IRC log of html-wg2 on 2009-11-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:19:36 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
19:19:40 [Zakim]
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19:19:56 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:23:24 [prolix]
like label on command
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19:42:41 [prolix]
contentinfo is broader than <addres>
19:43:12 [prolix]
there isn't a 1-to-1 mapping between <address> in HTML5 and contentinfo in ARIA
19:44:18 [MikeSmith]
prolix: should comment on #aapi instead
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21:42:01 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has changed the topic to: canvas accessibility discussion is on #aapi
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22:04:22 [wendy]
wendy has changed the topic to: Canvas accessibility
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22:05:36 [wendy]
fo: 3 types of canvas accessibility: decorative, informative, interactive
22:05:43 [wendy]
(frank olivier)
22:06:38 [wendy]
prolix--yes, i can do that
22:07:21 [wendy]
i'm wendychisholm at skype.
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22:10:00 [wendy]
...if we created dom underneath, overload "fallback text."
22:10:18 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, do not start a new log
22:10:25 [wendy]
...that works for decorative and informative (in case of table with data), but there are cases where you want fallback text, but also want better text.
22:10:46 [wendy]
...want to see the table as well as the canvas. a way to know there is accessibility info within canvas.
22:11:04 [wendy]
?? is it nested like object?
22:11:12 [wendy]
cs if you can render the content, it won't render the fallback.
22:11:31 [wendy]
... if you need the accessibility information but your browser supports the primary content, you can't get to it.
22:11:36 [wendy]
... part of the solution is better browsers.
22:11:51 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
22:11:54 [wendy]
fo: could show both. or let the user choose.
22:12:03 [prolix]
that's what the noframes content in the web IRC interface says - "you need a browser that supports frames and javascipt. full stop'
22:12:24 [scribe]
fo: dom underneath allows you to park it under the element and not create another dom.
22:12:50 [scribe]
cs said something bout aria...
22:12:58 [scribe]
... labelledby
22:13:40 [scribe]
cs: informative canvas--have something like aria-describedby that has some sort of text that is a sufficient equivlalent.
22:14:14 [prolix]
fallback could be an ARIA-enabled widget or tree graph
22:14:27 [scribe]
fo: 2 layers of informative canvas. 1 is a simple text equivalent/fallback works. 2 more complex (a graph of data) with data table as fallback.
22:14:30 [prolix]
the "family tree" example
22:14:43 [scribe]
fo: informative contains data that is read-only. interactive can contain data the user can modify.
22:15:14 [weinig]
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22:16:04 [scribe]
?? aria could be processes separately.
22:16:23 [scribe]
fo: there are accessibility tools that will read that information.
22:16:38 [scribe]
sf: are there any at that access it?
22:16:47 [scribe]
fo: fangs reads everything from the canvas.
22:16:59 [scribe]
... I think nvda does it. (unsure)
22:17:12 [scribe]
... not a big problem to update at software to look underneath the canvas.
22:17:20 [scribe]
... how do you know it's fallback and not alternative representation.
22:17:33 [scribe]
sf: question about the spec (missed)
22:18:12 [scribe]
fo: couple weeks ago a comment that elements under canvas should be tabbable. talks about color picker.
22:18:19 [scribe]
... could tab into form elements behind to change color values.
22:18:27 [scribe]
sf: what about non-at user who wants to use the keyboard?
22:18:49 [scribe]
fo: if someone wants to recreate the ui controls using canvas (more stylish looking controls), i cant use os theming on them.
22:19:01 [scribe]
... would have to handle focus highlights.
22:19:08 [scribe]
cs: could a browser fix that?
22:19:18 [scribe]
... flash accesses that.
22:19:44 [scribe]
fo: if you have a high contrast mode on your computer, there are ways to do it (to go into that mode).
22:19:49 [prolix]
22:19:51 [scribe]
cs: ie messes with css.
22:19:58 [scribe]
fo: overwrite the stylesheet.
22:20:06 [scribe]
cs: high contrast mode turns off a lot of css.
22:20:28 [scribe]
fo: could give canvas access to that. a color mode in canvas--a background ui control color you can specifiy.
22:20:34 [scribe]
cs: available to you as a windows app.
22:20:40 [scribe]
fo: solved in the css color module.
22:20:46 [scribe]
(should be solved....)
22:20:53 [adrianba]
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22:20:59 [JF]
anything on that page in particular greg that you want me to highlight?
22:21:05 [prolix]
high contrast equals what - the opposite of the rgb values used or user client-side preferences?
22:21:07 [scribe]
cs: access to the operating system focus.
22:21:28 [scribe]
... in windows when you tab into a text box it's the same focus that you get when tab into a windows dialog.
22:21:56 [scribe]
?? description of how apple does this?
22:22:12 [scribe]
cs: it's not based on the operating system.
22:22:27 [scribe]
... there are ATs that will change how things look. done at the OS level. would be nice to support.
22:22:34 [scribe]
sf: to be considred ccessible, need to provide that.
22:22:40 [scribe]
?? want access to the themeing api.
22:22:49 [scribe]
.. describes the set of intrinsics.
22:23:13 [scribe]
... everyone has them. lowering those to the browser is a huge undertaking.
22:23:20 [scribe]
cs: as an author, not asking to have access to that.
22:23:33 [scribe]
.. if i put focus on an element in canvas, i want the same behavior that happens in html.
22:23:39 [prolix]
some users will want the canvas, but need to be guided through it (users of supplemental speech, for example, for those with cognative processing issues)
22:23:43 [scribe]
... so if user sets, then the system variable are honored.
22:24:10 [prolix]
or those with a limited point-of-regard
22:24:21 [wendy]
scribe: wendy, scribe
22:24:29 [wendy]
sf: proiding programaitc focus
22:24:33 [wendy]
22:24:39 [wendy]
sf: providing programmatic focus
22:24:56 [wendy]
cs: works on most elements, but not on canvas.
22:25:09 [wendy]
?? canvas is just a bitmap. not providing a form element but something that looks like a form element.
22:25:19 [wendy]
cs: they have made it accessible by using msaa.
22:25:25 [wendy]
?? msaa or theming apis?
22:25:28 [wendy]
cs: not sure
22:25:34 [wendy]
sf: programmatically focusable areas.
22:25:52 [wendy]
fo: you could have a canvas context method, draw focus rectangle tha tuses the os theming to draw a rectangle on the canvas.
22:26:02 [prolix]
CSS user preferences need to be supported
22:26:10 [wendy]
... canvas with 10 ui elements and you want to tab between then, author would have to make the keyboard tabbing.
22:26:22 [wendy]
cs: that combined with aria markup should be most of what is necessary.
22:26:42 [wendy]
fo: creating hidden ui controls underneath, need a system focus rectangle and using aria to expose properties and behaviors to ATs.
22:26:53 [wendy]
... only using canvas to style from scratch your ui controls.
22:27:06 [wendy]
... not limited to only one ui control per canvas, but can have several.
22:27:26 [wendy]
?? seems like it's a hole tha tyou keep digging--how many apis do you add to the context?
22:27:45 [wendy]
... if just drawing focus rings, but if there are other aspects of ui decisions that theme will change, then you will need to expose a huge set of things.
22:27:51 [wendy]
... in some sense, css is trying to solve.
22:28:07 [wendy]
fo: i don't think we can get to the point, where you use the system ui colors.
22:28:28 [wendy]
?? css color module defines a few hard coded names that map to windows concept, that will change as you change the themes.
22:28:32 [wendy]
... may be deprecated.
22:28:38 [wendy]
cs: that was the design goal of those.
22:28:53 [wendy]
22:28:56 [wendy]
(sw from apple)
22:29:03 [wendy]
fo: creating a mini dom makes sense.
22:29:17 [wendy]
...the only new method is a way to draw focus rectangle.
22:29:33 [wendy]
sf: it's a common use case to draw a focus ring, but also want to define an interactive area.
22:29:41 [wendy]
... if it comes with focus--that's default.
22:29:46 [wendy]
... then they dont have to worry about addng that.
22:29:54 [wendy]
cs: that ui works like the other uis the user is used to.
22:30:04 [wendy]
fo: also discussion of something like a click map.
22:30:15 [wendy]
... if i have 10 user controls, i can set up 10 clickable areas and can get an event and handle it.
22:30:22 [wendy]
cs: support ismap? use the same image map?
22:30:27 [wendy]
fo: think that goes a little too far.
22:30:36 [wendy]
... think the author can handle the events.
22:30:44 [wendy]
cs: can an image source point to a canvas?
22:30:48 [wendy]
... create an overlay?
22:30:54 [wendy]
fo: yes, could create an overlay.
22:31:14 [wendy]
cs: interactive canvas--ui contorl is the tricky one.
22:31:52 [wendy]
cs: difficult to come up with a paradigm that makes sense--that works as canvas does now but works with how html was/is going.
22:32:01 [wendy]
... does dom under canvas seem natural?
22:32:09 [wendy]
fo: shows demo
22:32:50 [prolix]
"The CSS2 System Color values have been deprecated in favor of the CSS3 UI 'appearance' property for specifying the complete look of user interface related elements" (
22:32:52 [wendy]
... three day weather forecast.
22:33:25 [wendy]
... "click here to switch to degrees F" 3 suns each with temp in the middle (in Celsius).
22:33:50 [wendy]
... if you just draw pixels into the canvas, you won't get any information for the canvas.
22:33:58 [prolix]
so it needs live regions and accessible controls...
22:34:00 [wendy]
... what i've done is create a tiny dom underneath.
22:34:41 [wendy]
... fangs is a screen reader simulator
22:35:27 [wendy]
... looking at that to see what it's giving for this page.
22:36:13 [wendy]
... s/this page/this canvas
22:36:26 [wendy]
cs: what's the diff between what you've done there and having fallback html w/in canvas tag?
22:36:35 [wendy]
fo: could add a text box and interactive elements.
22:36:53 [wendy]
... more example of an informative than interactive.
22:37:02 [wendy]
... james craig did a demo with checkbox within canvas.
22:37:17 [wendy]
sw: makes text accessible to AT but invisible to the screen?
22:37:32 [wendy]
fo: take the fallback context, erase it, add in a new dom under the canvas, that has interactive elements.
22:37:40 [wendy]
cs: kept the interaction in sync?
22:37:48 [wendy]
fo: yes, james draws a focus rectangle himself.
22:37:58 [wendy]
cs: he was toggling the visible check and the hidden.
22:38:05 [wendy]
sw: what changes needed in html5 to support this?
22:38:23 [wendy]
fo: mini-dom: nothing really. it's the canvas subtree.
22:38:40 [wendy]
cs: canvas subtree and interaction between canvas and other elements managed?
22:38:49 [wendy]
jf: james demo uses javascript.
22:38:56 [wendy]
sw: any sync would need to be done by the script.
22:39:03 [wendy]
fo: he was supporting events, drawing focus.
22:39:17 [wendy]
cs: this approach does meet the minimum bar of accessibility--it's possible to make an accessible product.
22:39:26 [wendy]
... however, is not easy, intuitive, such that developers would do it.
22:39:38 [wendy]
sw: argue that javascript to write checkbox and handle events not intuitive either.
22:39:53 [wendy]
?? someone is obviously writing it for the rest of the UI.
22:40:01 [wendy]
sf: doubling the work?
22:40:18 [wendy]
cs: seems like keeping it synchronized would be hard.
22:41:49 [prolix]
could CANVAS support an "order" attribute? order="targetID,targetID2,targetID3" or order="targetRole, targetRole1, targetRole2"
22:43:03 [prolix]
that's the SVG adition to the XHTML Access Module (
22:43:15 [wendy]
discussion about how much work are developers going to do to add accessibility to custom controls.
22:43:33 [wendy]
fo: argues that if it's 8 days work to create their own custom contorls, 2 days work is no big deal.
22:43:48 [wendy]
accessibility folks say, "we've heard that before and unfortunately, that will take a lot of education to get people to do that."
22:44:07 [wendy]
fo: counters, most people will not create uis from canvas from scratch, they will use libraries and the libraries will be accessible.
22:44:12 [wendy]
wc: they better be!
22:44:24 [wendy]
fo: no matter what we do, people will have to do additional work to make canvas accessible.
22:44:33 [wendy]
... currently, it's an additional few lines of code.
22:44:43 [wendy]
... perhaps give them an api that will make it 1 line of code instead of 4.
22:45:02 [prolix]
testify, sister, testify!!!
22:45:49 [wendy]
discussion about alt and that isn't even used.
22:46:13 [wendy]
fo: but you are asking for a technological solution. i'm giving you that.
22:46:23 [wendy]
... otherwise, you are asking for the impossible.
22:46:44 [wendy]
cs: designing the api is part of the api and not some tacked-on thing.
22:46:51 [wendy]
... not an unpleasant task for devs.
22:46:57 [wendy]
mm: wish list
22:47:24 [prolix]
keyboard support, device independent event triggering, for a start
22:47:27 [wendy]
mm: wish-list++ add accessibility info out-of-band--you have a toolkit that doesn't suport accessibility. be able to add info, map to html controls, etc.
22:47:38 [wendy]
sw: we have a good solution.
22:47:56 [wendy]
... if you inherit an app, you already know which elements you will need to shadow.
22:48:06 [wendy]
... if it's well-factored, it can create the button in the subtree.
22:48:06 [prolix]
can you use XBL on CANVAS?
22:48:17 [wendy]
... if you have a routein to focus a button ont he canvas, has it on the subtree.
22:48:35 [wendy]
cs: not saying not workable, thinking about how to make it more adoptable.
22:48:43 [wendy]
sw: well-factored, yes.
22:48:52 [wendy]
... it's a drawing api. could make it oo but it's drawing.
22:49:06 [wendy]
fo: there is not perfect solution. lots of solutions that all have sub-optimal outcomes.
22:49:16 [wendy]
... what we have currently is a good road. will people drive on that road? don't know.
22:49:19 [prolix]
converge on and learn from lessons of SVG
22:49:31 [wendy]
... made it as easy as possible. but shouldnt put too much of a burden on ppl.
22:49:40 [wendy]
... compared to what ppl doing today, should be ok.
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22:50:00 [wendy]
cs: it would be nice in the future, perhaps in html5 timeframe, to have access to accessibilty apis from javascript.
22:50:15 [wendy]
... for something like canvas, be able to say "this box is a button."
22:50:33 [wendy]
.. understand harder. if we go with a dom approach, that the other possibility is not locked out for a future version.
22:50:51 [wendy]
fo: interesting way to do that is to tag the canvas element with a property that says, "accessibility provided by method x."
22:51:31 [wendy]
... think there are lots of ways you can go.
22:51:37 [adrianba]
+1 on the point about having accessibility apis from javascript
22:52:10 [wendy]
fo: shows the dom of the demo
22:54:37 [prolix]
adrianba, this is one reason why i'm going to suggest canvas implementation via script libraries if the Rich Web Application Incubator Group's final report's recommendation that a working group be established to continue to investigate the area is formed (
22:55:43 [prolix]
could use the SVG order attribute model referenced above
22:59:26 [prolix]
23:00:05 [wendy]
discussion about how to synchronize the shadow canvas with the html elements so that someone who is sighted and using the keyboard can operate the controls in the canvas.
23:00:21 [wendy]
cs: describes counter proposal.
23:00:43 [wendy]
talking about marking coordinates with roles.
23:01:10 [wendy]
?? need to be able to do all of the things we do with the dom.
23:01:36 [wendy]
cs: counter proposal is to 1. direct api access 2. is there a way to make it so that it's possible to use the html elements but have them look as spiffy as theyw ant.
23:01:46 [wendy]
sw: in webkit you can take a button and make it look however you want.
23:01:52 [wendy]
... there are extensions to css.
23:02:05 [wendy]
.. or you can make a div, draw anything you want into it and add an aria attribute.
23:02:14 [wendy]
... canvas is for ppl who say, we want to draw other things differently.
23:02:26 [wendy]
cs: my concern ppl taking that jump too easily.
23:02:50 [wendy]
?? is it likely that we're going to add features to html that will satisfy those same people?
23:04:04 [wendy]
?? css will never help someone wh ocan do a better tetx editor.
23:04:14 [wendy]
cs: riht.
23:04:18 [wendy]
23:04:42 [prolix]
23:04:47 [wendy]
?? we need a solution lets someone who wants to do that much work nd also wants to make their work accessible, we should let them do that.
23:04:55 [wendy]
cs: yes, make it possible and as pleasant as possible.
23:04:58 [wendy]
?? as implementable
23:05:12 [wendy]
cs: making it so that there are fewer cases where ppl need to do that to get their artistic expression.
23:06:46 [wendy]
mm: the technology will be used in ways no one in this room has thought of.
23:07:06 [prolix]
something EXTENSIBLE
23:07:06 [wendy]
... my big concern is that the solution we have will account for as many of those eventualities as possible.
23:07:29 [wendy]
fo: anything you can do with dom, you can do within canvas.
23:08:24 [wendy]
sc: let's mke sure that we've covered everything.
23:08:28 [wendy]
cs: hgh contrast, yes.
23:08:37 [wendy]
sc: options w/in browser--zoom, etc.
23:08:46 [wendy]
cs: pixel zooming should work.
23:08:48 [wendy]
font size an issue?
23:08:51 [prolix]
"The CSS2 System Color values have been deprecated in favor of the CSS3 UI 'appearance' property for specifying the complete look of user interface related elements" (
23:09:02 [wendy]
sc: so we've covered keyboard access, screen readers, etc.
23:10:58 [wendy]
cs: does canvas spec need to talk about browser and os settings.
23:11:15 [wendy]
fo: could be at least one paragraph in the spec.
23:12:21 [wendy]
q+ is the canvas subtree is similar to an iframe subtree? is it a separate document or part of the top level document?
23:12:31 [wendy]
q+ to ask is the canvas subtree is similar to an iframe subtree? is it a separate document or part of the top level document?
23:13:00 [wendy]
js: we suggest to ua wg that these are on the horizon.
23:13:17 [wendy]
fo: we've covered the major use cases of canvas.
23:13:24 [wendy]
... everyone seems to be ok to use a dom.
23:14:48 [wendy]
clarification that the shadow dom is not like iframe, but is child of canvas element.
23:15:02 [wendy]
fo: need good documentation both for devs and at dev.
23:15:12 [wendy]
... think only have one new method: draw focus system rectangle.
23:15:35 [wendy]
sw: the alternate is you could put in an invisible element and focus on it.
23:15:53 [wendy]
fo: don't think we need to redesign the api.
23:16:00 [wendy]
... and a way to clear it.
23:16:13 [wendy]
cs: if using a screen mag, need to follow focus.
23:16:28 [wendy]
fo: os should handle the case. in windows, the bitmap will have direct coordinates.
23:16:43 [wendy]
will a rectangle be sufficient or also need other shapes?
23:17:36 [wendy]
discussion of focus rings/rectangles.
23:18:48 [wendy]
have a layer above the canvas.
23:19:00 [wendy]
fo: people are handling clicks on canvas and taking an action.
23:19:25 [wendy]
cs: if the focus moves, the viewport needs to move with focus.
23:19:27 [wendy]
fo: we can do that.
23:19:41 [wendy]
sf: the magnifier has to understand that is a focusable rectangle.
23:20:18 [prolix]
good idea, cyns
23:20:34 [wendy]
sw: since the focus is programmatic.
23:21:30 [wendy]
action: cs and fo talk about how porgrammatic focus works under the covers in microsoft.
23:21:46 [wendy]
action: sw talk about how programmatic focus works under the covers in apple.
23:22:03 [prolix]
rrsagent, please make minutes
23:22:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate prolix
23:23:27 [wendy]
sf: how to get access to text...cursor (missed it)
23:24:08 [wendy]
cs: needs to be a way for input focus to be synched (like keyboard focus)
23:24:38 [wendy]
23:26:16 [prolix]
thank you all
23:26:17 [wendy]
all done!
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23:42:21 [prolix]
as for theCSS control of UI colors and such, check
23:44:56 [prolix]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:44:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate prolix
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00:12:13 [tantek]
FYI - anyone in room 1243 - the HTML media types session has been canceled due to being covered during the TAG joint meeting