that media are reusable
17:27:37 [wbailer]
joakim: tandberg has a system for closed captions, will check how the handle these issues
17:28:47 [wbailer]
... in mawg we have relation element to point to other resources
17:29:10 [wbailer]
introducing subtype of language to express spoken language, caption etc would be useful
17:29:31 [wbailer]
joakim: at the ws, someone was asking for link to descriptive audio
17:30:18 [wbailer]
john: how are annotations bound the media assets?
17:31:14 [wbailer]
... one concern is orphan files, ie. video + external is published, someone copies part of video but no additional files for accessibility
17:31:37 [wbailer]
... bind annotations and links support stuff to media file
17:31:54 [wbailer]
veronique: we can express that things are link, we cannot enforce binding
17:32:03 [wbailer]
... we do not create an annotation format
17:32:13 [wbailer]
... making bridges between annotation formats
17:34:11 [wbailer]
rigo: it's good that mawg bridges annotation formats, but why do you restrict to that
17:34:25 [wbailer]
... the things you are bridging come from industry
17:34:59 [wbailer]
veronique: not sure, some formats have gone through standardisation process
17:35:34 [wbailer]
rigo: they do not care about accessibility, allow third parties to extend mawg profile with accessibility metadata
17:35:50 [wbailer]
... do we limit ourselves to the existing and just bridge
17:36:41 [wbailer]
... or extend in addition
17:37:13 [wbailer]
john: this would be useful for accessibility
17:37:30 [wbailer]
joakim: we do not a placeholder for additional data
17:38:33 [wbailer]
rigo: ontology could hold additional information
17:39:35 [wbailer]
joakim: recommend format to support accessibility
17:41:22 [wbailer]
john: make sure that mawg is aware of properties used
17:43:20 [wbailer]
rigo: can propose p3p and odrl to add to formats considered by mawg for mapping
17:46:20 [wbailer]
relates to comment of pfwg on required media, would need eg to parse smil file
17:46:51 [wbailer]
john: SMIL is interesting cadidate, but maybe too complex, solution needs to be very simple
17:47:17 [wbailer]
... find balance between essential functionality and add more complex information
17:48:09 [wbailer]
veronique: when querying, we could get results from different annotations, we have to decide which we trust more, and what has priority
17:48:18 [wbailer]
john: are you dealing with this trust issue?
17:48:55 [wbailer]
veronique: will look at these things one basic api is there, which annotator you trust more, not done work on that yet
17:49:12 [rigo]
rigo has joined #mediaann
17:49:22 [wbailer]
... felix talked about that to last tpac
17:49:36 [rigo]
for rights language: http://www.w3.org/TR/odrl/
17:49:56 [wbailer]
joakim: metadata working group is looking for a standardisation body to work with
17:50:09 [Daniel]
http://www.metadataworkinggroup.org/
17:51:10 [Kangchan]
Kangchan has joined #mediaann
17:51:16 [wbailer]
joakim: the mwg has also defined an order in which properties from different formats are returned
17:51:41 [wbailer]
rigo: we are working on reputation stuff etc, but it is still far ahead
17:51:51 [wbailer]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:51:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
17:51:58 [wbailer]
rrsagent, make logs publis
17:52:06 [wbailer]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:52:20 [wbailer]
[john is leaving]
17:52:51 [rigo]
http://www.w3.org/TR/P3P11/
17:53:11 [rigo]
http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/
17:53:41 [wbailer]
topic: pling
17:54:18 [wbailer]
rigo: outcome of EU project prime, ws on policy languages
17:54:48 [wbailer]
... issues: link policy information to objects
17:55:43 [wbailer]
... things can be identified by URI, how to bind to object, still unsolved
17:57:33 [wbailer]
... apis identify objects (similar for mawg, geolocations), points to annotations
17:58:19 [wbailer]
... extension we want is in api
17:59:12 [wbailer]
... geolocation does not include policy, object provider should know
18:00:18 [wbailer]
... in geolocation, web page asks for geolocation, then browser asks for location service
18:01:01 [wbailer]
... api defines how to ask for location information
18:01:19 [wbailer]
... geolocation decided the page needs to handle policy information
18:01:35 [wbailer]
joakim: what is the goal wrt policy
18:02:28 [wbailer]
rigo: in geolocation, you e.g. want to give the location information, but not allow to track
18:02:47 [Laura]
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18:02:54 [wbailer]
... e.g. for media: attach CC license, author information
18:03:24 [wbailer]
... there are privacy implications, eg access control personal videos on the web
18:04:17 [wbailer]
joakim: where should the policy information be?
18:05:12 [wbailer]
rigo: for geolocation use case, policy inf will be supported by dap
18:05:44 [Daniel]
Kangchan is taling
18:06:16 [wbailer]
kangchan: several level of policy description
18:06:29 [wbailer]
... is there any requirement on metadata?
18:06:46 [wbailer]
joakim: is there policy on the metadata?
18:07:08 [wbailer]
rigo: eg rights on large databases in EU
18:08:02 [wbailer]
... eg user generated metadata
18:08:17 [JF]
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18:08:27 [JF]
JF has left #mediaann
18:08:49 [wbailer]
... not thought about on policies on metadata levels
18:09:08 [wbailer]
... no binding issue if on semantic web
18:09:20 [wbailer]
rigo: sees two possible solutions for mawg
18:10:12 [wbailer]
... 1) when information is collected in api and bound to media, return policy info to application, application may or may not consider it
18:11:27 [wbailer]
... 2) take into account odrl and p3p, reference odrl or p3p information, leave binding to object to odrl to p3p
18:12:08 [wbailer]
... problem is how does api know to which media object is related to
18:13:33 [wbailer]
rigo: when object is identified, we can describe object, eg including odrl info
18:15:30 [wbailer]
... if ma properties point to odrl file, it is defined that odrl file applies
18:15:44 [wbailer]
... p3p has a file describing the bindings
18:18:49 [wbailer]
... it could be an optional point in the spec: if you want to use policy info, put link to policy file in media file of metadata
18:19:39 [wbailer]
... or future version one could store metadata augmented with policy information
18:21:05 [wbailer]
rigo: policy languages have their own binding mechanisms
18:21:36 [wbailer]
... in this case the context of media resource would create new binding information
18:22:09 [wbailer]
... binding is created dynamically
18:23:46 [wbailer]
wonsuk: how many formats currently support including policy information?
18:25:06 [wbailer]
action: rigo to ask pling wg to provide text on including policy information
18:25:06 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - rigo
18:25:53 [wbailer]
veronique: send input to mailing list
18:26:37 [wbailer]
how much does policy overlap with license?
18:27:39 [wbailer]
rigo: see email from renato (sent 2009-10-21 to MAWG chairs)
18:29:10 [wbailer]
... generalises license property
18:31:03 [wbailer]
joakim: policy subtypes?
18:31:14 [wbailer]
rigo: license, policy, access
18:32:00 [wbailer]
veronique: would copyright be more appropriate?
18:32:19 [wbailer]
rigo: rights is a subclass of policy
18:33:37 [wbailer]
veronique: standards for privacy information?
18:33:42 [wbailer]
rigo: p3p
18:33:56 [wbailer]
... research in primelife on more advanced languages
18:36:34 [wbailer]
rigo: copyright and license are redundant
18:36:54 [wbailer]
... labeling is not comprehensible
18:38:54 [wbailer]
... copyright is a dc style identification, while license describes the use conditions
18:40:22 [florian]
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18:41:37 [wbailer]
joakim: please provide references to pling documents to be referenced in mawg documents
18:41:44 [wbailer]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:41:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
18:41:50 [wbailer]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:47:42 [Kai]
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19:11:30 [florian]
scribeNick: florian
19:11:56 [florian]
scribe: florian
19:12:03 [florian]
topic: Test Suite
19:16:46 [florian]
Joakim invited Doug to help us with the test suite
19:17:00 [wbailer]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:17:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
19:17:02 [florian]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:17:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian
19:19:14 [florian]
present+ Doug
19:19:46 [florian]
Joakim: this is our first try to describe the test environment
19:20:02 [florian]
...we want to file media files
19:20:54 [florian]
Doug: all tests are implemented, but no conformance tests
19:21:28 [florian]
...neither performance testing
19:21:59 [florian]
...testing should have any feature in scope, at least one test
19:22:21 [florian]
...also a mixture of features in one test
19:22:41 [florian]
Joakim: what is a feature?
19:23:15 [florian]
Doug: a test should have negative and positive tests
19:23:51 [florian]
...e.g. in the API a single interface would be a test (or a single value/paramater like title)
19:24:17 [florian]
...an example of a negative test would be, what happens if an empty paramater occurs
19:26:11 [florian]
...a combined test could be also if you combine the title property with a filtering
19:26:41 [florian]
...you should deal in the api, how metadata will be extracted from different sources
19:28:08 [florian]
...a test should take this into scope
19:29:11 [florian]
Werner: a very common example for that would be technical metadata (some embedded, some external stored)
19:30:32 [florian]
Doug: look at youtube videos, you have metadata about the video in the page (e.g. rating) that could be exposed with RDFa, but the actual metadata is in another place, because not embedded in the video
19:30:44 [florian]
...so you have to find all these sources
19:31:08 [florian]
...this will lead to the fact to identify scenarios
19:31:37 [florian]
...in what why you want to test the implementation
19:31:56 [florian]
...ragarding the ontology, talk to e.g. the OWL guys
19:32:20 [wbailer]
s/ragarding/regarding/
19:32:39 [florian]
...a good test would be the mapping between two formats
19:33:31 [florian]
...a negative test could be to try to map bad XMP data
19:34:18 [Daniel]
reference call for implementation: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#cfi
19:34:23 [florian]
...what would the predictable result
19:34:36 [florian]
Florian: should we make error handling? predefined error codes?
19:34:40 [florian]
Doug: yes
19:36:06 [florian]
...testing format should work with mozilla and microsoft (reftest - reference test interface/platform)
19:37:25 [florian]
...the idea of reftest is to build primary tests
19:38:50 [florian]
...reftest is valuable, because it can be run automatically
19:38:59 [florian]
...you can reproduce the precondition in the test
19:40:16 [florian]
Reftest: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mozilla_automated_testing
19:42:27 [joakim]
http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/ElementTraversal/index.html
19:42:53 [florian]
Doug: you could also use this for the api
19:43:11 [florian]
...should be in principle similar to the future MAWG API tests
19:43:28 [florian]
...but this is not a reftest
19:44:55 [florian]
...only css uses reftest yet
19:45:10 [florian]
...but you could start with simple test, like from the link above
19:45:43 [florian]
Joakim: if somebody wants to implement the spec
19:46:09 [florian]
...how should we do the reference implementation?
19:46:19 [florian]
Doug: you have to implement the whole spec
19:46:59 [florian]
...all things tagged with "must" has to be tested
19:48:37 [florian]
...the test could be rebuild on each other (e.g. the test for title is at the base the same for creator)
19:50:17 [florian]
...regarding the API design, browser vendors like the one method idea more than a set of methods
19:50:43 [florian]
...can provide you a quasi-spec for the api
19:53:19 [joakim]
http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/MediaObject/publish/
19:53:37 [florian]
Doug: this is the MAXIM spec
19:54:19 [florian]
...it is similar to the API spec (getMetadata)
19:55:13 [florian]
...you have to put a security section in the api doc
19:55:53 [florian]
...e.g. get a ressource from another domain, privacy concerns could arise
19:56:31 [florian]
Joakim: like a disclaimer?
19:56:35 [florian]
Doug: yes
19:56:59 [florian]
...you are facing three groups of people: implementors, users and guys who want to understand that
19:58:31 [florian]
...the disclaimer helps people to understand the whole, that the metadata could rise privacy issues
19:58:46 [florian]
...so an informative disclaimer helps
20:00:50 [florian]
...the shorter the spec will be, the more people will read
20:01:33 [florian]
s/will read/will review
20:01:59 [florian]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:01:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian
20:02:44 [florian]
Joakim: we will collect the ideas for the restructered API in a wiki entry
20:02:57 [Laura]
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20:03:04 [florian]
Doug: will provide the information about browser vendors soon
20:03:36 [florian]
Joakim: after that we will reflect the information of the wiki and the browser vendors into the API doc
20:07:20 [florian]
Werner: one of the issues we have to deal with is, if the same property comes from different formats
20:07:34 [florian]
...what we should take and what ordering in the result array
20:07:44 [florian]
Doug: let the user decide what ordering they want
20:08:32 [florian]
...you could expose a graph of the metadata
20:09:52 [silvia]
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20:12:54 [florian]
...the objects in the array hold data about what kind of type they are
20:13:12 [florian]
...so you could deal with structured and unstructered data
20:13:20 [florian]
...and you can search on it
20:14:30 [florian]
Joakim: could we define the graph idea in WebIDL?
20:15:38 [florian]
Doug: perhaps with an array chain and give the author the opportunity to navigate in the chain
20:15:57 [florian]
...this could be a model, not the structure
20:16:23 [florian]
Werner: maybe always returning the context is a good idea
20:16:42 [florian]
...we need to have a simple way to access it in a first way
20:16:53 [florian]
...the graph should not be part of the api
20:17:19 [florian]
Doug: context is the most gentel way to deal with it
20:17:32 [florian]
...context could be e.g. the parent node
20:18:15 [florian]
...this concept of context could help dealing with the filtering
20:19:10 [florian]
Werner: Accessing the subtypes directly is a strong argument for the one-method API
20:19:22 [florian]
Doug: have a look at the selectors api
20:22:13 [wbailer]
http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-api/
20:22:32 [florian]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:22:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian
20:24:41 [florian]
action: joakim to ask Doug for the alternative implementation/syntx for the API doc
20:24:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-186 - Ask Doug for the alternative implementation/syntx for the API doc [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2009-11-13].
20:25:59 [florian]
action: Chris to create a WebIDL specifiction to the generic GET Method
20:25:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-187 - Create a WebIDL specifiction to the generic GET Method [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-11-13].
20:27:05 [wbailer]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:27:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html wbailer
20:38:13 [silvia]
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florian has joined #mediaann
21:41:22 [Kangchan]
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21:43:55 [florian]
The group is back from lunch
21:44:29 [florian]
Topic: Summary of Dougs feedback to the API document
21:45:11 [florian]
Werner: if people want to work on a graph structure, we could provide getRDF()
21:45:29 [florian]
...but we must have a formal ontology in that case
21:46:31 [joakim]
One Function To Rule them All!
21:46:54 [florian]
+1 @ Joakim
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21:47:51 [florian]
Wonsuk: we should wait until we get the feedback from the browser vendors
21:48:06 [florian]
Veronique: oyu could use filtering more easily with this approach
21:48:32 [florian]
Werner: better for the browser vendors to insert only one method stub in their interfaces
21:48:51 [florian]
...you can also have an additional layr in front of it
21:48:59 [florian]
s/layr/layer
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21:52:02 [florian]
Florian: perhaps make the general description in the spec and in an informal part the set of methods approach as an additional layer
21:54:06 [florian]
Joakim: the one-method implementation would make us even more generic regarding the possibility to query subproperties
21:56:06 [florian]
action: Joakim to put the "Error Handling" topic into the agenda of the next telecon
21:56:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-188 - Put the "Error Handling" topic into the agenda of the next telecon [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2009-11-13].
21:56:34 [florian]
Werner: we have to define a subset of subproperties in order to query them
21:57:54 [florian]
...the set of methods approach can handle queries without defined subproperties
22:00:16 [florian]
Joakim: should someone work on the subproperties?
22:02:27 [florian]
action: tobias to work on the the subproperties (http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Sub_Types)
22:02:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-189 - Work on the the subproperties (http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Sub_Types) [on Tobias Bürger - due 2009-11-13].
22:03:16 [florian]
Veronique: should we rename the licence property to policy?
22:03:26 [florian]
Werner: policy is too generic
22:04:16 [florian]
...no we can build it in the hierarchy
22:05:09 [florian]
s/can build it in/can add it to
22:05:24 [florian]
Werner: a policy should be something formal
22:05:37 [florian]
...copyright is only a descriptive thing
22:05:55 [florian]
Wonsuk: why are people discussing the namen of properties?
22:06:05 [florian]
...we should focus on the mapping
22:06:31 [florian]
Joakim: mapping will be as is, only the name will be changed
22:08:28 [florian]
Wonsuk: basically we must take into account what subproperty is needed for the mapping
22:08:57 [florian]
Joakim: Tobias should take care of the subproperties topic
22:10:08 [florian]
Werner: we can start collecting subproperties at the wiki page
22:10:55 [florian]
Topic: Brainstorming regarding the Testsuite
22:11:02 [florian]
Joakim: we should make a wiki page
22:11:40 [florian]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:11:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian
22:12:17 [florian]
s/Testsuite/Test Suite
22:12:19 [florian]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:12:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian
22:15:04 [florian]
Werner: we should define a set of test data and the correct results/behaviour for tests
22:15:09 [silvia]
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22:15:17 [florian]
...e.g. set of return values, or exceptions
22:15:25 [florian]
...just like JUnit
22:16:14 [florian]
...we have to decide what error handling we want to use
22:16:51 [florian]
Wonsuk: we should define test cases
22:18:13 [florian]
...do we have to take all metadata formats into scope?
22:18:28 [florian]
Veronique: no, doug said we should only take 2 or 3 into account
22:18:57 [florian]
Werner: you can derive enough test cases with 2-3 metadata formats
22:19:21 [florian]
...we do not make conformance tests
22:19:40 [florian]
Veronique: we have to also define negative test cases
22:20:14 [florian]
s/to also/also to
22:20:42 [florian]
Joakim: we should have a test for at least the top level at first
22:21:24 [florian]
Werner: we should do it also for the subproperties
22:22:53 [florian]
...should define tests that retrieve metadata from more than one source
22:25:24 [florian]
Veronique: the document should specify, what kind of metadata sourcen (e.g., RDFa) are in scope
22:26:04 [florian]
Werner: technically it is not more effort extracting RDFa related EXIF
22:26:12 [florian]
...anything else should be excluded
22:27:25 [florian]
Florian: we should not forget to Dougs hint to build test cases using "broken" metadata
22:27:49 [florian]
s/forget to Dougs/forget Dougs
22:28:25 [florian]
Werner: we should also deal with different types of multimedia data (e.g. MPEG, SMIL)
22:28:48 [florian]
...what will be a valid response, if you query the bandwith of a SMIL file?!
22:29:42 [florian]
Joakim: we should choose a particular extraction app
22:29:49 [florian]
Werner: this is a risk
22:29:57 [florian]
...but it?s not a conformance test
22:32:12 [florian]
Wonsuk: shall we provide a report regarding the testing?
22:34:12 [florian]
Werner: it would be nice, if the test suite could be executed on the server _and_ the client
22:36:01 [florian]
Joakim: there is no need to extract the metadata of files
22:40:37 [florian]
Veronique: we should ask the mailing list, what tests we should cover on the basis of dougs examples
22:40:52 [silvia]
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22:42:45 [florian]
...we should write this email now
22:43:18 [florian]
The group sets up the email
22:54:34 [florian]
rrsagent, draft minutes
22:54:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian
22:55:54 [florian]
Joakim: shall we set up deadlines now?
22:56:47 [florian]
...and we have to add the security disclaimer
22:57:32 [florian]
action: daniel to make a first draft for a rights disclaimer and add it to the API doc
22:57:32 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - daniel
22:57:38 [florian]
action: Daniel to make a first draft for a rights disclaimer and add it to the API doc
22:57:38 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Daniel
23:00:03 [Daniel]
action: daniel to make a first draft for a rights disclaimer and add it to the API doc
23:00:03 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - daniel
23:00:21 [Daniel]
action: spark3 to make a first draft for a rights disclaimer and add it to the API doc
23:00:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-191 - Make a first draft for a rights disclaimer and add it to the API doc [on Soohong Daniel Park - due 2009-11-13].
23:05:20 [florian]
Joakim send the Email with the call for Tests to the mailing list.
23:05:51 [florian]
rrsagent, draft minutes
23:05:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html florian
23:18:02 [Daniel]
next f2f is in the last week of Feb 2010 in Seoul, will be finally confirmed later
23:18:45 [Daniel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
23:18:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/06-mediaann-minutes.html Daniel
23:31:11 [silvia]
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23:31:59 [Kai]
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23:40:35 [silvia]
is this group still meeting?
23:46:38 [shepazu]
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