16:48:55 RRSAgent has joined #ws-ra 16:48:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-ws-ra-irc 16:48:57 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:48:57 Zakim has joined #ws-ra 16:48:59 Zakim, this will be WSRA 16:48:59 ok, trackbot; I see WS_WSRA(TPAC)11:30AM scheduled to start 19 minutes ago 16:49:00 Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference 16:49:00 Date: 05 November 2009 16:49:18 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 16:57:14 Vikas has joined #ws-ra 16:57:24 WS_WSRA(TPAC)11:30AM has now started 16:57:31 +apis-db-stuff 16:57:33 Katy has joined #ws-ra 16:58:19 + +1.571.262.aaaa 16:58:20 dug has joined #ws-ra 16:59:58 +asoldano 17:00:51 + +0196270aabb 17:05:25 Ram has joined #ws-ra 17:05:49 bob, I can here worse than before.. 17:06:09 still bearable? or difficult to understand 17:06:10 we moved the mic - is it ok or do we need to move it back? 17:06:16 very diffcult to understand 17:06:20 MartinC has joined #ws-ra 17:06:26 asir has joined #ws-ra 17:06:32 better? for bob 17:06:48 i just here laught now ;) 17:07:22 I can hear him ok but there's some crackling 17:07:27 can you hear bob? 17:07:31 yes 17:07:46 Sreed has joined #ws-ra 17:09:11 scribe: Sreed 17:09:22
  • li has joined #ws-ra 17:09:36 Bob: Approval of the agenda 17:09:48 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Nov/0033.html 17:09:56 asir2 has joined #ws-ra 17:09:58 +li 17:10:15 Vikas1 has joined #ws-ra 17:10:50 asir3 has joined #ws-ra 17:11:11 Wu has joined #ws-ra 17:11:19 Asir: New issues they are not on the agenda 17:11:25 gpilz has joined #ws-ra 17:12:02 Bob: Agenda is agreed 17:12:37 Bob: Approval of the minutes from the 27th Oct - accepted 17:13:23 q+ 17:14:26 Bob: Next F2F is scheduled on Jan 26th to 28th hosted by Fujitsu 17:17:20 any chance you can move the mic where it was before? 17:19:48 thanks gpilz 17:20:08 that does sound better 17:20:26 at least I can hear bob better 17:20:37 :o) me too 17:21:07 Bob: Proposed F2F in Mar 24th to 26th OR week of Mar 15th 17:22:29 Proposed F2F Mar 30th to April 1st 17:24:33 Bob: Can we do that in France Sophia 17:27:07 Bob: Mar 30th to Aprl 1st - Oracle is going to check if they can host the meeting 17:27:24 trutt has joined #ws-ra 17:27:35 Ram: Will check if possiblity of MSFT can host in bay area 17:28:32 q+ 17:28:50 asir has joined #ws-ra 17:28:52 ACTION: Gil to check the possiblity of Oracle hosting the F2F in Mar 30th to Apr 1st 17:28:52 Sorry, couldn't find user - Gil 17:28:54 q+ 17:29:00 ack ram 17:29:02 ack dug 17:29:59 ack martin 17:29:59 q+ 17:30:59 q+ 17:32:18 q+ 17:32:27 ack asir 17:32:33 Bob: We will address the issues that already been opened & also to open the future issues as possible 17:33:04 Asir: We don't how to address is the 40+ issues that has been opened now 17:34:01 ack gp 17:34:11 Yves - pls could you allow access to W3 from IP 195.212.29.92 ? thanks 17:35:17 gpliz: we support the same -with Bob no. of WS Fragment issues needs to be raised need time unti mid-night monday 17:36:15 ack dug 17:40:44 Bob: Agreed morotorium mid night monday 17:40:56 Ashok has joined #ws-ra 17:41:21 Bob: Moving to new issues 8124 - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8124 17:43:17 -li 17:44:28 q+ 17:44:34 Bob: New issues has been sorted out - marked "E" will sent email to accept 17:45:39 Bob: Other category is "L" 17:47:06 ack dug 17:47:22 q+ 17:49:19 I have not reviewed the new issues marked as "L". 17:49:34 ack gpi 17:50:24 Bob: Sorting out the issues into "E" & "L" 17:52:42 Bob: We will have moratorium on monday 17:53:20 Ram: New issue on this morning 17:53:23 can we record how we plan to categorize E and L? 17:54:10 Bob mentioned taht we would categorize issues as now, E or L in the WG con call scheduled for Tue Nov 17th 17:54:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Oct/0065.html 17:57:21 Topic: Issue-7912 17:58:42 q+ 17:58:53 ack asir 18:00:04 Asir: General flow is ok - bottom of the proposal 3rd part two sentences discuss about WSDL semantics 18:00:18 q+ 18:01:29 Asir: what is the basis adding new semantics 18:02:17 see above 18:02:22 q+ 18:02:56 ack dug 18:04:25 q- 18:04:36 q+ 18:04:49 ack asir 18:05:08 q+ 18:06:25 ack dug 18:07:02 q+ to answer dug 18:07:08 q+ 18:07:15 -asoldano 18:07:21 q+ 18:08:09 +asoldano 18:09:10 discussion concerning the contents of the following two sentences in the proposal 18:09:21 If a Feature WSDL is abstract, then the 18:09:22 endpoint of the Endpoint WSDL MUST be used for the feature operations. If 18:09:24 a Feature WSDL defines a concrete endpoint, then this endpoint MUST be 18:09:25 used for the feature operations. 18:10:11 q? 18:10:57 Bob: Except of two sentences is there an agreement for others addressed 18:11:35 Asir: 8031 is not connected to this 18:11:36 folks are in agreement with all but the last two sentences of the proposal 18:11:55 ack asir 18:11:55 asir, you wanted to answer dug 18:12:04 Asir: Why can't we add recommendation sufficient information 18:12:29 gpilz: Why recommendation 18:12:29 ack gpi 18:14:00 This is what MEX is for. Welcome to MEX! 18:14:30 ack katy 18:14:54 gpilz: it is important that we have high level points discussed 18:15:57 What does it mean if the WSDL is abstract? 18:17:02 q+ 18:17:56 q+ 18:19:10 proposal for sentence in contention Nr. 2 18:19:24 YES! 18:19:26 Normal WSDL semantics apply 18:19:47 Ram has joined #ws-ra 18:19:56 If a Feature WSDL defines a concrete endpoint, Normal WSDL semantics apply. 18:20:24 - +1.571.262.aaaa 18:20:42 If a Feature WSDL is abstract, then the endpoint of the Endpoint WSDL MUST be used for the feature operations. If a Feature WSDL defines a concrete endpoint, normal WSDL semantics apply. 18:23:39 -asoldano 18:29:13 where or where has my working group gone, oh where or where can they be? 18:30:56 +li 18:34:17 with my patiece cut short nd their hair cut long, oh where are where can they be? 18:34:30 q+ 18:34:42 s/patiece/patience 18:36:46 + +1.571.262.aacc 18:37:43 Bob: Second sentence posted by gpilz is there any objection 18:38:27 agree with Martin the term 'Feature' is not defined 18:40:17 the proposal says "An endpoint MAY choose to expose the WSDL of the policy defined feature by using the http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/wsdl/ dialect and the dialect identifier of the target namespace of the feature." 18:41:57 ok with this? If a Feature WSDL defines a concrete endpoint, normal WSDL semantics apply. 18:42:44 ack asir 18:42:50 ack gp 18:43:01 ack mart 18:44:35 q+ 18:46:07 q+ 18:46:12 now thisIf a Feature WSDL is abstract, then the endpoint of the Endpoint WSDL MUST be used for the feature operations. 18:47:58 q+ 18:48:22 ack asir 18:48:26 q+ 18:48:30 ack dug 18:48:58 q+ 18:49:09 ack kat 18:49:40 Asir: If WSDL abstract it is 18:49:50 you can say .. feature WSDLs are concrete (that is carries binding, service and endpoint info) 18:50:27 ack mar 18:50:33 Bob: Katy will reword 18:51:38 Martin: EPR for the future WSDL should we need to have the combinations - Endpoint WSDL 3 possibilities 18:52:51 trutt has joined #ws-ra 18:54:23 ack gpi 18:55:26 q+ 18:56:05 ack asir 19:05:21 - +1.571.262.aacc 19:05:34 q 19:06:01 The feature WSDL MAY just provide the abstract aspects of the 19:06:01 feature for the endpoint. A Feature WSDL may alternatively define a different concrete endpint. 19:08:47 Bob: we have some concrete words put forward by Katy 19:11:41 Plain simple ... 19:11:43 A feature WSDL MAY just provide portType and binding desciprtions of the feature for the endpoint. 19:12:58 Bob: Any objections to Asir text 19:15:46 q+ 19:16:11 ack katy 19:16:18 A feature WSDL might not provide a concrete endpoint in which case it MUST use the concrete aspects of the endpoint's WSDL 19:18:13 s/it/the consumer/ 19:18:28 + +1.571.262.aadd 19:19:01 Vikas has joined #ws-ra 19:19:12 When a Feature WSDL does not provide a concrete endpoint, the consumer MUST use the concrete aspects of the endpoint's WSDL. 19:20:09 Bob: Do we have any objections? Is the second sentence is necessary 19:22:04 The Feature WSDL, the WSDL associated with these implicit operations, can be annotated to indicate any endpoint specific metadata that might be needed by clients interacting with this service. For example, the WSDL MAY have policy assertions that indicate a particular security mechanism used to protect the feature's operations supported by this endpoint. When a Feature WSDL does not provide... 19:22:06 ...a concrete endpoint, the consumer MUST use the concrete aspects of the endpoint's WSDL. 19:23:50 Bob: Agreed 19:25:29 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Nov/0037.html 19:29:38 RESOLUTION: Issue-7912 resolved with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Nov/0037.html 19:30:05 Topic: Issue-8031 19:30:51 Katy: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8031 19:32:21 q+ 19:32:21 q+ 19:32:41 Asir: there are no root semantics - issue-8031 19:33:05 q+ to answer Doug's q 19:33:38 Dug: Multiple WSDL docs - example Katy has provided - we need some way which WSDL is the application 19:34:05 ack dug 19:34:16 ack asir 19:34:16 asir, you wanted to answer Doug's q 19:34:19 q+ 19:34:21 q+ 19:34:24 ack katy 19:34:39 q+ 19:34:59 q+ to answer Katy's point 19:35:11 q- 19:35:27 ack gp 19:42:12 ack mart 19:43:08 q+ 19:44:56 ack asir 19:44:56 asir, you wanted to answer Katy's point 19:45:00 ack katy 19:45:45 could have multiple roots 19:46:00 there doesn't need to be just one. 19:46:42 we established that root, starting point, first WSDL, real WSDL ... are not part of the use case. 19:46:48 So, I am a bit confused 19:46:54 q+ 19:47:47 +asoldano 19:49:35 I need to go now - enjoy! 19:50:21 - +0196270aabb 19:50:22 bye, see you tomorrow 19:50:57
  • q+ 19:51:24 q- 19:52:27 Here is my understanding of the use case ... 19:52:41 A mechanism to distinguish business services from non-business services 19:53:30 ack li 19:53:55 among metadata units in Web Services metadata (aka /mex:Metadata) 19:55:27 q+ 19:58:32
  • if A imports C and B imports C, but you get [A,B,C] back, what are the roots? 19:59:34 but Feature WSDLs aren't imported 19:59:43 I want a ?wsdl flag ;-) 19:59:46 that's what makes them "Feature WSDLs" 20:01:47 These languages are declarative, imposes no particular processing order 20:02:56 q+ 20:02:58 trutt has joined #ws-ra 20:03:31 ack gp 20:04:25 -asoldano 20:05:05 - +1.571.262.aadd 20:05:54 -li 20:05:55 -apis-db-stuff 20:05:57 WS_WSRA(TPAC)11:30AM has ended 20:05:58 Attendees were apis-db-stuff, +1.571.262.aaaa, asoldano, +0196270aabb, li, +1.571.262.aacc, +1.571.262.aadd 20:49:32 dug has joined #ws-ra 21:06:01 WS_WSRA(TPAC)11:30AM has now started 21:06:08 +li 21:07:57 +apis-db-stuff 21:09:40 Ram has joined #ws-ra 21:09:40 Bob has joined #ws-ra 21:09:53 we resume 21:10:03 Sreed has joined #ws-ra 21:10:19 as part of definition of wsdl dialect in mex spec, we define an optional boolean attribute, called @isImplicit, which if present with value true indicates that this is feature wsdl 21:10:22 scribe Martin Chapman 21:10:29 scribe: Martin Chapman 21:10:38 Ashok has joined #ws-ra 21:10:40 implied value is 'false' 21:10:41 scribenick: MartinC 21:11:26 fmaciel has joined #ws-ra 21:11:33 Wu has joined #ws-ra 21:11:36 asir has joined #ws-ra 21:12:23 Proposal from Tom on 8031 as an agreement on concept as a way forward: as part of definition of wsdl dialect in mex spec, we define an optional boolean attribute, called @isImplicit, which if present with value true indicates that this is feature wsdl 21:13:04 as part of definition of wsdl dialect in mex spec, we define an optional boolean attribute, called @isImplicit, which if present with value true indicates that this is feature wsdl 21:13:37 implied value is 'false' 21:14:11 Asir: can we record the agreed use case 21:14:32 this allows the mex metadata consumer can determine if a wsdl document is intended to be treated as implicit 21:14:39 I.e, that it is feature wsdl 21:15:00 s/can/to/ 21:17:09 asir2 has joined #ws-ra 21:17:40 asir2 has joined #ws-ra 21:17:48 Asir: This is different from Katy's issues desctiption 21:18:36 Dug: ignore any semantics implied by the term root, Tom's proposal satisfies this concerns 21:18:54 Agreement on the use case 21:19:39 proposed way forward: as part of definition of wsdl dialect in mex spec, we define an optional boolean attribute, called @isImplicit, which if present with value true indicates that this is feature wsdl implied value is 'false' 21:21:54 AI: Dug to produce a concrete proposal for 8031, based on Tom's directional proposal 21:22:10 Will return to this issue tomorrow morning. 21:23:39 Topic: issue 8069 21:23:41 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8069 21:23:56 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Nov/0033.html 21:26:16 Revised proposal in bugzilla 21:26:29 proposal at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8069#c2 21:26:29 comment #2 21:27:28 Agreed to resolve 8069 with proposal in comment#2 21:28:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Nov/att-0025/wsenum-8070-8071-8072.doc 21:28:43 Topic: 8070 8071 8072 21:29:23 Dug: goes over the word doc containing proposal to resolve 8070 8071 and 8072 (link above) 21:29:37 Section 3: 21:30:36 dug: confusing combinations of musts and shoulds. 21:30:55 dug: no intention to change behaviour just to clarify 21:32:05 Comment 1: Suggest removing the sentence: "Once an enumeration context is invalid, consumers MUST NOT reuse it." 21:33:21 Ram: hard to test when something becomes invalid 21:34:47 dug: ok with removing if the preceding musts are kept 21:35:24 s/preced/preceed/ 21:36:57 Ram has joined #ws-ra 21:37:22 Comment #2: Replace " For all operations defined by this specification that include an enumeration context in the request message, data sources MUST generate an wsen:InvalidEnumerationContext fault if it is able to determine that the enumeration context used is invalid." with "When processing a Pull, Renew, GetStatus or Release operation, a data source MUST generate an wsen:InvalidEnumerationContext fault if the data source determines that the enumeration cont 21:38:38 Replacement text for comment #2: "When processing a Pull, Renew, GetStatus or Release operation, a data source MUST generate an wsen:InvalidEnumerationContext fault if the data source determines that the enumeration context supplied by the consumer in the request was already invalid and the data source is unwilling to perform the requested operation with the specified enumeration context." 21:38:53 Sreed has joined #ws-ra 21:41:24 "When processing a Pull, Renew, GetStatus or Release operation, a data source MUST generate an wsen:InvalidEnumerationContext fault if it determines that the enumeration context supplied by the consumer in the request is invalid." 21:43:09 Agreed to text above 21:43:41 Comment #3: Rewrite the sentence: "That is, the enumeration has an indefinite lifetime. It will terminate when the end of the enumeration is reached, or if the consumer sends a Release request, or by the data source at any time for reasons such as connection termination, resource constraints, or system shut-down." 21:45:54 trutt_ has joined #ws-ra 21:46:32 "If this element does not appear, then the enumeration will not expire. That is, the enumeration has an indefinite lifetime or until the enumeration context becomes invalid. " 21:49:20 If this element does not appear, then the enumeration will not expire. That is, the enumeration's lifetime extends until the enumeration context become invalid. 21:54:12 Observed that there is a confusion between enumerations and enumeration contexts, so Dug will rethink overnight. 21:56:13 gpilz has left #ws-ra 21:56:43 Joint session with XML Security WG 21:58:33 -apis-db-stuff 22:02:11 -li 22:02:12 WS_WSRA(TPAC)11:30AM has ended 22:02:12 Attendees were li, apis-db-stuff 22:02:47 dug has joined #ws-ra 22:06:24 trutt has joined #ws-ra 22:08:36 asir has joined #ws-ra 22:10:07 MartinC has joined #ws-ra 22:11:24 Zakim has left #ws-ra 22:13:52 asir2 has joined #ws-ra 23:13:47 dug has joined #ws-ra 23:15:03 Bob has joined #ws-ra 23:15:21 topic: xmlsec joint meeting 23:18:04 Wu has joined #ws-ra 23:18:38 MartinC has joined #ws-ra 23:19:13 ping 23:19:24 pong 23:19:53 Topic: 8075 23:20:06 gpilz has joined #ws-ra 23:20:06 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8075 23:20:13 trutt has joined #ws-ra 23:20:47 dug goes over his proposal in bugzilla 23:21:41 Agreed w/o to resolve 8075 with the proposal in bugzilla 23:21:49 Topic: 8076 23:21:53 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8076 23:22:27 Asir goes over his proposal in bugzilla 23:25:31 Martin: is PT0S defined 23:25:45 Asir: yes in schema but means zero not infinite 23:27:45 Dug: some people like the ability to be explicit so removing PT0S will not allow this. 23:28:14 asir has joined #ws-ra 23:28:26 Sreed has joined #ws-ra 23:28:30 Martin: suggests not to do a replace but to add the last sentence 23:28:55 Asir: this new sentence needs to go before the note 23:28:56 asir2 has joined #ws-ra 23:29:25 jeffm has joined #ws-ra 23:32:50 this also needs be applied to subscriptionmanager/maxexpires 23:33:53 jeffm has joined #ws-ra 23:34:27 In four places: /wsenp:Enumeration/wsenp:MaxExpires, /wsenp:Enumeration/wsenp:MaxTime, /wsevp:EventSource/wsevp:MaxExpires, /wsevp/SubcrptiionManager:MaxExpires 23:35:13 add the sentence "The implied default is indefinite (no expiry)." before the text "Note: a value of "PT0S" indicates that this endpoint supports enumerations with an infinite lifetime." 23:35:58 Agreed w/o to resolve 8076 with proposal 23:36:11 s/proposal/proposal above/ 23:37:48 Topic: 6436 23:37:59 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6436 23:42:24 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=779 23:43:12 Ram goes over his proposal for the enumeration state table 23:51:01 q? 23:51:23 rrsagent, pointer 23:51:23 See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-ws-ra-irc#T23-51-23 23:51:38 dug: would like to see an END column(state) as it is different from none 23:53:56 Gil: some failures/faults should go to the end state 23:58:26 Dug: Gils proposal drew this differently and was more intuitive to this representation 00:01:54 Discussion of Gil's representation vs Ram's 00:03:32 Gil's enum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Sep/att-0031/Enumeration-State-Tables-v1.doc 00:05:58 jdurand has joined #ws-ra 00:07:47 q+ 00:08:41 Bob: need an enumeration factory state table 00:09:29 If you have such a table you dont need the start state, but you probably need an end state 00:14:44 Bob: general perference for Gil's representation as they better capture the transitions 00:15:14 Ram: happy to re-do the table in this style. 00:15:45 Bob: sometimes tables like sthis can be optiimised but best to do this after a full table is finished 00:17:25 General agreement that the state table will be but into appendix, editors discretion. also need some intro text and text to describe how to read the tables. 00:17:52 ack ram 00:18:16 Zakim has joined #ws-ra 00:18:31 q? 00:18:37 q+ 00:21:09 Discussion on whether the appendix will be normative or not, and the precedence order of these over spec text/schema 00:21:10 act tru 00:21:16 ack tru 00:21:39 Martin: Lets focus on getting the table's correct, and worry about status and order later 00:23:46 Decision to add a a new table for enumeration factory 00:23:59 ACTION: Gil to produce new enumeration state tables 00:23:59 Sorry, couldn't find user - Gil 00:24:26 into text to the tables to be part of this action. 00:25:36 Bob: proposes that these should be Informative 00:25:53 Dug: what is the point if its not part of the precedence order 00:26:11 Tom: its more about spec hygene, so dont even gave to be in the spec 00:26:19 s/gave/have/ 00:26:46 q+ 00:28:43 Agreed that they should be non-normative, provided we pay attention and ensure the spec text covers all the cases described in the tables. 00:29:21 q- 00:29:23 q- 00:32:20 8070: latest proposal: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=780&action=edit 00:32:33 Topic: back to 8070 00:32:58 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=7808 00:33:29 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=780 00:34:38 in enumerateresponse/grantedexpires, 3rd paragraph 00:36:49 Agreed 3rd paragraph is accurate and should stay 00:37:23 in section , Enumeration messages 00:38:18 New set of bullets about enumeration context, agreed these are ok 00:38:23 jdurand_ has joined #ws-ra 00:39:03 Pullresponse/Endofsequence, new text 00:39:21 Agreed the next text is ok 00:39:28 Wu has joined #ws-ra 00:39:57 Section 4.8 timedoutfault new text, agreed text is ok 00:40:41 enumerateResponse/enumerationcontext added two words 00:41:45 gil, in same paragraph remove the word context from 2nd sentence 00:42:24 Wu has joined #ws-ra 00:42:39 Agreed to new words and removal of "context" from second para 00:42:51 3.4 GetStatus 00:43:10 4 words deleted - agreed these are ok 00:44:13 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=781 00:45:41 Agreed w/o to resolve 8070 8071 and 8072 with the proposal at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=781 00:46:08 meeting recessed 00:47:03 rrsagent, generate minutes 00:47:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-ws-ra-minutes.html Bob 00:47:43 MartinC has left #ws-ra 00:48:40 fmaciel has left #ws-ra 00:53:47 gpilz has left #ws-ra 02:01:25 asir has joined #ws-ra 03:21:29 Zakim has left #ws-ra 05:42:48 asir has joined #ws-ra