IRC log of html-wg on 2009-11-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

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00:15:22 [MikeSmith]
.t gsnedders
00:15:22 [phenny]
Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:15:22 GMT
00:15:59 [gsnedders]
MikeSmith: That's no Europe/Stockholm
00:16:03 [gsnedders]
00:17:08 [MikeSmith]
gsnedders: ah, yeah, I forgot you had relocated
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.t gsnedders
00:19:13 [phenny]
Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:19:13 CET
00:19:20 [gsnedders]
There we go.
00:19:30 [gsnedders]
I really ought to try harder at this whole sleep thing ;P
00:20:21 [MikeSmith]
gsnedders: sleep is for the weak
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.t Linköping
00:29:17 [phenny]
MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
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00:30:28 [MikeSmith]
.t Linköping
00:30:28 [phenny]
MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
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00:31:29 [MikeSmith]
.t Linköping
00:31:29 [phenny]
MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
00:31:32 [MikeSmith]
00:40:13 [Philip]
.t Linköping
00:40:13 [phenny]
Philip: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
00:41:01 [MikeSmith]
00:41:36 [MikeSmith]
this is an a config file with magic encoding comment to give the encoding as UTF=8
00:41:52 [MikeSmith]
00:42:20 [MikeSmith]
do I still have to do the u'' thing?
00:45:39 [Philip]
00:45:49 [Philip]
(assuming Python 2.x)
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00:51:14 [MikeSmith]
.t Linköping
00:51:14 [phenny]
MikeSmith: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Linköping' timezone.
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.t Linköping
00:51:53 [phenny]
Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:51:53 EET
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02:00:52 [MikeSmith]
02:00:55 [pimpbot]
Title: Bug 21288 Implement HTML5's sandbox attribute for iframes (at
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planet: HTML 5 Doctype? <11>
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07:19:48 [Olivers]
Hi all.
07:35:42 [annevk]
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07:40:08 [pimpbot]
planet: ugly hack for some weird html5lib thing I can't fix right now <11>
09:32:16 [Olivers]
Any one here ?
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planet: HTML 5 Doctype? [closed] <11>
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11:18:03 [thugbot]
04[localhost] MikeSmith: I can't reach bugzilla
11:22:40 [hsivonen]
it seems to me that Content MathML wants to be Lisp
11:23:57 [jgraham]
All W3C technologies keep adding features until they are lisp with angle brackets?
11:25:25 [jgraham]
Doesn't really have the same ring to it
11:27:16 [hsivonen]
that is, I don't remember if symbols are app-global or not
11:27:28 [hsivonen]
does Lisp have Namespaces?
11:28:37 [hsivonen]
the word "namespace" doesn't appear in the index of SICP
13:17:33 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8197] New: This design might work for JavaScript, but it won't work well in static-typed languages like Java or C#. Instead of overridding "namedItem", a better design would be to add a new method called "allNamedItems" which always returns an HTMLCollection. "nam <11>
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16:28:35 [annevk]
anything happening so far? I overslept as well...
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16:44:34 [paulc]
Currently 8:43 PT and 20 WG present
16:44:42 [paulc]
Awaiting co-chairs and will start soon
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16:47:21 [paulc]
Meeting outline is at
16:47:22 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG meeting at TPAC - unconference style from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-10-28 ( from October 2009) (at
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17:02:31 [Julian]
Manu, no we don't
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17:02:37 [manu]
Thanks, Julian. :)
17:02:43 [Julian]
Manu, but we'll log things to the IRC channel
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17:03:05 [manu]
oh, so the TPAC meeting is being logged to IRC?
17:03:31 [Julian]
We are encouraged to self-scribe what we're saying
17:03:42 [Julian]
We can also relay back your feedback into the room
17:03:53 [manu]
groovy... thanks to the TPAC scribes/relays :)
17:04:07 [shepazu]
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17:04:33 [Julian]
...Paul Cotton is explaining the logistics...
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17:05:30 [Julian]
...joint meeting with TAG at 2pm...
17:05:55 [Julian]
...2 more joint sessions tomorrow...
17:06:13 [Julian]
...W3D consortium 9am...
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17:06:30 [Julian]
....joint meeting with TC39 later on...
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...X3D at 10 pm...
17:07:10 [Julian]
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17:08:19 [Julian]
...we'll start 9am tomorrow...
17:09:46 [Julian]
17:10:44 [MikeSmith]
Joe Williams
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17:13:49 [Julian]
...collection suggestions for breakout sessions...
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17:14:17 [Julian]
Cynthia: HTML semantics vs Aria
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17:15:39 [Julian]
Frank: Accessibility and Canvas
17:16:00 [Julian]
Sylvia: video accessibility
17:16:54 [annevk]
RRSAgent is here
17:17:21 [Julian]
Mike: testing
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17:17:57 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:17:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
17:18:14 [Julian]
Tony: decentralized extensibility
17:18:34 [Julian]
Nikunj: client-controlled caching
17:19:03 [MikeSmith]
@bug 8152
17:19:04 [pimpbot]
MikeSmith: 11, P3, NEW, 13Consider removing the <progress> and <meter> fallback magic
17:19:07 [Julian]
Ian: progress and meter
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17:19:56 [Julian]
Joe: <object>
17:20:54 [Julian]
Brian: client-side push
17:21:38 [Julian]
...: lcoal storage concurrency problems, possible solutions
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17:22:20 [MikeSmith]
Julian: profile attribute
17:22:22 [timely]
17:22:27 [Julian]
Julian: profile attribute
17:23:10 [Julian]
Julian: RDFa vs microdata (what should be in the base spec)
17:23:37 [Julian]
Paul points out this may overlap with TAG session
17:23:46 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:23:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
17:23:47 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
17:24:20 [Julian]
Joe: author/UA duties for the two mime types
17:24:36 [Julian]
Steve F.: canvas in or out?
17:25:08 [Julian]
Tantek: predefined vocabularies and coordination with other standards groups
17:25:41 [Julian]
Mike: authoring material
17:26:09 [MikeSmith]
or materials aimed at authors
17:27:28 [Julian]
Patrick: HTML and MathML together
17:28:11 [Julian]
Paul: mentions WG thread on MathML feedback
17:29:13 [MikeSmith]
close action-157
17:29:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-157 Request two smaller rooms (big enough for 10-12 people) for breakout sessions closed
17:29:24 [MikeSmith]
17:29:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-127 -- Paul Cotton to establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts -- due 2009-10-01 -- OPEN
17:29:24 [trackbot]
17:29:25 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-127 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
17:30:51 [Julian]
Paul: mentions cross-wg review of other specs
17:31:16 [Julian]
Ian: MathML XML entities
17:31:52 [Julian]
...character entities...
17:32:08 [fantasai]
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17:32:21 [fantasai]
Is anyone taking minutes?
17:32:44 [fantasai]
17:32:48 [fantasai]
Proposed topics
17:32:55 [fantasai]
1. Cynthia - HTML vs Aria semantics
17:32:59 [fantasai]
2. Accessibility in Canvas
17:33:08 [fantasai]
3. Accessibility in video (A11y? video?)
17:33:12 [fantasai]
4. Kris - Testing
17:33:17 [fantasai]
5. Tony - DCE
17:33:22 [fantasai]
6. Nicunj - Caching
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17:33:32 [MikeSmith]
17:33:35 [MikeSmith]
17:33:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-130 -- David Singer to review status of video codec positions -- due 2009-11-05 -- OPEN
17:33:35 [trackbot]
17:33:36 [fantasai]
7. Ian - 8152-progress in metering (?)
17:33:36 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-130 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
17:33:38 [timely]
17:33:44 [MichaelC]
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17:33:49 [fantasai]
8. Joe - Object tag
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9. Connectionless push
17:34:06 [fantasai]
10. Local storage recurrency problems, possible solutions
17:34:09 [MikeSmith]
scribe: fantasai
17:34:15 [fantasai]
11. Profile attribute (part of DCE?)
17:34:24 [fantasai]
12. Next steps on RDFa + microdata
17:34:30 [fantasai]
13. Authors vs browser responsibilities
17:34:52 [fantasai]
14. Status on canvas - inout?
17:35:00 [fantasai]
15. Pre-defined microdata vocab (tantek)
17:35:09 [fantasai]
16. Authoring materials (mat. aimed @ authors)
17:35:15 [fantasai]
17. HTML + MathML together
17:35:22 [fantasai]
18. MathML update - XML character entities
17:35:31 [fantasai]
19. Video codecs (ACTION-130)
17:35:37 [fantasai]
20. HTML Media type (Issue-53)
17:35:50 [MikeSmith]
i/Proposed topics/scribe: fantasai
17:35:54 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:35:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
17:35:54 [ArtB]
17:35:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-130 -- David Singer to review status of video codec positions -- due 2009-11-05 -- OPEN
17:35:55 [trackbot]
17:35:56 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
17:35:57 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-130 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
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17:36:46 [fantasai]
The chair notes that the HTMLWG should review Last Call for ??, and that several members have volunteered to review the draft
17:37:05 [fantasai]
Suggests that we collect comments and send them, not worry about trying to get consensus on a WG position
17:37:16 [annevk]
ISSUE-53 is deferred to after CR
17:37:21 [annevk]
"PR blocker"
17:37:31 [fantasai]
Suggests that the HTMLWG should remember to review drafts of related WGs, not be too introspective into the work of this WG only
17:37:55 [fantasai]
There are 15 open slots
17:37:57 [annevk]
maciej enters
17:38:08 [Julian]
Anne, but there's a controversy about what to do, and we should talk about that.
17:38:41 [Julian]
17:38:42 [fantasai]
Chair asking whether it's worth breaking out
17:38:58 [MikeSmith]
17:38:59 [fantasai]
Paul: Shoudl testing be a break-out session?
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17:39:16 [gsnedders|work]
17:39:19 [MikeSmith]
s/The chair notes/Paul notes
17:39:37 [fantasai]
some comment about parallelization, free slots might be only 6
17:39:54 [fantasai]
Maciej takes over
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17:40:31 [fantasai]
Maciej: We had space for a total of 15 break-out sessions, there are 20 suggested topics
17:40:52 [fantasai]
Maciej: Does anyone think any of these could fit into a half-size time slot (45min)?
17:41:03 [fantasai]
Ian suggests 7 and 18
17:41:18 [fantasai]
Anne suggests 17
17:41:31 [fantasai]
?: 10 is half-size
17:41:36 [fantasai]
??: 9 as well
17:41:43 [fantasai]
Maciej is skeptical
17:41:58 [fantasai]
Tantek: 15
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17:42:12 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:42:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
17:42:13 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
17:42:39 [pimpbot]
planet: Will Visual Studio 2010 support HTML 5? <11>
17:42:40 [MikeSmith]
meeting: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara
17:42:41 [fantasai]
Maciej: So we've got 5 half-slot sessions, that takes away 2 slots
17:42:54 [fantasai]
Maciej: that's still 18 / 15
17:43:09 [prolix]
q+ is there a phone bridge?
17:43:17 [fantasai]
???: If we can discuss the object topic 8 in context of decentralized extensibility..
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17:43:22 [prolix]
q+ to ask if there is a pone bridge
17:43:29 [fantasai]
????, Tantek: 11
17:43:41 [fantasai]
Maciej: So 11, 5, 8 all one sesssion
17:43:47 [tantek]
fantasai - that was julian
17:43:52 [Eliot_Graff]
i do not think there's a phone bridge
17:43:53 [tantek]
that mentioned the profile attribute
17:43:59 [fantasai]
17:45:16 [fantasai]
Maciej: We may have some extra time since it seems we might finish early with this session
17:45:26 [fantasai]
Maciej: Today we have 7 slots plus 1 slot that is a joint session with the TAG
17:46:15 [fantasai]
Maciej draws out the schedule slots
17:46:27 [fantasai]
There are 8 slots in two columns on the board right now
17:46:38 [prolix]
wil there be a phone bridge or no?
17:46:59 [fantasai]
Maciej draws another slot table for Friday
17:47:07 [gsnedders|work]
prolix: Not
17:48:13 [prolix]
thanks, gseddrs
17:48:44 [fantasai]
Maciej suggests putting the combination sessions into the longer slots
17:50:42 [fantasai]
Slots for today are 11-12:30, 14-15:30, 16-17, 17-18
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17:51:17 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:51:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
17:51:19 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
17:51:41 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
17:51:45 [fantasai]
Friday slots are 9-10, 10-12, 13:30-15, 15:30-16:30, 16:30-17
17:52:04 [fantasai]
TAG is today at 14:00
17:52:18 [fantasai]
TC-39 tomorrow at 10
17:53:14 [fantasai]
current proposals: 15+17 tomorrow at 10, 9+10 tomorrow at 13:30, 5+8+11 tomorrow at 13:30
17:53:43 [fantasai]
1 today at 11
17:53:56 [fantasai]
2 at 16:00
17:54:09 [fantasai]
Topic 3 has been renamed to Video
17:54:25 [fantasai]
Sylvia suggests merging with codecs and putting in a longer slot
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17:55:00 [fantasai]
Tantek: The 5811 session will be one of the hardest sessions that we have. I suggest doing it sooner rather than later while everyone is fresher
17:55:09 [fantasai]
Tantek: Also many other things might depend on the outcome of that
17:55:22 [fantasai]
MikeSmith: We might also want to discuss that before the TAG joint session
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17:55:35 [fantasai]
Tantek: It'd be helpful to have consensus on some things before talking with TAG
17:55:50 [fantasai]
5+8+11 moved to 11am today
17:56:03 [MichaelC_]
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17:56:03 [fantasai]
4 slotted for 16:00 today
17:56:24 [fantasai]
4 is moving
17:56:26 [fantasai]
to ...
17:56:57 [Eliot_Graff]
9 am tomorrow
17:57:09 [fantasai]
15:30 tomorrow
17:57:12 [Eliot_Graff]
and then moved to 15:30 tomorrow
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17:57:43 [fantasai]
6 slotted for 16:00 today
17:58:01 [annevk]
17:58:02 [pimpbot]
Title: Welcome to Google Docs (at
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17:58:30 [fantasai]
7+17 assigned 13:30 tomorrow
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17:59:23 [fantasai]
12 for 17:00 today
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18:00:13 [fantasai]
Joe: Seems like there's a tipping point between text/html and application/xhtml+xml. The author and browser have different responsibilities
18:00:48 [fantasai]
7+15 at 13:30 tomorrow
18:00:54 [fantasai]
opposit 9+10
18:01:02 [fantasai]
18:01:09 [fantasai]
20 for 16:30
18:01:17 [fantasai]
17+18 for 15:30
18:01:28 [fantasai]
open slot at the end of the day friday
18:01:42 [fantasai]
Maciej: Anyone forsee any bad conflicts, anything you want moved? We have some slack in the schedule
18:02:00 [fantasai]
14 and X30 for 9am tomorrow
18:02:18 [fantasai]
Maciej has scheduled 15+17 twice
18:02:26 [fantasai]
open slot at 10am Fri
18:02:50 [DanC]
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18:02:58 [fantasai]
3+19 (Video) placed opposite TC-39 at 10am tomorrow (2hr slot)
18:03:19 [fantasai]
Maciej: Any other comments/
18:04:03 [fantasai]
20 moved to 14:00 today
18:04:43 [fantasai]
Joe: X3D has a use of canvas that will blow your mind, might be some interest between those parts
18:04:58 [fantasai]
Maciej swaps 14 and 12
18:05:02 [w3org]
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18:05:02 [fantasai]
14 at 17 today
18:05:12 [fantasai]
12 at 9am tom
18:05:46 [fantasai]
Maceij: Ok, we'll go with this. We can move things around later if necessary
18:08:26 [myakura]
do we have a slot for authoring materials?
18:09:09 [fantasai]
Tantek proposes less time for 20 - HTML Media Types
18:09:17 [fantasai]
it is now swapped with 2
18:09:26 [fantasai]
Maciej writes out the schedule
18:09:37 [fantasai]
18:09:43 [fantasai]
11-12:30 AM
18:09:55 [Julian]
Anne, you're keeping this up-to-date right?
18:10:00 [fantasai]
Session A: HTML vs ARIA semantics
18:10:08 [annevk]
Julian, several people are
18:10:14 [fantasai]
Session B: DCE , Object , Profile
18:10:27 [Julian]
18:10:29 [fantasai]
14-15:30 (2 PM)
18:10:36 [fantasai]
A: Canvas Accessibility
18:10:38 [fantasai]
18:10:51 [fantasai]
16-17 (4 PM)
18:10:59 [fantasai]
A: HTML Media Types
18:11:02 [fantasai]
B: Caching
18:11:17 [annevk]
here is a published version of the schedule that is updated as people make changes:
18:11:18 [pimpbot]
Title: htmlwg schedule (at
18:11:24 [fantasai]
17-18 (5 PM)
18:11:28 [fantasai]
A: Canvas Status
18:11:34 [fantasai]
B: Author vs Browser Responsibilities
18:12:21 [fantasai]
16, authoring materials, slotted for 16:30 tomorrow
18:13:05 [fantasai]
2nd track in this room (track with TAG), and 1st track in another room
18:13:16 [VagnerW3CBrasil]
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18:13:57 [fantasai]
other room is called Monterey?
18:15:22 [fantasai]
Maciej starts the break early
18:15:31 [fantasai]
since there is nothing left to discuss for the schedule
18:17:25 [fantasai]
Monterey sessions will be in #html-wg2
18:17:40 [oedipus]
thank you VERY much fantasiai
18:17:49 [oedipus]
er, fantasai
18:18:08 [fantasai]
HTML vs ARIA will be in their own task force channel
18:18:20 [cshelly]
HTML + ARIA session will be on IRC channel #aapi at 11 PST (in 42 minutes)
18:18:27 [Lachy]
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18:18:30 [silvia]
we'll have #video for the video discussion
18:19:01 [Lachy]
krijnh, can you log #html-wg2 ?
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18:21:08 [Hixie]
myakura: it's a great example of DCE
18:21:38 [Hixie]
no central authority to synchronise the names
18:21:44 [Hixie]
no conflicts in practice
18:21:46 [Hixie]
18:21:48 [Hixie]
18:23:35 [myakura]
18:25:42 [oedipus]
anne, could you add the IRC channel to the google spreadsheet?
18:25:44 [oedipus]
18:27:49 [gavin]
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18:42:54 [pimpbot]
planet: point to external html5.js script for validation oddity <11> 4** What are unusual and creative usages of html5 canvas <11> 4** html5 canvas element and svg. <11> 4** Firefox 3.6 Beta 1 is now
18:46:54 [annevk]
the alternate room is not monterey it is room 1243
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19:02:32 [tantek]
alternate channel is #html-wg2
19:02:39 [silvia1]
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19:03:38 [Julian]
starting with overview of extensibility points
19:03:41 [annevk]
Topic: Pre-HTML5 approaches
19:03:53 [annevk]
Joe Williams: [draws on whiteboard]
19:04:35 [annevk]
<object> was preceded by <embed>
19:04:43 [fantasai]
Joe: Then Netscape came up with <embed>
19:04:54 [fantasai]
Joe: Adobe working with them were able to get the flash player running with embed
19:05:00 [annevk]
#aapi iirc
19:05:04 [fantasai]
Joe: Plus being able ot respond to that nested context with some interfaces with the dom
19:05:07 [annevk]
silvia1, ^^
19:05:16 [fantasai]
Joe: Later <object> Was worked into the spec, MSFT came up with a good impl
19:05:24 [Eliot_Graff]
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19:05:24 [fantasai]
Joe: Shortly thereafter, all browsers
19:05:30 [fantasai]
Joe: began recognizing <object>
19:05:41 [fantasai]
Joe: To me tha twas one of the great signs that the browser wars were over. All the browsers did <object>
19:05:49 [Stevef]
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19:05:50 [fantasai]
Joe: That was great for people that wanted to build these nested objects in
19:06:02 [fantasai]
Joe: The thing about <object> is the type="mime"
19:06:15 [wendy]
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19:06:16 [fantasai]
Joe: The browser looked at that, and then knew how to start up the object
19:06:21 [fantasai]
Joe: The second important thing is <param>
19:06:39 [fantasai]
Joe: The params give the opportunity.. for one thing, whatever the browser's context is, should have a negotiated live interface
19:06:59 [fantasai]
Joe: E.g. if I have a param named src, and the context recognizes it, then I should be able to send the DOM name and the param name and have an active exchange.
19:07:04 [fantasai]
Joe: These params should be I/O live
19:07:17 [fantasai]
Joe: I can have a running object here
19:07:31 [fantasai]
Joe: I can have live I/O, listeners listening to the dom
19:07:36 [fantasai]
Joe: So I have a nested context thing
19:07:41 [weinig]
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19:07:45 [fantasai]
Joe: THe second most importan thing here is that <object> has fallback.
19:07:55 [krisk]
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19:08:11 [fantasai]
Joe: If it doesn't recognize the mime type, it'll drop into the HTML inside. It could be another <object> tag with another mime type or just some HTML
19:08:19 [fantasai]
Joe: A lot of people put <embed>.
19:08:25 [fantasai]
Joe: Which really isn't necessary anymore
19:08:33 [fantasai]
Joe: Its interface was a long string....
19:08:37 [shelleyp]
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19:08:38 [fantasai]
Joe: Anyway
19:08:40 [silvia]
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19:08:49 [fantasai]
Joe: What happens when a browser encounters an <object> tag is a nother thing that should be consistent.
19:08:58 [eric_carlson]
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19:09:04 [fantasai]
Joe: Nowadasy the browser wants to ask about security. It may be in an environment that doesn't look at <object>
19:09:17 [fantasai]
Joe: But anyway, how we develop the context here and get the extensibility we need
19:09:26 [fantasai]
Joe: We have a virtual engine in there that we can talk to
19:09:45 [fantasai]
Tony: You mentioned that you have some existing concerns about existing browser behavior
19:09:56 [fantasai]
Tony: Some of it's from the plugin side.
19:10:01 [fantasai]
19:10:04 [cardona507]
thanks for scribing fantasai
19:10:21 [fantasai]
Joe: From X3D for example, we have some initialization and runtime inputs that we'll accept. Not all the plugins willa ccept that
19:10:34 [fantasai]
Joe: From the other side there's a data attribute, and several other attributes, that will either name a specific runtime
19:10:43 [fantasai]
Joe: or ... but data's not a live param
19:10:57 [fantasai]
Joe: If you want to change the source file or ? , you have to rewrite your whole object tag
19:11:04 [fantasai]
Joe: because of the security that's built up around there,
19:11:10 [fantasai]
Joe: data gets checked differently in IE
19:11:16 [fantasai]
Joe: There are those kinds of inconsistencies
19:11:24 [tantek]
not AFAIK - IE6 does support some object data=
19:11:28 [tantek]
as did IE5/Mac
19:11:28 [fantasai]
Joe: ... Should be just a friendly consistent cycle that users can depend on
19:11:58 [fantasai]
Joe: If SVG is adopted and put in inline, how does the browser recognize that it's calling into another runtime? Or is it built into the browser and the author doesn't really care
19:12:01 [fantasai]
19:12:11 [tross]
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19:12:28 [fantasai]
Maciej: A lot of the behavior of the object tag you described, at least in browsers that use NPAPI, the API only has the ability to send params to the plugin when it is started up
19:12:44 [fantasai]
Maciej: If you try to resend params, the browser will either ignore it or restart the plugin
19:13:03 [pimpbot]
planet: Will Visual Studio 2010 support HTML 5? <11> 4** A sexy new name for the Open Web Stack? <11> 4** What are the boundaries or scope definitions of HTML5 development? <11> 4** HTM
19:13:09 [fantasai]
Maciej: I believe all browsers that have NPAPI also have ?? that gives you a real API on teh object itself
19:13:18 [fantasai]
maciej: So you don't have to do it through <param>
19:13:31 [fantasai]
Maciej: Because of limitations of NPAPI you can't have what your'e asking for
19:13:48 [fantasai]
Maciej: It's something that could be revised in future versions of NPAPI
19:14:07 [fantasai]
Joe: In the IE API, that is a real live trusted object in the document.
19:14:18 [fantasai]
Joe: The Netscape API doesn't quite treat it like that
19:14:29 [fantasai]
Joe: It's more like the embed thing, and the IE is more like the <object>
19:14:38 [fantasai]
Joe: ...
19:14:50 [fantasai]
Joe: What happens if you encouter an X3D link
19:14:57 [fantasai]
Joe: or another extensibility link?
19:15:10 [fantasai]
Joe: Just something friendly and consistent that we can play with. Thank you.
19:15:29 [fantasai]
Anne: Did you read the spec for <object>? It says that changing the data attr will reinstantiate the object.
19:15:45 [fantasai]
Joe: First of all, you want to get the thing running. You want to know when it's ready to accept the context argument. Then you know what you've got
19:16:24 [fantasai]
Joe: ...
19:16:34 [fantasai]
?: The <object> is crippled for ...
19:16:43 [fantasai]
Hixie: Why can't we expose an API?
19:16:45 [JF]
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19:17:00 [fantasai]
Joe: Bring out a context, operate on it in the DOM..
19:17:16 [fantasai]
Hixie: You can instatiate a plugin that doesn't have a data. To load a file there, you'd call the API for it
19:17:20 [fantasai]
Hixie: The solution is to ...
19:17:34 [fantasai]
Maciej: You could expose a load method for example, or you can even expose things that appear as custom JS properties
19:17:52 [fantasai]
Maciej: So you could even have.. snce object convenient doesn't have src itself, you could assign src and the plugin then magages that
19:18:03 [fantasai]
Joe: In IE I think the plugin passes the bag of params, and they negotiate that
19:18:14 [fantasai]
Maciej: That's similar with NPAPI. You initially get a dictionar of the param values
19:18:23 [fantasai]
Maciej: But in addition to that you can expose a direct scripting API
19:18:33 [fantasai]
Maciej: I'm sure with Activex you can expose a direct scripting API as well
19:18:44 [fantasai]
Tony: I don't think there's anything specific as far as HTML5 is concerned.
19:18:50 [fantasai]
Joe: I'm continuing to look at the object element description
19:18:59 [fantasai]
Joe: Last time I looked the operation with the data paramter was more complete
19:19:06 [fantasai]
Joe: also things like what happens when you change the time
19:19:10 [fantasai]
19:19:21 [fantasai]
Joe: ... It's just that, a uniform way to do it
19:19:50 [fantasai]
Anne: The data attribute is about an external resource. The browser may need to fetch the resource, and in a lot of instances this determines what type of plugin to instantiate, which is why it's reinstantiated
19:20:07 [fantasai]
Jeo: Whether or not the browser is the best one to decide whether the file is correct, is a question
19:20:43 [fantasai]
Hixie: THe concern is makin sure that given a particular state of DOM, there needs to be consistency with whether you load again the state, ro mutate to that state
19:20:46 [tantek]
FYI #html-wg2 is logged at:
19:20:51 [fantasai]
Hixie: Suppose you have a plugin that supported flash and QT
19:21:01 [fantasai]
Hixie: ...
19:21:17 [fantasai]
Hixie: But hten you go to a user that supports one but and claims to support th eother, but only when changingit
19:21:21 [fantasai]
Hixie: ...
19:21:34 [fantasai]
Joe: I don't want to nail what object does with x3d or any kind of extension
19:21:39 [fantasai]
Joe: It remains a basic part of extensibility
19:21:52 [fantasai]
Tony: Let' smove on
19:22:05 [fantasai]
Julian: Profile there are several aspects to that discussion.
19:22:17 [fantasai]
Julian: First of all the descriptionin the HTML4 spec was broken wrt multiple profiles
19:22:29 [fantasai]
Julian: I spent a few hours to write precise erratum for HTMl4
19:22:33 [fantasai]
Julian: I'm not sure what to do with that
19:23:07 [fantasai]
Julian: Manual has started work on a separate work that takes advantage of the clause in HTML5 that allows other specs to define things base don profile
19:23:10 [fantasai]
19:23:17 [fantasai]
Julian: The current proposal is to define a linke relation called profile
19:23:31 [MikeSmith]
s/Monterey/suite 1243/g
19:23:40 [fantasai]
Julian: Has the advantage of not using the profile attribute, but the disadvantage of existing things needitng to be updated not to us eht profile attr
19:23:43 [fantasai]
19:24:05 [fantasai]
Tantek: There have only been a few efforts that take advantage of the profile attr
19:24:13 [fantasai]
Tantek: Dublin Core is one, but hasn't gotten much uptake
19:24:26 [fantasai]
tantek: Microformats then started, and they're pretty popular
19:24:42 [fantasai]
Tantek: rel value was introduced in HTml2, and now we have a separate microformats
19:24:56 [fantasai]
Tantek: People can pick a specific rel vocab with the profile attribute
19:25:19 [fantasai]
Tantek: Whatever HTMl5 does with profile, it's a good design .... ...
19:25:21 [fantasai]
19:25:26 [fantasai]
Tantek: There are 2 different specs.
19:25:38 [fantasai]
Julian: ??? Behaviorial spec
19:25:43 [fantasai]
Julian: Droppe dversion
19:25:53 [fantasai]
Julian: Now only describing profile attr and profile link relation
19:26:05 [fantasai]
Julian: So manual's profile only specifies link profile inherit
19:26:13 [fantasai]
Julian: There's opportunity to make it work on <a> element as well
19:26:20 [fantasai]
Julian: And potentially also on <link>s outside <head>
19:26:28 [fantasai]
Tantek: Microformats encourages <a> but allows <link>
19:26:34 [weinig]
[Are there links available for the specs being mentioned?]
19:27:02 [fantasai]
Tantek: Recommends use of rel="profile" to link to theprofile inline, to better match authoring CMS patterns wher epeople work on different sections of the page
19:27:15 [fantasai]
Julian: I think we should continue to discuss that on the mailing list
19:27:33 [fantasai]
Julian: Some people wonder about replacing profile with link rel=profile, why are we doing that if the functionality is exactly the same
19:27:49 [fantasai]
Julian: If we do so it makes a lot of sense to look into options to make it more useful
19:28:01 [fantasai]
Julian: Then there's the quesiton of should it be a separate spec, or should we put back into the main spec
19:28:11 [weinig]
[Perhaps ?]
19:28:12 [annevk]
can people put some links into IRC?
19:28:12 [pimpbot]
Title: Extended Processing Behavior in HTML5 (at
19:28:19 [fantasai]
Maciej: rel="profile" doesn't need to be in the spec because it uses the rel extension registry
19:28:43 [fantasai]
JuliN: That reminds me of a topic we forgot about, where doe the ? for HTMl5 live
19:29:02 [fantasai]
Julian: Is this particular attribute something that should live in the base spec
19:29:05 [fantasai]
... wiki page
19:29:29 [fantasai]
Tantek: I'm proceeding with the assumption that the current mechnanism in the HTML5 spec is sufficient and using microformats from there
19:29:38 [fantasai]
Tantek: There is one impl currently of rel=profile that processes it
19:29:48 [fantasai]
Tantek: It processes it either strict mode or ? mode
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19:30:03 [fantasai]
Tantek: In strict mode it requries the profile uri string, in loose mode authros are rcommended to use it
19:30:10 [fantasai]
Tantek: It's called Cognition
19:30:25 [DanC]
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19:30:26 [Hixie]
is toby inkster here?
19:30:27 [fantasai]
Hixie: Would be interesting to hear what the authors of that think the use is
19:30:34 [fantasai]
Joe: So this is an example of extending by giving a uri
19:30:49 [fantasai]
Tantek summarizes the HTML4 definition of profile and its relation to rel
19:30:54 [hsivonen]
as I understand it, Cognition doesn't use @profile by default
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19:31:03 [fantasai]
Tantek: 2003 I wrote XMDP to create a profile format
19:31:11 [hsivonen]
it isn't much of an endorsement-by-implementation to have it off-by-default
19:31:19 [fantasai]
Tantek: To date there have been a few processors that use it, but mostly as a validation checking thing.
19:31:28 [fantasai]
Tantek: Some use it for transformation to RDF/GRDDL
19:31:49 [fantasai]
Julian: .. he said that if there's conensensus that this is the right way he has no problem doing so
19:32:04 [tantek]
19:32:04 [fantasai]
Julian: Talk if authors are willing to migrate away from that. I can take that to DCH
19:32:05 [pimpbot]
Title: XMDP: Introduction and Format Description (at
19:32:13 [fantasai]
Julian: Tantek is here, he knows the right thing for microformats
19:32:17 [tantek]
19:32:19 [fantasai]
Julian: Don't know aht other specs use prifle
19:32:19 [pimpbot]
Title: rel profile Microformats Wiki (at
19:32:29 [fantasai]
19:32:41 [fantasai]
Maciej: Would our goal be to get these specs updated to use rel=profile?
19:32:50 [fantasai]
Tantek: I think so. I'm working with microformats to do that
19:32:59 [fantasai]
Joe: These vocabs aren't necessarily related to processing the DOM
19:33:08 [fantasai]
Tantek: They don't contribute to the DOM, they are already part of existing attr
19:33:18 [fantasai]
Tantek: e.g. class attribute is space-separated tokens. Microformats makes use of that
19:33:38 [fantasai]
Tantek: There are some browsers, e.g. ff, that can parse that and create a dom interface out of microformats.
19:33:44 [fantasai]
Tantek: but that hasn't been propsoed for standardization
19:34:01 [fantasai]
Tantek: Side note, I know tha tbinding things as URIs is not totally agreed on and not often used
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19:34:15 [fantasai]
Tantek: There are nontrivial communities that do think it's important and do want that ability
19:34:30 [fantasai]
Tantek: Just talking with TIm, it would be helpful with linked data
19:34:55 [fantasai]
Tony: Tantek, would you be willing to talk more about how mf take advantage of HTML syntax today?
19:35:02 [fantasai]
tantek: MF takes advantage of rel and class
19:35:06 [shiki]
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19:35:12 [fantasai]
Tantek: HTml spec has language to allow that
19:35:20 [fantasai]
Tantke: XFN in 2003 took advantage of that
19:35:37 [fantasai]
Tantek: In addition modern web designers have been using class attr for their own uses, e.g. class="header' class="footer"
19:36:04 [fantasai]
Tantek: MF takes advantage of that existing pattern of creating semantics with classes,
19:36:17 [fantasai]
Tantek: often takes existing vocabs as class names, e.g. with hCard
19:36:22 [fantasai]
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19:36:33 [fantasai]
Julian: Ressurects the Link header from HTTP spec
19:36:40 [fantasai]
Julian: It allows exposing link relations in HTTP headers
19:36:49 [fantasai]
Julian : useful if you want to declare a link relation isn't HTML
19:36:57 [fantasai]
Julian: That spec suggests IANA registry fro shortnames
19:37:05 [fantasai]
Julian: Web Linking spec
19:37:14 [fantasai]
Julian: That spec passed IETF Last Call
19:37:20 [fantasai]
Julian: Mark Nottingham is here today
19:37:24 [fantasai]
Julian: might be able to talk to him
19:37:28 [annevk]
19:37:30 [pimpbot]
Title: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06 - Web Linking (at
19:37:38 [fantasai]
Julian: I think also about the media parameter
19:37:43 [hsivonen]
what would it mean to use rel=profile on the HTTP level for a non-HTML HTTP response?
19:37:59 [fantasai]
Julian: There's a potential conflict between the rel value registry that HTML5 spec currently defines and the IANA registry the IETF is proposing
19:38:08 [fantasai]
Julian: Don't know whether we canr esovle that conflict or whether it's significant
19:38:18 [fantasai]
Julian: Anything used outside HTML might wind up in both registries
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19:38:28 [Julian]
19:38:29 [pimpbot]
Title: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06 - Web Linking (at
19:38:39 [fantasai]
Tony: In terms of ppl being able to add extneions into HTML, custom attributes is something frameworks tend to make use of
19:38:49 [fantasai]
Tony:IF you don't care about validation you could do this in browsers for years
19:39:07 [fantasai]
Tony: It's a concern for frameworks whether their declarative markup validats in terms of whether customers are willing to use it
19:39:13 [fantasai]
Tony: data- gives us that
19:39:21 [fantasai]
Anne: When we added attrs for WF2, it broke some stuff
19:39:48 [fantasai]
Hixie: As we extend HTML we run into conflicts with these names
19:39:54 [fantasai]
Hixie: We've had to rename some things
19:40:05 [fantasai]
Hixie: kind of sad, because w can't use these attrs on form elements for example
19:40:22 [fantasai]
Hixie: THere's a distinction between attrs that are site-specific thing to hook into scripts
19:40:30 [fantasai]
Hixie: e.g. in HTML5 spec I annotate elements for cross-references
19:40:40 [fantasai]
Hixie: that's a closed environment where I'm extending the language in some way
19:40:44 [Julian]
s/That spec passed IETF Last Call/That spec is past IETF Last Call/
19:40:50 [fantasai]
Hixie: then there are more broad extensions like <canvas> and <marquee>
19:40:56 [Julian]
(which means there are still open issues to resolve)
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19:41:25 [fantasai]
Tony: Distinguish extnesions you make for your homepage or JS framework, and ... roundtripping of metadata that we've supported
19:41:39 [fantasai]
Tony: For a page author embedding data in their own page data- gives them a safe path forward.
19:41:50 [fantasai]
Tony: We don't have to worry about name clashes going forward
19:41:58 [fantasai]
Tony: it's not clear whether that's available to frameworks or not
19:42:14 [fantasai]
Tony: And what authoring best practices are
19:42:30 [fantasai]
Talking about data-svg-?
19:42:38 [fantasai]
and SVG library writen in JS
19:43:01 [fantasai]
data-path is too general, likely to conflict
19:43:35 [fantasai]
Hixie: If your bunch of content is self-contained, and self-consistent, it's fine
19:43:56 [fantasai]
Hixie: It's only aproblem when the content expect something from outside itself, e.g. the browser, to interact with it that we get a problem
19:44:06 [fantasai]
Maciej: Frameworks are part of the page, they're just also reusable
19:44:28 [fantasai]
Maciej: They don't create a situation where you're using data- to publish information to be consumed by others
19:44:52 [fantasai]
Tantek: Once people start using the same data- attributes with the same libraries across sites, you'll start getting de-facto standards
19:45:02 [fantasai]
Hixie: ...
19:45:12 [fantasai]
Hixie: We should use MF to encode data for wider usage
19:45:27 [fantasai]
Tantek: Can we give some guidance in the spec, warning don't go further than this
19:45:42 [fantasai]
Tony: Do we want to have a distinction between a single page author's stuff vs. script librarie's stuff?
19:45:56 [hsivonen]
the author controls which libraries to include
19:46:07 [hsivonen]
so in that sense, the author is in control of the libs, too
19:46:09 [fantasai]
Hixie: There's a difference between what I use on my page and Dojo, but these are opposite ends of a spectrum. It is a spectrum.
19:46:18 [fantasai]
Hixie: things will migrate across the spectrum
19:46:31 [fantasai]
Hixie: and there's no clear transition pointt
19:46:41 [fantasai]
Maciej: If you use data- attrs, you should use some kind of prefix
19:47:09 [fantasai]
Maciej: While data- stops clases with future standardds or browsers, might be useful to give some guidance over avoiding clashes amongst themselves.
19:47:19 [fantasai]
Maciej: don't want Dojo and JQuery fighting over attr names
19:47:25 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:47:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
19:47:27 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
19:47:38 [fantasai]
Anne: x- usually means experimental
19:47:44 [fantasai]
Joe: Or extensible
19:48:04 [fantasai]
Tony: Perhaps something else, but would that be worthwile. Do I want data-jquer-* for all my widgets?
19:48:16 [fantasai]
Maciej: Well ? are already unbelievably long
19:48:28 [fantasai]
Hixie: We don't have any control over this. We can just give advice
19:48:54 [fantasai]
Hixie: If i write a page that uses one attribute and only I use it, I'm not going to write data-x-hixie-foo
19:48:55 [hsivonen]
IIRC, dojo already puts "dojo" into its custom attributes that predate data-*
19:49:09 [fantasai]
Hixie: We can and should give guidance for framworks etc
19:49:20 [gsnedders|work]
It's not actually "dojo", but rather "d".
19:49:24 [fantasai]
Tony: For the people sitting on that edge, we're hitting into very long attr names
19:49:32 [fantasai]
19:50:01 [fantasai]
Tony: The longer the names are the less chance of name collisions, but also they become more unweildy
19:50:04 [fantasai]
19:50:32 [hsivonen]
gsnedders|work, I see dojoType at
19:50:32 [fantasai]
Tantek: I think we should go with Maciej's proposal to add prefixes if you're writing a library, and if there's pushback, deal with it then
19:50:33 [pimpbot]
Title: Dojo Campus - Feature Explorer (at
19:50:45 [fantasai]
Tony: One other use case was metadata for non-browsers UAs in terms fo roundtripping
19:50:46 [gsnedders|work]
hsivonen: Then I guess it uses a mixture
19:50:57 [fantasai]
Tony: I think microdata was intended for that purpose
19:51:12 [hsivonen]
(it's a very bad idea to use a capital 'T' in dojoType, though)
19:51:13 [fantasai]
Tony: I was wondering what the consensus is on whether it's sufficient
19:51:28 [fantasai]
Hixie: I'd be surprised if we had consensus that it's insfuficient, it's basically RDF model
19:51:32 [fantasai]
Maciej: ...
19:51:46 [fantasai]
Julian: Is it sufficient, I think it is. There's an open discussion on typing
19:51:58 [fantasai]
Julian: More interesting question is whether we want microdata to be part of the HTML5 spec
19:52:04 [fantasai]
Tony prefers to hold that one off for other session
19:52:10 [fantasai]
Tantek: 9am tom
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19:52:25 [fantasai]
Tantek: One thing that would help with q of what should editors do, is more documentaiton on the use cases
19:52:51 [fantasai]
Tantek: More documentation for editors on decentralized extensibility use cases
19:52:55 [gsnedders|work]
hsivonen: Also uses djConfig
19:53:08 [fantasai]
ACTION Tony: write that on the wiki (decentralized extensibility use cases for editors)
19:53:08 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Tony
19:53:16 [hsivonen]
it's not clear that it's good for editors to dump a lot of product-specific stuff into files
19:53:28 [fantasai]
Tony: Knowing that a lot of frameworks and MF use class names to perform typing, is there value in letting them have their own elements.
19:53:30 [hsivonen]
Dreamweaver even has a feature for "cleaning up" Word HTML
19:53:38 [fantasai]
Tantek: don't understand what you mean
19:53:47 [fantasai]
Tony: Adding semantics so that it's more than just a div
19:53:50 [fantasai]
Hixie: use case?
19:54:04 [fantasai]
Tony: Do you feel there's value in being able to have a more concise syntax such as an element name
19:54:08 [fantasai]
Tantek: I see anti-value
19:54:31 [fantasai]
Hixie: big problems with new element is that UAs that don't understand it is that you fall back to the semantics of nothing.
19:54:41 [fantasai]
Hixie; With class, if you have a subclass of paragraph, you at least fall back to paragraph
19:55:14 [fantasai]
Tony: I'm talking about context of page author or script library, the opt-in mechanism of the script library or author adding semantics
19:55:22 [fantasai]
Hixie: Adding meaning is fine, this isn't that
19:55:39 [hsivonen]
see also in the context of Illustrator SVG output
19:55:40 [pimpbot]
Title: Sam Ruby: Open Source Duke (at
19:55:47 [fantasai]
Tantek: space-separated class names allows MF to layer multiple semantics onto a single element: very concise, rich semantics
19:56:03 [fantasai]
Tantek: If they were elements, it'd be weird, bloated, and you'd get weird tree problems
19:56:29 [fantasai]
Maciej: The tree format choices are a problem. It's hard to add semantics without affecting the DOM, scripts, styling, etc.
19:56:45 [fantasai]
Maciej: Also things that are extensions right now might become standards later
19:56:54 [fantasai]
Maciej: It's easy to put two dfferent attrs on an element,
19:57:00 [fantasai]
Maciej: but you can't combine elements
19:57:15 [fantasai]
Tantek: Elements are bad because they make it more difficult ot overlay semantics
19:57:21 [fantasai]
Tantek: Lose fallback semantics
19:57:33 [hsivonen]
the downside is that classes can't affect the DOM interface of the element for "extensions" that later become native
19:57:33 [fantasai]
Tantek: Make migration to standards more difficult
19:57:38 [fantasai]
[3 reasons]
19:58:28 [fantasai]
Hixie; If apple inventing invented d-apple-canvas, and mozilla did d-moz-canvas, then you could put them both on the same div
19:58:39 [fantasai]
Maciej: and once standardized, you could put both on <canvas> element
19:59:01 [fantasai]
Maciej: UA etensions tend not to migrate to standards, but other names do
19:59:36 [fantasai]
Maciej: Script libraries it's harder to have the script library turn itself off when it's not needed (..?)
20:00:00 [fantasai]
Tony: We wouldn't want to standardize on the extended syntax anyway, bc it's reserved for extension
20:00:14 [fantasai]
Tony: i see that for most common cases attrs would be more usefl
20:00:20 [fantasai]
Tony: I dont think we need to talk much about prefixing anymore
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20:00:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
20:00:27 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
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20:00:38 [fantasai]
Tony: One of my biggest ocncerns here isn't about name collisions, it's about consistency
20:00:46 [fantasai]
Tony: GOing to HTML5 as it exists today, doesn't jive for me
20:01:00 [fantasai]
tony: Namespaces are all over the place. used to describe so much of what HTML5 is and what it does
20:01:09 [fantasai]
Tony: but it's all implicit, I can't access it
20:01:16 [fantasai]
Hixie: I'd like to remove it all
20:01:28 [fantasai]
Hixie: namespaces are hidden as much as possible, but unfortunately not complete possible.
20:01:35 [fantasai]
Tony: rolled SVG and MathML specs
20:02:00 [fantasai]
Hixie: We def don't want arbitrary vocabs to be included in HTML
20:02:07 [fantasai]
Tony: Have to wait for HTMl6?
20:02:11 [cardona507]
html6 next year?
20:02:18 [fantasai]
Hixie: It's happened twice in 19 years?
20:02:24 [fantasai]
Hixie: HTML6 starts next year anyway
20:02:46 [fantasai]
Tony: ... same tag name across different name spaces. If I reshuffle these in the DOM, I can't reserialize anything
20:02:57 [fantasai]
Hixie: You can reserialize anything that is conforming
20:03:05 [fantasai]
Hixie: I agree it's a probelm having all this namespace stuff in HTML
20:03:31 [fantasai]
Hixie: e.g. you want to XHR an XHTML document and just import those nodes... I think it'll be a nonstarter to as SVG to remvoe their namespaces
20:03:45 [fantasai]
Hixie: It's unfortunate, but we're past the point where we can chagne it
20:03:57 [fantasai]
Julian: THe opposite, to actually allow prefixed names in HTML, would be worse
20:04:07 [fantasai]
Tony: Why do you feel that way?
20:04:25 [fantasai]
Hixie: There are different aspects of namespaces, different types of disasters. ANy particular ones I should talk about?
20:04:30 [fantasai]
Hixie: A lot of them are prefix-specific.
20:04:38 [fantasai]
Hixie: If we remove those and have names being tuples
20:05:11 [fantasai]
Hixie: We have the same name that means different things. And people don't typically use the full long names, they use the short ones.
20:05:18 [fantasai]
Hixie: ppl find namespaces very confusing
20:05:38 [fantasai]
Maciej: People use prefixes without namespace decl
20:06:03 [fantasai]
Maciej: and you end up with this mechanism where theoretically you have these URIs but in reality you're tied to these prefixes
20:06:17 [fantasai]
Hixie: ? made interesting observation after writing book on XForms
20:06:27 [fantasai]
Hixie: 80% of the emails he received were asking him on namespaces
20:06:34 [fantasai]
Hixie: this is a book on xforms, not even about namespaces
20:06:43 [fantasai]
Maciej: XForms isn't namespace heavy
20:07:05 [fantasai]
Hixie: And yet of the whole of XForms, which is a massively complicaed language, 80% of questions were about namespaces
20:07:17 [fantasai]
Julian: Many ppl have bad experiences with namespaces, maybe some have good experiences
20:07:42 [fantasai]
Hixie: I doubt it. I guarantee there are namespace problems in the WebDAV space as well
20:08:08 [fantasai]
Hixie: I've been involved with ppl invovled with the design of WebDAV that dont' get it
20:08:20 [fantasai]
Maciej: It's not just that some people have problem understanding namespaces
20:08:33 [fantasai]
Maciej: it's also that some people haveing trouble with it throws off everything else
20:08:55 [fantasai]
Maciej: If they start using namespaces wrong then we start a dependency cycle where processors and authors use namespaces wrong
20:09:17 [fantasai]
Maciej: If ppl just got confused and caused themselves problems, that'd be bad, but if they get confused and cause other people problems, that's worse
20:09:23 [fantasai]
Tony: ..
20:09:32 [fantasai]
Tony: If youre content just didn't display, you'd know there's a problem
20:09:58 [fantasai]
Maciej: People don't publish content with problems if the browser doesn't behave as they expect
20:10:01 [fantasai]
as often
20:10:19 [fantasai]
Tantek: People tend to fall into 2 camps. 1. They see namespaces, it looks confusing, and run away
20:10:23 [hsivonen]
(the XForms book author Hixie referred to is Micah Dubinko)
20:10:36 [fantasai]
Tantek: 2. Or they think they understand it, use copy&paste, and have trouble with it
20:10:47 [fantasai]
Tantek: Unless you live and breathe namespaces, you're like to get it wrong
20:11:04 [fantasai]
Tantek: We see this problem even at w3c
20:11:26 [fantasai]
20:12:38 [fantasai]
?: Some of the criticism of namespaces while still allowing ...
20:12:52 [fantasai]
20:13:12 [fantasai]
Rob likes Liam Q's unobtrusive namespaces
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20:13:28 [fantasai]
Tony: I don't know all the syntax he's looking for, but the intend and what he was trying to achieve.
20:13:43 [hsivonen]
more than once on W3C-related occasions, I have had to explain Namespaces to people who work on specs that purport to build on Namespaces
20:13:51 [fantasai]
Tony: There was the idea of having external file that auto-binds element names
20:14:03 [hsivonen]
Namespaces are too hard even for people who work on specs at the W3C
20:14:03 [fantasai]
Tony: and can have switches for descendent elements
20:14:11 [fantasai]
Tony: Basically generalizing what HTML5 does
20:14:23 [fantasai]
Tony: ...
20:14:47 [fantasai]
Tony: So you can write different files, mix in something new either osmething broadly standardized or something local that only you use
20:15:01 [fantasai]
Tony: You can have HTML processing, don't have explicit namespaces in your document
20:15:51 [fantasai]
Rob: Let's say someone wants ot add a new feature, then if that gets adopted it becomes part of HTMl6
20:15:58 [fantasai]
Rob: Fixes some of the migration issues
20:16:11 [fantasai]
Julian: Problem with that is that then the semantics of your page depend on this external file
20:16:31 [fantasai]
JuliaN: you have this external resource, you have something similar to the DTD fetching problem
20:16:57 [fantasai]
Julian: Also we're saying already that the indirection of namespaces is too complicated, and we're making it even more indirect
20:17:15 [fantasai]
Tony: I don't know that it's indirection. What it allows is for authors to to think about just the element.s
20:17:36 [fantasai]
Tony: Authors can reap the advantages of mashupws without being exposed to their complexities
20:17:50 [fantasai]
20:18:03 [fantasai]
Tony: createElementNS and createElement is already a problem
20:18:15 [fantasai]
Maciej: No reason we can't extend createElement to handle this the same way as the parser
20:18:33 [fantasai]
Maciej: Classic XML namespaces bind a prefix to a namespace URI. THat's a level of indirection, and that also has certain nesting rules.
20:18:42 [fantasai]
Maciej: This would bind namespaces to an actual tag name.
20:19:02 [fantasai]
Maciej: There's definitely potential for confusion there, where if you communicate with someone that's not using the same predefined namespace file
20:19:41 [fantasai]
Maciej: But you don't have the problem of having an arbitrary token used just for indirection
20:19:55 [fantasai]
Julian: But it's na external file. can we put this in the head somehow?
20:20:07 [fantasai]
Maciej: would be too long
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20:20:20 [fantasai]
Tony: ... [not really b/c of nestign bhavior]
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20:20:49 [fantasai]
Maciej: It's different in the sense that authors could themselves use the same behavior for their own vocabularies
20:20:56 [fantasai]
Maciej: and in the future could be ...
20:21:21 [fantasai]
maciej: If the logical model is that there's a predefined model, doesn't mean the UA has to fetch it each time.
20:21:40 [fantasai]
Maciej: If you wanted to do it for custom elements, then you'd have tlink it and read it
20:21:54 [fantasai]
Tantek: That sound isomorphic to DTDs. I don't see the difference.
20:22:13 [fantasai]
Anne: Having a file you have to load to parse it is not a good idea.
20:22:23 [fantasai]
Julian: Well, you could parse it, but not do anything beyond that
20:22:45 [fantasai]
Julian: I think we should consider that we may be able to come up with a clever way to use namespaces, but it will be a different way from XML
20:23:07 [fantasai]
Julian: I'm skeptical that we can make it friend or that it will be less confusing. I think by creating a second way to do the same thing we're adding to the confusion
20:23:18 [fantasai]
20:23:23 [fantasai]
20:24:03 [Hixie]
20:24:04 [fantasai]
Lachy: I don't think we should be develping a solution for adding namespaces to HTML if XHTML will work fine in the future (once we have support in IE)
20:24:04 [pimpbot]
Title: WebDAV Mini-Redirector (MRXDAV.SYS) Versions and Issues List (at
20:24:39 [fantasai]
Carlos: It seemed like Tim was pretty passionate about this. Anyone have an idea what exactly?
20:24:43 [fantasai]
Maciej: He loves namespaces
20:24:48 [fantasai]
Joe: Aren't we saying that..
20:24:56 [fantasai]
Joe: I see this as two sides, the text/html side
20:25:01 [fantasai]
Joe: and then there's the XHTML side
20:25:07 [Julian]
notes that this is a problem of a client that properly handles prefixes, just not default namespaces
20:25:09 [fantasai]
Joe: And on the HTML side the browser is covering my but
20:25:11 [fantasai]
20:25:36 [fantasai]
Joe: It's not a validating parser, it's got fixups, it's got makeups, ituses tables, doesn't care about dtd. Just cares about what it has hard-coded
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20:26:01 [fantasai]
Joe: In XHTML the browser is stupid, it doesn't know anything at all. I tell it what it's got to do. It learns in an entirely different way than in text/html
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20:27:03 [fantasai]
Joe: I'm saying that to have text/html be extensible, I've got to change
20:27:19 [fantasai]
Joe: In XHTML I just give it a new namespace, and a new schema
20:27:28 [fantasai]
Joe: It's easy to extend XHTML, hard to extend HTML
20:27:48 [fantasai]
Joe: On one side I deal with the browser's built-ins, on the other I have extensibility
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20:28:01 [fantasai]
Tantek: it sounds like there are multiple proposals for adding some form of namespaces to HTML
20:29:09 [fantasai]
Anne: The basic idea of XML5 is to add some of the error-recovery ideas of HTML to XML. It would still have extensibility and namespaces and stuff. Authors could then use that
20:30:15 [fantasai]
Maciej: The idea is to have a second way of handling application/xml that handled conforming documents the same, but for nonconforming documents handled errors in a well-defined manner that didn't catch fire
20:30:32 [hsivonen]
about the Microsoft proposal: would MS implement it across all modes of IE (including the IE 5.5 mode) if it were adopted into a W3C spec?
20:30:57 [fantasai]
Maciej: THe interesting thing about htis proposal is it would provide the people that want xml namespaces with athe ability to have lenient error-handling
20:30:57 [hsivonen]
that is, does Microsoft believe it's compatible enough with existing content to be implemented across all modes?
20:31:21 [fantasai]
Maciej: The disadvantage si that the people that want the draconian error handling can't get that anymore
20:31:52 [hsivonen]
I think doing XML5 would be more sensible than bending text/html into the requirements of the XML community
20:32:04 [fantasai]
My personal opinion is that XML parsers in browsers shouldn't bail on the whole document on errors, they should just close all tags and then abort
20:32:17 [fantasai]
obvious error, but you get at least something usable
20:32:27 [fantasai]
if you're just a reader
20:32:50 [fantasai]
Meeting closed
20:32:59 [MikeSmith]
action: Steve to bring question to group: Do we want changing of element handler and role semantics via attributes to be deprecated?
20:32:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-158 - Bring question to group: Do we want changing of element handler and role semantics via attributes to be deprecated? [on Steve Faulkner - due 2009-11-12].
20:33:56 [fantasai]
MikeSmith: I can't minute TAG
20:34:05 [fantasai]
MikeSmith: It's in the afternoon, I'm not available this afternoon
20:34:17 [MikeSmith]
fantasai, OK
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20:43:25 [pimpbot]
planet: Distributed Extensibility <11>
20:44:08 [Laura]
rrsagent, draft minutes
20:44:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Laura
20:44:09 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
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21:49:41 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8207] Change definition of URL to normative reference to IRIBIS <11> 4** [Bug 8207] New: Change definition of URL to normative reference to IRIBIS <11>
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21:57:50 [rubys]
hsivonen: ping?
21:58:05 [annevk]
we're still somewhat stuck in the security room
21:58:12 [annevk]
hopefully this is rounded up within 5 minutes
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21:58:49 [annevk]
(not hsivonen btw, he's at home :) )
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annevk: security room?
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21:59:57 [MikeSmith]
I suspect hsivonen may be sleeping by now
22:00:00 [annevk]
yeah, because of the fire earlier
22:00:06 [MikeSmith]
.t hsivonen
22:00:06 [phenny]
Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:00:07 EET
22:00:13 [Lachy]
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22:00:20 [gsnedders]
annevk: fire? what?
22:00:21 [Philip]
gsnedders: It's the room with all the CCTV displays so they can snoop on the other attendees
22:02:53 [silvia]
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22:03:21 [rubys]
For hsivonen to ponder at some later point:
22:03:22 [pimpbot]
Title: Sam Ruby: Web3D (at
22:03:40 [paulc]
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22:03:47 [MichaelC]
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22:04:31 [paulc]
TAG and HTML WG joint session:
22:04:32 [pimpbot]
Title: TAG and HTML WG joint meeting discussion topics from Paul Cotton on 2009-11-05 ( from November 2009) (at
22:07:25 [Kangchan]
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22:09:14 [mjs]
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22:13:39 [ht]
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22:13:52 [annevk]
Topic: joint meeting with TAG
22:13:53 [PIon]
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22:13:59 [annevk]
Paul Cotton is giving an intro
22:14:26 [annevk]
note to TAG members on IRC: scribing is adhoc
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22:14:47 [annevk]
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22:14:58 [DanC]
ok... i.e. if you want it recorded, record it
22:15:04 [annevk]
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22:15:19 [paulc]
noah giving an intro to the TAG
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22:16:04 [paulc]
TAG charter:
22:16:05 [pimpbot]
Title: Technical Architecture Group (TAG) Charter (at
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22:17:36 [paulc]
Starting discussion with
22:17:37 [pimpbot]
Title: TAG and HTML WG joint meeting discussion topics from Paul Cotton on 2009-11-05 ( from November 2009) (at
22:20:11 [adrianba]
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22:21:38 [paulc]
Possible topics:
22:21:48 [paulc]
a) text/html media type
22:21:54 [DanC]
maybe we could skip the (rest of) the read-thru and start discussion?
22:22:16 [paulc]
b) URI/IRI/WebAddr
22:22:33 [DanC]
my mental stack is about full
22:23:06 [tantek]
Noah is summarizing the Discussion Topics
22:23:15 [paulc]
c) Embedding data in HTML Documents
22:23:35 [paulc]
d) Language reference/authoring specification
22:23:56 [DanC]
scribe: DanC
22:24:08 [Zakim]
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22:24:10 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
22:24:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
22:24:11 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
22:24:15 [eric_carlson]
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22:25:03 [DanC]
Topic: text/html media type
22:25:11 [annevk]
(Larry was in the security BOF; thought he would come here.)
22:25:21 [MikeSmith]
22:26:10 [DanC]
PaulC: do you have proposed text re polyglot documents?
22:26:18 [timbl]
22:26:22 [timbl]
22:26:26 [paulc]
ack tim
22:26:26 [MikeSmith]
q+ to ask about current wording of definition of "XHTML" in the spec
22:26:27 [annevk]
ack timbl
22:26:32 [ht]
q+ to check 'tiny sliver'
22:26:39 [DanC]
Hixie: not yet; the bug came in yesterday or so...
22:27:10 [mjs]
22:27:17 [ht]
q- ht
22:27:20 [DanC]
... the intent was to [sorry, missed]; there's a small intersection between HTML and XML, called polyglot documents...
22:27:28 [Julian]
22:27:48 [DanC]
... the text [did something wrong in that case]; I expect to fix that.
22:27:54 [Julian]
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22:28:21 [DanC]
TimBL: perhaps the intersection is small by count of strings, but it's a valuable language with a community of practice around it
22:28:27 [annevk]
22:28:34 [dsinger]
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22:28:42 [paulc]
ack Mike
22:28:42 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about current wording of definition of "XHTML" in the spec
22:28:44 [DanC]
Hixie: so I hear; could you elaborate on why you value it?
22:29:03 [noahm]
q+ to ask whether we don't already have a good resolution
22:29:04 [DanC]
TimBL: if you use XML tools, [it's nice]
22:29:12 [Hixie]
q+ to mention you need a special outputter anyway to do this
22:29:25 [annevk]
q- to let Hixie say it so I don't have to
22:29:37 [ht]
q+ to mention cocoon, XProc, docman tooling in general
22:29:37 [DanC]
MikeSmith: meanwhile, HTML5 parsers are being slotted in where XML processors have been, e.g. on the front of XSLT engines.
22:29:44 [DanC]
[some example; help?]
22:30:08 [ht]
s/[some example; help?]/HTMLXSLT, from Henri Sivonen/
22:30:19 [DanC]
MikeSmith: another point: the definition of XHTML... at some point, the spec defined it as "a document served with an XML media type"... I lost track of where it is now...
22:31:07 [DanC]
... people objected to it; people don't want to be told that the document they call XHTML can't be served as text/html. I have some empathy [sympathy?] for this position.
22:31:33 [DanC]
Hixie: yes, if you constrain yourself to the intersection...
22:31:40 [Kai]
q+ to ask, naively, what this would mean for our XHTML pages, served as text/html, our hundreds of partner companies and basically the whole structure of an XHTML based world of portals
22:32:00 [paulc]
22:32:03 [paulc]
Ack mjs
22:32:05 [DanC]
22:32:12 [drunknbass_work]
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22:32:29 [ht]
+1 to mjs
22:32:35 [paulc]
ack noahm
22:32:35 [Zakim]
noahm, you wanted to ask whether we don't already have a good resolution
22:32:51 [DanC]
Maciej: I observe the difference in opinion between TimBL and Hixie about whether polyglot documents are valuable/good; I suggest the spec remain neutral on this.
22:33:18 [DanC]
Hixie: yes, text that editorialized on this has been removed... or will/should be
22:33:41 [Bert]
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22:33:57 [tantek]
Noah: perhaps a problem is the use of the phrase "XML document" without hyperlinking it.
22:34:02 [DanC]
Noah: a general suggestion that bears on this case... the term "XML document" is used in a what that's not clear; a hyperlink would likely clarify...
22:34:11 [MikeSmith]
q+ to note that the case of drop-in HTML5 parsers in XML toolchains doesn't work for documents that need to be signed (because we have an XML document signing mechanism but not an HTML document signing mechanism)
22:34:14 [DanC]
... perhaps a parallel effort could audit the spec for hyperlinks to add
22:34:23 [timbl]
22:34:25 [DanC]
q+ TVR
22:34:27 [paulc]
ack hixie
22:34:27 [Zakim]
Hixie, you wanted to mention you need a special outputter anyway to do this
22:35:00 [DanC]
Hixie: in the case where you're outputting an XML document that you want to ship as text/html, you do need a special serialzer; e.g. to avoid <div />
22:35:04 [paulc]
ack ht
22:35:04 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to mention cocoon, XProc, docman tooling in general
22:35:12 [dsinger]
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22:35:17 [annevk]
other examples are <br></br> turning into <br/><br/> at the DOM level
22:35:44 [DanC]
HT: there's a community of practice, esp in document management, that switched to all XML ~4 years ago...
22:35:45 [Philip]
MikeSmith, can't you sign HTML documents exactly like you'd sign any arbitrary stream of bytes?
22:35:52 [annevk]
and <p><table></table></p> becoming <p/><table/><p/> at the DOM level, etc.
22:35:54 [DanC]
... e.g. spec-prod [?]
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22:36:15 [DanC]
HT: we don't use a special serializer; we've just learned to be careful
22:36:24 [paulc]
ack kai
22:36:24 [Zakim]
Kai, you wanted to ask, naively, what this would mean for our XHTML pages, served as text/html, our hundreds of partner companies and basically the whole structure of an XHTML
22:36:26 [DanC]
Hixie: wouldn't it be better for the tools to do that?
22:36:27 [Zakim]
... based world of portals
22:36:28 [timbl]
q+ to mention tidy and to protest against a doubling the toolsets
22:36:31 [DanC]
HT: I don't think so
22:36:38 [DanC]
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22:37:00 [ht]
s/think so/think so, in particular because we want to continue to process the output with generic XML tools/
22:37:02 [tantek]
Kai: all we have is XHTML that we serve as text/html
22:37:23 [paulc]
ack danc
22:37:27 [DanC]
Kai: all we [who?] have is text/html... could someone explain the issue at a high level?
22:37:31 [DanC]
ack me
22:37:38 [paulc]
22:37:43 [rubys]
22:38:06 [ht]
s/[who?]/at Deutsche Telekom/
22:38:33 [annevk]
there is
22:38:34 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki (at
22:38:38 [Lachy]
22:38:53 [Lachy]
q+ to answer DanC's question
22:38:53 [annevk]
mostly written by people outside the polyglot community, but it should be accurate
22:39:02 [annevk]
DanC, ^^
22:39:06 [MikeSmith]
DanC: any volunteers, among in the community of people who want to write polyglot documents, who volunteer to write a document describing how to do this correctly?
22:39:36 [MikeSmith]
karl, URL for your draft about polyglot documents?
22:39:51 [tantek]
Maciej: definition of the sliver matters
22:39:51 [paulc]
22:39:57 [paulc]
22:39:58 [DanC]
Maciej: it's not enough to just match both syntaxes; you have to avoid things that cause unexpected results...
22:40:02 [tantek]
some just say conforming to both syntaxes
22:40:13 [tantek]
others also want same tree (e.g no implied tags)
22:40:13 [Lachy]
DanC, my HTML5 Reference also covers writing polyglot documents. There's a whole section devoted to it.
22:40:35 [DanC]
... so one challenge to [writing this up] is explaining the motivation for it [?]
22:40:42 [DanC]
oh. I guess I forgot that, Lachy
22:40:45 [Lachy]
22:40:50 [timbl]
q+ timbl_ to talk about defining (a) a polyglot set of constrains and (b) the properties they have
22:40:50 [DanC]
Zakim, close the queue
22:40:52 [Zakim]
ok, DanC, the speaker queue is closed
22:41:14 [paulc]
ack Mike
22:41:14 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to note that the case of drop-in HTML5 parsers in XML toolchains doesn't work for documents that need to be signed (because we have an XML document signing
22:41:18 [Zakim]
... mechanism but not an HTML document signing mechanism)
22:41:20 [paulc]
ack tvr
22:41:21 [annevk]
(Pure polyglot fails with the first tag by the way. <html xmlns=...> ends up differently in the DOM.)
22:41:27 [DanC]
MikeSmith: if you're using signed documents, you're not going to be able to [missed; help, Mike?]
22:41:38 [ht]
Without going on the queue, can someone confirm that e.g. <div>Hello world is not legitimately servable as text/html ?
22:41:43 [MikeSmith] <- HTML 5 and XHTML 5 - one vocabulary, two serializations
22:41:44 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 and XHTML 5 - one vocabulary, two serializations (at
22:42:23 [paulc]
ack timbl
22:42:23 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to mention tidy and to protest against a doubling the toolsets
22:42:26 [karl]
MikeSmith, you have been quicker than me
22:42:27 [annevk]
ht, yes, <!doctype html><title></title><div>Hellow world</div> would be needed
22:42:29 [DanC]
TVR: years ago when work on XHTML started, there was an expectation of smooth evolution toward cleaner markup; we can engineer HTML 5 to make it grow or shrink
22:42:35 [paulc]
22:42:36 [noahm]
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22:42:44 [annevk]
ht, you need a DOCTYPE and the title element is also still required
22:42:45 [ht]
Thanks anne, that's fine
22:42:46 [DanC]
Hixie: we're trying to make it grow; with HTML 4, it was empty. HTML 5 makes it significantly larger
22:42:58 [MikeSmith]
s/[missed; help, Mike?]/process them with HTML5 parser frontend on an XML toolchain
22:43:15 [DanC]
TimBL: I use tidy to make XML... making an empty <blockquote /> or <div /> isn't something I do as a matter of course...
22:43:33 [ht]
I was just checking that expected error recovery "doesn't count" as far as legitimate use of the media types is concerned
22:43:34 [MikeSmith]
Larry has arrived
22:43:37 [Lachy]
22:43:39 [DanC]
... and the insertion of <thead> between <table> and <tr> doesn't bother me because I'm not doing scripting/xpaths.
22:44:04 [DanC]
... so for lots of ordinary documents, it [polydocument document] is fine
22:44:37 [DanC]
TimBL: some shops have all sorts of content management with XML doing lots of things, one of which is the web site.
22:45:03 [paulc]
ack rubys
22:45:27 [DanC]
... so I wouldn't want them to have to double their toolset [i.e. adding HTML 5 parsers] just to parse, e.g. HTML descriptions of people in HR systems
22:45:39 [rubys] =>
22:45:40 [pimpbot]
Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at
22:46:05 [paulc]
ack timbl
22:46:05 [Zakim]
timbl_, you wanted to talk about defining (a) a polyglot set of constrains and (b) the properties they have
22:46:12 [Lachy]
22:46:28 [DanC]
SR: with years of practice in this space, it's [remarkably difficult] and the tools I develop show that people [mess it up in an amazing variety of ways]
22:46:35 [pimpbot]
Title: XHTML 1.0: The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second Edition) (at
22:47:49 [DanC]
PaulC: the point about staying neutral makes sense, as does the request for somebody to write up how to write polyglot documents
22:47:56 [Lachy]
22:47:57 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 Reference (at
22:48:08 [DanC]
Lachlan: a draft I'm working on has a section on how to write polyglot documents
22:48:19 [Laura]
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22:49:04 [DanC]
Topic: text/html media type registration and IETF compatibility guidelines
22:49:04 [Julian]
it's related to
22:49:05 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
22:49:09 [DanC]
22:49:15 [MikeSmith]
note that karl's document uses the term "versatile documents" instead of "polyglot documents"
22:49:15 [DanC]
Zakim, open the queue
22:49:15 [Zakim]
ok, DanC, the speaker queue is open
22:49:20 [Julian]
22:49:24 [Lachy]
These documents are also useful for understanding polyglot documents
22:49:24 [DanC]
+1 "versatile"
22:49:26 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML vs. XHTML - WHATWG Wiki (at
22:49:39 [DanC]
PaulC: where are we on this?
22:49:50 [DanC]
SR: lots of discussion; little in the way of concrete proposals
22:49:52 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8209] New: The term "XML document" needs xreffing throughout. <11> 4** [Bug 8208] New: The data-* attributes need to be clearer about their applicability to JS libraries, and in particular should have some suggestions about using unambiguous attribute names like data-dojo-range or data-jq-selector or whatever. <11
22:50:38 [Julian]
22:50:41 [noahm]
FWIW, my comment was that "XML document" was an example of what may be many terms that would benefit from hyperlinks leading to definitions or clarifications.
22:50:47 [DanC]
Mainter: [missed some]... IETF media type guidelines prohibit changing a media type registration so as to invalidate content that was previously valid
22:50:53 [DanC]
22:51:21 [ht]
s/on this/on the text.html media type registration/
22:51:25 [annevk]
22:51:26 [pimpbot]
Title: RFC 4288 - Media Type Specifications and Registration Procedures (at
22:51:46 [annevk]
"When review is required, a change request may be denied if it renders entities that were valid under the previous definition invalid under the new definition"
22:51:47 [DanC]
LMM: When Dan C. and I worked on the text/html media type RFC, we noted practice such as writing to specific implementations, with plugins, etc. ....
22:52:00 [DanC]
... that seems valuable text to keep
22:52:27 [DanC]
LMM: [something about which version of HTML features were introduced in.] This history is useful.
22:52:55 [annevk]
22:53:08 [Hixie]
22:53:20 [Hixie]
22:53:44 [DanC]
LMM: updating a media type registration requires going thru the same process that created the original. [scribe is losing the thread]
22:53:45 [Hixie]
q+ to point to section 1.4
22:54:24 [Julian]
22:54:32 [DanC]
LMM: a document that says "there were these versions of HTML; now there's a new one: HTML 5"
22:54:36 [DanC]
... would be good.
22:55:08 [DanC]
Paul: I hear you saying (a) there's historical material in the text/html media type spec that shouldn't be removed
22:55:14 [DanC]
[scribe missed (b)]
22:55:44 [DanC]
annevk: "When review is required, a change request may be denied if it renders entities that were valid under the previous definition invalid under the new definition" -- RFC 4288
22:56:32 [DanC]
LMM: it's not only that old valid content should stay valid, but that old specifications as a whole are still relevant.
22:56:48 [noahm]
22:56:54 [annevk]
22:57:36 [DanC]
PaulC: so your suggestion is...?
22:57:52 [Hixie]
22:57:55 [Hixie]
Zakim: ack
22:57:58 [annevk]
lets play HTML5 the movie
22:58:00 [DanC]
LMM: I asked that the media type registration be taken out and handled [later? after PR?]
22:58:08 [DanC]
ack Hixie
22:58:08 [Zakim]
Hixie, you wanted to point to section 1.4
22:58:30 [DanC]
Hixie: I think section 1.4 of the current HTML 5 spec subsumes the history from the registration
22:59:22 [pimpbot]
Title: YouTube - HTML5 trailer - Find your Hero (at
22:59:33 [DanC]
TimBL: as Director, I point out that mime type registration should be *inside* the spec, not separate, to prevent inconsistencies.
22:59:40 [DanC]
PaulC: noted.
23:00:08 [DanC]
Topic: Embedding data in HTML Documents
23:00:09 [timbl]
It seems to me that Larry is asking for the MIME-type registration information to include the history of the previous specs. I think that also the spec says that it reckons to be back-compatibl anyway to a large extent. It seems reasonable to put the history in an appendix.
23:00:47 [Julian]
TimBl, the spec does not define things that were valid before, for instance @profile
23:01:07 [DanC]
NM paraphrases "General concern with inclusion of data capabilities ..." from
23:01:08 [pimpbot]
Title: Discussion Topics for HTML / TAG working group meeting at TPAC 2009 (at
23:02:10 [DanC]
for reference:
23:02:13 [DanC]
23:02:13 [trackbot]
ISSUE-53 -- Need to update media type registrations -- RAISED
23:02:13 [trackbot]
23:02:14 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
23:02:41 [DanC]
Lachlan: use case for data-* : it's for data in a document for use by scripts.
23:02:49 [mjs]
23:02:57 [DanC]
NM: does it come in the source? or is it synthesized by scripts?
23:03:05 [DanC]
LH: both... [complicated?]
23:03:14 [paulc]
ack mjs
23:03:38 [DanC]
NM: to what extent do RDFa and data-* overlap?
23:03:48 [Hixie]
q+ to talk about [data-value], not cross-site
23:03:50 [timbl]
timbl+ to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
23:03:55 [DanC]
MJS: they do overlap somewhat, as well as microformats...
23:04:06 [Hixie]
q+ timbl to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
23:04:24 [DanC]
... all these mechanisms provide data for consumption by 3rd parties...
23:04:24 [mduran]
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23:04:56 [DanC]
[script got the above wrong, evidently...]
23:05:00 [Hixie]
23:05:07 [DanC]
MJS: the use case for data-* is for private-use data...
23:05:34 [DanC]
... we found that script libraries made up invalid attributes to store data in...
23:05:44 [DanC]
... so data-* is a way to make that usage conforming.
23:06:10 [DanC]
MJS: but could someone use this to publish data? well, sure, but that's not the intent. <p> can be abused too, of course.
23:06:19 [Hixie]
ack timbl
23:06:19 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
23:06:40 [DanC]
TBL: so let's take FBML as an example... with <fb:my-friends>...
23:07:11 [DanC]
... that's extending the language... it's part of the meaning of the page.
23:07:20 [Lachy]
23:07:29 [DanC]
... they're using script libraries to invent new elements [?]
23:08:25 [DanC]
... it's private in the sense that it's not specified by the HTML spec, but from the point of view of someone using the extended language, they're [ETOOFARBEHIND]
23:08:28 [mjs]
23:08:31 [tantek]
q+ to mention practical experience of microformats FAQ re: use of data-* attributes.
23:08:32 [mjs]
23:08:39 [annevk]
ack Lachy
23:08:46 [DanC]
Hixie: that would be abuse of data-*; other mechanisms serve that use case significantly better
23:09:21 [MikeSmith]
it seems likely that a not-insignificant number of authors will in fact misuse the data-* attributes; at least it seems more likely that authors will misuse data-* attributes than that they will restyle a <p> element to become a list item [Maciej's example]
23:09:35 [paulc]
ack tantek
23:09:35 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to mention practical experience of microformats FAQ re: use of data-* attributes.
23:09:47 [DanC]
Lachy, I missed what you said; help?
23:10:11 [noahm]
If we move on from this question, I think it's useful to agree on whether we have a direction that's likely to lead to consensus. Right now, I
23:10:18 [noahm]
I'm afraid I'm not hearing it.
23:10:28 [DanC]
tantek: after a small amount of initial confusion, the microformats community has learned not to misuse data-*
23:10:41 [noahm]
I hear Hixie et. al. saying "not to be used this way". Tim saying it will.
23:10:45 [Lachy]
I said the difference between data-* and microdata/RDFa/microformats is that the latter provides shared vocabularies with shared semantics, whereas data-* attributes are completely private with no shared semantics
23:11:05 [DanC]
23:11:41 [DanC]
Paul: so I hear "what are the plans for factoring microdata?"
23:12:01 [DanC]
MJS: we have a tracker issue and a change proposal to take it out; next step is a change proposal to keep it in
23:12:11 [DanC]
23:12:11 [trackbot]
ISSUE-76 -- Concerns about Microdata section and inclusion/exclusion of RDFa -- OPEN
23:12:11 [trackbot]
23:12:12 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-76 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
23:13:13 [DanC]
NM: to TAG members, would it suffice to split out the microdata spec?
23:13:26 [DanC]
PC: could you give some argument/rationale for splitting it out?
23:13:33 [DanC]
TimBL: modularity...
23:13:47 [DanC]
... it'll be easier for people to read the smaller bits
23:13:50 [Julian]
23:14:01 [Hixie]
23:14:07 [Hixie]
ack Julian
23:14:25 [DanC]
Julian: a split out spec could still be normatively referenced...
23:14:38 [DanC]
MJS: noone is advocating that
23:14:41 [masinter]
23:14:41 [masinter]
23:14:52 [masinter]
23:15:03 [masinter]
23:16:02 [masinter]
23:16:32 [paulc]
moving on to the URI/IRI/WebAddr item
23:16:33 [DanC]
NM: how about data-*... does the same argument re factoring out apply?
23:16:51 [DanC]
[lack of response...]
23:16:54 [DanC]
DanC: I don't think so
23:17:01 [DanC]
Topic: URI/IRI/WebAddr
23:17:25 [DanC]
NM: I note LMM's change proposal, acknowledged in the HTML WG bug tracker
23:18:30 [DanC]
LMM: the technical issue I'm persuing is: does what browsers use for URLs match what other applications use? ...
23:18:56 [DanC]
... if they don't match, [something about normative references; help?]
23:19:05 [DanC]
PC: is the intent in HTML 5 that they match?
23:19:22 [DanC]
Hixie: [carefully worded answer; help?] they're designed to be a superset. [?]
23:20:05 [DanC]
PC: [some question that prompted LMM to answer...]
23:20:28 [DanC]
LMM: I think I answered that in my msg [www-tag/2009Nov/0005] ...
23:20:56 [DanC]
... we're trying to set up some confidence about the future; if we charter an IETF WG to meet some requirements, [ETOOFAST]
23:21:13 [MikeSmith]
q+ to suggest that we meet at least until 3:45, given that a number of use showed up about 15 minutes late
23:21:17 [DanC]
... I'd like to treat those [design differences between HTML 5 and IRIBIS?] as bugs...
23:21:32 [DanC]
LMM: you can't deadlock one behind the other [?]
23:22:45 [MikeSmith]
TimBL had to leave
23:22:52 [Hixie]
IH: HTML5's definition of URL was intended to be a superset of IRI, and its definition of "valud URL" was intended to be exactly equivalent to the definition of IRI where their processing would be equivalent
23:23:23 [DanC]
"To what extent is Web Address being moved into IRI-bis?"
23:23:26 [DanC]
PC: it's in progress
23:23:43 [DanC]
"is the timeline for IRI work consistent with the timeline for HTML 5?"
23:24:34 [DanC]
MJS: eventually, yes, IRIBIS has to be done before HTML5 goes to REC...
23:25:00 [DanC]
... but we can make a lot of orthogonal progress on HTML 5 before then.
23:25:18 [DanC]
"Are there pieces that need to stay in HTML 5?"
23:25:34 [DanC]
[what I heard was: we hope not.]
23:25:50 [DanC]
PC: we'll find out
23:26:04 [DanC]
IH: yes, we'll figure out the boundary at some time.
23:26:20 [DanC]
LMM: I'm happy for the HTML WG issue to be closed and the remainder to be handled as bugs
23:26:28 [timbl]
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23:27:21 [mjs]
scribe mjs
23:27:26 [mjs]
Scribe: mjs
23:27:45 [Hixie]
ScribeNick: mjs
23:28:00 [mjs]
Topic: Language Reference / Authoring Spec
23:28:15 [DanC]
q+ to swap Lachlan's document back in
23:28:21 [MikeSmith]
23:28:29 [mjs]
NM: I think having a good spec to a language is important
23:28:53 [mjs]
NM: the authoring spec is better than my worst fears
23:29:13 [mjs]
NM: not sure this is the best we could do, compared to something handwritten
23:29:39 [mjs]
NM: will this be a major deliverable with close review?
23:29:52 [mjs]
IH: first - there are two other documents we have being developed
23:30:04 [mjs]
IH: Lachlan's informative author's reference
23:30:11 [MikeSmith]
my draft is at
23:30:12 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5: The Markup Language (at
23:30:18 [mjs]
IH: Mike's markup spec draft
23:30:19 [noahm]
23:30:25 [noahm]
23:30:26 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 Reference (at
23:30:38 [noahm]
Hixie's authoring version:
23:30:40 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML5 (at
23:30:45 [mjs]
IH: as far as my document - I haven't done as much quality assurance on the authoring annotations
23:30:50 [tantek]
DanC - the authoring specs have been very useful to those not familiar with reading typical W3C spec-ese.
23:31:00 [tantek]
(in my experience in talking/working with web designers)
23:31:06 [mjs]
IH: there has been some (Philip and I have both spotted errors)
23:31:30 [DanC]
tantek, have you looked at the authoring view that hixie has come up with?
23:31:44 [mjs]
NM: what I'm hearing is that you are treating this deliverable seriously, whether or not it meets my taste
23:31:47 [DanC]
do you know if others in the design community like it?
23:31:59 [tantek]
BTW re: data-* attributes and microformats community understanding - here is the URL we send folks that seems to convince them to avoid data-* for data interchange:
23:32:01 [pimpbot]
Title: html5 Microformats Wiki (at
23:32:05 [mjs]
IH: one of the things I'm not sure of is who the target audience is
23:32:17 [tantek]
Zakim, status
23:32:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'status', tantek
23:32:36 [mjs]
IH: I don't know of people who would are at high enough level to understand the spec, but aren't familiar with browsers
23:32:48 [BryanSullivan]
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23:32:53 [tantek]
ack Hixie
23:33:22 [MikeSmith]
a static view of the author view of the spec is at
23:33:23 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML5 (at
23:33:35 [mjs]
NM: one thing I noticed is many UA requirements are imperative, are there a lot of cases where that remains in the author view, or is it more declarative?
23:33:40 [DanC]
I haven't updated that for a while, MikeSmith ; have you?
23:33:44 [mjs]
IH: fixed some cases of that, continuing to improve it
23:33:52 [mjs]
NM: thanks for the status report. let's open this up
23:33:58 [MikeSmith]
DanC: it's automatically updated each time Hixie commits a change
23:34:31 [mjs]
HT: Henry was concerned that you couldn't create a good authoring spec from the current spec without adding more material
23:34:39 [DanC]
ok; thanks, Mike
23:34:39 [mjs]
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23:34:52 [mjs]
PC: It sounds like you *have* added some material in the process, and are willing to add more
23:34:52 [MikeSmith]
23:35:17 [mjs]
PC: it sounds like we should feed that back to Henry and ask him to state what's missing
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23:36:04 [Hixie]
q+ duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
23:36:10 [Hixie]
q+ to say duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
23:36:16 [mjs]
DC: are you closer to done on the authoring guide?
23:36:18 [Hixie]
ack DanC
23:36:18 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to swap Lachlan's document back in
23:36:26 [mjs]
LH: there's lots of stuff, but much more is needed
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23:36:49 [BryanSullivan]
23:37:11 [mjs]
PC: I've had many people approach me saying they could use a spec like this for software that generates HTML, and is not a browser
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23:37:35 [mjs]
NM: maybe more BNF
23:37:55 [mjs]
IH: there is more BNF. I think this audience is somewhat different than what I have been targeting
23:37:59 [annevk]
should we change the media types slot now it has already been dealt with here?
23:38:09 [masinter]
q+ about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
23:38:18 [mjs]
IH: on second thought, maybe emitting HTML does
23:38:23 [masinter]
q+ to ask about about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
23:38:28 [Hixie]
ack Hixie
23:38:28 [Zakim]
Hixie, you wanted to say duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
23:38:29 [mjs]
IH: but to validate you need parts of both
23:38:34 [paulc]
ack hixie
23:38:46 [mjs]
annevk, perhaps we should - not sure there is more to discuss about it
23:38:49 [MikeSmith]
q+ to respond
23:39:26 [mjs]
IH: I don't think that we as a working group should publish two documents that both claim to be normative for the same thing
23:39:28 [paulc]
ack bryan
23:39:40 [DanC]
(I disagree with Hixie on the "multiple normative documents" issue. I've done it successfully in OWL, SPARQL, and GRDDL)
23:39:57 [mjs]
BS: we view it very favorably, our product plans for HTML5 will benefit
23:40:10 [BryanSullivan]
23:40:27 [DanC]
(but those were quite orthogonal; i.e. spec and test-suite-document)
23:40:55 [mjs]
LM: one thing that's important for creators of documents that use scripting is the programmer view of the API as opposed to the implementor view
23:40:56 [Hixie]
BryanSullivan: radio buttons are at the top right of
23:40:59 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML5 (at
23:41:04 [mjs]
LM: example: image width
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23:41:33 [DanC]
what was the "it" that Bryan was referring to?
23:41:39 [mjs]
LM: explained implementation details, was not so clear for someone trying to use the API rather than implement it
23:42:08 [annevk]
silvia, maybe you should make it another video slot :)
23:42:16 [mjs]
DanC, he didn't exactly specify but I assume BryanSullivan was referring to the authoring-focused specs
23:42:29 [BryanSullivan]
23:42:29 [DanC]
23:42:44 [BryanSullivan]
But the guidance is appreciated
23:43:18 [DanC]
the TAG isn't of one mind on this.
23:43:22 [DanC]
non-normative is fine for me.
23:43:28 [annevk]
(having said that, it seems like I'll attend the bit on caching)
23:43:29 [mjs]
MS: I want to propose an action for the TAG: would it be acceptable to produce a language reference as a non-normative document?
23:44:15 [mjs]
NM: to ask for clarification, which document do you mean?
23:44:35 [mjs]
MS: I mean if there's a document that is not a view in the spec, just a definition of a conforming document
23:44:48 [mjs]
NM: I will put any proposal before the TAG that you can describe
23:45:04 [DanC]
I think of Mike's document as "a schema-based description of HTML 5" and I'd be happy to see it published non-normatively.
23:45:27 [mjs]
MS: specifically I mean my H:TML document, aimed at producers only
23:46:21 [mjs]
NM: for me personally, that's ok, and I'm willing to put that before the TAG
23:46:47 [Kai]
If the difference between these two documents is so subtle, it probably is not such a good idea. If it can be made clear what the diff is, then yes.
23:47:08 [mjs]
SR: would be useful to have the input because then we can decouple and execute
23:47:37 [hober]
I'm all for MikeSmith's document being published non-normatively. Mike, have you changed your mind since ?
23:47:43 [pimpbot]
Title: IRC logs: w3c / #html-wg / 20081118 (at
23:48:05 [MikeSmith]
hober: I change my mind all the time
23:48:15 [hober]
23:48:19 [MikeSmith]
s/hober: /hober,
23:48:24 [mjs]
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00:10:39 [MikeSmith]
Topic: Caching
00:10:44 [MikeSmith]
scribe: MikeSmith
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00:11:19 [MikeSmith]
URL for Nikunj's slides?
00:12:00 [annevk]
00:12:02 [pimpbot]
Title: Invisible Pink Unicorn (at
00:12:10 [MikeSmith]
Nikunj walks us through his slides
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00:12:28 [BryanSullivan]
00:12:29 [MikeSmith]
slide - Desired Offline Data Features
00:12:45 [MikeSmith]
00:12:53 [MikeSmith]
ack masinter
00:12:53 [Zakim]
masinter, you wanted to ask about about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
00:12:56 [MikeSmith]
ask MikeSmith
00:13:05 [MikeSmith]
BryanSullivan: is the datacache on the device?
00:13:12 [MikeSmith]
Nikunj: yes
00:13:18 [BryanSullivan]
00:13:27 [MikeSmith]
tlr: could just be the HTTP cache on the UA?
00:13:46 [Julian]
00:13:59 [BryanSullivan]
00:14:09 [MikeSmith]
Nikunj: the key part is that the cache can be controlled programatically
00:14:16 [MikeSmith]
ack MikeSmith
00:14:16 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to respond
00:14:18 [MikeSmith]
ack BryanSullivan
00:14:23 [BryanSullivan]
00:14:31 [MikeSmith]
BryanSullivan: so you want to make it transparent as possible?
00:14:53 [MikeSmith]
Nikunj: Yes, to make it seamless
00:15:21 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: how's that different from normal HTTP cache or offline-apps ApplicationCache mechanism?
00:15:39 [Lachy]
MikeSmith, huh?
00:16:05 [Lachy]
MikeSmith, I didn't say that
00:16:14 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: feel free to fix it
00:16:19 [Lachy]
I don't know who said it
00:16:41 [MikeSmith]
s/Lachy: /???: /
00:16:47 [Lachy]
s/Lachy: how/??: how/
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00:17:43 [MikeSmith]
NM: [discusses use case of off-line photo album]
00:17:57 [MikeSmith]
NM: efficiency of updates is a concern
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00:18:28 [MikeSmith]
NM: [explains HTML5 ApplicationCache]
00:18:39 [MikeSmith]
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00:18:57 [MikeSmith]
BryanSullivan: is the datacache going to act like a local server?
00:19:15 [MikeSmith]
... or not really
00:19:49 [MikeSmith]
BryanSullivan: so you want controlled cache lifetime
00:19:53 [MikeSmith]
... application control
00:20:17 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8210] New: Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <11>
00:20:53 [MikeSmith]
cardona507: is there a spec'ed limit on the size of an HTML5 application cache?
00:21:20 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: no, [because the practical limit is device-dependent]
00:21:42 [MikeSmith]
NM: [discusses off-line attachments use case]
00:22:51 [MikeSmith]
NM: [discusses use case of offline data format conversion]
00:23:04 [eric_carlson]
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00:25:09 [MikeSmith]
NM: [use case of blog client]
00:25:23 [tantek]
regarding the Off-line data format conversaion use case of converting to iCal - I know a few things about that ;)
00:26:02 [tantek]
e.g. will convert pages with hCalendar to iCal format so that the events can be added to a native calendar application.
00:26:03 [pimpbot]
Title: H2VX: hCalendar to iCalendar (at
00:26:33 [BryanSullivan]
00:26:50 [tantek]
also, in Firefox, it has already parsed the hCalendars on the page, so you could have a javascript: hyperlink extract that information from the DOM and redirect to a data: URL of type text/calendar with the iCal data inline.
00:27:00 [Bert]
(I think the name of the proposal is wrong. It's not a cache, it's data replication.)
00:27:39 [Julian]
it would be a proxy that allows offline work
00:27:44 [tantek]
Bert, I think cache is correct because he is implying ephemeral expectation of data availability, rather than reliable replication
00:28:23 [MikeSmith]
BryanSullivan: so you are saying, "I am programatically queuing up data that will be sent to the server once you get back online?"
00:28:53 [BryanSullivan]
00:29:34 [MikeSmith]
Julian: I have a problem understanding how that will work in practice [for particular cases]
00:29:40 [tantek]
q+ to mention that Firefox + Operator solves the offline iCal format generation problem.
00:30:18 [MikeSmith]
NM: what URI gets minted is up to the application
00:30:59 [MikeSmith]
NM: [use case of co-existence and error recovery]
00:31:43 [MikeSmith]
NM: you want the user to be alerted _before_ the sync cycle is complete
00:33:00 [MikeSmith]
NM: reporting errors earlier reduces the problems with recovery
00:34:16 [tlr]
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00:35:06 [MikeSmith]
NM: [discussing offline authorization use case]
00:36:48 [MikeSmith]
NM: DataCache API spec is in FPWD in WebApps WG
00:37:18 [MikeSmith]
00:37:19 [pimpbot]
Title: DataCache API (at
00:37:30 [Hixie]
00:37:39 [MikeSmith]
ack tantek
00:37:39 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to mention that Firefox + Operator solves the offline iCal format generation problem.
00:38:03 [MikeSmith]
tantek: in practice this is one in a couple different ways
00:38:26 [MikeSmith]
... client-side plugin is one -- like Firefox Operator extension
00:38:38 [MikeSmith]
... other way is to do is on the server side
00:40:40 [MikeSmith]
tantek: so how is this proposal better than existing mechanisms [that already address these use cases]
00:43:11 [MikeSmith]
NM: effectively you can think of it as a portable local server that can respond to network requests
00:43:25 [MikeSmith]
tantek: so it's like Opera Unite?
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00:45:11 [MikeSmith]
annevk: this is in the context of the Web application, whereas Opera Unite is a user-controlled mechanism
00:47:34 [MikeSmith]
NM: it is possible to bypass the datacache, by the user.. and possible to bypass by XHR
00:47:40 [Hixie]
ack Hixie
00:47:50 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: I agree with all the use cases
00:48:12 [MikeSmith]
... and Google has many more use cases [for client-side caching]
00:48:52 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: I think it fits pretty well with ApplicationCache, but I think it's too early to consider adding this [DataCache] to the platform
00:50:04 [MikeSmith]
i/it is possible/cardona507: [asked if there was a similar network and fallback mechanism similar to appcache: NM responded, Not currently]
00:50:34 [MikeSmith]
mjs: I agree with Hixie that we should be careful about how to stage the addition of new features
00:50:46 [MikeSmith]
... AppCache has been shipping for more than a year
00:50:53 [MikeSmith]
... people are building businesses around it
00:51:12 [MikeSmith]
... and building serious stuff on top of it
00:51:39 [MikeSmith]
mjs: I would like to see two solid implementations of AppCache that we can demonstrate are interoperable
00:52:26 [MikeSmith]
... then look at the pain points that developers who are using AppCache have run into [and consider adding additional features to address those]
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00:53:06 [MikeSmith]
annevk: [discusses a case of how to handle a page with an image that gets removed from the cache]
00:53:37 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: yeah, it's not yet bug-free.. which is why I worry about [putting new features into it now]
00:54:49 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: [points out that existence of a draft spec can sometimes cause features to get implemented prematurely]
00:55:40 [MikeSmith]
mjs: some features are of the kind where implementing the first 80% is pretty straightforward to implement, but last 20% is much more problematic
00:56:14 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
00:56:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
00:56:17 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
00:58:36 [MikeSmith]
[Nikunj completes his presentation ]
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bugmail: [Bug 8211] New: HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't part of the entity name, and there wasn't a variation that some names don't have ";". If this is an example of error recovery, valid HTML should require the ;. <11>
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RRSAgent, make minutes
01:37:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
01:37:58 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
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01:50:39 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8212] New: gggfgfgfgfgfgfg <11> 4** [Bug 8210] Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <11> 4** [Bug 8211] HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't part of the entity name, and there wasn't a variation that s
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07:07:34 [hsivonen]
was it pointed out to the TAG that "XML document" in HTML5 means a tree while in XML 1.0 it means a stream?
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07:44:28 [mjs]
hsivonen: their complaint was that the term "XML document" was not linked to a definition, so I'm not sure citing different definitions would have helped
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11:53:07 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8212] gggfgfgfgfgfgfg <11> 4** [Bug 8216] New: editorial: Hide "The name must be one that is terminated by a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;)." and relevant rows in the entity table from the author view. [sp] <11> 4** [Bug 8211] HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't par
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15:23:58 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8218] New: No, this algorithm cannot be aborted, as there are no synchronous events from which to call load() <11>
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16:28:56 [pimpbot]
Title: Welcome to Google Docs (at
16:29:02 [Hixie]
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16:51:39 [MikeSmith]
does anybody recall who proposed the RDFa and Microdata session?
16:51:54 [MikeSmith]
we need somebody to chair the session
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17:00:23 [brutzman]
X3D slides (in wiki form) available at
17:00:25 [pimpbot]
Title: X3D and HTML5 Summary - (at
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17:05:45 [cardona507]
good morning everyone
17:05:50 [brutzman]
X3D slides (in wiki form) available at
17:05:53 [pimpbot]
Title: X3D and HTML5 Summary - (at
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17:09:01 [paulc]
Handing out Web3D DVDs
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17:20:45 [Kai]
+1 to mjs
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17:21:28 [annevk]
Kai, we're using #html-wg2 ;-)
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17:24:29 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8210] Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <11>
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17:55:13 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:55:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
17:55:14 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
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17:59:14 [timeless_mbp]
ACTION: Kai to document use cases *ON A WEB PAGE*, or you talk to Ivan and request that he document the use cases on a web page
17:59:14 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Kai
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18:01:08 [PIon] X3D for Developers Page
18:01:10 [pimpbot]
Title: X3D for Developers (at
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video talks on #video now
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18:14:57 [Travis]
scribe: Travis
18:15:01 [Travis]
scribeNick: Travis
18:15:30 [Travis]
JN: [presents tentative TC39 agenda]
18:16:24 [Travis]
weinig: Brief overview of WebIDL
18:16:46 [dmcallis]
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18:16:53 [Travis]
... Intent of WebIDL is to give unitified place for DOM + other specs a JavaScript binding.
18:17:01 [Travis]
... want to give it as much clarity as possible
18:17:14 [Travis]
... vs. previous IDLs which were more ambiguous
18:17:23 [Travis]
... now it defines how prototypes interact...
18:17:41 [Travis]
... getter/setters for collections (not same as accessors)
18:17:58 [Travis]
... extra property semantics (e.g., [Replacable])
18:18:12 [Travis]
... would like to take it to Last Call ASAP, but understand there are more concerns.
18:18:27 [Travis]
MJS: discussed webidl in the WebApps WG meeting earlier this week.
18:18:35 [tross]
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18:18:46 [Travis]
... decided to first move existing semantics over to ES5 semantics.
18:19:23 [Travis]
AWB: Some TC39 concerns with current draft: ES binding is not what is classicly considered a language binding.
18:19:27 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:19:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
18:19:28 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at
18:19:38 [Travis]
MJS: maps to host object extensibilily
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18:20:00 [Travis]
AWB: could be interpreted as colliding with ES language definitions.
18:20:19 [Travis]
weinig: Also key idea is to define what behaviors allready exist in browsers
18:20:40 [Travis]
MM: TC39 understands that for things that already exist we do need a formalism for these things...
18:21:12 [Travis]
... TC39 has been trying to narrow the gab between host objects and native objects.
18:21:25 [rubys]
18:21:46 [Travis]
... HTML5 has used the WebIDL spec to spec things that are in the gab. Many of these things are considered bad practice (name getters)
18:22:04 [Travis]
... Would like to have design contraints to see what should be avoided in future specs.
18:22:54 [Travis]
weinig: Discussed earlier this week, and decided to split out some of these "bad practices" into different parts of the spec (or make them clear)
18:23:21 [Travis]
AWB: Ideally, useful features that are host object extensions should come back into the native language.
18:24:02 [Travis]
MJS: Goal at a high level is to ultimately converge. By extending ECMAScript on one hand, and carefully control what behaviors are availble in new specs (and what shouldn't be used).
18:24:28 [Travis]
... WebIDL can be the bridge to what is considered appropriate.
18:24:43 [Travis]
paulc: Coming back to building an agenda.
18:26:45 [Travis]
MJS: Would like to add topic on Binary data and pushing it into core ECMAScript.
18:28:36 [weinig]
annevk: you have a proposal?
18:28:52 [annevk]
mjs has :)
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18:30:09 [weinig]
annevk: oh, you meant, "•annevk wants His binary data proposal"
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18:32:09 [Travis]
paulc: Last call on the agenda?
18:32:39 [annevk]
weinig, no, I just want to have an object in ECMAScript so I can use it :)
18:33:03 [annevk]
responseData (or whatever) on XHR
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18:34:42 [Travis]
Topic: WebIDL (10 min)
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18:35:13 [Travis]
paulc: Was some agreement on trying to mark the features that are not well liked...
18:35:37 [Travis]
... Not wanting to use the word "deprecated". Call for discussion.
18:36:32 [Travis]
MM: Came up with a four-part classification for "to be avoided"
18:36:50 [Travis]
paulc: Four classes for all features or just the ones we don't like.
18:37:15 [Travis]
MM: Four categtories to mark all features (like, not like 1-3)
18:37:43 [Travis]
MJS: Possible dimensions:is this a legacy feature not recommended
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18:38:44 [Travis]
... May be features in WebIDL that are highly experimental
18:38:52 [Travis]
AWB: List is: (5 items)
18:38:55 [Travis]
... "Good parts"
18:39:03 [Travis]
... "De Jour for legacy support"
18:39:16 [Travis]
... "Deprecated" (like last one, but expectation of future removal)
18:40:16 [Travis]
... "ES5's appendix B (normative (if you implement, it must be implemented as such))
18:40:31 [Travis]
... "Things considered, but rejected and why?"
18:40:45 [Travis]
MJS: Think it's worth documenting but not in WebIDL
18:41:00 [Travis]
paulc: I call this "out of scope"
18:41:17 [Travis]
AWB: I like "rejected" from IDL.
18:41:41 [Travis]
paulc: "rejected" category does not apply to anything in the WebIDL right now?
18:42:04 [Travis]
MM: If there is some feature in the current WebIDL, by inspection, we could mark such a feature right now.
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18:42:39 [Travis]
AWB: Also, something in one browser but not all, that thing might be considered in WebIDL, but was rejected even though it had an implementation.
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18:43:01 [Travis]
paulc: Have we applied the 5 category taxonomy to the current WebIDL?
18:43:07 [Travis]
AWB: Not yet.
18:43:32 [Travis]
MJS: Might be more useful to wait to do this until after we've recast the current WebIDL spec into ES5 parlance.
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18:44:09 [Travis]
MJS: I think distinction between "Requred for legacy" and "Deprecated" is not really sufficiently different.
18:44:51 [Travis]
paulc: Agreement on 1) recast in ES5, then 2) apply taxonomy.
18:45:06 [Travis]
MM: Let's not be too ridgid about it.. but we should get both of them done.
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18:46:10 [Travis]
JO: Are there questions about what the semantics should be (currently are using internal hooks to ES specs)
18:46:24 [Travis]
... May want to get agreement in this room?
18:46:27 [Travis]
BE: Use the list
18:47:56 [Travis]
paulc: [recap main points]
18:48:19 [Travis]
MM: Was a recent shift in WebIDL where some things moved from annotations into the main grammar
18:48:46 [Travis]
... Was intended [the grammer] to be the language independent semantics; yet some of those things didn't actually apply to Java...
18:49:01 [Travis]
... Should be careful to make the syntax more language independent
18:49:48 [Travis]
MJS: Design Principle: Language independent should be in the core syntax, other things should be extended attributes.
18:49:55 [Travis]
... does this make sense Sam?
18:50:17 [Travis]
weinig: It can be fuzzy depending on the language (some have getter/setters, other don't)
18:50:47 [Travis]
Topic: Binary data in ECMAScript (15 min)
18:51:02 [Travis]
MJS: Goes to the sketchpad
18:51:25 [Travis]
... Design goals were influenced by Web APIs that would like to use binary data.
18:51:34 [Travis]
... In one case the UA has data in an internal buffer
18:51:50 [Travis]
... Would like to achieve cross-thread transfer of data.
18:52:14 [Travis]
... Approaches both point to having an immutable data store (makes it easy to transfer handles safely without copying data)
18:52:30 [Travis]
... Some mutable tricks are possible but not necessarily thread-safe or performant.
18:52:38 [Travis]
JO: Examples?
18:53:09 [Travis]
MJS: XHR to retrieve binary data.
18:53:23 [Travis]
... Would be nice to have a shared buffer
18:53:54 [Travis]
WH: What is needed over and above strings?
18:54:05 [Travis]
MJS: 1st point: lack of conceptual clarity
18:54:16 [Travis]
... Binary data is a byte, others are unicode chars
18:54:18 [tlr]
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18:54:30 [Travis]
... Would be nice to not have to raise that question.
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18:54:48 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8220] New: Remove microdata <11>
18:54:51 [Travis]
... Also, not having to use a 16 bit sequence to represent octet data.
18:55:18 [Travis]
... Also ability to get immutable data out.
18:55:49 [Travis]
... to base64 encode could be hard [clarification needed]
18:56:20 [Travis]
... Other design point in my proposal was to get to the bare-minimum set of functionality
18:56:37 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:56:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
18:56:38 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at
18:56:47 [Travis]
... Didn't want to have a cumbersome interface (e.g., with transcoding, hash computations, base64 encoding)
18:57:01 [Travis]
... Would like to leave that stuff out because we don't know what's needed yet.
18:57:11 [tH]
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18:57:16 [dmcallis]
is there a pointer to this oft-mentioned proposal?
18:57:20 [Travis]
WH: I see base64 encoding as necessary.
18:57:48 [Travis]
AWB: I like what you're suggesting--providing the right primitives and allowing libraries to extend.
18:58:04 [Travis]
MJS: Most primitive conversion would be toUTF16 and back.
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18:58:43 [Travis]
MM: First rollout would allow libraries to use, then see what libraries find useful then roll those things back into the standard.
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18:59:08 [Travis]
WH: Must be careful--providing the wrong set of primitives could lead to bad performance problems...
18:59:53 [Travis]
MJS: Given three design proposals, what problems are left (that I see)?
19:00:04 [Travis]
... Choosing the name (not trivial)
19:00:30 [Travis]
... want to stay away from names that include the specific underlying data store...
19:01:16 [Travis]
MJS: If you think of these as a sequences, they are octet sequences (bytes)
19:01:39 [Travis]
AWB: Some scenarios may consider these 16-bit floats, other as larger sets.
19:02:20 [Travis]
OH: focus has been mostly on String/Binary
19:02:33 [Travis]
... WebGL defines byte array, int array, etc.
19:03:07 [Travis]
... Without the underlying data store, you have to use strings to transfer the data around.
19:03:21 [Travis]
MJS: Second issue: Immutable vs. Mutable.
19:03:29 [Travis]
... Done via freeze() or via two types?
19:03:54 [Travis]
... preference is to have two types. Should have continued discussion on the list.
19:04:05 [Travis]
... Final issue, what operations are built in?
19:04:36 [Travis]
... Byte level read/write, read (immutable), memcopy
19:04:50 [Travis]
... Also see character transcoding, etc. that may be part of the initial set.
19:05:03 [Travis]
... Would like to be more strict in the initial release.
19:05:13 [Travis]
WH: How would equality work?
19:05:36 [tlr]
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19:06:16 [Travis]
MM: Equality--are these primitive types or object types?
19:06:53 [Travis]
... If the data object is more like the string object, then it should be a value object (than a primitive type)
19:07:17 [Travis]
paulc: [moving on to next topic]
19:07:38 [Travis]
Topic: ECMAScript preventExtensions() and DOM objects
19:07:46 [Travis]
OH: Brought up on the list before.
19:07:59 [Travis]
... DOM objects should not support this.
19:08:20 [Travis]
... If they do not support it, then they "cannot" support it (no partial support)
19:08:58 [Travis]
MJS: Soley from a WebIDL interface, could mark it as supporting (or not) prevent extensions.
19:09:35 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
19:09:36 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:09:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
19:09:37 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at
19:10:30 [fantasai]
?: We're not talking just about preventExtension, we're also talking about (?)
19:10:39 [fantasai]
?: readonly doesn't imply immutable. The host can change it
19:10:59 [annevk]
s/?/Mark Miller/
19:11:14 [fantasai]
??: On the readonly question, in my rough translation of WebIDL to ECMASCRIPT5, most of the DOM properites become accessors sot hat the changeability of the underlying data ...
19:11:43 [fantasai]
??: on principle, I would really rather see a clearly defined way to preventExtensions work across all ... and not restrict it to [?]
19:11:53 [fantasai]
??: Web developers expect to see a consistent view of the world
19:11:57 [annevk]
s/??/Travis L/
19:12:12 [fantasai]
MJS: You would have to have ECMASCRIPT objects prevent state changes completely unrelated to ECMASCRIPT
19:12:22 [annevk]
s/??/Travis L/
19:12:27 [fantasai]
???: We would .. preventExtensions and prevent Freeze
19:12:32 [fantasai]
Paul interrupts
19:12:45 [rubys]
19:12:49 [fantasai]
JasonO: I agre that it's better to have a language semantics that applies to all objects in the lang
19:13:03 [fantasai]
JasonO: I think it's possible, and the ECMAScript committee should take that on. DOM is one of our major usecases
19:13:29 [fantasai]
JasonO: Freeze on an object may not prevent new prop from appearing on the obj, but it certainly can apply to properties added by script
19:13:54 [dsinger]
19:14:12 [fantasai]
Waldemar: Part of what's freeze and friends do in ECMAScript is they ... which it throws, you can cache it. And you can do security analysis on it, if these things can change .. breaks
19:14:16 [annevk]
dsinger, wrong room?
19:14:37 [fantasai]
Waldemar: We have additional issue swe have other issue.s For getters and setters ... what do these do if you call them something else ... consciously say that's not part fo the spec
19:15:05 [fantasai]
Jason: I disagree that freeze by itself provides these invariants.
19:15:25 [fantasai]
Jason: The ES5 spec says what freeze does. DOesn't say that there's an end-to-end variant that freeze causes to be true
19:15:28 [fantasai]
19:15:34 [fantasai]
Jason: prototype vs itself
19:16:02 [fantasai]
Jason: Given stat eo fDOM right now, calling reeze on dom obj, even if you call recusrsively on prot chain, it's not well-define
19:16:11 [fantasai]
?: It's well defined what the invariants are
19:16:20 [annevk]
s/?/Mark Miller/
19:16:35 [fantasai]
Jason: The behavior of getters and setters can depend on mutable state that's not visible anywhere else except on the object.
19:16:54 [fantasai]
Jason: Calling it freeze if you don't know the impl of the getters and setters isn't predictable
19:16:59 [fantasai]
MJS: ...
19:17:26 [fantasai]
Waldemar: Freeze freezes the object. If an obj has getters and setters .. API. There asre still objects that can return different things
19:17:31 [fantasai]
Waldemar: this is a non-issue
19:17:45 [fantasai]
somebody says something
19:18:00 [fantasai]
??: The getter itself is the only thing that's guaranteed to be constant
19:18:16 [Travis]
19:18:18 [fantasai]
Mark: ... the local properties are unchanging
19:18:42 [fantasai]
Mark: If the obj has getter bhavior that it chooses to describe as data behavior, it has the choice of either frezing its describe its bheavior or rejecting the attempt to freeze
19:18:54 [fantasai]
Mark: If it accepts the attempt to freeze, then it can't describe as data prop
19:19:07 [fantasai]
Jason: I object that freeze freezes the state of the obj in a very general sense
19:19:23 [fantasai]
Allan: My inter of your points is that you're copying at different levels of abstraction
19:19:57 [fantasai]
Allan: It's about the meta state
19:19:59 [fantasai]
19:20:08 [rubys]
s/Allan/Allen Wirfs-Brock/
19:20:11 [fantasai]
??: If I have a nodelist w/ a linked property
19:20:22 [fantasai]
??: do I represent it as .. that's writeable, or do I expose as a getter
19:20:36 [fantasai]
?? ... guarantee quality of that getter.. may vary from one obj to another
19:20:52 [fantasai]
Allan: I think that q falls into domain of ES binding. That's the decision you make when defining a lang binding
19:21:04 [fantasai]
Allen: Do all prop with these charactersics behave this way
19:21:06 [annevk]
19:21:20 [fantasai]
Brendan: Do you have a problem with trying to propose a freeze that ... or .......
19:21:23 [fantasai]
19:21:45 [fantasai]
?: My op is that we take on the effort of ...
19:21:45 [drunknbass_work]
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19:21:56 [fantasai]
Brendan: Need to spec that if you freeze what happens
19:22:02 [fantasai]
Brendan: .. netapi tells you about DOM properties
19:22:08 [fantasai]
?: I think that spec goes to web apps
19:22:18 [fantasai]
?: I believe those issues have to be addressed in the conversion
19:22:31 [fantasai]
?: I am satisfied with teh discussion
19:22:41 [Travis]
19:23:01 [rubys]
19:23:16 [fantasai]
??: By defining how attributes in general work, whether they rep getter on the obj itself or on the prototype is something that's going to be intrinsic in converting to ES5. That concept wasn't in ES3, couldn't be desc in ES3. Once we have that tool we'll have a better understanding of interaction with these meta-apis wil lbe
19:23:22 [Julian]
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19:23:33 [fantasai]
??: Without this new desc ,.. part of defining new desc will be talking with browser impl about ..
19:23:40 [annevk]
19:23:43 [fantasai]
??: There may be downsides to impl attributes as getters and setters
19:23:50 [annevk]
19:23:52 [fantasai]
Paul: Seem to have anchored plan w/ webidl
19:24:05 [Travis]
scribe: Travis
19:24:12 [Travis]
scribeNick: Travis
19:24:35 [Travis]
Topic: Differences in Policy
19:25:15 [Travis]
JN: Secretary Genearl of ECMAScript should sit down with W3C contact and work out issues in IPR, other legal issues.
19:25:25 [Travis]
JN: These are way outside of my pay grade.
19:25:49 [Travis]
... We wanted to point out that we have these issues before we work really closely.
19:26:06 [Travis]
paulc: Are there any issues going on today that are upsetting?
19:26:20 [Travis]
JN: No, no joint ventures today.
19:26:34 [jorendorff]
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19:26:38 [Travis]
paulc: We do work, throw it over the fence, and this seems to work for now.
19:26:50 [Travis]
AWB: Hasn't necessary been the working model up until today.
19:27:06 [Travis]
... In the past there was little to no communication between our groups.
19:27:31 [Travis]
paulc: Web developer expects to have symmetry
19:27:49 [Travis]
AWB: Many of us are associated with both affiliations (TC39/W3C)
19:28:18 [Travis]
PL: Thanks TC39 for accepting our invitiation to join.
19:28:28 [rubys]
19:29:01 [Travis]
... We are a technical organization. We can hand off any/all documents needed (e.g., IPR)
19:29:38 [Travis]
IS: One of the issues is the IPR policy. W3C IPR policy is very well known. Also should be royalty-free.
19:30:01 [Travis]
... ECMAScript has current IPR policy--will be gettting a new one very much the same as the old.
19:30:30 [Travis]
... going to royalty free.
19:30:52 [Travis]
... Intention is to do something that matches W3C policy
19:31:05 [Travis]
... May not need memoriandum of understanding.
19:31:24 [Travis]
... Current status is not to sign such a memoriandum.
19:31:37 [Travis]
PLH: We offer the full spectrum of arrangements
19:32:16 [Travis]
IS: ECMAScript can disclose its policies (are archived already)
19:32:36 [Travis]
paulc: sounds like nothing further is needed (in this group) regarding IPR policy.
19:32:59 [annevk]
plh-salonA, the "IPR book" is a printout of HTML5? :)
19:33:05 [Travis]
JN: We have a discussion list (es-discuss) for all things "Harmony" (3 years out probably)
19:33:14 [Travis]
... All work is going on that list
19:33:17 [rubys]
19:33:19 [pimpbot]
Title: es-discuss Info Page (at
19:33:20 [plh-salonA]
annevk, yes :)
19:33:40 [annevk]
19:33:42 [Travis]
BE: Current work related is being cross-posted to public-script-coord
19:33:57 [plh-salonA]
the printout is the html5 spoec as of Oct 9, 2009.
19:34:05 [Julian]
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19:34:08 [rubys]
19:34:09 [pimpbot]
Title: Mail Archives (at
19:34:13 [plh-salonA]
19:34:20 [Travis]
... public-script-coord is for info related to WebIDL binding issues, but exact lines of deliniation are murky.
19:34:22 [sylvaing]
might want to add a new spec status: "Critical Mass"
19:34:33 [Travis]
paulc: Should describe what lists are for what.
19:34:44 [Travis]
MM: Binary discussion should move to es-discuss.
19:35:26 [Travis]
MJS: Should go mostly to the es-discuss list. Not a lot of open issues in the scenarios/use cases.
19:35:36 [Travis]
paulc: participation issues?
19:35:44 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:35:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
19:35:45 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at
19:36:24 [Travis]
JN: Where some members are not also in W3C, there are some pariticpation issues.
19:36:40 [Travis]
... personally, I stayed away from plenary day because I knew I couldn't get in.
19:36:48 [Travis]
... we have at least one other member that can't really participate.
19:37:07 [Travis]
paulc: to be clear--is this because of the IPR policy of the organisation?
19:37:28 [Travis]
JN: Just concerned if we get into a relationship where we are jointly building a specification.
19:37:41 [Travis]
paulc: can't imagine doing that with out a memoriandum of understanding.
19:38:31 [plh-salonA]
Don Bruztman, Web3D
19:38:39 [Travis]
DB: X3D graphics seems to have re-hashed some of these issues. Perhaps some of our learnings can be shared.
19:38:52 [Travis]
paulc: Summary
19:39:17 [Travis]
... Agreed upon an oral plan: Recast WebIDL in ECAMScript 5 and in parallel, describe taxonomy.
19:39:40 [Travis]
... Also address issues of preventExtensions, etc.
19:39:59 [Travis]
... Lies mostly on WebIDL delivery and specifically on weinig.
19:40:17 [Travis]
... Binary data discussion to continue on es-discuss
19:40:47 [Travis]
... Regarding Policy issues, moving to joint work will require more formalism (current ad-hoc and mailing list coordination seems OK)
19:41:08 [Travis]
... So, what are a future plans for coordination?
19:41:50 [Travis]
JN: TC39 meets every other month (F2F) mostly in the bay area.
19:42:05 [Travis]
... Try to get up to Redmond in July (it's nice there)
19:42:14 [Julian]
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19:42:35 [Travis]
... Next meeting TC39 is next January, then every other month.
19:42:57 [Travis]
PLH: One point of information is that next TPAC is in November in Europe (location pending)
19:43:55 [Travis]
AVK: WebApps have some targeted meetings for specific topics.
19:45:23 [Travis]
I like F2F. Can we set something else up for next year (given that TPAC will be in Europe)?
19:45:47 [Travis]
paulc: I will leave the final decisions up to WebApps WG and TC39.
19:46:26 [Travis]
PLH: AC meeting in March may be an option. If the TC39 and WebApps wanted to meet around that time, we could arrange some extra rooms.
19:47:05 [Travis]
JN: Doesn't have to be in the bay area, but would like to keep the every-two-months heartbeat meeting if possible.
19:47:45 [Travis]
rubys: Plenty of companies in bay area that could host.
19:48:07 [gsnedders_]
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19:48:28 [Travis]
paulc: I think we're done. Thank you all!
19:49:13 [dmcallis]
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19:49:35 [Travis]
JN: Please send minutes to TC39
19:55:02 [pimpbot]
bugmail: "[Bug 8220] Remove microdata" (2 messages in thread) <11>
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20:55:18 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8223] New: Won't this Doctype trigger Quirks Mode? <11>
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21:02:07 [ArtB_]
RRSAgent, pointer?
21:02:07 [RRSAgent]
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21:39:00 [MikeSmith]
Topic: predefined Microdata vocabularies
21:39:05 [MikeSmith]
scribe: MikeSmith
21:39:51 [MikeSmith]
tantek: [asks if anybody in the room has tried out Microdata]
21:40:10 [MikeSmith]
tc is tantek
21:40:33 [MikeSmith]
tc: so we are not discussing the Microdata syntax or processing during this session
21:41:00 [MikeSmith]
... instead we're covering the related predefined vocabularies
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21:41:13 [MikeSmith]
... which are now in separate specs
21:41:30 [MikeSmith]
... which Hixie has requested to be published as WDs
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21:42:01 [MikeSmith]
tc: those are: vcard, vevent, license
21:42:36 [MikeSmith]
tc: these are not new inventions
21:43:08 [MikeSmith]
... vcard and ical came from IETF specs
21:43:37 [MikeSmith]
... around 2004 I proposed creating hCard and hCalendar
21:44:15 [MikeSmith]
... which defined a way for representing vcard and ical in HTML
21:44:32 [mth]
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21:44:37 [MikeSmith]
... (while the definitions of the semantics remain in the IETF specs)
21:45:27 [MikeSmith]
tc: so Hixie based Microdata's vcard and vevent on hcard and hCalendar
21:46:47 [MikeSmith]
tc: in the mean time, we have been working on making bug fixes to hCard and hCalendar
21:47:16 [MikeSmith]
tc: so the original vocabs remain the same, and the rest of this is based on those
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21:47:57 [MikeSmith]
tc: but we had existing bugs, which Hixie replicated into Microdata's vcard and vevent
21:48:23 [MikeSmith]
... so those bugs in the Microdata vocab specs not to be fixed to address those bugs
21:48:39 [Hixie]
that last line made no sense
21:48:49 [Hixie]
need to be fixed?
21:48:56 [MikeSmith]
Hixie, yep
21:48:58 [Hixie]
s/not to be/need to be/
21:49:02 [MikeSmith]
21:49:17 [Hixie]
is there a uri to documentation on those bugs in the microdata vocabs?
21:49:23 [Hixie]
(bugs, or e-mails, or something?)
21:50:07 [MikeSmith]
tc: the bugs are documented on the Microformats side
21:51:23 [Hixie]
i'm in paticular interested in how they were ported over
21:51:38 [MikeSmith]
tc: the Microdata vocabs should reference the 1.01 versions of the hCard and hCalendar instead of duplicating them
21:51:44 [Hixie]
i didn't really look that closely at hcard when writing the vcard vocabulary, i was mostly just porting the RFC straight over
21:51:54 [Hixie]
so i'm surprised that i ported bugs over from hcard also
21:52:04 [Hixie]
unless they're in the vcard rfc too :-)
21:52:05 [MikeSmith]
tc: I am behind on an action item to provide feedback to the group about this
21:52:42 [MikeSmith]
Hixie, I think Julian said that the RFCs have been updated also
21:52:57 [gsnedders_]
They are currently being revised, IIRC
21:53:42 [Hixie]
oh certainly the rfcs are being updated yes
21:53:50 [MikeSmith]
Julian: Tantek, would you be interested in publishing the hcard and hcalendar specs as work products of the HTML WG?
21:54:26 [MikeSmith]
tc: I would be fine with that, but maybe others would object. I guess it's a question that needs to be taken to the group.
21:54:39 [gsnedders_]
Hixie: It's a questioned of updated/revised :)
21:55:02 [gsnedders_]
21:55:11 [Lachy]
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21:55:15 [Hixie]
that's a very confusing regexp
21:55:23 [MikeSmith]
tc: perhaps the larger question is whether the W3C should be publishing spec for these types of vocabs at all
21:55:25 [Hixie]
and i expect it'll confuse rrsagent no end
21:55:34 [Bert]
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21:56:03 [MikeSmith]
tc: I personally am neutral on the question of whether these type of vocab specs should be at W3C or not
21:56:11 [gsnedders_]
it's a magic-exactly-what-I-mean-IRC-regexp :)
21:56:49 [MikeSmith]
Julian: the text that was in the HTML5 spec previously repeated or rephrased parts of the RFCs
21:57:40 [MikeSmith]
... so my complaint was that if the wording of those RFCs was not adequate or was incorrect, then the feedback should go to the editors of those RFCs
21:57:53 [MikeSmith]
... so the RFCs could be updated
21:58:01 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:58:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
21:58:03 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at
21:58:35 [MikeSmith]
tc: vcard 4 is a new version with a ton of new features
21:58:46 [MikeSmith]
... it also has a number of bug fixes
21:59:13 [MikeSmith]
tc: there are a couple of places where I diverged from the RFCs
21:59:35 [MikeSmith]
... because the RFCs did not match the use cases
22:00:28 [MikeSmith]
tc: an example of a bug/deficiency in the RFCs where Web publishing differed from the schema restrictions in the iCalendar RFC
22:00:56 [MikeSmith]
... specifically, the RFC restricts events to having only one URL associated with them
22:01:58 [MikeSmith]
... and when Hixie made Microdata vEvent vocab, he replicated that same restriction that's out of sync with real-world use cases of Web publishing of events
22:02:12 [noahm]
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22:02:34 [MikeSmith]
... whereas in hCalendar, we had made a change to allow an event to be associated with multiple URLs
22:03:10 [Hixie]
yeah i just followd the rfc exactly
22:03:17 [Hixie]
i'll fix it when the rfc is updated
22:03:20 [Hixie]
which i understand is happening
22:03:44 [MikeSmith]
tc: so, we are already tracking the RFCs and making decisions about where to diverge from the RFCs to bring them into closer alignment with real-world use cases
22:04:37 [MikeSmith]
tc: so I would like for the HTML WG to hold off on publishing the Microdata vocab drafts until the hCard and hCalendar specs get updated
22:04:47 [MikeSmith]
... which will either be a matter of days or weeks
22:05:15 [MikeSmith]
... I would like to get it done in days rather than in weeks [but it will depend on how much time I can free up]
22:05:46 [MikeSmith]
... specifically, I'm talking about the 1.01 versions
22:06:58 [MikeSmith]
tc: I think the vCard 4 and iCal 5545 drafts are not enough yet to be depended on
22:07:08 [MikeSmith]
... though iCal 5545 might be
22:07:55 [MikeSmith]
... but, no offense to the vCard folks, but I think there's just too much new stuff in vCard 4 that it's too early to be depending on it
22:08:01 [cardona507]
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22:08:39 [MikeSmith]
Julian: so another part of the perspective here is just that in general the HTML WG should avoid stepping on other peoples' specs
22:08:45 [tantek]
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22:09:33 [MikeSmith]
Julian: I am worried about cases where other specs diverge from the RFCs
22:10:17 [MikeSmith]
tantek: so we do diverge, but we do so in a way that enables 1-to-1 conversion back to the format specified in the RFCs
22:10:48 [MikeSmith]
Julian: the revision of the iCal draft was published just two months ago
22:11:38 [MikeSmith]
Julian: the vCard draft is all well along -- can still submit bug reports about it, but it's perhaps just a matter of 6 months away from being published as an RFC
22:12:25 [MikeSmith]
Julian: my concern is that it's not clear that Hixie has had any communication with the vCard and vCalendar editors
22:13:21 [MikeSmith]
22:13:23 [pimpbot]
Title: Microdata vocabularies: vCard (at
22:13:31 [MikeSmith]
22:13:32 [pimpbot]
Title: Microdata vocabularies: vEvent (at
22:13:32 [Hixie]
the vcard microdata vocab is just a direct port of the rfc, so it's not clear what communication is necessary
22:13:40 [Hixie]
same with vevent
22:13:42 [MikeSmith]
22:13:43 [pimpbot]
Title: Microdata vocabularies: Licensing Works (at
22:14:27 [MikeSmith]
we move on to discussion of the "work" (license) vocab
22:14:38 [Hixie]
(i'll be over for <progress>/<meter> discussion in 15min)
22:14:45 [Hixie]
we're moving on to web storage here
22:15:14 [silvia]
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22:15:20 [MikeSmith]
tc: at a minimum, you have to define a processing model for cases where authors omit content which the spec says is required
22:16:50 [MikeSmith]
tc: in 2000-something, a CC RDF rel vocab was created
22:17:13 [mjs]
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22:17:39 [weinig]
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22:17:59 [MikeSmith]
... then in 2004 a microformat rel-license mechanism was created, and subsequently a CC rel-license
22:19:02 [MikeSmith]
tc: I think that the state of things around license vocabs is not mature enough yet
22:20:08 [MikeSmith]
... and I propose that the HTML WG should not at this point be publishing the works vocab spec at all
22:21:04 [MikeSmith]
Julian: usually the page that you read in a browser and the feed that you read in a feed reader are generated from the same source (by a CMS or whatever)
22:21:56 [MikeSmith]
... so as far as the Microdata Atom spec, I'm not sure that there's any problem that it's really solving
22:23:24 [MikeSmith]
Julian: my proposal is either fix the language in the spec to say that if you don't have sufficient information in the document to be able to generate a valid/conformant Atom instance, then the spec should say, just don't.
22:23:41 [MikeSmith]
... or the spec should just be dropped completely
22:25:52 [MikeSmith]
Julian: so one specific problem is that if you don't have IDs in the HTML source document, then you can't generate stable IDs in the Atom output
22:27:11 [MikeSmith]
mjs: the Atom spec seems to only require that ID remains stable within the Atom document instance itself
22:27:47 [cardona507]
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22:28:11 [MikeSmith]
Julian: so the concern is not the case of generating the Atom output from exactly the same HTML document, but instead generating it from *almost* the same HTML document
22:29:18 [MikeSmith]
mjs: there does not actually seem to be any conformance constraint in the Atom spec that states the requirement you're expressing
22:29:49 [MikeSmith]
tc: there are numerous "must" requirements in the Atom spec that a problematic
22:30:28 [MikeSmith]
... in hAtom we are going to make all those "must" fields optional (because there are many cases of existing content that lack them)
22:30:56 [MikeSmith]
... and we will define an algorithm for generating content for them when the source lacks them
22:31:28 [MikeSmith]
annevk: the Atom spec only talks about Atom documents
22:32:11 [MikeSmith]
... it does not express requirements for documents from which Atom documents might be generated
22:33:19 [Bryan_Sullivan]
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22:33:26 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: the reason it's a "should" in HTML5 is that we know it's not always possible to output a valid Atom document
22:34:36 [MikeSmith]
Julian: so one way to address this is to remove the whole section about generating Atom output
22:35:09 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: I think it's good to have a solid mapping from HTML to Atom (though "solid" isn't exactly the best word)
22:35:32 [MikeSmith]
tc: but you don't really have a solid mapping
22:35:51 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: I'm happy to add text to the spec to put out the problem
22:36:11 [dom]
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22:36:34 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: inclusion of this in the spec was driven by use cases that were expressed in the discussions that led up to Microdata
22:36:45 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
22:36:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
22:36:46 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
22:37:16 [MikeSmith]
mjs: there are two possible reasons why this doesn't need to be in the spec
22:37:27 [MikeSmith]
... one is whether any other part of the spec relies on this section
22:37:51 [MikeSmith]
... second is that there is more than one possible way to generate Atom output from an HTML document
22:38:12 [MikeSmith]
... and currently the spec makes it seem like there is only one valid way to do it
22:38:43 [MikeSmith]
... so it seems like there may not be a strong reason for keeping it in the spec
22:39:22 [MikeSmith]
... instead of having one or more specs layered on top of HTML5 spec (because there are multiple ways to generate Atom output from HTML docs)
22:39:50 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: my rationale for including it in the spec is that it addresses use cases that were expressed in discussions
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22:40:02 [eric_carlson]
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22:41:27 [Julian]
topic: progress/meter
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22:41:47 [Julian]
Hixie: fallback options
22:42:13 [Julian]
Hixie: problem with formatting of values
22:42:13 [MikeSmith]
i/progress/mjs: because it's targeted at a different conformance class than other conformance classes in the spec, it could just as well be published as a separate draft
22:42:25 [Julian]
like delimites after thousands
22:43:16 [Julian]
TC: may need require <number> element
22:44:09 [Julian]
TC: isomorphic to time element
22:44:39 [Julian]
Hixie: progress has 6 numbers attached to it
22:44:52 [Julian]
mjs: is updated by script anyway
22:45:15 [Julian]
mjs: meter may be different, because there are cases for static use
22:46:09 [Julian]
adrian: worried about fallback breaking
22:46:57 [Julian]
adrian: testing will be costly
22:47:09 [Julian]
Hixie: consensus to remove fallback?
22:47:34 [Julian]
TC: <number> would be useful in many microformats
22:47:57 [Julian]
TC: is the one missing type element
22:48:29 [Julian]
Hixie: wanted to do <time> first
22:49:38 [Julian]
Hixie: <time> can come without content, and then the UA is required to generate a localized
22:49:42 [Julian]
22:50:44 [TabAtkins]
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22:51:04 [annevk]
time { content:local-time() }
22:51:31 [annevk]
(or something like that)
22:51:46 [eric_carlson]
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22:52:59 [Julian]
there seems to be consensus in the room not to have "magic fallback"
22:55:45 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8225] New: Make it clear that the Atom generation section is not the only such algorithm (e.g. hAtom is fine too). <11> 4** [Bug 8224] New: Mention that it's possible for the Atom section to generate invalid Atom if there's not enough data (e.g. missing authors). <11>
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23:25:54 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8226] New: inline review is goddamn annoying <11> 4** [Bug 8223] Won't this Doctype trigger Quirks Mode? <11>
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23:33:36 [cardona507]
here are the minutes from the <video> meeting
23:33:37 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face to face, Santa Clara - video session -- 06 Nov 2009 (at
23:34:18 [annevk]
Topic: MathML
23:34:25 [annevk]
Patrick Ion: I hope this is a non-issue
23:34:39 [annevk]
Patrick: we're grateful for the comments
23:35:05 [annevk]
Patrick: not sure there's much that amounts to problems for us
23:35:58 [annevk]
Patrick: the CSS color issue is because of backwards compatibility
23:36:14 [annevk]
AVK: Isn't the CSS color module a superset?
23:36:20 [annevk]
Tantek: I want to know!
23:36:28 [annevk]
Patrick: we'll look into it
23:36:53 [annevk]
Patrick: we reference Recs and not otherwise
23:37:04 [annevk]
Patrick: that's why we don't mention HTML5
23:37:18 [annevk]
Tantek: why would you need to mention HTML5?
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23:39:01 [annevk]
Patrick: there is some difficulty about embedding HTML in MathML
23:39:23 [annevk]
Patrick: it has been a principle to underspecify
23:40:24 [annevk]
AVK: I think in this specific case there was a request for better specification because it's not clear how the CSS and Math layout model interacted
23:41:14 [TabAtkins]
The answer is "not at all", which is why MathML is profiling a subset that can use CSS Layout.
23:41:42 [annevk]
Patrick: there has been a lot of switching between xlink:href and href
23:42:07 [annevk]
Patrick: you can use both if you want; if there are two ways to markup links we have to admit that this is the case
23:42:33 [annevk]
Patrick: we are specifying or describing situations we do not really control
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23:44:54 [TabAtkins]
23:44:55 [pimpbot]
Title: Twitter (at
23:45:11 [annevk]
MJS: Shelley and one other person replied to Paul Cotton's request for initial feedback on MathML
23:45:38 [annevk]
MJS: earlier today Shelley emailed comments (possibly collected from the list) to the Math WG without review from the HTML WG
23:46:04 [annevk]
MJS: you should not assume these comments have consensus with the HTML WG
23:47:09 [annevk]
Patrick: you can now send comments by November 11 to www-math
23:47:22 [annevk]
Patrick: mention "last call" in the subject line
23:47:28 [annevk]
Patrick: similarly for our other drafts
23:48:07 [annevk]
AVK: I'm interested in how you ended up with xlink:href and href?
23:48:23 [annevk]
Patrick: we tried to cover both faces?
23:48:25 [annevk]
AVK: which?
23:48:32 [annevk]
23:55:03 [annevk]
[Explanation of how xlink:href in text/html work followed.]
23:55:39 [annevk]
[Explanation of how XLink is not ideal followed as well and how Math probably needs to decide between Xlink and using plain attributes rather than keeping both.]
23:55:51 [annevk]
Topic: entities
23:56:14 [PIon]
23:56:15 [pimpbot]
Title: XML Entity definitions for Characters (at
00:01:55 [Hixie]
html5 uses the 'html5' and 'mathml' sets from
00:02:35 [Hixie]
and adds
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00:40:40 [paulc]
log TAG discussion on authoring specs:
00:44:55 [BryanSullivan]
00:45:53 [mjs]
HTML5 is actually the first markup language in which I have written a correct document from scratch with no copy/paste
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q+ BryanSullivan
00:46:37 [paulc]
rubys: this session may finish early
00:46:41 [cardona507]
tabatkins - did you have any slides or urls from your css gradients talk?
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rubys: we may get to the closing session early
00:48:01 [TabAtkins]
cardona507: If you have a recent (as of yesterday, 6-11-09) nightly of Firefox, my demo is at Otherwise, no, as the session wasn't recorded. I gave the talk again earlier today in front of a video camera, and we'll be publishing the video near future.
00:48:45 [cardona507]
sweet - thanks - please send the video around the public html when you get it
00:49:07 [TabAtkins]
It'll show up on twitter and such. I'll ensure that it shows up on public-html too.
00:49:30 [paulc]
ack Bryan
00:50:14 [TabAtkins]
gsnedder1: A girl, a camera, and three other dudes. It was hawt.
00:51:11 [cardona507]
00:51:17 [BryanSullivan]
00:52:25 [paulc]
Wrap up section is starting
00:52:41 [paulc]
a) Philipe - licensing
00:52:50 [paulc]
b) Paul - AC/AB report
00:53:07 [paulc]
c) Michael - Accessibility TF
00:53:17 [paulc]
d) Meeting schedule
00:53:32 [paulc]
e) Beer
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00:54:56 [MikeSmith]
00:54:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-29 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2009-11-05 -- OPEN
00:54:56 [trackbot]
00:54:57 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-29 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
00:56:03 [cardona507]
e) +1
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01:26:26 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8224] Mention that it's possible for the Atom section to generate invalid Atom if there's not enough data (e.g. missing authors). <11> 4** [Bug 8225] Make it clear that the Atom generation section is not the only such algorithm (e.g. hAtom is fine too). <11>
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06:21:08 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
06:21:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
06:21:09 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at
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planet: How to parse onclick javascript event parameter using MSHTML? <11>
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19:53:12 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8230] New: It might be good with a comment in script's Content attributes section mentioning onload/onerror being defined in Global attributes (I've had the question come up several times about script.onload missing from html5). <11> 4** [Bug 8228] New: The formatting of the example is very screwed up. Needs to be reformatted to be readable. <11
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21:53:42 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8234] New: Can you clearify what you mean with the author link type, If i writes a paper, should I include an author link to my homepage then? <11> 4** [Bug 8233] New: [gsnedders] "datagrid" parsing rules should be removed now the element is gone. <11> 4** [Bug 8232] New: [gs] End tag "body
21:54:29 [gsnedder1]
Yeah, get in there pimpbot, pimp ma bugs!
21:58:23 [gsnedder1]
Because most standards groups are 90% politics?
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21:59:47 [jgraham]
That isn't a sufficient axiom to derive the conclusion that group statements are needed
22:00:35 [jgraham]
What I would have liked to see in this case was:
22:01:07 [jgraham]
a) the HTMLWG were alerted (as part of a more general announcement) that the MathML people were looking for feedback on their spec
22:01:46 [gsnedder1]
The HTML WG chairs were on the chairs mailing list, who then forwarded the message to the entire group.
22:01:59 [jgraham]
b) People provided feedback CCing in the HTMLWG in cases where the issue had some overlap
22:02:34 [jgraham]
c) Followup and discussion from all concerned parties via email
22:02:40 [gsnedder1] is where the request for review was
22:04:05 [jgraham]
Yeah so the HTMLWG chairs should replay and say that due to the structure of our group we cannot provide a single feedback statement or something
22:04:19 [jgraham]
s/single feedback statement/group position/
22:05:10 [jgraham]
(Which is better anyway because interactive discussion facilitates understanding on both sides making for a more useful review.)
22:07:06 [jgraham]
(sending a huge document out and expecting a single coherent of comments from some other group that identifies all the issues they would have if they fully understood everything sounds like a losing proposition)
22:07:49 [gsnedder1]
Getting consensus on anything from a huge groups seems virtually impossible
22:09:09 [jgraham]
It is impossible except for the meaning of consensus that is "we ok a vote and this option won"
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22:09:36 [jgraham]
Which is a bit like saying that Americans have consensus that the Democrats are the best political party
22:09:51 [jgraham]
22:23:50 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8235] New: Given that Gecko and Webkit don't support them in XML, I think that named properties in HTMLDocument objects should be restricted to HTML documents, given that this feature is only included for backward compatibility and is horribly designed. <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8236] New: 1) why a query is stored in the `search' attribute and a URL fragment is stored in the `fragment' attribute? The naming is a bit confusing. 2) Why the is no restrictions for the `port' attribute: an integer in a range [0-65535]; 3) The getter condition fo <11>
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01:24:37 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <11> 4** [Bug 8238] New: Add support for X3D <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8235] Given that Gecko and Webkit don't support them in XML, I think that named properties in HTMLDocument objects should be restricted to HTML documents, given that this feature is only included for backward compatibility and is horribly designed. <11> 4** [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <11>
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07:26:09 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <11>
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10:56:52 [pimpbot]
bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (2 messages in thread) <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8239] New: [gs] "insert a character" is impossible with e.g., ElementTree, as it has no concept of adjacent text nodes. Need to clarify whether that is ever conforming or not. <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8228] The formatting of the example is very screwed up. Needs to be reformatted to be readable. <11> 4** [Bug 8149] Why put the > signs at the beginning of the line here? It distracts from the example. <11>
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13:57:48 [hermanon]
hi,am using the GET method and am getting no headers why is that happening ,please?
14:01:32 [hermanon]
forgive my boobness
14:01:44 [hermanon]
i mean noobness:)
14:27:44 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8240] New: Quote: "The value attribute must not be present unless the form attribute is present." This doesn't make sense, since the button can also belong to a form by being put between the form element tags. It should read: "The value attribute must not be prese <11>
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14:51:50 [pimpbot]
planet: Is there a good jQuery Drag-and-drop file upload plugin? <11>
15:27:59 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <11>
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bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (2 messages in thread) <11>
17:28:26 [pimpbot]
bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (3 messages in thread) <11>
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bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (4 messages in thread) <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8235] Given that Gecko and Webkit don't support them in XML, I think that named properties in HTMLDocument objects should be restricted to HTML documents, given that this feature is only included for backward compatibility and is horribly designed. <11>
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planet: @sergray Yes, I'll be at the GDD in Moscow on Tuesday, doing HTML5 demos during the keynote, then an hour-long followup session. <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8241] New: Named properties on window <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8243] New: It doesn't matter what the initial order of pending is, it is sorted in step 6. <11> 4** [Bug 8242] New: What if candidate doesn't have an ancestor element with an itemscope attribute? <11>
23:29:55 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8244] New: can you make RDF statements where the subject is another resource here? Metadata has previously been normally where subject is the current resource (or object with rev) but general RDF does not constrain this. <11>
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00:54:18 [pimpbot]
planet: 5 years of Firefox <11>
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bugmail: "[Bug 8238] Add support for X3D" (2 messages in thread) <11>
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planet: HTML 5 filter language or some analog of filter language? <11>
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planet: About Dynamic UI, Web-Apps, Performance, and State-Machines <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8246] New: what about IE parsing problems? <11>
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planet: W3CTP: Technical Plenary Day <11> 4** HTML 5 offline caching <11>
12:58:47 [hsivonen]
annevk: I like the Hitchhike's Guide comparison
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planet: Should I care about HTML 5? <11>
14:01:21 [Philip]
jgraham: annevk's blog, which pimpbot mentioned, I expect
14:04:54 [Dashiva]
The question is earth
14:07:05 [Dashiva]
I feel the unicorns have somewhat pushed the ponies out of the spotlight
14:07:42 [annevk]
for fictional creatures that is quite a feat
14:08:46 [Philip]
If the ponies are feeling left out, they can easily just stick a Cornetto on their heads and pretend to be unicorns
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14:09:16 [Dashiva]
Why should the ponies have to adjust? It's not their fault they were born without horns.
14:12:15 [Philip]
Life's not fair
14:12:22 [Philip]
The ponies have to learn that
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Philip: do you have any stats on usage of event handlers on elements?
16:04:01 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8249] New: gjfhjkffffkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk <11>
16:11:15 [Philip]
Stevef: What kind of stats?
16:11:30 [Philip] has counts of number of pages using attributes, which includes the on* attributes
16:12:05 [Stevef]
Philip: actually do you have the urls for those?, would be really useful
16:12:59 [Stevef]
Philip: for the onclick in particular
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bugmail: [Bug 8249] gjfhjkffffkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk <11>
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Stevef: Sorry, got distracted
16:53:23 [Philip]
If you happen to read the logs then please remind to respond when you're here :-)
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planet: Which would you prefer? SVG, HTML5 or regen'd-PNG for graphs & charts? <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8252] New: HTTP caching rules are _ignored_? What the hell? What's wrong with extending Cache-Control to support user-agent caching instead of coming up with an entirely new mechanism? <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8255] New: Channel messaging is missing a description of purpose <11>
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17:10:17 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8256] New: [gs] Is form.submit() async or sync? I don't see where this is defined. From my reading it should be sync, as it should just run the steps to completion. <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8256] [gs] Is form.submit() async or sync? I don't see where this is defined. From my reading it should be sync, as it should just run the steps to completion. <11>
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18:04:29 [DanC]
anybody know what became of the idea of ECMA TC-39 folks meeting with W3C folks at TPAC last week?
18:10:31 [pimpbot]
bugmail: "[Bug 8256] [gs] Is form.submit() async or sync? I don't see where this is defined. From my reading it should be sync, as it should just run the steps to completion." (2 messages in thread) <11>
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00:19:25 [karl]
when firefox 3.5 requests an image from an IMG SRC included in an html doc, the browser sends image/png,image/*;q=0.8,*/*;q=0.5
00:19:43 [karl]
I wonder what IE, Opera and Safari do
00:19:55 [karl]
Value of Accept:
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11:14:51 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8252] HTTP caching rules are _ignored_? What the hell? What's wrong with extending Cache-Control to support user-agent caching instead of coming up with an entirely new mechanism? <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8241] Named properties on window <11>
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12:45:16 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8260] New: The name apparently must be compared in an ASCII case-insensitive manner, even though it is guaranteed to already be all ASCII lowercase from the tokenizer. It would make more sense to compare it case-sensitively (like it is earlier in the "initial" mode) <11> 4** [Bug 8259] New: There is one case of "The public identifier is set to" in amongst all the "The
12:48:47 [MikeSmith]
action-133: see James Craig message at
12:48:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-133 Develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content notes added
12:48:48 [pimpbot]
Title: canvas accessibility: faked "shadow DOM" proof of concept from James Craig on 2009-11-09 ( from October to December 2009) (at
12:50:07 [MikeSmith]
action-133: faked "shadow DOM" proof concept from James Craig -
12:50:07 [trackbot]
ACTION-133 Develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content notes added
12:52:45 [MikeSmith]
12:52:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-133 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content -- due 2009-12-17 -- OPEN
12:52:45 [trackbot]
12:52:46 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-133 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
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13:53:00 [karl]
Visualization of HTML 5 features
13:53:14 [kunter]
and we have things to talk about it :)
13:58:42 [hsivonen]
in the Beautiful HTML example, jquery should probably be at the top as defer/async in the HTML5 world
14:31:44 [kunter]
yes, nevertheless, this has became a common practice among savvy designers to bring the payload "after" the page was constructed for good reasons
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14:34:07 [kunter]
only if the browsers were capable of arranging the order of downloads according to modern time needs, where almost every page, now, needs extensive client-side programming libraries for the user interaction, such decelerations could be made where they are supposed to be
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15:15:54 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8263] New: "dimenson" should be "dimension" <11> 4** [Bug 8261] New: "The name is set to anything other than "HTML"." - s/HTML/html/ [sp] <11> 4** [Bug 8259] There is one case of "The public identifier is set to" in amongst all the "The public identifier starts with". This seems like someth
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bugmail: [Bug 8264] New: Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" <11>
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21:47:37 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8266] New: I would like to suggest that the id attribute should be allowed to start with characters 0-9 <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8267] New: the test link ( is broken <11>
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04:19:14 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11> 4** [Bug 8268] New: XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11>
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05:19:28 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8264] Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" <11>
05:21:50 [MikeSmith]
05:21:51 [pimpbot]
MikeSmith: [Bug 8264] Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" <11> 4** [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11> 4** [Bug 8268] New: XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to (50 more messages)
05:23:32 [MikeSmith]
hmm, doesn't show up at yet
05:23:33 [pimpbot]
Title: [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype from on 2009-11-12 ( from November 2009) (at
06:19:42 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8266] I would like to suggest that the id attribute should be allowed to start with characters 0-9 <11>
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08:20:15 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11>
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09:14:43 [pimpbot]
118264:, P1, NEW, 13Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval"
09:18:13 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: I just changed it back to editorial
09:20:32 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8264] Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval" <11>
09:28:51 [hsivonen]
MikeSmith: ok
09:32:12 [annevk]
actually, NE means controversial
09:32:20 [annevk]
which it arguably is
09:37:22 [MikeSmith]
true, in practice that's pretty much what we want to actually track
09:37:45 [MikeSmith]
(that is, whether a bug is (potentially) controversial or not)
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10:26:55 [mjs]
didn't someone else file a bug along the same lines?
10:35:49 [MikeSmith]
mjs: yeah
10:36:16 [mjs]
I'm not sure if they are duplicates exactly but they should at least be cross-referenced
10:37:46 [MikeSmith]
I think we already moved that other to resolved-wontfix and escalated to tracker
10:38:16 [MikeSmith]
@bug 7687
10:38:17 [pimpbot]
MikeSmith: 11, P2, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13Use "representation" instead of "resource" in �6.9
10:38:43 [MikeSmith]
10:38:43 [trackbot]
ISSUE-81 -- Offline Web Applications section should use the term "representation" instead of "resource" -- RAISED
10:38:43 [trackbot]
10:38:44 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-81 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
10:39:33 [MikeSmith]
issue-81: see also
10:39:33 [trackbot]
ISSUE-81 Offline Web Applications section should use the term "representation" instead of "resource" notes added
10:39:34 [pimpbot]
118264:, P1, NEW, 13Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval"
10:50:56 [pimpbot]
bugmail: "[Bug 8264] Fix terminology for "resource", "representation", "retrieval"" (3 messages in thread) <11>
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11:37:50 [kunter]
Do you think the website is going to be HTML5 and strip the mark-up from"<?xml..?>"
11:37:54 [kunter]
before the recommendation date?
11:41:22 [kunter]
I think it would take another huge effort to forget about the "backward compatibility concerns" beyond some point
11:43:59 [kunter]
something, the standards organization(s) will have to agree with at someday - like re-modeling of the protocols for a next-gen clean start
11:44:16 [hsivonen]
kunter: that was XHTML2
11:44:50 [kunter]
I was predicting this answer, and literally XHTML2 is vague atm
11:44:58 [hsivonen]
as for the W3C site switching to HTML5, it would require a sweeping change of attitude
11:52:37 [mjs]
right now the W3C is not even willing to publish the HTML5 spec as HTML5
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14:19:18 [trackbot]
ACTION-131 -- Steve Faulkner to draft ALT spec -- due 2009-11-14 -- OPEN
14:19:18 [trackbot]
14:19:19 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-131 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
14:19:33 [MikeSmith]
14:19:33 [trackbot]
ACTION-138 -- Steve Faulkner to produce a matrix based on Henri's work -- due 2009-10-08 -- OPEN
14:19:33 [trackbot]
14:19:34 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-138 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
14:19:51 [MikeSmith]
14:19:51 [trackbot]
ACTION-133 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to develop an accessibility API and model for canvas as well as attributes to specify alternative content -- due 2009-12-17 -- OPEN
14:19:51 [trackbot]
14:19:52 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-133 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
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15:22:02 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype <11>
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15:52:09 [pimpbot]
bugmail: "[Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype" (4 messages in thread) <11>
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16:22:17 [pimpbot]
bugmail: "[Bug 8268] XMLHttpRequest fails for documents with named entities due to doctype" (6 messages in thread) <11>
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16:47:50 [paulc]
No meeting today (Thu Nov 12).
16:49:04 [paulc]
16:49:05 [pimpbot]
Title: No HTML WG telecon this week (Nov 13, 2009) from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-11-12 ( from October to December 2009) (at
17:02:37 [paulc]
No meeting today (Thu Nov 12).
17:02:51 [paulc]
17:02:52 [pimpbot]
Title: No HTML WG telecon this week (Nov 13, 2009) from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-11-12 ( from October to December 2009) (at
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20:21:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-131 -- Steve Faulkner to draft ALT spec -- due 2009-11-14 -- OPEN
20:21:09 [trackbot]
20:21:10 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-131 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at
20:56:36 [MarcoAchury]
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21:23:29 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8267] the test link ( is broken <11>
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changes: hixie: Nuke history.clearState() since it was confusingly specced and its use cases were unclear. (whatwg r4375) <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8272] New: why not make the heading information compulsory for the Section element ?? In a loose implementation like the current one, the Section element is acting just like a Div element but which lacks backward compatibility. <11>
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06:26:43 [pimpbot]
Title: SPDY: Google wants to speed up the web by ditching HTTP - Ars Technica (at
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Dashiva: Seems like Google is quite fond of the idea of reimplementing the entire web for the sole purpose of making Google's sites faster
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"HTTP "pipelining" doesn't help, as [...] in addition, many proxies apparently have poor support for pipelining."
11:42:46 [Philip]
compared to their great support for protocols that don't even exist
11:42:52 [Dashiva]
11:43:20 [Philip]
(They have a better point about how the pipeline can be blocked by a slow early response, though)
11:43:51 [Philip]
(so it would be better if responses could be reordered)
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cue suggesting new CSS features because IE doesn't support the existing CSS features
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"Caching: Since we're proposing to do almost everything over an encrypted channel, we're making caching either difficult or impossible." - that sounds great for a protocol that is designed for performance
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bugmail: [Bug 8278] New: why can't the frame number be requested? It's video, position is expressed in frames, not in seconds. a frames per second value could easily convert this to seconds <11>
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07:03:39 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8307] New: It would be nice if there were a way to draw an image with a color key. The only other way I can think of doing this is by a for loop and pixel by pixel copying... which probably isn't fast <11>
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22:43:51 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8309] New: semantics of footnotes : why not using <aside> elements as well? <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 7475] Semantics of rel=first and rel=index breaks specs and implementations <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8310] New: script block's source initialization: please honor the specified charset and type <11>
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03:44:58 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8311] New: Typo error in algorithm to calculate ratios <11>
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04:15:12 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8311] Typo error in algorithm to calculate ratios <11>
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05:15:28 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8309] semantics of footnotes : why not using <aside> elements as well? <11> 4** [Bug 8310] script block's source initialization: please honor the specified charset and type <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8313] New: The case for U+003E (">") is redundant here, as it'll be processed in the same way in "anything else". <11>
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bugmail: [Bug 8314] New: the <figure><dd></dd><dt></dt><figure> as in your example does not pass validation. it says that dd is not allowed in this format. <11>
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15:47:58 [pimpbot]
bugmail: [Bug 8314] the <figure><dd></dd><dt></dt><figure> as in your example does not pass validation. it says that dd is not allowed in this format. <11>
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