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16:33:58 <Ralph> Meeting: W3C Technical Plenary
16:34:04 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
16:34:20 <Ralph> zakim, call salon_1
16:34:20 <Zakim> ok, Ralph; the call is being made
16:34:21 <Zakim> W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has now started
16:34:23 <Zakim> +Salon_1
16:34:31 <Ralph> zakim, salon_1 is MeetingRoom
16:34:31 <Zakim> +MeetingRoom; got it
16:36:03 <Zakim> -MeetingRoom
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16:36:05 <Zakim> Attendees were MeetingRoom
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16:43:53 <raman> morning all from the room!
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16:44:32 <mauro> mauro has changed the topic to: Technical Plenary Day agenda http://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/2009ac/November/
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16:45:46 <cardona507> good morning everyone
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16:46:39 <mauro> Topic: Welcome to TPAC 09 (from Tim)
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16:47:29 <Zakim> -Ralph
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16:47:37 <Zakim> the conference code is hidden, wiecha
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16:48:19 <mauro> Chair: Ralph
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16:48:42 <IanJ> scribe: Ian
16:48:47 <IanJ> scribe: IanJ
16:48:53 <mauro> [ Tim welcomes everybody ]
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16:49:05 <IanJ> Topic:  Decentralized Extensibility in HTML5
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16:49:40 <IanJ> Henry: Welcome to a debate, intended to be educational. Structured to bring out the details, complexity, and richness of the problem space we label "decentralized extensibility"
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16:50:20 <IanJ> Noah's slides: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Nov/0003.html
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16:51:10 <IanJ> Noah: My job today is to bring everyone here up to speed on why this is important, why it's hard, and some background on some particular details.
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16:51:42 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Nov/0003.html noah's presentation materials
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16:51:43 <IanJ> Noah: HTML is the most important doc format on the Web, and quite possibly the most important doc format in the world.
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16:51:53 <IanJ> Noah: We are debating who gets to say what is in HTML.
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16:52:03 <IanJ> Noah: This also says a lot about who we are as a community.
16:52:04 <marie>  [Noah's slides are also linked from http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/PlenaryAgenda.html]
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16:52:14 <IanJ> [Noah points out that he's not representing IBM or the TAG, just here to help!]
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16:52:49 <IanJ> Noah's definition of decentralized extensibility:
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16:53:13 <IanJ> "The ability for a language to be extended by multiple parties who do not explicitly coordinate with each other."
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16:53:32 <IanJ> Slide 5: What sorts of extensions/
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16:53:45 <IanJ> Noah: elements, attributes, data values.
16:53:58 <IanJ> Noah: There are potentially lots of extensions people do for lots of reasons.
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16:54:17 <IanJ> Noah: First, why some people are passionate about the importance of decentralized extensibility.
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16:54:32 <IanJ> Noah: (1) modularity is good (2) separation of concerns is good
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16:54:56 <IanJ> (3) Web is an unusual system; Web is too big for any central group to invent or coordinate all the extensions we need.
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16:55:13 <IanJ> Noah: My view is that good architecture can be reduced to a few use cases.
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16:55:28 <IanJ> Noah: SVG is a separate specification, that happens to be an XML vocabulary.
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16:55:31 <IanJ> ..it's easy to reuse the pieces.
16:55:49 <IanJ> ...you and I may work in an industry where we choose to use SVG in a document format of our creation.
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16:56:12 <IanJ> ..by using the same SVG as others, we have some changes that cut/paste works across container languages,
16:56:22 <IanJ> that the same svg parers/renderer can be used, and that the same toolset may be used.
16:56:32 <IanJ> ...and it will also be easier to duplicate user training, documentaiton, etc.
16:56:49 <IanJ> ...and we may also benefit from testing separation.
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16:57:13 <IanJ> ...finally, the separation of concerns allows the marketplace to decide on a solution.
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16:57:26 <IanJ> Noah: Now the perspective on challenge to decentralized extensibility.
16:57:38 <IanJ> Noah: First, nobody has found a painless way to do this (more on why in a moment)
16:57:53 <IanJ> Controversy: not everyone believes HTML extensions will be needed very often anyway.
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16:58:24 <IanJ> Noah; For instance, SVG only happens once in a while. Maybe it's easier not to build a generalized mechanism but to introduce features as we need them to the core language.
16:58:40 <IanJ> Noah: Some mechanisms for avoiding name collisions are ugly and/or complicated.
16:58:56 <dom> s/Noah;/Noah:/
16:58:59 <IanJ> Noah: With DE (decentralized extensibility), it can be hard to move experimental extensions into the core.
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16:59:09 <IanJ> (example: <xxx:table> -> <table>)
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16:59:23 <IanJ> Noah: The main controversies in this discussion are about avoiding name collisions.
16:59:31 <IanJ> Noah: Now, on to some questions:
16:59:35 <tantek> <xxx:table> -> <table> is not what has happened in practice
16:59:40 <tantek> what has happened in practice is:
16:59:42 <IanJ>  * Does HTML 5 provide decentralized extensibility?
16:59:44 <tantek> <a> -> <svg:a>
16:59:49 <tantek> the *opposite*
17:00:08 <tantek> namespaces = siloization, encouraging *divergence*, not convergence
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17:00:38 <IanJ> Noah: What the text/html serialization of HTMl 5 does not provide are mechanisms like XML namespaces that help to avoid naming conflicts or help explict existing vocabularies.
17:00:48 <raman> tantek, was waiting for you to say svg:a :-)
17:01:13 <tantek> raman - the presenter used SVG as an example, therefore it was fair game in cross-examination.
17:01:38 <IanJ> Noah: There are a number of extension points (Noah lists a few: @class, @rel, <meta>, <script>, ...)
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17:01:59 <IanJ> Noah: So the question is "how will you coordinate on extensions"?
17:02:04 <IanJ> Noah: My understanding is that:
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17:02:05 <hsivonen> (surely SVG should be coordinated with HTML right here at the W3C instead of being something that happens without coordination between the parties)
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17:02:14 <IanJ> 1) There won't be too many cases where you need major new features
17:02:22 <Julian> tantek, I've seen other vocabularies where the opposite happened (existing elements in other namespaces reused properly)
17:02:26 <IanJ> 2) Where there are major new features, update the spec
17:02:28 <tantek> I hereby place my contributions to irc.w3.org chat rooms into the public domain, and explicitly grant permission for inclusion in any public logs.
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17:03:21 <IanJ> Noah: There's a point of view that if your spec is really extensible, you can leave a lot out of it.
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17:03:36 <IanJ> Noah: HTML 5 has been criticized for including "too much" presumably since it is not extensible enough.
17:03:57 <IanJ> Noah: There has been this debate (week by week) -- in or out?; my list of features here is a moving target.
17:03:59 <raman> Tantek, I do the same for my comments, and further assert that Bubbles promises to do the same --- all other dogs permitting:-)
17:04:11 <IanJ> Noah: So the big question here has to do with name collisions.
17:04:21 <tantek> Liam - you can use CC0.
17:04:23 <IanJ> Noah: I will focus here on namespaces, the mechanism traditionally used in this context.
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17:04:55 <tantek> http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
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17:05:13 <IanJ> IanJ has changed the topic to: Technical Plenary Day agenda http://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/2009ac/November/; back channel irc is #tpac09
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17:05:39 <IanJ> [Noah starts to dive down into xml namespaces]
17:06:00 <tantek> "this markup is ugly"
17:06:03 <IanJ> Noah: I think the biggest con is that "people hate this stuff"; hard to type, URIs are long.
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17:06:16 <tantek> also, copy/paste fragility
17:06:16 <IanJ> Noah: URIs should be in tag names, but that is even worse to type.
17:06:33 <IanJ> Noah: Everybody does this....(e.g., java packages)...you end up with clumsy names, and then complexity to make them tractable.
17:06:43 <IanJ> Noah: Since we don't like prefixes, then we use defaults, which cause their own problems.
17:06:43 <tantek> ah there it is
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17:07:18 <tantek> "Namespaces tend to break DOM-level updates (e.g. innerHTML)."
17:07:27 <benadida> actually, it's just that the people who hate this stuff are highly vocal. Plenty of people don't care.
17:07:50 <tantek> benadida - the opposite, the people that *do* care about namespaces tend to be the more vocal.
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17:08:10 <Marcos> isn't src attribute in the null namespace?
17:08:21 <IanJ> Noah: For me the deepest flaw in the namespace approach is that as element names become more "standard" you are stuck with the prefixes used in deployed content.
17:08:43 <IanJ> Noah: There are some proposals floating around to help manage the namespace question (Liam Quin, and one from Microsoft). Proposals linked from slides.
17:08:46 <IanJ> Noah: Summary:
17:08:58 <kkLO00> hey guys, keep up the good work
17:08:59 <IanJ>  * Disagreement about how often extensions will be needed, and whether collisions would cause problems.
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17:09:12 <IanJ> * Disagreement about whether central coordination through the HTML WG suffice.s
17:09:27 <IanJ> * Disagreement about whehter it's practical to provide decentralized mechanism to avoid name collisions.
17:09:39 <tantek> "Namespaces are ... usable in XHTML" <- strongly disagreed.
17:09:41 <IanJ> * There is disagreement as to how much to compromise to maintain compatibility with XML.
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17:10:20 <IanJ> * There is disabilityas to which capabilities shoudl be slpit out from HTML and which existing Rec to make usable in HTML 5 (e.g., microdata, rdfa mappings, svg, canvas)
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17:10:30 <IanJ> * There is disagreement in particular about inclusion of RDFa
17:10:49 <IanJ> [Noah discusses why it matters]
17:10:55 <benadida> tantek - seeing how much you have to say in this chat room appears to contradict your claim that anti-namespace people aren't vocal :)
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17:11:25 <IanJ> Whether: HTML 5 will adapt well as new capabilities are needed, who will be able to create and deploy enhancements, whether HTML 5 will be convenient, compatible with existing content, will work with XML tools
17:11:40 <tantek> benadida - email logs of public-html proves the point that namespace advocates are more vocal, more often, and spend more time write lengthier messages on the topic.
17:12:00 <Roger> I think Noah just did a heck of a good job.
17:12:01 <IanJ> Henry: Thank you, Noah.
17:12:26 <DanC> well, most of the data isn't visible. most people who care one way or the other about namespaces don't participate in public-html or W3C at all
17:12:38 <John_Boyer> This talk did a good job on syntactic extensibility, but we also need to be considering extensibility from the interaction domain, e.g. uniform support for XBL-like functionality.
17:13:13 <IanJ> [Debaters]
17:13:31 <IanJ> Jonas Sicking (Mozilla Foundation)
17:13:37 <IanJ> Tony Ross (Microsoft)
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17:14:10 <jmorris> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1104-tpac-ht/#%281%29
17:14:10 <IanJ> slides: http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1104-tpac-ht/
17:14:21 <IanJ> First question on definitions:
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17:14:32 <IanJ> Tony: I think that people are trying to solve different problems.
17:14:56 <annevk> s/Tony/Jonas/
17:14:59 <IanJ> thx
17:15:07 <IanJ> Jonas: Seems good to allow private extensions.
17:15:20 <IanJ> Jonas: The Web at large may not need everything.
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17:15:35 <IanJ> Jonas: The distributed part is the harder part - people who don't talk to one another to coordinate extensions.
17:15:48 <IanJ> Jonas: I agree that name collisions is a hard question.
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17:16:26 <IanJ> Jonas: So I think it's ok to have other W3C groups be able to add extensions.
17:16:47 <IanJ> ...e.g., we see browser vendors doing experimental css property values to test them out.
17:17:10 <IanJ> ...there's a small amount of coordination to avoid stepping on feed, but it's distributed to the extent that more than one group can create extensions. 
17:17:17 <matt> s/feed/feet/
17:17:19 <IanJ> ...and I think that kind of extension is a good thing.
17:17:35 <IanJ> Tony: Largely I agree with a lot of what Jonas said.
17:17:45 <IanJ> Tony: What is important when talking about DE is who can extend, and how.
17:18:14 <IanJ> Tony: You can have people writing their own standards, frameworks with their own extensions, browsers that extend, non-browser tools that extend, etc.
17:18:34 <IanJ> Tony: There are extensibility mechanisms in HTML, but it only goes so far (e.g., microformats)
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17:18:39 <tantek> "to some extent distributed extensibility is possible in HTML today, we have seen this with microformats"
17:18:57 <IanJ> Tony: We are imposing some limitations...you can't create your own tags
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17:19:02 <benadida> microformats are *distributed* extensibility?
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17:19:22 <tantek> benadida - was just quoting Tony
17:19:43 <IanJ> Tony: As we get more than just browser vendors involved, we can be talking about tens of thousands of people wanting to add their own targetted extensions.
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17:19:57 <tantek> I'm not sure I would call microformats "distributed extensibility" themselves, but rather an example of distributed extensibility in that they occurred *outside* W3C.
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17:20:06 <IanJ> Tony: If someone wants to use a feature defined by somebody else, if the mechanism is simply prefix-based, there's a desire to keep the name short.
17:20:26 <Nightwolf> hi
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17:20:34 <rigo> tantek, everything occured first outside W3C
17:20:46 <tantek> Tony: "if someone wants to use calendar from one and date picker from another ..."
17:20:54 <IanJ> Tony: Another issue is consistency.
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17:21:05 <IanJ> ...we have support for this in xhtml...and in the (HTML5) DOM
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17:21:15 <IanJ> ...we have support for namespaces implicity in the html 5 syntax.
17:21:26 <IanJ> ...names acquire namespaces implicitly (e.g., svg and mathml namespaces)
17:21:50 <IanJ> Tony: So namespaces are available through the Dom; just not there yet in the markup.
17:21:51 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: W3C Technical Plenary http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/PlenaryAgenda ; see also backchannel: #tpac09
17:22:01 <IanJ> Tony: I think namespaces provide a desirable solution.
17:22:40 <IanJ> Jonas: When people want to add a feature to HTML 5, we first ask "what is the use case"?
17:22:49 <IanJ> Jonas: So why do we want this type of decentralized extensibility.
17:23:03 <tantek> There is insufficient representation of pragmatists and web publishers on this panel.
17:23:31 <IanJ> Tony: Lots of XML applications use namespaces, providing xml-namespace based support in html 5 would allow easier reuse in HTML 5 context.
17:23:50 <IanJ> [Henry asking each speaker to ask the other for any clarifications]
17:24:02 <IanJ> Tony: What in particular do you find about xml namespaces hard or undesirable?
17:24:09 <IanJ> Jonas: Two problems, partially stemming from the same thing.
17:24:31 <IanJ> Jonas: When I hear people talk about various elements, everyone refers to <svg:a>...nobody writes out the full svg namespace.
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17:25:36 <IanJ> Jonas: People think of the "full name" as being the "short name" (prefix + local name)
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17:25:48 <IanJ> Jonas: People in practice identify with the short name
17:26:07 <IanJ> Jonas: The real name is a tuple; you have to pass around two values (namespace URI + local name, and sometimes even the prefix, too)
17:26:13 <IanJ> ...so this adds complexity to code.
17:26:24 <IanJ> core questions
17:26:28 <IanJ> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1104-tpac-ht/#%284%29
17:26:41 <IanJ> Henry: I heard considerable agreement on "what DE is."
17:26:52 <IanJ> Henry: People begin to differ in the core questions.[
17:27:26 <IanJ> Henry: how do we enable DE in HTML 5? How to avoid name collision? Subsidiary issues (XML v HTMl serializations, apis, validators, non-browser UAs)
17:27:41 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
17:27:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
17:27:47 <IanJ> rrsagent, set logs public
17:28:14 <IanJ> Tony: Regarding a proposal to manage name collisions. There was a proposal on the list (@@URI?@@).
17:28:37 <Roger> I recall that one of the big factors in the success of HTML was that it was a highly simplified subset of SGML.
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17:28:48 <Roger> People like me could use it.
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17:29:11 <IanJ> Tony: I think DE is somewhat enabled already in HTML 5, but I think that for the sake of consistency, we should explore how much closer we can bring HTML XML serialization with existing XML ns mechanism.
17:29:39 <Roger> I personally would like to be able to do a "view source", cut and paste some of the HTML into my own document, and have a chance in hell of making it work.
17:29:44 <IanJ> Tony: You can use namespace APis available in the DOM.
17:29:52 <tantek> Tony, if you believe in XML Namespaces, then resurrect XHTML2, grab whatever elements you want from HTML5 (perhaps the whole set), introduce a new mimetype for non-draconian XML handling, and offer it as an alternative to HTML5.
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17:30:13 <annevk> XML5 FTW!
17:30:32 <IanJ> Tony: Obviously validators have a lot of freedom in what they validate, but there is an impact on users.
17:30:52 <rubys> annek: are you going to bring that up that when Henry opens up the floor for questions?
17:30:58 <Hixie> that's what data-* is for
17:31:07 <masinter> This is mainly a political issue hiding behind a technical one. If Microsoft started to use <SL> for SilverLight and Linden Labs started to use <SL> for Second Life, who would have the authority to allow or disallow either of them, or decide between them?
17:31:07 <hsivonen> (fwiw, today XHTML5 validators don't allow random namespaces, so Namespaces and validation are separate questions)
17:31:08 <IanJ> Tony: You don't want to push some functionality to script and away from declarative markup.
17:31:20 <IanJ> Tony: We should provide guidelines for DE.
17:31:28 <tantek> annevk ++
17:31:31 <IanJ> Tony: Avoiding name conflicts with core language in the future
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17:31:39 <raman> namespace view  -- Let's colonize the Web" --- 2 seen as 5 (mirror image view) dash-it -- we dont want to be colonized --- Hence --- use dashes instead of colons everywhere:-)
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17:31:45 <IanJ> Tony: Using a URI helps also with conflicts with other extensions.
17:31:46 <Hixie> data-*="" already handles the dojo use case -- it's what it was meant for: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#embedding-custom-non-visible-data
17:31:49 <hsivonen> masinter, moreover, is it good for the Web to delegate a substantial part of markup processing to Silverlight or Second Life?
17:31:50 <IanJ> Tony: Prefixes help shorten.
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17:32:05 <tantek> hsivonen - W3C has never defined how to validate multi-namespace documents.
17:32:11 <IanJ> Tony: It is an indirection, but people are used to that (e.g., putting a value in a variable)
17:32:17 <benadida> Tony is right on "you don't want to push some functionality to script and away from declarative markup." I want a web where declarative data can be one of the powerful tools at our disposal.
17:32:25 <hsivonen> masinter, what if I have a device that doesn't have a port of Silverlight or Second Life. How do I read the content?
17:32:31 <IanJ> Jonas: We already have several interesting extension mechanisms.
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17:32:47 <raman> larry --- java packages --- gues who wrote code in package com.ms --- hint: domain ms.com is owned by Morgan Stanley --
17:32:55 <IanJ> Jonas: We need to ask the question "what do we need DE for?" The HTML 5 spec is good enough for some use cases. E.g., the ability to use microdata, or rel values.
17:33:19 <masinter> hsivonen, your use of "delegate": who exactly is doing the delgation? And what is the threshold for "substantial"?
17:33:20 <tantek> Jonas: "We already have microdata, we already have the ability to add new rel values, we have a rel-profile proposal"
17:33:23 <IanJ> Jonas: You can use profiles to ground names (in HTML 4)
17:33:47 <IanJ> Jonas: If you want to add other elements, write a specification. I think that's a good way for people to extend the language where we want people to experiment or add functionality to the Web platform.
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17:34:03 <benadida> seems to me Jonas is ignoring a bunch of clear evidence for DE: Google, Yahoo, and others creating their own vocabularies and then later, serendipitously, coming together on a subset.
17:34:04 <IanJ> Jonas: Adding a feature to the Web platform should not be taken lightly; we suffer from poorly defined features.
17:34:38 <benadida> isn't html5 trying to kill @profile, btw?
17:34:39 <hsivonen> masinter, delegated away from a standard-implementing engine. substantial if I can't make sense of content without an extension processor.
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17:35:07 <IanJ> Jonas: Tremendous cost to a poorly desgined feature -- we want people to collaborate, review, and integrate into the core web platform.
17:35:18 <arun> benadida, don't you think those very use cases will gravitate to microdata as well?  Is there anything *intrinsic* about the use of a namespaced solution?
17:35:28 <IanJ> Jonas: It's not a problem for scenarios where you just want local extensions; small group of people; in that case, you don't need to worry about name collisions.
17:35:36 <Julian> benadida, it did, so far
17:35:42 <myakura> isn't manu working on the proposal for adding @profile?
17:35:47 <IanJ> Jonas: If we want the whole web to use it, we should work on integration.
17:36:16 <IanJ> Jonas: what would be nice is to do what css does - if you want to do a local extension, here's how you do so (using "-token-" prefix)
17:36:30 <rubys> manu's draft: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0103.html
17:36:47 <raman> Arun, it always scares me when email threads go down the road of "I dont like X", let's make it difficult to do X; let's make X impossible, for if it were possible, people might use it :-) that's my short summary of the namespaces debate on the public mailing list
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17:36:58 <IanJ> [Questions of clarification between debaters]
17:37:14 <IanJ> Tony: Do you think consistency between the 2 serializations is important?
17:37:18 <masinter> Let's get rid of seatbelts in cars because we don't want to have any accidents.
17:37:22 <raman> Arun, it always scares me when email threads go down the road of "I dont like X", let's make it difficult to do X; let's make X impossible, for if it were possible, people might use it :-) that's my short summary of the namespaces debate on the public mailing list
17:37:27 <benadida> arun - microdata might be useful, though it stinks of NIH. HTML5 could have used RDFa syntax without namespaces (which wouldn't fulfill all of the use cases, but at least wouldn't be silly reinvention.)
17:37:34 <IanJ> Jonas: There is value to consistency. At the same time, looking at the documents people write today, many more are written in HTML than in XMl.
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17:38:00 <IanJ> Jonas: HTML has been much more popular. I don't want to make the 2 the same. First of all, choice is good. But second, the XML world made some mistakes, and I think xml namespaces is one of them.
17:38:12 <IanJ> Jonas: Consistency is nice, but things aren't always that simple.
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17:38:30 <IanJ> Jonas to Tony: How concerned are you about breaking compatibility with existing documents.
17:39:02 <IanJ> Jonas: Because browsers today in the html serialization, ns attributes are ignored, .....there's a lot of content that therefore relies on them being ignored.
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17:39:10 <spynifex> Hi there
17:39:13 <IanJ> ...do we have data that show that it will be ok to turn on ns support?
17:39:31 <IanJ> Tony: We do have some data, and there would be some problems, so we need to manage the compatibility.
17:40:07 <IanJ> Tony: I don't think that with prefixed element names, compatibility concerns pose as big a risk.
17:40:46 <IanJ> Jonas: One concern is that javascript libraries may want to add names and their might be collisions there.
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17:41:01 <IanJ> ...but libraries add properties to the global object...there's a situation where you might have name collisions. 
17:41:11 <hsivonen> would MS ship their proposal across all the modes of IE9?
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17:41:19 <IanJ> ..but we haven't seen it in practice; with the exception of the dollar name, but there it was somewhat intentional.
17:41:36 <IanJ> ...since js libraries have shown that they can deal with sharing a ns without name collisions, I don't think we should worry about it.
17:41:53 <IanJ> Tony: Js gives the end user more flexibility in resolving this than markup does.
17:42:14 <IanJ> ...they typically put functionality in a global object. And they work fine if you rename that object something else (aliasing).
17:42:27 <IanJ> ...eg, I can run multiple versions of jquery at the same time by using aliasins.
17:42:29 <benadida> "js libraries have shown that they can deal with sharing a ns without name collisions" is simply not what I've seen from extensive JavaScript injection into web pages.
17:42:36 <IanJ> ...I don't think we have that flexibility automatically with just markup.
17:43:14 <IanJ> Tony: I was wondering, Jonas, whether  you think there should be different requirements for different types of authors.
17:43:39 <Rotan> Yes, page authors are in a different class. Adding DISelect to HTML 5, for example, is a problem without some name management solution.
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17:43:51 <IanJ> Jonas: Yes. browsers have a larger responsibility for not injecting crap into the namespace of what they support. We have seen that when browser vendors inject features, they get picked up, and browser vendors end up having to support it.
17:44:03 <IanJ> Jonas: So the bar should be very high for browser vendors to add extensions.
17:44:23 <IanJ> Jonas: For js libraries, I think the bar should be slightly lower, though they might have similar concerns as browser vendors about uptake.
17:44:37 <IanJ> Jonas: I'm relucting to impose any constraints on page authors, who do what they want anyway.
17:44:48 <IanJ> Jonas: I think we should expect people will use their own elements and attributes.
17:45:05 <IanJ> Jonas: I am happy we've added a mechanism for adding attributes: the @data attribute.
17:45:12 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
17:45:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
17:45:25 <IanJ> Henry: Thank you, debaters.
17:45:41 <IanJ> Henry: Now to the floor.
17:46:04 <IanJ> Henry: I will try to keep threads going (over strict mic order)
17:46:20 <IanJ> Julian Reschke: Two comments.
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17:46:53 <IanJ> Julian: the fact that you have to pass tuples to the API is an APi issue, not a ns issue.
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17:47:08 <IanJ> Julian: The HTML WG could add APIs to pass namespaced element names.
17:47:27 <IanJ> Julian: Second point - bad extensions are deployed whether we have DE or not. E.g., we have canvas.
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17:48:06 <IanJ> Jonas: Regarding ns tuple: yes, it might be possible via APIs; but haven't seen a proposal on this; might not be so straightforward.
17:48:47 <IanJ> Jonas: Also relucting to add a third set of APIs for this access...the second round of APIs has not been that popular. Most people use "createElement"
17:49:06 <IanJ> ...people are very ns-agnostic.
17:49:26 <IanJ> ..we made a firefox change recently (moving things to html ns from null ns ) and very few bug reports resulted.
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17:49:41 <IanJ> Tony: There was some discussion about the means of combining ns+ local name into a single string.
17:50:00 <IanJ> ...I don't feel a new API would be necessary, but I don't think it would add complexity if we did.
17:50:12 <IanJ> ...ideally an API would be a single string access into the tuple anyhow.
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17:50:47 <IanJ> Liam Quin (XML Activity Lead): Over the past year I've been talking to a lot of people in the XML community.
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17:51:03 <IanJ> Liam: We can't break XML; it's very widely used. And people rely on it a lot.
17:51:08 <IanJ> Liam: But we can add things.
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17:51:40 <IanJ> Liam: I asked what we might add to XML in a way that would work with HTMl.
17:51:43 <rubys> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/08-quin-balisage-namespaces/
17:52:04 <IanJ> Liam: The "unobtrusive namespace proposal" allows mashups.
17:52:22 <IanJ> Liam: You have an optional file that a browser could go off and fetch, which defines what ns the elements are in.
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17:52:33 <Rotan> Would there be a way for a page to override Liam's proposed external doc of namespace settings?
17:52:43 <IanJ> Liam: A browser would not ordinarily have to go get anything; a browser behaves as though it had already loaded the file.
17:52:52 <IanJ> Liam: This proposal solves some of the problems identified here.
17:53:14 <IanJ> Liam: Regarding name collisions, it lets you say what "foo" you mean; but does not let you use two different "foo" elements from two ns in the same document.
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17:53:29 <IanJ> Liam: For that case, I would just use xml namespaces.
17:53:37 <IanJ> Liam: There is also an ISO proposal to address this.
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17:54:09 <IanJ> Henry: I'd like the debaters to address the implicit question: if the overhead of using xml namespaces were reduced, would that make a difference?
17:54:18 <timbl> Rotan, presumably.... maybe they should cascade ..    like CSS .. oh maybe we should use css ..    svg a { background: #ffe; namespace "http://www.w3.org/..svg" }
17:54:53 <Rotan> Tim, exactly what I had in mind.
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17:55:08 <IanJ> Jonas: I don't know off the top of my head. You'll still have a tuple as the identifying name. You'll still have a disconnect where people talk about names using one label, but it remains this tuple.
17:55:27 <IanJ> Jonas: Sounds interesting; I'd like to analyze the problems we are seeing and which problems it addresses or not.
17:55:36 <Rotan> Namespace-sheets, in addition to style-sheets :)
17:55:42 <IanJ> Jonas: The proposal does seem to address the problem of copying from one doc to another.
17:55:43 <dom> -> http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol3/html/Quin01/BalisageVol3-Quin01.html Automatic XML Namespaces
17:56:12 <IanJ> Jonas: Sound "better" but don't know yet if "quite there."
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17:56:32 <IanJ> Henry: Anyone else want to speak to making xml namespaces "more palatable"
17:56:41 <IanJ> Jonas: Have you submitted the proposal to the HTML WG?
17:56:48 <IanJ> Liam: I've submitted it to the HTML Coordination Group.
17:56:56 <Liam> [yes via the hypertext coordination group]
17:57:05 <DanC> liam, the hypertext CG isn't a technical forum. very different from the HTML WG
17:57:11 <hsivonen> why via a secret group?
17:57:12 <IanJ> Rotan Hanrahan: Friendly amendment --- you could use a sort of CSS cascade to simplify the namespace problem (going from explicit ns to default ns)
17:57:33 <IanJ> Larry Masinter: The topic is DE in general, though we've focused more narrowly on element/attribute extensibility.
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17:57:45 <Roger> Roger says he agrees with Julian.
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17:57:55 <IanJ> Larry: I would like to express support for extensibility more generally; this has allowed creativity on the Web.
17:58:14 <Roger> me says he agrees with Julian (sorry)
17:58:49 <IanJ> Larry: There's a political issue hiding behind a technical issue. The technical one is "how do you spell X" but the political one is "who has the authority?" For example, brand issues.
17:58:59 <IanJ> Larry: This problem addressed through mechanisms like registries.
17:59:23 <IanJ> Larry: we need to come to the conclusion of what W3C wants the political solution to be; the technical solution will follow.
17:59:50 <IanJ> Jonas: I agree that DE elsewhere [than elements and attributes; scribe thinks] is interesting. E.g., the microdata proposal.
17:59:59 <raman> we should create the PAG (Political Architecture Group) ---  name intentionally chosen since PAG  has always raised the spectre of a "patent advisory group"
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18:00:41 <IanJ> Jonas: On the question of "who gets to decide"; we're biased---browser vendors or UA vendors decide. What they implement is ultimately what people can use.
18:00:51 <John_Boyer> One reason that XML namespaces are based on URIs is because it allowed the W3C to punt the registry issue elsewhere. If W3C ran a registry, then perhaps namespaces could be simplifed
18:01:06 <IanJ> Jonas: though it is also true that browser vendors will follow what a lot of authors do.
18:01:32 <IanJ> Tony: In terms of the political issue, it's broader than just user agents. Who gets to extend? Impact of browser extensions has a big impact.
18:01:34 <Zakim> +??P0
18:01:49 <shadi> zakim, ? is me
18:01:49 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
18:01:51 <skfet> what's this chan about ?
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18:02:17 <IanJ> Ralph Swick: I heard more agreement among debaters than I expected. I heard agremeent on extensibility, and also distributed extensibility.
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18:02:28 <IanJ> Ralph: However, clients of HTML are not just browsers. there are other clients.
18:02:52 <IanJ> Ralph: Tony raised an interesting point about validation. One thing that has held us back has been a lack of a framework that supports ad-hoc extensions.
18:03:06 <IanJ> Ralph: We addressed that in XML using XMl schema languages to do mixed-markup validation.
18:03:31 <IanJ> Ralph: How do we register extensions?
18:03:48 <arun> That's easy -- it goes in the global namespace ;-)
18:04:07 <IanJ> ..things that push info into attributes moves the ability to validate outside our generic validator to extension-specific validation.
18:04:37 <IanJ> Ralph: on the question of registration...if we use dns, that's a form of registry, if we use a wiki, that's another.
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18:05:12 <IanJ> Ralph: There's a subtle difference - whether I'm forced to publicize that I'm using an extension (even one in a private Intranet), would I be forced to use a central registry v hiding it behind the DNS?
18:05:37 <IanJ> Tony: Ideally, in a scenario like you described, you should not have to go do a central registry.
18:05:56 <IanJ> ..you do need the ability to resolve conflicts if they exist...but going to a central registry for private extensions is asking to much.
18:06:20 <IanJ> Jonas: There are private extension mechanisms in CSS, HTTP. Having something like that could be useful here.
18:06:45 <IanJ> ...help avoid collisions, but don't need to tell anyone you are doing it. You should not have to go to a registry to use such an extension.
18:06:46 <Rotan> "Experimental" names have an awkward habit of becoming permanent.
18:07:21 <Yves> registries imply persistence issues
18:07:23 <IanJ> Steven Pemberton: I was on a panel in 2003...this panel is an extension of that one. I gave a talk where I suggested that we needed unobtrusive namespaces; glad to see that idea reborn.
18:07:51 <IanJ> Steven: I work in a community that uses DE in HTMl all the time. We know what the advantages are. But the community is bimodal.
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18:08:07 <IanJ> Steven: Seems in this case, the solution should serve both communities, without exclusing one.
18:08:30 <IanJ> Tantek Celik: Tony, you brought a proposal to the HTML WG. 
18:08:32 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/tp-steven-web/
18:08:59 <Steven> s/exclusing/excluding/
18:09:08 <IanJ> tantek: My suggestion to you is that if you believe in XML, resurrect HTML 2, introduce what you want, and register a new mime type, and offer it as an alternative to HTML 5.
18:09:14 <IanJ> Tony: You are definitely entitled to your opinion.
18:09:19 <annevk> s/HTML 2/XHTML 2/
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18:09:53 <IanJ> Henry: We are down to matters of opinion. There are two main costs to porting XML into the HTML universe.
18:10:18 <IanJ> Henry: Cost at the API level of managing tuples; cost at the syntax level managing issues there .
18:10:26 <IanJ> Henry: So "is the benefit worth the cost?"
18:10:35 <IanJ> Henry: And there are several proposals to reduce the cost.
18:10:49 <Zakim> - +46.7.06.02.aaaa
18:10:50 <IanJ> Henry: This has been useful in moving the discussion forward. Thank you.
18:10:52 <IanJ> <break>
18:10:57 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
18:10:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
18:11:04 <MikeSmith> s/mime type/mime type for non-draconian XML handling/
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18:16:39 <unl> MikeSmith: draconian error handling is *not* prescribed by the xml spec. it's an interpretation issue. the YSOD is a mozilla problem. see webkit getting it right with non-wellformed xhtml files
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18:28:34 <Steven> Scribe: Steven Pemberton
18:28:41 <Steven> Scribenick: Steven
18:29:05 <Steven> Topic: Maintaining a Healthy Internet Ecosystem -- Challenges to an Open Internet Infrastructure
18:30:23 <Steven> Moderator: Leslie Daigle, Internet Society  Presenters:  John Curran (ARIN) David Conrad (ICANN) Lisa Dusseault (IETF)
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18:36:49 <Steven> LD: Focus - to talk about managing internet for common good
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18:37:57 <Steven> LD: Success is due to open standards, freely accessible processes, transparent governance
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18:38:20 <Steven> ... internet must remain open for the next big thing
18:38:30 <Steven> ... ecosystem
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18:39:09 <Steven> ... standards, resource management, infrastructure, users, organisations that build capacity
18:39:18 <Kai> Kai has joined #tpac
18:40:00 <Steven> ... who does what really?
18:40:18 <Steven> ... spider diagram (just one perspective)
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18:41:50 <tantek> For the record, my question / proposal at end of "Distributed Extensibility" session was intended seriously (not sarcastically), to enable/allow/encourage exploration of multiple options by strongly interested parties.
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18:41:56 <Steven> ... education and capactity building sub diagram
18:42:15 <Steven> ... users sub diagram
18:42:26 <Steven> ... policy development sub-diagram
18:42:50 <tantek> "important role to play in meatspace"
18:43:02 <marie> [slides at http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/20091104-InternetEcosystem-Intro.pdf]
18:43:24 <Steven> ... Naming and addressing sub-diagram
18:43:45 <Steven> ... open standards sub-diagram
18:43:56 <tantek> marie - are source slides available? e.g. in HTML (these look like unordered lists) and/or SVG?
18:44:25 <Steven> ... shared global services
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18:44:29 <marie> tantek - just pdf
18:44:37 <marie> linked from the agenda page
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18:45:34 <Steven> ... ... Today's panel, 3 pieces of the diagram represented - IETF, ICANN, IRIN
18:45:43 <Steven> s/IRIN/ARIN/
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18:46:21 <Steven> Panellist Lisa Dusseault, IETF Applications area director [LD2]
18:46:39 <shepazu> the slides were very professional
18:46:39 <Steven> LD2: W3C and IETF do work well together
18:47:10 <marie> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/IETF-tpac09.pdf
18:47:25 <Steven> ... Mark Nottingham is our coordinator at W3C
18:47:55 <Steven> ... DanC and PLH are good contacts
18:48:21 <Steven> [slide: hwo to talk to us]
18:48:25 <glazou> IanJ: 
18:48:25 <glazou> 
18:48:26 <Steven> s/hwo/how/
18:48:40 <glazou> IanJ, I'll need you miniDVI again for my lightning talk
18:48:40 <nick> nick has joined #tpac
18:48:59 <Steven> [slide: we have a lot in common]
18:49:14 <plh> --> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ietf-w3c/ W3C/IETF liaison mailing list archive
18:49:28 <Steven> [Slide: The rest of the world]
18:49:45 <hbj> hbj has joined #tpac
18:49:52 <Steven> [Slide: Plan for]
18:51:18 <Steven> [Slide: Challenges]
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18:54:00 <Steven> David Conrad, ICANN
18:54:18 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #TPAC
18:54:24 <Steven> DC: Also at IANA
18:54:27 <marie> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/IANA-tpac09.pdf
18:54:51 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #tpac
18:54:53 <Steven> [Slide: Openness]
18:55:34 <Steven> [Slide: Multiple personalities]
18:56:08 <Hideki> Hideki has joined #tpac
18:56:43 <timely> <http://www.icann.org/en/transparency/>
18:56:47 <Steven> [Slide: Multiple personalities 2]
18:57:54 <DanC> MOU = Memorandum of Understanding
18:57:58 <Steven> [Slide: IANA Functions]
18:58:29 <mauro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorandum_of_understanding
18:58:49 <Steven> DC: about 1000 registries, some which have 4 or 5 requests per day
18:58:49 <Ileana> Ileana has joined #TPAC
18:59:10 <Steven> [Slide: Openness in IANA Functions]
19:00:56 <nord_c> nord_c has joined #tpac
19:00:57 <Steven> [Slide: Transparency]
19:01:23 <tantek> could scribes expand acronyms? many are having trouble following
19:01:49 <Steven> [Slide: Accountability]
19:01:55 <Eliot_Graff> Eliot_Graff has joined #tpac
19:02:02 <mth> mth has joined #tpac
19:02:11 <timely> SLA=Service Level Agreement
19:02:46 <Claes1> Claes1 has joined #tpac
19:03:02 <Steven> [Slide: Summary]
19:03:29 <Steven> DC: We are trying to be more open
19:03:38 <Steven> ... our website is getting better
19:04:12 <jallan> jallan has joined #tpac
19:04:25 <Steven> John Curran: Arin
19:04:37 <Steven> JC: I will give you years of terror
19:04:41 <marie> [no slides]
19:04:50 <timely> ... a regional internet registry
19:04:55 <Steven> ... ARIN is a regional IRI assignment entity
19:05:01 <timely> ... involved in BGP routing
19:05:10 <Arron> Arron has joined #tpac
19:05:13 <timely> ... one of the founders
19:05:19 <mauro> ARIN --> American Registry for Internet Numbers https://www.arin.net/
19:05:19 <Steven> ... I was a founder, moved to CEO
19:05:23 <timely> ... we have a transition coming up
19:05:30 <timely> ... 2^32 ipv4 addresses
19:05:37 <timely> ... we have been giving them out
19:05:49 <timely> ... we used to give out class A, class B, class C
19:05:58 <Steven> scribenick: timely
19:05:59 <timely> ... we've switched to giving out <slash-notation>
19:06:02 <maxf> maxf has joined #tpac
19:06:14 <timely> ... we've been going through 10-12 slices a year
19:06:22 <timely> ... we're down to 28 slices left 
19:06:29 <timely> ... we have 717 days left
19:06:35 <timely> ... and we will run out of ipv4 addresses
19:06:43 <timely> ... when we run out of addresses
19:06:54 <timely> ... people won't be able to connect new servers
19:06:58 <timely> ... we're not really running out
19:07:05 <timely> ... we're running out of unassigned addresses
19:07:21 <timely> ... every 6-12 months regional groups come asking for addresses
19:07:27 <timely> [or was that isps]
19:07:51 <timely> ... there are ranges which are available because they can be torn down (dial up ranges)
19:08:17 <timely> some addresses can be exchanged by offering customers savings for returning addresses
19:08:28 <timely> ... every ISP will have to start reclaiming addresses
19:08:39 <timely> ... there are a lot of addresses assigned to companies that don't exist anymore
19:08:53 <timely> ... some original granted groups have turned in early range grants
19:09:07 <timely> ... there are 6-12 of those perhaps left 
19:09:16 <timely> ... but this won't help for much time
19:09:21 <timely> ... at some point, we will run out
19:09:30 <timely> ... option 1. we put a sign out, "the internet is full, go away"
19:09:37 <timely> ... this is actually real simple
19:09:41 <timely> ... it's perfect
19:09:50 <timely> ... there are some equity and fairness issues
19:09:57 <timely> ... some countries are only now coming to the table
19:10:04 <timely> ... and it's unfair to them
19:10:12 <timely> ... option 2. ipng
19:10:18 <timely> ... what you now call ipv6 
19:10:24 <timely> ... it has 2^128 addresses
19:10:29 <timely> ... which is a lot of addresses
19:10:36 <timely> ... i won't try to enumerate them
19:10:49 <timely> ... but we can still spend them at the same rate
19:11:00 <timely> ... but this isn't enough
19:11:04 <timely> ... because it's not about packets
19:11:17 <timely> ... there's a need to get packets connected
19:11:22 <claudio> claudio has joined #tpac
19:11:25 <timely> ... and most servers only have ipv4 addresses
19:11:32 <Nikunj> Nikunj has joined #tpac
19:11:35 <timely> ... we have 2 years to get ever web server an ipv6 addresss
19:11:37 <timely> s/sss/ss
19:11:40 <timely> [shouted!]
19:11:47 <mac> mac has joined #tpac
19:11:49 <DanC> *we have 2 years to get ever web server an ipv6 address* , he says
19:11:54 <timely> ... i'm now telling you that it is your job that we get every server an ipv6 address
19:11:59 <timely> ... in addition to an ipv4 address
19:12:05 <timely> ... if everyone were to do that
19:12:15 <timely> ... we could connect new users with just an ipv6 address
19:12:29 <timely> ... we've looked at the number of servers with ipv6 addresses
19:12:31 <timely> ... it's a small number
19:12:38 <mac> mac has joined #tpac
19:12:40 <timely> [scribe pauses to change nick]
19:12:53 <timeless> ScribeNick: timeless
19:12:54 <fo> fo has joined #tpac
19:13:01 <DanC> doesn't youtube account for a majority of IP traffic already? google has IPv6 deployed, no?
19:13:03 <timeless> questioner: why can't you assign everyone an ipv6 address
19:13:06 <DanC> 2% sounds low
19:13:15 <dom> google has IPv6
19:13:17 <timeless> speaker: the problem is that you have to give people routing information
19:13:29 <timeless> ... you have to get the ipv6 address configured on your server
19:13:55 <timeless> the problem is getting the address, getting the configuration, configuring your server
19:14:16 <timeless> questioner: couldn't software automatically assign the ipv6 addresses to servers
19:14:24 <timeless> speaker: when you get addresses from your server
19:14:37 <timeless> ... you get them from a block which the ISP manages
19:14:57 <timeless> ... this is managed by address blocks
19:15:04 <timeless> ... which arranges routing blocks
19:15:13 <AnnB> AnnB has joined #tpac
19:15:25 <timeless> ... ideally you get v6 addresses according to network topography
19:15:27 <caribou> s/questioner/Elika Etemad
19:15:47 <timeless> other-person: the issue is getting the full scale deployment of a new internet
19:15:54 <DanC> I think the question was: do the server owners have to start this change, or can it be done for them?
19:16:09 <caribou> s/other-person/Leslie Daigle
19:16:14 <Claes> Claes has joined #tpac
19:16:23 <timeless> speaker: this wireless network gives you a v4 address
19:16:34 <timeless> ... a lot of you have mac books, i can see the logo
19:16:44 <timeless> ... the router might give out a v6 address
19:16:57 <timeless> Leslie: is this a general question of the room, or do we move on
19:17:01 <timeless> [room]: move on
19:17:02 <caribou> s/speaker/John Curran
19:17:17 <timeless> new-questioner: when i talk to people about ipv6
19:17:22 <Rotan> http://www.subnetonline.com/pages/subnet-calculators/ipv4-to-ipv6-converter.php
19:17:25 <timeless> ... i find that there wasn't a lot that people could read about
19:17:27 <brutzman> brutzman has joined #TPAC
19:17:32 <mauro> s/new-questioner/TimBL/
19:17:34 <timeless> ... i found mit and google have v6 addresses
19:17:50 <timeless> ... for a while your computer could cheat and tunnel to a special place
19:17:55 <timeless> ... using a complicated map
19:18:07 <timeless> ... and we could deem ipv4 addresses to be part of ipv6 addresses
19:18:08 <marisol> marisol has joined #tpac
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19:18:20 <timeless> John: what matters is public servers
19:18:29 <timeless> ... the ones that can be seen by the outside world
19:18:35 <timeless> ... at MIT all addresses are public facig
19:18:39 <timeless> s/cig/cing/
19:18:52 <timeless> ... you can't get ipv6 until your network team gives you ipv6 connectivity
19:18:58 <timeless> ... or if you setup a tunnel
19:19:21 <timeless> TBL: if i work with my network team
19:19:36 <timeless> ... then when i click on a link, there's no guarantee i can get to a v4 ?
19:19:47 <timeless> John: when you click on a link with v6, you get to v6
19:19:58 <timeless> ... but some groups are working on Carrier Grade NAT
19:20:06 <timeless> ... for reaching ipv4 addresses
19:20:17 <timeless> ... but we don't know if Carrier Grade NAT will scale
19:20:23 <timeless> new-speaker-3: 
19:20:38 <timeless> ... I work for a small company
19:20:42 <caribou> s/new-speaker-3/Jeremy Carroll
19:20:44 <timeless> ... I'm trying to understand what you want us to do
19:20:54 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #TPAC
19:21:01 <timeless> ... it sounds like we need to make sure our isp provides ipv6 addresses and ipv6 connectivity
19:21:11 <timeless> ... and we should ask our isp these questions
19:21:13 <gond> gond has joined #tpac
19:21:13 <timeless> John: steps
19:21:21 <timeless> ... 1. ask isp to turn on ipv6 connectivity
19:21:32 <timeless> ... 2. configure your servers with ipv6 addresses
19:21:39 <timeless> ... 3. make sure your software works with ipv6
19:21:46 <timeless> ... 4. double check your firewall still works
19:21:59 <timeless> ... that's what we need to do everywhere over the next few years
19:22:00 <Eliot_Graff> Eliot_Graff has left #tpac
19:22:14 <timeless> Leslie: open for questions
19:22:18 <timeless> new-speaker-4:
19:22:23 <timeless> [glazou]
19:22:32 <timeless> ... first statement, don't use acronyms
19:22:41 <wiecha> wiecha has joined #tpac
19:22:44 <timeless> ... Daniel Glazman, disruptive innovations, cochair csswg
19:22:48 <caribou> s/new-speaker-4/Daniel Glazman
19:22:49 <timeless> new-speaker-5:
19:22:50 <Tobias> Can I see this streamed somewhere?
19:22:57 <timeless> ... i'd like to suggest a new approach for this room
19:23:06 <timeless> ... think about from an opportunity side
19:23:15 <shawn> Janina
19:23:17 <timeless> ... what kind of web can we build if we're absolutely profligate with ...
19:23:28 <timeless> ... it seems we have to be limited with out thinking today
19:23:30 <timbl> Tobias, no we aren't streaming it.   Yes, would be nice.
19:23:30 <caribou> s/new-speaker-5/Janina
19:23:32 <timeless> [speaker fades]
19:23:48 <timeless> ... what kind of services can we setup...
19:23:55 <timeless> ... monitoring systems for people who are aging
19:24:01 <pbaggia> pbaggia has left #tpac
19:24:03 <Tobias> timbl: Ok thanks.
19:24:08 <timeless> ... so you can setup servers for each tile in a kitchen
19:24:16 <timeless> ... so you can see if grandma is dragging
19:24:23 <timeless> Leslie: thank you for looking at the possitive
19:24:33 <timeless> ... indeed there are industries looking at the benefits
19:24:33 <caribou> s/Janina/Janina Sajka
19:24:38 <timeless> Doug S: 
19:24:41 <timeless> ... where are the tutorials
19:24:45 <timeless> John: www.arin.net
19:24:48 <timeless> ... click on ipv6 info
19:24:55 <timeless> Doug S: you should tweet that
19:24:58 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
19:24:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
19:25:00 <DanC> https://www.arin.net/knowledge/about_resources/v6/v6.html
19:25:09 <timeless> Liam Q: w3c
19:25:12 <timeless> ... thank you for coming
19:25:14 <timeless> ... thank you to the panel
19:25:22 <timeless> ... the big question is what should w3 do about this
19:25:24 <timbl> http://www.getipv6.info/index.php/Main_Page
19:25:26 <timeless> ... how can we move forward
19:25:34 <YolandaG> YolandaG has joined #tpac
19:25:34 <timbl> http://www.getipv6.info/index.php/Main_Page   is IPV6 wiki
19:25:35 <masao__> masao__ has joined #tpac
19:25:37 <timeless> ... I've checked and my server has ipv6
19:25:43 <timeless> ... but i don't know how to test or enter it into a browser
19:25:47 <timeless> Leslie: thanks
19:25:53 <timeless> ... if you thought xmlns was ugly
19:26:00 <timeless> ... you can look at ipv6 literals
19:26:10 <timeless> someone: i think html5 defines ipv6
19:26:16 <timeless> s/defines ipv6/ipv7/
19:26:18 <timeless> [laughter]
19:26:25 <Julian> s/someone/Ian Jacobs/
19:26:29 <DanC> do we have an audio recording of the "we have 2 years to get every..." soundbite? 
19:26:29 <timeless> Ralph: so....
19:26:37 <timeless> ... I heard John give us a clear challenge
19:26:44 <tlr> /me slaps Julian
19:26:48 <timeless> ... and I hear Lisa give us a clear [??]
19:27:00 <timeless> speaker3: ...
19:27:06 <timeless> ... one of the things icann is working on
19:27:08 <tlr> s/speaker3/DavidConrad/
19:27:14 <timeless> ... is IDN
19:27:17 <maraki> maraki has joined #tpac
19:27:21 <timeless> ... the approach IETF has taken for internationalization
19:27:32 <timeless> ... is interesting in the sense that it requires parsing of web pages
19:27:39 <timeless> ... in terms of recognizing IDN domain names
19:27:44 <timeless> ... and translating that into punycode
19:27:50 <timeless> ... and that provides technical challenges
19:27:56 <timeless> ... that's an area that developers should look at
19:28:06 <timeless> ... if they haven't been working on it already
19:28:12 <timeless> Leslie: Larry do you want to plug your work
19:28:19 <timeless> Larry: there's already an RFC on IRIs
19:28:26 <timeless> ... we're working on trying to update that
19:28:35 <timeless> ... there's an amazing goal that i'm not sure everyone shares
19:28:43 <timeless> ... that web addresses should work on ...
19:28:51 <timeless> ... there are 9 groups
19:29:08 <timeless> ... and perhaps we should create out of the 9, one committee to rule them all
19:29:10 <timeless> ... and bind them
19:29:22 <timeless> ... we're having a meeting in Hiroshima to talk about this
19:29:29 <timeless> ... i've met with internationalization core group
19:29:36 <timeless> ... and [lost-group]
19:29:43 <timeless> ... and there's a dinner plan [lost-details]
19:29:53 <timeless> Roger: i'm curious...
19:30:01 <timeless> ... historically, how did y2k become generally recognized
19:30:07 <DanC> I tweeted the 2 years soundbite: http://twitter.com/dckc/status/5428107498
19:30:09 <timeless> ... getting governments on board and trying to fix it
19:30:18 <timeless> John: an indirect answer
19:30:24 <timeless> ... ipv4 has been compared to y2k a lot
19:30:29 <timeless> ... y2k had advantages
19:30:34 <timeless> ... you knew when it was going to happen
19:30:39 <timeless> ... you didn't know what was going to happen
19:30:42 <timeless> ... don't laugh
19:30:54 <timeless> ... when you talk to people
19:30:58 <timeless> ... they ask when it will happen
19:31:11 <timeless> ... the answer moves around
19:31:16 <timeless> ... with y2k
19:31:22 <timeless> ... you could test your machine yourself
19:31:25 <shepazu> https://www.arin.net/knowledge/about_resources/v6/v6.html is a terrible address to try to spread the word.... I suggest http://www.arin.net/ipv6.html
19:31:36 <timeless> ... you could put a machine in a lab, change the date, and watch it roll over
19:31:44 <timeless> ... the problem with ipv4
19:31:56 <timeless> ... is that you don't know what's going to happen when someone comes along
19:32:03 <timeless> ... and is only given an ipv6 address
19:32:04 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
19:32:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
19:32:08 <timeless> ... arin is working with a number of governments
19:32:12 <timeless> ... working with UN
19:32:15 <timeless> ... [and others]
19:32:28 <chaals> chaals has joined #tpac
19:32:29 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #tpac
19:32:30 <timeless> ... it's not going to get more attention until it is right upon them
19:32:36 <timeless> ... and that's 18 months away
19:32:39 <timeless> [applause]
19:32:50 <timeless> someone--: lightning talks
19:32:52 <W3C> W3C has joined #tpac
19:32:56 <timeless> ... you know the rule for lightning talks
19:33:00 <timeless> Marrie Clair:
19:33:05 <dond> exit
19:33:06 <timeless> ... first presenters now on stage
19:33:07 <timbl> Well, the US switched to digital TV .. but only  by offering free D-A converters to those who were left.
19:33:10 <timeless> ... 3 minutes
19:33:14 <caribou> s/Marrie Clair/Marie-Claire/
19:33:21 <dond> bye
19:33:21 <timeless> ... 
19:33:23 <caribou> s/someone--/Ralph
19:33:29 <Tobias> timeless: thank you for your effort
19:33:40 <mauro> countdown clock at http://www.glazman.org/countdown.html
19:33:45 <mauro> timeless++
19:33:53 <timeless> Marie-Claire: [... noise]
19:33:56 <IanJ> Speaker: Rotan Hanrahan
19:33:57 <mauro> that was awesome scribing!
19:34:07 <caribou> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:34:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html caribou
19:34:09 <jun> jun has joined #tpac
19:34:14 <timeless> Marie-Claire: ok... so lightning talks
19:34:18 <timeless> ... presenters will have a few minutes
19:34:22 <timeless> ... for their talk
19:34:26 <timeless> ... and then a 2 min discussion
19:34:33 <timeless> ... where we invite your questions at that time
19:34:34 <IanJ> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/dcci-LTtpac09.pdf Rotan slides
19:34:41 <timeless> lightning-one: 
19:34:44 <DanC> where's glazou's timer?
19:34:45 <timeless> ... projector problems
19:34:53 <timeless> [ url i won't type, sorry ]
19:35:03 <timeless> Marie-Claire: daniel glazman has this timer ...
19:35:08 <benjick> benjick has joined #tpac
19:35:10 <timeless> ... are you ready. start
19:35:18 <cheol> cheol has joined #tpac
19:35:18 <timeless> lightning-one: one web
19:35:22 <timeless> ... yes ... we understand ...
19:35:28 <timeless> ... but you don't get one representation
19:35:32 <timeless> ... if you get some mobile thing
19:35:37 <timeless> ... you get
19:35:43 <caribou> s/lightning-one/Rotan
19:35:49 <timeless> ... different views based on different 
19:35:49 <caribou> s/lightning-one/Rotan/g
19:36:02 <timeless> ... you get different experiences from different delivery contexts
19:36:11 <timeless> ... we have a device description repository
19:36:15 <timeless> ... OMA is working on this
19:36:26 <timeless> ... so server can see if you are in portrait mode/landscape
19:36:33 <timeless> ... so it can adapt accordingly
19:36:39 <timeless> ... the client can see if things are ok,
19:36:43 <timeless> ... is battery ok
19:36:48 <timeless> ... is codec installed
19:36:51 <rkuntsch> rkuntsch has joined #tpac
19:36:56 <timeless> ... DCCI is a specification on how to access that environemnt
19:36:59 <timeless> s/emnt/ment/
19:37:00 <marisol> marisol has joined #tpac
19:37:07 <timeless> ... DCCI is based on DOM tree
19:37:16 <timeless> ... it's implemented with all the things we expect from DOM
19:37:22 <timeless> ... it runs in parallel to DOM
19:37:34 <timeless> ... the spec for DCCI exists, you can look at it
19:37:40 <timeless> [uri not provided]
19:37:51 <timeless> Rotan: we found problems
19:37:57 <timeless> ... square peg-round-hole
19:37:58 <ArtB> Please note that Nokia here means "Nokia Research Center"
19:38:02 <timeless> ... something we learned from 
19:38:04 <timeless> ...
19:38:11 <timeless> ... read the wiki [uri ...]
19:38:23 <rlewis3> rlewis3 has joined #tpac
19:38:23 <timeless> http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/wiki/DCCI_Use_Cases_and_Requirements
19:38:27 <timeless> [screen dims]
19:38:31 <timeless> lightning-two:
19:38:43 <timeless> Bryan:
19:38:48 <timeless> ... we have some of this done
19:38:51 <glaser> glaser has joined #tpac
19:38:58 <timeless> ... UWA has Device Delivery Context (?)
19:39:05 <IanJ> Rotan: We have 2/3 of a pie!
19:39:05 <timeless> Rotan: 2/3 done, great
19:39:16 <timeless> Rotan: it's important for ...
19:39:21 <timeless> ... get in touch with UWA (?)
19:39:26 <timeless> lightning-two:
19:39:31 <Jeanne_> Jeanne_ has joined #tpac
19:39:38 <timbl> ... read the wiki
19:39:42 <timeless> otherq: 
19:39:44 <IanJ> Larry Masinter: What's the relation to CSS media queries/
19:39:57 <timeless> ScribeNick: IanJ 
19:40:09 <IanJ> Rotan: Media queries were put together a long time ago, dcci was created since then
19:40:12 <Kangchan> s/Device Delivery Context (?)/Delivery Context Ontology/
19:40:16 <IanJ> ..hope to hide some complexities from end users
19:40:22 <IanJ> ..might use media query mechanism
19:40:32 <IanJ> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/11-04-steven-backplane/ Charlie Wiecha slides delivered by Steven Pemberton
19:40:39 <markusm> markusm has joined #tpac
19:40:59 <wiecha> s/delivered/augmented and delivered
19:41:11 <IanJ> (slides show demos of compound docs)
19:41:34 <IanJ> Steven;
19:41:35 <IanJ> The Backplane Premise
19:41:35 <IanJ> Compound documents are easy to create, syntactically
19:41:35 <IanJ> Because of differences in processing models, the combinations can be difficult to manage.
19:42:18 <IanJ> Steven: The XG got together to see what overlapped; they did some implementation work
19:42:27 <IanJ> Steven: challenges: "Since mainstream browsers don't support compound documents in this way, what are the options for implementation?"
19:42:34 <IanJ> Options:
19:42:35 <IanJ>     *  Server-side 'Compilation' (eg Chiba, Orbeon)
19:42:35 <IanJ>     * Client-side transformation (+judicious Javascript) (eg XSLTForms)
19:42:35 <IanJ>     * Client-side implementation (Using XBL and/or Unobtrusive Javascript) (eg SVGWeb, AmpleSDK, Ubiquity, FormFaces)
19:42:45 <kaz> kaz has joined #tpac
19:43:06 <IanJ> [Demo of multi-source document]
19:43:14 <IanJ> Conclusion: In the light of the emerging trend to implement XML vocabularies in Unobtrusive Javascript libraries, we recommend work on standardising the interface between the libraries, so that vocabularies can work together seamlessly, and without prior negotiation.
19:43:38 <IanJ> [Questions]
19:44:05 <mmani> mmani has joined #tpac
19:44:08 <IanJ> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/XGR-app-backplane-20091030/ Final Backplane XG report
19:44:18 <IanJ> [Speaker: Dominique Hazael-Massieux]
19:44:23 <IanJ> Title: Cheatsheet for developers
19:44:38 <JF> JF has joined #tpac
19:44:43 <IanJ> -> http://dev.w3.org/2009/cheatsheet/ The Cheatsheet
19:45:06 <IanJ> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/11-tpac-cheatsheet/slides.svg Dom's slides on cheatsheet
19:45:49 <IanJ> [Dom demos the cheatsheet]
19:46:55 <IanJ> [Dom shows the cheatsheet tool gives access to info about wai quicktips, i18n tips, css properties, typography, more]
19:46:57 <Magnus> Magnus has joined #tpac
19:47:07 <IanJ> dom: open source, widget-ready, possible extensions.
19:47:23 <IanJ> dom: am looking for suggestions to make the tool more useful
19:48:12 <IanJ> [No questions]
19:48:17 <IanJ> Roger Cutler: Great!
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19:48:26 <IanJ> Speaker: Charles McCathieNevile
19:48:31 <DanC> hmm... I'm trying to look up "following-sibling" and losing.
19:48:33 <timeless> s/Great/How can you question it, it's Great/
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19:49:23 <IanJ> Title: "Opera Unite"
19:49:38 <IanJ> Charles: We said Opera would revolutionize the Web and we came up with a Web server.
19:49:42 <timeless> [laughter]
19:49:48 <IanJ> Charles: Opera handles IPv6!
19:49:51 <timeless> [Larry: does it have an ipv6 address]
19:49:55 <IanJ> Charles: How to make a widget...
19:50:09 <IanJ> [Slides not available yet]
19:50:14 <dom> DanC, I only have xpath function and operators, probably not xpath axis
19:50:23 <IanJ> Charles: We have a course on creating an Opera widget...will move it to "w3c" widget...need to add one line.
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19:50:33 <jjc> http://widsith.chaals.operaunite.com/
19:50:33 <IanJ> Charles: Opera unite is a personal web server.
19:51:08 <IanJ> Charles: "Disposable Web-serving"
19:51:18 <IanJ> Charles; Portable domain space in your browser.
19:51:34 <shawn> s/ wai quicktips/ web accessibility quicktips-WCAG 2 at a Glance, HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0/
19:51:35 <timeless> s/Charles;/Charlses:/
19:51:36 <IanJ> Charles: Easy for developers; create a conf file.
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19:51:41 <timeless> s/Charlses/Charles/
19:52:11 <IanJ> [Charles shows other things you can do with Opera Unite]
19:52:26 <raman> what namespace is config.xml in?
19:52:37 <IanJ> [Questions]
19:52:48 <IanJ> Steven Pemberton: Is the server running only when Opera is running?
19:53:12 <IanJ> Charles: Yes. It's stuff you only need in some situations; not an enterprise server. E.g., I don't need openid when my machine is turned off.
19:53:19 <IanJ> Speaker: Roger Cutler
19:53:33 <IanJ> Title: Semantic Web in the Oil & Gas Industry,
19:53:43 <jun> jun has joined #tpac
19:53:43 <IanJ> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/SWOG-LTtpac09.pdf Roger Cutler slides
19:54:00 <chaals> --> http://widsith.chaals.operaunite.com/webserver_2/content/slides/0911-tpac-unite.zip the 2.5MB that will overload me if everyone does it at once
19:54:40 <chaals> --> http://widsith.chaals.operaunite.com/webserver_2/content/slides/0911-tpac-unite the live version (until I turn off my laptop and stop caring and sharing :) )
19:54:55 <IanJ> Roger: I have gone from being skeptic about sem web in oil and gas to being an evangelist.
19:54:59 <jun> jun has joined #tpac
19:55:20 <IanJ> Roger: We have tons of data!
19:55:35 <IanJ> Roger: our subject matter experts spend most of their time doing information management badly.
19:56:08 <IanJ> Roger: Value proposition came from this apsect of semantic Web
19:56:41 <IanJ> Roger: We hosted a Workshop in 2008. Answered some questions on opportunities in Oil & Gas industry: demonstrated interest; but don't know how to move forward.
19:57:00 <benjick> Abusing the /me are we? :(
19:57:34 <IanJ> [Questions]
19:57:41 <timeless> Laurie: people from the semantic web community
19:57:51 <IanJ> Kai Scheppe: How did you get resources allocated for this effort?
19:57:59 <IanJ> Roger: We have a collaboration with CSOFT
19:58:11 <timeless> ScribeNick: timeless
19:58:18 <timeless> Laurie: Ahamud from ...
19:58:29 <IanJ> Speaker: Arnaud de Moissac (SFR)
19:58:34 <IanJ> s/Laurie/Marie/g
19:58:38 <timeless> s/Ahamud/Arnaud/
19:58:43 <IanJ> Title: United we(b and net) stand!
19:58:52 <timeless> Arnaud: ...
19:58:53 <caribou> s/Laurie/Marie
19:59:06 <IanJ> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/unitedWeb-LTtpac09.pdf Arnaud's slides
19:59:11 <timeless> [United We(b and Net) Stand]
19:59:23 <timeless> ... today sometime we can see ...
19:59:34 <timeless> ... net neutrality
19:59:41 <timeless> ... when you read ...
19:59:47 <timeless> ... you can see that people ask for... to have
19:59:52 <timeless> ... the most transparent ...
20:00:01 <timeless> ... What about collaboration?
20:00:07 <timeless> ... what we have to keep in mind...
20:00:08 <JereK> JereK has left #tpac
20:00:12 <timeless> ... is we will always have access issues
20:00:20 <timeless> ... because of mobile access networks
20:00:30 <timeless> ... you have to keep in mind mobile access equipment and routers
20:00:45 <timeless> ... you have to keep in mind that routers will always drop packets in an arbitrary web
20:00:59 <massimowww> massimowww has joined #tpac
20:01:04 <timeless> ... We don't have to add an optimizer to the network
20:01:21 <timeless> ... The web should be able to talk to the network about priority
20:01:35 <timeless> ... As Elisa said in the last talk about IETF
20:01:44 <timeless> ... we need collaboration between the web world and the network world
20:01:48 <timeless> ... the beauty of this system]
20:01:54 <timeless> s/]//
20:01:56 <timeless> ... in the first approach
20:02:00 <timeless> ... we can use only the browser
20:02:08 <timeless> ... that information is set in the css
20:02:20 <timeless> ... a web browser could use this information to get a better experience to the user
20:02:25 <timeless> ... Thank you
20:02:31 <timeless> Maurie: thanks Arnaud
20:02:41 <timeless> Ralph?:
20:02:48 <timeless> ... i wasn't clear if this was a work in progress
20:02:50 <timeless> ... or a proposal
20:02:57 <timeless> Arnaud: it's work in progress in my lab
20:03:01 <timeless> ... the idea of the lightning talk
20:03:05 <timeless> ... is to get your opinion
20:03:09 <timeless> ... does it make sense, is it stupid
20:03:20 <timeless> Maurie: yes, get in touch with our lightning talk speakers
20:03:25 <timeless> ... during the breaks, and discuss with them
20:03:32 <timeless> ... i guess it's time for lunch
20:03:32 <mauro> s/Maurie/Marie/
20:03:41 <timeless> Ralph: ok, thank you, and Lunch
20:03:47 <timeless> ... we'll reconvene in 90 mins
20:03:48 <Zakim> -shadi
20:04:11 <mauro> ==== ADJOURNED for the morning ====
20:04:31 <caribou> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:04:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html caribou
20:04:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html mauro
20:04:33 <Tobias> haha funny to see the quitting when everyone saw "lunch" :D
20:04:55 <caribou> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
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20:11:33 <Suresh> Can someone pls post the link to the talk on migration to IPv6?
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20:36:47 <richardschwerdtfe> must be a break
20:36:57 <Tobias> Yup, lunch I believe
20:37:07 <richardschwerdtfe> thanks
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21:09:06 <Zakim> +wiecha
21:09:21 <shadi> zakim, wiecha is really me
21:09:21 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
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21:16:32 <Tobias> tasty lunch? :)
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21:18:54 <Zakim> -shadi
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21:31:43 <Liam> Topic: privacy
21:31:50 <Liam> scribe: Liam
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21:32:19 <Liam> Rigo Wenning chairing the panel, gives short introduction on privacy...
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21:32:37 <Liam> Rigo: why do we care about privacy? For most people it's about spam, intrusive phone calls....
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21:32:49 <Liam> but it's a human right, it's in most declarations of human rights
21:33:06 <Liam> When I was working on law, I wondered about why we need it, got an answer, it's about autonomy
21:33:23 <DavidC> DavidC has joined #tpac
21:33:27 <Liam> if others know more about us then our ability to express our own opinion runs into trouble...
21:33:31 <glaser> glaser has joined #tpac
21:33:36 <Liam>  many difficulties with democratic process
21:33:43 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
21:33:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see MeetingRoom
21:33:54 <Liam> Privacy by design, collections of data...
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21:34:11 <Liam> On this panel we'll have privacy challenges, express concerns, and then we'll open the floor.
21:34:18 <jmorris> jmorris has joined #tpac
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21:34:31 <Liam> In the 2nd round we'll talk about remedies, how can we put Privacy by Design into the Web
21:34:33 <JF> JF has joined #tpac
21:34:35 <Liam> what are the challengies
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21:35:11 <IanJ>     *  Adam Barth (UC Berkeley)
21:35:11 <IanJ>     * Deirdre Mulligan (UC Berkeley School of Information)
21:35:11 <IanJ>     * Brad Templeton (Electronic Frontier Foundation)
21:35:11 <IanJ>     * Doug Turner (Mozilla)
21:35:11 <IanJ> 14:30
21:35:12 <IanJ> to
21:35:14 <IanJ> 15:30 	
21:35:16 <IanJ> s/14:30//
21:35:17 <Liam> [Rigo introduces panelists]
21:35:21 <Zakim> +[IBM]
21:35:22 <IanJ> s/15:30//
21:35:30 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
21:35:30 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
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21:35:57 <Liam> Adam: geolocation, technical way to let an application tell a server where you are
21:36:09 <ht> ht has joined #tpac
21:36:13 <Liam> ...a number of issues...
21:36:14 <glazou> s/Adam/Doug Turner
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21:36:24 <Liam> Web Apps typically don't know where you are
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21:36:41 <Liam> they can work out what cll towers are around you, your IP address, etc., but no way to translate that into anything meaningful
21:36:48 <Liam> so we all rely on service providers to do that for us
21:36:49 <glazou> chaals, ask the guys bottom-right of room ?
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21:36:57 <Liam> but that data is typically not free [zero-dollar].
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21:37:20 <Liam> so if the user browses the web, someone under the covers is doing reverse translation to a location, an address
21:37:28 <mac> mac has joined #tpac
21:37:32 <Liam> and the user isn't invloved, shouldn't be involved, in seeing that
21:37:37 <Kangchan> Kangchan has joined #tpac
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21:37:49 <Liam> so it's up to the implementors to uphold the users' privacy
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21:38:14 <Liam> at mozilla I do a whole bunch of device stuff, some things are really sensitive, geolocation, also camera
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21:38:42 <Liam> big privacy concerns with taking a picture and putting it on the Web with someone's mobile device
21:38:49 <Liam> we don't have a good model on the Web
21:39:02 <Liam> right now with iphone you get a dialogue to ask you if it's OK to use your location
21:39:38 <Liam> but you quickly want "grant all", and that's not good, neither is too many questions, and the user doesn't really know what's going on
21:39:52 <Liam> Many web pages today use iframes to embed ads, widgets...
21:40:36 <Liam> imagine you go to a popular web site & they use device access
21:40:59 <Liam> the user goes to the web site, or uses the app, and sees cnn.com or whatever, and the iframe will want to use the location or camera
21:41:19 <Liam> and the dialogue says, "can this site use the information" but the user won't generally notice there's an embedded iframe
21:41:34 <Liam> My suggestion was embedding iframes or embedded content from using device access
21:41:50 <Liam> [next speaker]
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21:41:59 <Liam> Brad Templeton, cloud applications & privacy
21:42:08 <Liam> [slide 2, explosion]
21:42:18 <Liam> [slide 3, pendulum]
21:42:50 <Liam> Web apps bring us back to timesharing
21:42:57 <Liam> [slide 4, Data out of your hands]
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21:43:22 <Liam> no "reasonable expectation of privacy'", no 4th amendment, if the data is out of your hands, e.g. on the cloud
21:43:28 <Liam> so it's like removing a line from the Bill of Rights
21:43:36 <Liam> [slide: 4th amendment, crossed out]
21:43:51 <Zakim> +??P3
21:43:57 <mauro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
21:44:02 <Liam> [slide: facebook reversed signup dynamic]
21:44:04 <shadi> zakim, ??p3 is me
21:44:04 <Zakim> +shadi; got it
21:44:42 <Liam> [slide: we're changing the balance (of how privacy flows)]
21:44:52 <Liam> People should be aware of what's happening
21:45:05 <Liam> [slide: no-one cares about privacy until after it's been invaded]
21:45:12 <Liam> [slide: Ease of use can be a bug!]
21:45:29 <Liam> All the shy people in the room please stand up
21:45:33 <Liam> they never defend their rights
21:45:40 <Liam> some people can't live with being watched
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21:46:27 <Liam> If you make it easy for someone to transfer all their data to another site, like the checkbox on facebook, it's easy to ask for, "please give me all your friends and their blood types, how often you had sex with them"
21:46:39 <Liam> people don't put that on forms, but on facebook it's one click
21:46:49 <Liam> [slide; Easy to do is Easy to demand]
21:46:57 <Liam> every site will make you login
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21:47:14 <Liam> mag strip on driver's licence, you go in a bar and they swipe the licence!
21:47:22 <Liam> [slide; user choice can be a bug]
21:47:41 <Liam> click to agree, no negotiation, negotiation only happens with power
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21:47:55 <Liam> how many read those long contracts on the Web?
21:47:58 <Liam> [rigo puts p hand]
21:48:03 <Liam> s/ p / up /
21:48:25 <Liam> [slide: Two choices]
21:48:55 <Liam> more users - can team up, "tin foil hat" people can have our way but not when there are too many servers
21:49:02 <Liam> [slide: cloud inhibits user power]
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21:49:19 <Liam> BEPSI, bulk export of your private & sensitive information
21:49:26 <Liam> [slide: data exported is lost]
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21:49:39 <Liam> [slide: we must take care not to build the infrastructure of a plice state]
21:50:04 <Liam> free-or-policestate switch, don't push this!
21:50:14 <Liam> [slide: arm tanks in the streets]
21:50:18 <Liam> s/arm/army/
21:50:46 <Liam> we're changing it, if you want to wiretap every citizen, whitehouse can call... and do it
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21:51:00 <Liam> [slide: china, saudi arabia, future china, nightmare #1]
21:51:05 <Liam> we sell all our technology
21:51:14 <Liam> with wiretap ability
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21:51:28 <Liam> [photo: time traveling robots from the future]
21:51:48 <Liam> what we do is being recorded, the bots of the future will be able to punish you for what you did years ago!
21:51:56 <Liam> [slide: Falun gong on Facebook]
21:52:17 <Liam> Chinese gov decided they didn't like FG, rounded them up. Wouldn't it have been easy if they had all been on facebook?
21:52:27 <IanJ> Note to attendees: feedback survey -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2009-feedback/
21:52:29 <AnnB> message re: photo: beware of time traveling robots from future
21:52:31 <ericP> what does "throw sheep at your friends" mean?
21:52:39 <Liam> [it's a facebook app]
21:52:44 <AnnB> farm game in Facebook
21:52:45 <Liam> [next speaker]
21:52:59 <Liam> Privacy is hard, how many have gone on your computer and looked at your privacy settings?
21:53:06 <Liam> e.g. on facebook
21:53:18 <Liam> if you look at someone's friends, you can infer their sexual orientation, for example
21:53:26 <jmorris> Adam Barth
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21:53:40 <Liam> netfilix released movie renting data, and you can figure out who 80% of people are,
21:54:08 <Liam> people rent so many movies that as a dimensional space, people are hugely differentiated, so doesn't need much extra info to locate people
21:54:23 <Liam> People are getting excited about cookie blockers
21:54:35 <howard> sorry Karen, for just responding
21:54:35 <Liam> 3rd party cookie blockers don't help your privacy
21:54:49 <Liam> there's an economic incentive for advertisers to know more about you
21:55:12 <Liam> so instead of making the world a harder way to do business, via small privacy leaks, we need an overall solution that can't easily be worked around
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21:55:28 <Liam> [next panelist, Deirdre Mulligan]
21:55:46 <Liam> What can we do to help privacy online? and what does that even mean in this day & age?
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21:56:05 <Liam> Brad posed this idea we're heading toward an environment where our data is all over the place, we've lost all control,
21:56:12 <Liam> we're sleepwalking into a surveillance state
21:56:32 <Liam> and as we take our data & have it sucked up by the cloud, it's the same information but it's not in the 4 walls of your house, legal protections gone
21:56:39 <Liam> And that's not a problem you guys can solve
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21:56:47 <Liam> I hope that you'll help, through political action
21:57:08 <Liam> We can change the legal environment,...
21:57:21 <Liam> we want to be able to share information, pics of my kids, e.g., limited to my family
21:57:42 <Liam> but the fact that I put them online shouldn't determine the legal protection, e.g. if the government wants to see my pictures
21:58:00 <Liam> So this question, what does it mean if you're a designer & you want to be sensitive to privacy issues...
21:58:15 <Liam> ..I'd be slightly frustrated, privacy reduced to a series of dialogue boxes...
21:58:41 <timeless> s/dialogue/dialog/
21:58:42 <Liam> ...reading them could be a full-time job for any of us.. privacy has been left to the lawyers, and we've ended up with this situation...
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21:59:06 <Liam> We don't take a long term view on the data set we're building
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21:59:35 <Liam> e.g. the protection model of privacy, this is a process-oriented view, that you understand what I'm asking for, and make a decision,..
21:59:49 <Liam> and then as the person who collected the data I have obligations about how I use it,...
22:00:01 <timeless> [ http://www.w3.org/P3P/ - Platform for Privacy Preferences (P3P) Project ]
22:00:13 <Liam> but at the end, if we made some huge database we'd still have "privacy" that isn't really privacy at all, everything exposed.
22:00:31 <Liam> So today we're seeing a richer conversation, what might it mean to have a legal perspective on privacy
22:00:39 <Liam> see a paper by Adam Bath [and others]
22:00:47 <Liam> a conservative view on what privacy means and how to protect it
22:01:00 <Liam> you can look at people's mental models, too, how do people expect information to flow?
22:01:07 <Liam> who do they think they're interacting with
22:01:16 <John_Boyer> lol. Is there a way to have it in modules/specXML ?
22:01:18 <Liam> o users understand there's a third party asking to turn on their camera? probably not
22:01:30 <Liam> s/o /Do /
22:01:39 <Liam> Do people understand who they're interacting with?
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22:02:09 <Ralph> -> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1130373 "Privacy and Contextual Integrity: Framework and Applications"; Barth, Datta, Mitchell, Nissenbaum
22:02:10 <Liam> You probably all remember the sony rootkit drm fiasco, users didn't understand that inserting the CD would install s/w and "phone home"
22:02:30 <Liam> FTC in US loked at this, and said, it's a CD, it looks like a CD, it should act like a CD
22:02:31 <Zakim> +Lalana
22:02:45 <timeless> s/lok/look/
22:02:46 <Liam> consumers don't understand that [audio] CDs can load software onto a computer, can open a network connection
22:03:01 <Liam> and the consumer shouldn't have to understand complex legal text to learn this..
22:03:07 <Liam> a more contextual view of privacy
22:03:39 <Liam> So, you might have more work at the front end.. might be different at IETF and W3C, to think about information flow, and where...
22:03:53 <Liam> ...it might be meaningful to develop prompts, and reduce the burden of prompts
22:04:09 <chaals> chaals has joined #tpac
22:04:16 <Liam> Brad: I challenged this in my talk, I don't think notices are the answer
22:04:22 <Liam> Deirdre: yes, we agree
22:04:33 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #tpac
22:04:41 <Liam> Rigo: comments from the floor?
22:04:53 <Liam> Roger Cutler: I'd like to bring up another point of view
22:05:03 <timeless> s/Cutler/Cutler (from Chevron)/
22:05:04 <Liam> I work for a company that takes its legal & ethical responsibilities seriously
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22:05:28 <Liam> it'd be appreciated if you could come up with something simple to comply with, to understand
22:05:46 <rlewis3> rlewis3 has joined #tpac
22:05:57 <Liam> Doug: the usability of ... moizilla has posted a diagram about how information flows
22:06:04 <Liam> something like that for the law might help
22:06:21 <Liam> Deirdre: "why don't you lawyers use a formal language", I get asked by engineers
22:06:26 <timeless> s/moizilla/mozilla/
22:06:38 <Liam> but negotiation is political, some of the ambiguity you view as problematic, is that people decided to save the battle for another day
22:06:56 <Liam> we want it to be evolutionary, we want to go to court and fight over what it is, so it's not a bug, it's a feature!
22:07:11 <Liam> A student said, wow, you guys don't get a lot of chances to do versioning
22:07:18 <Liam> and I said, no, that's what courts are for!
22:07:36 <Liam> the law doesn't move in Internet time, doesn't change every 6 months, so we often use more open language so it can evolve
22:07:56 <Liam> so if you take something ambiguous and turn it into a yes/no question, you are taking a side
22:08:18 <Liam> Adam: from a user's perspective, hard to find privacy policy on a web page, then hard to understand it
22:08:30 <Liam> tried to find similarities with creative comments
22:08:51 <Liam> categories with how media can be used, e.g. see an icon and it has some type of meaning... probably outside scope of W3C
22:09:00 <dom> s/Adam/DougT/
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22:09:22 <Liam> having a lay person not having to read tons of text
22:09:24 <Jim> Jim has joined #TPAC
22:09:35 <Liam> Brad: we started something like this, didn't work out :(
22:10:00 <Liam> timbl: Danny W used to come ot these meetings but he's swallowed up by the whitehouse for 2 yrs, but his attitude, privacy shouldn't be about
22:10:02 <timeless> s/this/this ("trustE")/
22:10:06 <IanJ> timbl: Channeling Danny Weitzner : appropriate use
22:10:08 <Liam> deciding who gets what, but expectations about appropriate use
22:10:15 <timeless> [ http://www.truste.com/ ]
22:10:34 <Liam> should I as a facebook user, you should be able to say, e.g. if you're a prospective employer I don't license you to use the info for denying me a job
22:10:48 <Liam> This is being discussed by the neww Provenance XG
22:10:53 <DanC> DanC has joined #tpac
22:10:57 <timeless> s/neww/new/
22:10:59 <Liam> have to track provenance through all the systems, find appropriate use
22:11:08 <Liam> does the panel think that would work?
22:11:13 <Liam> [some panelist: "no"}
22:11:17 <timeless> [ http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/ - Incubator Activity > W3C Provenance Incubator Group ]
22:11:21 <Liam> Rigo: we have 20 minutes left
22:11:23 <Liam> s/}/]/
22:11:28 <IanJ> -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/ See the transparent accountable datamining
22:11:36 <Liam> Rigo: data privacy have scared us, but there are solutions
22:11:44 <Liam> I've been working on solutions since 1999 at W3C
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22:12:08 <Liam> e.g. discussions about data access rights, if people have data about you, in EU, you have right to look at it, correct it, ask them to delete it
22:12:13 <Liam> but it's only paper
22:12:14 <jmorris> s/some panelist/Brad Templeton/
22:12:23 <Liam> what about data access API?
22:12:38 <Liam> So what are the solutions and challenges to those solutioons?
22:13:02 <Liam> Doug: firs tproblem is accountability, we can't lie to the user
22:13:02 <pbaggia> s/solutioons/solutions
22:13:05 <jmorris> s/ioon/ion/
22:13:28 <Liam> they're not going to share my pictures, the Web browser can say that happen, e.g. facebook shares all my party pics & I don't get the job, I'm not sure who I am going to blame
22:13:34 <gond> gond has joined #tpac
22:13:36 <Liam> the future employer or the UA?
22:13:43 <Liam> I don't know if there's a technical solution.
22:14:05 <Liam> Some of this happens today. My father has the same name as me. He had an unresolved debt from the 1950s, and I had to sort it out, they started calling me
22:14:25 <Liam> I can't imagine asking facebook, show all the data you have on me, and I get a crate outside my house, or a couple of DVDs, to go through!
22:14:32 <Liam> It's a dichotomy, either you use the service or not
22:14:44 <Liam> when I bought my first house I read every page on that contract...
22:14:45 <timeless> s/firs t/first /
22:14:57 <Liam> and my wife said, look, either you buy the house or not, it's not a negotiation
22:15:12 <Liam> either yuo use facebook and play the sheep game, have sheep thrown at you, or you don't
22:15:19 <timeless> s/yuo/you/
22:15:26 <Liam> Dan Glazman: you don't have to use facebook
22:15:30 <Liam> to raise privacy issues
22:15:38 <Liam> in Sweden they're using social security number
22:15:45 <Liam> e.g. for a coupon in a gas station
22:15:55 <timeless> s/number/number ("social health number")/
22:15:55 <Rotan> s/security/health/
22:16:08 <Liam> and there are computers widely available to to check the social health number
22:16:17 <Liam> it's intensified by the web, but e.g. beaten women are found using it
22:16:29 <Liam> Brad: regulations have a history of failing, ata gets out regardless of the rules
22:16:41 <Liam> and the infrastructure to maintain it becomes intractable, or difficult
22:16:51 <timeless> s/ ata / it /
22:17:01 <Liam> Eurpean philosophy is "the gov needs to know everything about you in order to check your privacy"
22:17:08 <timeless> s/ it / data /
22:17:15 <Liam> I believe we need to try & move the data back into our own control
22:17:16 <Rotan> s/check/protect/
22:17:17 <glazou> that was "personnummer"
22:17:24 <Liam> change the default about how data is collected
22:17:40 <Liam> I propose data hosting, each user is responsible for getting a small processing power & bandwidth
22:17:47 <timeless> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Sweden) "personnummer"]
22:17:49 <Liam> and we ask that the code comes to our machines
22:17:53 <chaals> s/using data/using the data available keyed from the personnummber/
22:17:53 <glazou> timeless, number (en) = number (sv)
22:17:57 <glazou> er
22:18:08 <glazou> timeless, number (en) = nummer (sv)
22:18:11 <Liam> So we'd go to the other site, and they'd embed an iframe, and it'd be served by our own host
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22:18:31 <Liam> some kind of VM, sandboxable, cached, would operate on my data on my computer
22:18:37 <Liam> and the results would come to my screen
22:18:51 <Liam> if that's on my own pc it's fast, but there are security issues about running this on your own machine
22:18:56 <Liam> it's a harder engineering challenge
22:19:09 <Liam> "there are things worth doing not because they are easy but because they are hard" - JFK
22:19:34 <Liam> Rigo: data under all user control is one thing, I want to come back to this issue that browsers fear they will be made responsible
22:19:58 <Liam> We had the same issue with the font activity, browsers said we'd be liable if our s/w violates label on fonts
22:20:07 <Liam> Deirdre: I want to push on this idea..
22:20:18 <Liam> when I was reading spec for geolocation it kept talking about user agent
22:20:31 <timeless> [ laughter ]
22:20:41 <Liam> I said, I assume this is the browser, but it talks about it as if it were my agent, most users don't experience the browser as oding my bidding
22:20:49 <timeless> s/oding/doing/
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22:20:56 <Liam> I don't think we have that level of connection to our browser that the term UA suggests
22:21:19 <marie> timeless++
22:21:24 <Liam> I think it's been a little overhyped
22:21:31 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:21:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html dom
22:21:50 <Liam> The other issue I want to touch on, I hopoe there's enough breadth in the marketplace where...
22:21:57 <timeless> s/hopoe/hope/
22:22:00 <Liam> data can be local or in the cloud, and law doesn't depend on the data's location
22:22:13 <Liam> ability to process data might be different for different devices
22:22:21 <Liam> so wouldn't want the legal framework to drive solutions
22:22:30 <Liam> and want to go back to complexity issues, right now, 2 choices...
22:23:02 <Liam> (1) in context of location wg, privacy as a matter of policy, don't develop mechanisms to support ways for people to express info flows
22:23:06 <Liam> you'll end up with hippos
22:23:07 <timeless> hipaa - http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/
22:23:15 <timeless> The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) Privacy Rule 
22:23:21 <timeless> ScribeNick: timeless
22:23:23 <Liam> or you can try to make some lightweight principles, e.g. do not re-transmit, one time use
22:23:25 <timeless> do not retransmit
22:23:27 <timeless> ... one time use
22:23:36 <timeless> ... do not make people think before the transmit information
22:23:41 <timeless> ... it's not just ...
22:23:48 <timeless> ... it's not just that it tells you how tall she is
22:23:54 <timeless> ... it's that it lets you locate her
22:24:04 <timeless> ... so legally people are going to want this information protected
22:24:14 <timeless> ... the dominant uses for information in the us is young people
22:24:15 <Ralph> s/hoppos/HIPPA
22:24:22 <timeless> ... relying on consent ...
22:24:27 <Ralph> s/HIPPA/HIPAA/
22:24:30 <timeless> ... you have an opportunity to think about the
22:24:38 <timeless> ... it's going to be way worse if you wait
22:24:45 <timeless> Doug: I don't think we picked UA to be 
22:24:48 <timeless> ... an enduring term
22:24:52 <timeless> ... it's a technical term
22:24:59 <timeless> ... browser user agent ....
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22:25:13 <timeless> ... the other thing is that you know, browsers have worked a long time to sandbox content
22:25:16 <timeless> ... and our ui
22:25:19 <timeless> ... for spoofing reasons
22:25:26 <timeless> ... you don't want to go to a site that puts our ui up
22:25:33 <timeless> ... and
22:25:48 <timeless> ... so there's an idea of sandboxing content from chrome
22:25:53 <timeless> ... [not google chrome]
22:26:04 <timeless> ... the idea is that any time the user sees a ui from our agent
22:26:17 <AndyS> AndyS has left #tpac
22:26:23 <timeless> ... we do a lot of work to make sure we're sure that what we show is accurate
22:26:28 <timeless> ... if we bring a dialog down
22:26:41 <timeless> ... we want an expectation to be sure that what we said is what actually happened
22:26:47 <timeless> ... you can put something in HTML
22:27:02 <timeless> ... in a DIV... that claims "we won't retransmit"
22:27:08 <timeless> ... but that isn't the best thing to do technically
22:27:15 <timeless> someone: Jeremy?
22:27:18 <timeless> someone-else:
22:27:20 <timeless> ... it seems to me
22:27:23 <timeless> ... that 
22:27:25 <timeless> ... 2 items
22:27:29 <timeless> ... legal rememdies
22:27:31 <Liam> s/Jeremy/Jeremy Carrol/
22:27:32 <chaals> Jeremy Carroll, TopQuadrant
22:27:32 <timeless> ... technical rememdies
22:27:41 <timeless> ... it's only the legal end that really works
22:27:44 <Liam> s/Carrol/Carroll, TopQuadrant/
22:27:47 <timeless> ... the technical end is doomed to failure
22:27:55 <timeless> ... I go into a shop, i buy my groceries
22:28:01 <timeless> ... unless i hide my face, 
22:28:05 <timeless> ... and change my clothes
22:28:16 <timeless> ... there's nothing that can be done
22:28:22 <timeless> ... we have to be public people in public spaces
22:28:26 <timeless> ... we're social animals
22:28:30 <timeless> ... privacy is a concept of the law
22:28:38 <timeless> ... we need to have societies that we trust enough
22:28:47 <timeless> ... to have frameworks that we trust enough
22:28:52 <timeless> ... instead of cheating on us
22:29:00 <timeless> Henry Thomson (Univ Edinborough):
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22:29:07 <timeless> ... I was intrigued by X's
22:29:12 <timeless> ... and tried to come back to it
22:29:13 <Liam> s/Thomson/Thompson/
22:29:19 <timeless> ... i'm enough of a geek to try to manage my data
22:29:25 <timeless> ... i have a server somewhere, it's "my server"
22:29:30 <kawata> kawata has left #tpac
22:29:31 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #tpac
22:29:32 <timeless> ... but it's not in my space that i actually control
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22:29:36 <timeless> ... i rent it from somewhere
22:29:44 <timeless> ... let's say that the law says that it's mine
22:29:49 <timeless> ... let's say that i back up my data
22:29:59 <timeless> ... the value of the backup is that it's not in the same physical location
22:30:05 <sandro> +1 jjc --- we've lost our privacy, technically, walking around in public spaces, shopping, etc.
22:30:06 <timeless> ... i back it up in the cloud (amazon)
22:30:14 <timeless> ... I don't encrypt my data
22:30:23 <timeless> ... I need a legal remedy
22:30:29 <timeless> ... I can't manage it all by myself
22:30:37 <timeless> ... and there's no question that my father in law can
22:30:42 <timeless> panelist: 
22:30:47 <timeless> ... you could encrypt the backup you send out
22:30:53 <Liam> s/panelist/Brad/
22:30:56 <IanJ> Brad: Neither law nor technology provides a complete solution (alone).
22:31:00 <timeless> ... or you could have the backup server legally defined as your property
22:31:07 <chaals> [In a small village, privacy is a different beast]
22:31:09 <adrianba> s/Edinborough/Edinburgh/
22:31:14 <timeless> .... the law isn't intended to protect small institutions
22:31:22 <timeless> someone-s:
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22:31:24 <chaals> Nikunj Mehta
22:31:30 <timeless> ... can we address the privacy fears we have
22:31:32 <chaals> s/someone-s/Nikunj Mehta/
22:31:38 <timeless> ... using good sharing techniques
22:31:48 <timeless> ... as with digital rights techniques
22:31:54 <chaals> s/Nikunj Mehta//
22:31:55 <timeless> ... that are used by large companies
22:32:04 <timeless> panelistx-:
22:32:08 <timeless> ... prime rights (?)
22:32:15 <timeless> ... there are large parallels between large data
22:32:24 <timeless> ... we'll have a lightning talk on this later
22:32:27 <Liam> [rigo: w3c participates in www.primelife.eu ]
22:32:30 <timeless> Frederick Hirsh (Nokia):
22:32:40 <timeless> ... technically any failure with privacy is a complete failure
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22:32:45 <timeless> ... you have information, it gets out
22:32:49 <timeless> ... you're done
22:32:49 <Liam> s/panelistx-/Rigo/
22:32:52 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
22:32:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
22:32:57 <andrew> s/panelistx-:/Rigo Wenning:/
22:32:57 <timeless> ... legally, it sounds like a boil the ocean
22:33:05 <timeless> ... if ... it's cumbersome
22:33:18 <timeless> ... I'm worrying about being overwhelmed
22:33:21 <timeless> ... having to read checkboxes
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22:33:30 <timeless> panelist-y:
22:33:32 <timeless> ... i don't think so
22:33:36 <timeless> ... there are efforts to make sure
22:33:41 <timeless> ... we did step in and pass this law
22:33:49 <timeless> ... called the electronic information privacy act
22:33:52 <jmorris> s/panelist-y/Deirdre Mulligan/
22:34:01 <timeless> ... designed to give the same protection for email as for mail
22:34:08 <timeless> ... the way the justice dept uses this statue
22:34:15 <timeless> ... might turn on whether you've opened it or not
22:34:23 <timeless> ... the law might change based on how old it is
22:34:30 <Marcos> Marcos has joined #tpac
22:34:32 <timeless> ... if you pulled the data down
22:34:36 <timeless> ... if it was used for processing
22:34:43 <timeless> ... or was used by an information service
22:34:47 <timeless> ... at the time this was passed
22:34:52 <timeless> ... we thought the content was what mattered
22:34:54 <IanJ> content v. identity
22:34:59 <timeless> ... and the identity wasn't considered
22:35:10 <timeless> ... what we know now is that something can let people know that you're gay
22:35:16 <timeless> ... today what we have is people who are posting
22:35:25 <timeless> ... and the privacy they want is their identity
22:35:26 <IanJ> [interesting: shift from protecting content but not identity to the inverse]
22:35:38 <timeless> ... law is a way that lets people express national concerns about privacy
22:35:44 <timeless> ... that might be good to some extent
22:35:48 <timeless> ... but it might be bad in others
22:36:00 <timeless> ... -- not one size fits all --
22:36:10 <timeless> ... how information should flow / and how it should be shared
22:36:13 <timeless> x:
22:36:15 <timeless> ... about 
22:36:19 <timeless> Rigo:
22:36:23 <timeless> ... we've consumed our one hour
22:36:26 <timeless> [applause ]
22:36:34 <timeless> ... thanks a lot
22:36:50 <timeless> -> next set of panelists
22:37:05 <ht> ScribeNick: ht
22:37:11 <ht> Scribe: Henry S. Thompson
22:37:15 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
22:37:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
22:37:59 <ht> Topic: Web Apps vs App. Stores
22:38:13 <ht> Chair: Robin Berjon
22:38:58 <Zakim> -Lalana
22:42:27 <ht> RobinB: Panel about Web Apps, App Stores and surrounding technology
22:43:03 <mac> mac has joined #tpac
22:43:03 <ht> ... What's the difference between using a mail program, and using a mail-reading webapp
22:43:11 <mac> mac has joined #tpac
22:43:35 <ht> ... The functional difference is vanishing, and the client/server distinction doesn't mean anything to our users
22:43:53 <ht> ... So when we talk about this as important, we are in a sense behind our users
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22:44:23 <ht> RobinB: There are differences:  Some webapps are accessed directly in the browser
22:44:53 <ht> ... whereas others are downloaded as zipped packages and installed in the browser more in the way that traditional apps are installed
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22:45:21 <ht> RobinB: Questions to ask: are these different from the security perspective ?
22:45:27 <ht> ... or is it just convenience?
22:46:22 <ht> RobinB: From the business perspective, should we explore how to monetise webapps for developers?  "405 payment required"?
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22:47:17 <Ralph> Nick Allott (OMTP)
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22:47:28 <ht> sprk1: What is the probability/possibility of webapps replacing traditional apps?
22:47:39 <ht> ... What are the important different classes of webapps?
22:47:50 <ht> s/sprk1/NickA/
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22:48:41 <ht> NickA: Consider BBCiPlayer on iPhone [slide 1]
22:50:21 <ht> ... three main options (flash/streaming media+native viewer/HTML5 <video>), either via Web2.0 or a Widget
22:50:58 <ht> ... [missed some]
22:51:07 <ht> ... normal native app
22:51:19 <ht> ... develop as webapp, but compile into native
22:51:43 <glazou> glazou has joined #tpac
22:51:46 <ht> NickA: Consider Toodledo on iPhone
22:52:06 <ht> Four alternatives: Web 2.0, online
22:52:15 <ht> ... HTML 5, same, but also offline
22:52:40 <ht> ... Widgets + DAP, offline, with access to your native data, e.g. contacts
22:52:43 <ht> ... Native
22:53:18 <ht> s/iPhone/iPhone, a simple calendar+email+contacts app/
22:54:27 <ht> NickA: W3C role here?  W3C gives breadth, and low cost (because of RF requirement)
22:55:02 <ht> ... Some particular WGs are important here -- e.g. DAP
22:55:25 <ht> ... [an equation between AppStores and Widgets I didn't quite get]
22:55:48 <ht> ... AppStore tends to be one-off payment
22:56:03 <ht> ... Cloud-based tends to be subscription payment
22:56:08 <Zakim> -wiecha
22:56:42 <ht> NickA: Challenge -- policy and privacy as approached by HTML WG is different from that of the DAP WG
22:57:26 <ht> Chaals: W3C Widgets - Editor's perspective
22:57:43 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #tpac
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22:58:05 <ht> s/W3C Widgets - Editor's perspective/WebApps could be anything/
22:58:29 <ht> ... A widget has a bit of pedigree, a bit more of a guarantee
22:58:59 <ht> ... In the middle, an AppStore, you get a packaged WebApp with _some_ guarantee of quality
22:59:54 <ht> Chaals: For a Widget Store looking at a W3C-compliant widget, there is some ability to look into the widget code and confirm some properties
23:00:14 <ht> ... so there is some basis for establishing some trust in the quality
23:00:42 <ht> Chaals: But consider WebApps again -- how many people use Google apps? [hands go up]
23:01:03 <ht> ... You do, and you trust them, because of where they come from, not because of any inspection of the inside
23:01:23 <ht> ... And that's the same as has always been the case, going back to DOS applications in a cardboard box
23:01:43 <ht> Chaals: None the less, it's a step forward to be able to look inside if you choose to
23:02:09 <ht> ArunR: There's a "versus" in the title
23:02:22 <ht> ... I don't feel very adversarial towards AppStores
23:02:28 <ht> ... but there are questions
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23:02:50 <ht> ArunR: Coming out of WG meetings earlier in the week
23:03:01 <dom> (thanks very much to the panelists for agreeing to join this panel at the last minute)
23:03:18 <ht> ... The similarities between Widgets and WebApps are superficial, I suggest
23:03:49 <ht> ArunR: On the one hand, you can build them in the same way, using the same maybe-W3C technologies
23:04:08 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
23:04:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
23:04:10 <ht> ... but WebApps run in a web-like hyperlinked-model-based way
23:04:42 <ht> ... whereas the Widget runs in a more encapsulated way, maybe on the desktop
23:04:58 <ht> ... The zipfile is constrained, it's not the same as a web page
23:05:15 <ht> ... So maybe these are cosmetic differences, but the model _is_ different
23:05:45 <ht> ArunR: HTML 5 will let you build a music WebApp with playlists and actual audio output
23:06:17 <ht> ... Or to get at geoloc info, orientation, multitouch aspects of the webapp-hosting-device
23:06:32 <ht> ... This is a triumph for the Web stack and Javascript
23:06:58 <ht> ... Privacy and security are however the location of a major difference between the two models
23:07:09 <ht> MarcesC: [slides]
23:07:21 <ht> ... W3C Widgets - Editor's perspective
23:08:00 <ht> ... I've been editting this spec. for a number of years, initial as part of my PhD
23:08:05 <maxf> s/MarcesC/MarcosC/
23:08:05 <howard> howard has joined #tpac
23:08:14 <ht> ... How can we build a universal application packaging format, that can be used anywhere?
23:08:32 <ht> ... Longevity -- last 100 years
23:08:44 <ht> ... Similar to HTML 5
23:09:26 <ht> ... Widgets want to do the same for applications as HTML 5 does for documents in this respect
23:10:11 <ht> MarcesC: We want a universal platform, built on open standards, so no IDE has to be purchased
23:10:28 <Steven> s/Marces/Marcos
23:10:50 <ht> s/Marces/Marcos/g
23:11:08 <ht> MarcosC: Security and policy is a very important issue
23:11:36 <ht> ... Putting all your data into a corporate basket is risky, without being critical of any particular corporation
23:12:05 <ht> ... So a goal for widgets is to enable data to be kept local
23:12:29 <ht> ... A hybrid model is baked in -- client/server balance
23:12:55 <ht> ... Concerned with support for monetization
23:13:21 <ht> ... Pressure for encryption, but inconsistent with 'View Source'
23:13:38 <ht> ... Just live with it -- be better than the competition, and you will win
23:13:52 <ht> ... There are plenty of ways to make money
23:14:08 <ht> RobinB: Floor is open for questions
23:14:41 <ht> MikeChampion: What about the other side?  No-one from Apple?  It looks like the market has voted for the AppStore, not the Widgets?
23:15:04 <cheol> cheol has joined #tpac
23:15:10 <ht> ArunR: Not adversarial -- OK to use both
23:15:24 <ht> ... Why no monetization model behind Firefox extentions?
23:15:35 <rahul> rahul has joined #tpac
23:15:37 <ht> s/extention/extension/
23:15:56 <ht> Glazou: I disagree there's not adversarial
23:16:13 <ht> ... Consider the iPhone -- I cannot download any application I want to
23:16:26 <ht> ... Whereas I can to my browser
23:16:42 <ht> ... I'm afraid this will close off the user's freedom
23:17:12 <ht> Glazou: Compare a ?? clone on a iPhone and a Nintendo
23:17:24 <Kai> s/monetization/monetarization
23:17:25 <ht> ... The price differential is huge, and will kill ???
23:17:29 <glazou> s/??/Mario Kart
23:17:50 <Judy> Judy has joined #tpac
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23:17:59 <dom> s/???/this industry
23:18:01 <ht> Chaals: Money talks
23:18:25 <ht> ... We tried to find a way to develop micropayments, but never managed it
23:18:44 <ht> ... Credit card payments worked well enough to get us going
23:19:00 <ht> ... But there are problems, and there's work to be done now to try to fix that
23:19:33 <ht> ... In the long term we have to solve the challenge of the Apple iPhone appstore
23:19:41 <ht> ... but for now multiple channels will work
23:20:06 <ht> Chaals: Coming back to the adversarial point -- not necessarily that way
23:20:20 <ht> ... After all, some people pay for some content on the Web
23:20:35 <ht> [scribe not getting all of Chaals's examples]
23:21:01 <ht> Chaals: The fact that it's a zipfile, instead of zipped on the wire, isn't a big deal
23:21:15 <ht> ... A file on disk, or a transient webpage -- again, not a big deal
23:21:43 <ht> NickA: Widget appstore already exist
23:21:56 <ht> ... Crucial point -- they can be horizontal, i.e. cross-platform
23:22:11 <ht> ... and that's a real difference wrt the AppStores we see today
23:22:55 <ht> ArunR: There is a difference, it's a cosmetic difference, and users will be aware of them
23:23:03 <ht> ... And there will be security differences
23:23:05 <dom> (it’s more than cosmetic, I think — it’s a different user experience)
23:23:42 <ht> MarcosC: There are implementations which run Widgets on the server and serve the result as embedded iframes
23:23:56 <jallan> jallan has joined #tpac
23:24:07 <ht> ... If they get digitally signed, the potential to share them will be reduced
23:24:37 <ht> NoahMendelsohn: Following up on the cross-platform aspect, and what people value
23:24:53 <ht> ... Yes money is being made via mobile apps from a store
23:25:22 <ht> ... If you're an airline, you make your money from the ticket, not from the applet which signals flight delays
23:25:39 <ht> ... Zero-download is what you want
23:26:04 <ht> ... If you want to hit 90% of the smartphones that are out there, you currently need order of 5 versions
23:26:16 <ht> [someone]: Much more than 5
23:26:30 <ht> [someone else]: Same as with browsers
23:26:46 <ht> NoahM: I don't think that's accurate -- android differs from iPhone much more
23:26:57 <ht> ... Cross platform is going to be very variable
23:27:01 <mauro> s/[someone]/Glazou
23:27:19 <mauro> s/[someone else]/MarcosC/
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23:27:32 <ht> Glazou: I wanted to hear this browser+offline storage, you can reproduce iTunes
23:27:51 <ht> ... that will allow us to kill this [AppStore?] model -- let's do it
23:28:15 <IanJ> TBL: What's different between widgets and web apps - question of trust.
23:28:17 <ht> Timbl: The difference is, as ArunR said, the way users manage it -- how it's loaded and stored
23:28:23 <glazou> s/browser+offline storage/browser+offline/+localStorage+deviceAPI
23:28:24 <IanJ> ...I tend to trust the things in my cache
23:28:52 <glazou> s/browser+offline storage/browser+offline+localStorage+deviceAPI
23:28:55 <ht> Timbl: There used to be a way to bookmark pages for offline browsing
23:29:10 <ht> ... controlling what's costing local resource is important
23:29:13 <JonathanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
23:29:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html JonathanJ
23:29:23 <ht> Timbl: Maybe we should go back to look at micropayments again
23:29:39 <ht> ... it is very frustrating to have to talk to the ISP at every airport
23:29:52 <ht> ... Skype now brokers that for me, and I'll pay more for that
23:30:29 <Judy> Judy has joined #tpac
23:30:30 <ht> Chaals: Who has made a transaction of more than 10USD [everyone]
23:30:59 <ht> ... Anyone made a single self-contained payment of less than .50USD [almost no-one]
23:31:11 <glazou> tantek, the key here is localStorage
23:31:17 <ht> ... How many people spend less than 3USD/day
23:31:51 <ht> DanAppelquist: Vodafone is commited heavily to Widgets, and we're getting very positive feedback from developers
23:32:07 <ht> ... not just monetization, but also ease of development, route to market, etc.
23:33:02 <ht> LarryMasinter: Thinking about the difference -- what is the effect of bringing into Widgets all the error-recovery logic from HTML 5
23:33:18 <ht> ... It's not helping the security model to do this
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23:33:56 <ht> [back and forth about the generality of Widgets as packaging]
23:34:15 <ht> MarcosE: We use error handling as a means to extensibility
23:34:30 <ht> ArunR: In theory the Widget package will run on any runtime
23:34:32 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
23:34:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
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23:35:04 <DKA> That URI for the €1M widget developer give-away is: http://widget.developer.vodafone.com/appstar
23:35:05 <ht> ... but in practice we may want different runtimes for the web browser or the mobile device
23:35:27 <ht> ... The cool thing is that they all get developed using the Web stack
23:35:42 <ht> Chaals: I want to question the assumption that the security model is different
23:36:04 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #tpac
23:36:08 <ht> ... If you trust Widgets from a particular provider, you may use a different security model
23:36:18 <ht> ... Same thing wrt apps from trusted providers
23:36:38 <ht> ... In either case you make your decision about trust based on the provider
23:36:51 <ht> ArunR: Respectfully disagree
23:37:03 <ht> ... You're connecting the trust model and the security model
23:37:08 <ht> Chaals: Yes
23:37:18 <ht> [applause]
23:37:23 <DanC> (I think the security models are different. I haven't studied it closely, but... for example, the security implications of following <img src=""> links in HTML email and normal web browsing are different)
23:37:27 <cardona507> arun works for who?
23:37:33 <DanC> mozilla
23:37:44 <ht> RalphS: Adjourned until 1600
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23:38:06 <ht> rrsagent, make minutes
23:38:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html ht
23:38:40 <Zakim> -MeetingRoom
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00:04:31 <Karen> scribenick: Karen
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00:04:58 <Karen> Session 6: Future of the Social Web 
00:05:04 <Steven> Steven has joined #tpac
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00:05:09 <Karen> Moderator: Daniel Appelquist, Vodafone
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00:05:27 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
00:05:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
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00:06:12 <Karen> Speakers: ren> Moderator: Daniel Appelquist, Vodafone
00:06:12 <Karen> [19:05] * darobin has joined #tpac
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00:06:12 <Karen> [19:05] <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
00:06:12 <Karen> [19:05] <RRSA
00:06:22 <timeless> [ wine drawing ]
00:06:39 <Karen> Topic: Future of the Social Web
00:06:55 <Karen> Dan: Hi Everyone
00:06:59 <Karen> Welcome back from the break
00:07:07 <timbl> timbl has joined #tpac
00:07:07 <Karen> ...I work for Vodafone
00:07:13 <mac> mac has joined #tpac
00:07:14 <Karen> ...here to present panel on Social WEb
00:07:18 <maraki> maraki has joined #tpac
00:07:19 <annevk> annevk has joined #tpac
00:07:26 <Karen> ...when I come before you, you are used to hearing about widgets and mobile web
00:07:27 <mac> mac has joined #tpac
00:07:32 <Karen> ...and how cool that is
00:07:37 <Karen> ...But I work on other stuff
00:07:47 <Karen> ...Social networking is a topic I have picked up over last couple of years
00:07:52 <Karen> ...Of intense interest to me
00:07:56 <Karen> ...part of the future of communication
00:08:11 <Karen> ...I use this phrase internally to make sure people understand why they should be interested in social networking
00:08:25 <Karen> ...how people communicate in and through social channels in structured ways
00:08:30 <brutzman> brutzman has joined #TPAC
00:08:33 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #tpac
00:08:34 <Karen> ...New ways that were hard to imagine a few years ago
00:08:48 <zarella__> zarella__ has joined #tpac
00:08:49 <Karen> ...Like to introduce our guest speaker David Recordon from FaceBook
00:08:54 <Karen> ...And Adam Boyet form Boeing
00:08:59 <Karen> ...then discussion
00:09:05 <Karen> Adam: Switched the batting order
00:09:06 <timeless> s/form/from/
00:09:12 <jun> jun has joined #tpac
00:09:22 <Karen> ...I'd like to share what we have been doing with social web inside of Boeing
00:09:25 <Karen> ...we're a huge company
00:09:37 <Karen> ...research and design facilities around the world
00:09:51 <Karen> ...but social web not just for big companies; value for small companies, too
00:10:03 <Karen> ...Sometimes as technologists, we look at tech perspective
00:10:07 <Zakim> +Salon_1
00:10:13 <Karen> ...but we're also looking at it from employee's perspective
00:10:22 <Karen> ...Think about discoverability
00:10:26 <tlr> tlr has joined #tpac
00:10:28 <Karen> ...how to improve across company
00:10:36 <noahm> noahm has joined #tpac
00:10:37 <Karen> ...Reusability rather than start over
00:10:51 <Karen> ...Redundancy: could be similar groups working on same technologies
00:11:01 <Karen> ...somebody on air frames and satellites
00:11:06 <Karen> ...both trying to get moisture out
00:11:06 <arun> arun has joined #tpac
00:11:17 <Zakim> +Ralph
00:11:22 <Karen> ...Visibilty: related to redundancy but sprinkle security in there
00:11:34 <Karen> ...Security adds dynamicness"
00:11:44 <Zakim> -MeetingRoom
00:11:52 <Karen> ...One of ways we have addressed is by introducing patterns from social web inside of Boeing
00:11:53 <mmani> mmani has joined #tpac
00:11:55 <Zakim> -apis-db-stuff
00:12:02 <Karen> ...inSite is where Boeing employees can create an identity
00:12:02 <plh> plh has joined #tpac
00:12:05 <Zakim> +Salon_1
00:12:13 <Karen> ...opt in and out, share photos, resumes, what they choose
00:12:22 <Karen> ...They can help each other out, ask questions, search for people
00:12:32 <Karen> ...Supposed I want to find a structural analysis person
00:12:39 <Daniel-Park> Daniel-Park has joined #tpac
00:12:41 <Karen> ...And expert who worked on this particular air frame
00:12:47 <Karen> ...Maybe help to peer review something
00:12:54 <Karen> ...inSite allows people to publish their thoughts
00:13:00 <Karen> ...Very low entry barrier for that
00:13:00 <Zakim> -Ralph
00:13:04 <raman> raman has joined #tpac
00:13:08 <Karen> ...You an share information; links, white paper, PPT, video
00:13:11 <Karen> ...Can share easily
00:13:13 <Roger> msg AnnB asks if you could please send me these slides?
00:13:16 <Karen> ...You can create groups
00:13:23 <Zakim> +Ralph
00:13:25 <Karen> ...These groups find each other and can collaborate
00:13:35 <tantek> tantek has joined #tpac
00:13:41 <Zakim> -MeetingRoom
00:13:44 <Karen> ...Then you have a place where experts can collaborate more effectively and securely
00:13:49 <Zakim> -Ralph
00:13:50 <Karen> ...Can secure only to the group...
00:14:01 <Karen> ...We make it easy; declaratively tag that
00:14:08 <Karen> ...balance between public and secure content
00:14:15 <Karen> ...raise awareness, find that serendipitous person
00:14:16 <Zakim> W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has ended
00:14:17 <Zakim> Attendees were MeetingRoom, Ralph, +46.7.06.02.aaaa, +1.408.644.aabb, shadi, wiecha, Lalana, apis-db-stuff
00:14:25 <Karen> ...75% of it is available on your Blackberry device
00:14:29 <Zakim> W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has now started
00:14:30 <Zakim> +Salon_1
00:14:37 <Karen> ...You can also do on your iPhone, although we don't support
00:14:43 <Karen> ...Goal to get the workforce connect
00:14:46 <Zakim> -Salon_1
00:14:55 <Karen> ...The approach we took was looking at social patterns from the web
00:15:08 <Karen> ...Content aggregation, open culture, patterns around Q&A, recommending
00:15:14 <Karen> ...Looked at patterns from service providers
00:15:23 <Karen> ...We looked at how to use this pattern to add value to the company
00:15:31 <Karen> ...This is approach we took with inSite
00:15:36 <Karen> ...So how it was built; all Java based
00:15:41 <Karen> ...Use open source frameworks
00:15:49 <Karen> ...We use Oracle, we have an enterprise license
00:15:54 <Karen> ...You can see functional componenets
00:15:58 <Karen> ...Share and ask it
00:16:08 <Karen> ...On everybody's browser, click to ask question
00:16:09 <Zakim> +Salon_1
00:16:12 <timeless> s/Share/Share It!/
00:16:14 <Karen> ...It searches previously asked questions
00:16:17 <timeless> s/ask it/Ask It!/
00:16:20 <Karen> ...and go ahead and ask question
00:16:30 <Karen> ...to people who may be experts on topic
00:16:36 <Karen> ...Get to people you may not know exist
00:16:38 <Zakim> +Ralph
00:16:45 <Karen> ...Couldn't find him any other way without social patterns
00:16:51 <Karen> ...Boos, tagging, etc.
00:16:57 <Karen> ...Profile a huge part of that
00:17:01 <Karen> ...Search is ubiquitous
00:17:02 <Zakim> -Ralph
00:17:04 <timeless> s/Boos/Bookmarks/
00:17:13 <Karen> ...We're straddling line between secure and public content
00:17:17 <Karen> ...Share where possible
00:17:23 <Karen> ...but not always with all technical info
00:17:30 <Karen> ...Public info shows up in enterprise search clients
00:17:36 <Karen> ...But also use cases that require security
00:17:39 <Karen> ...From the outset
00:17:46 <Karen> ...We wanted an open culture for data
00:17:56 <Karen> ...Implement so you can get into inSite from outside
00:18:06 <Karen> ...Through REST interface 
00:18:15 <Karen> ...We can render in other applications
00:18:19 <timeless> [ SIOC, FOAF, RSS, REST, SOAP ]
00:18:20 <Karen> ...Can embed in blog or wiki
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00:18:30 <Karen> ...Try to bring patterns, concepts from Internet to gain efficiencies
00:18:43 <Karen> ...Trying to use social web to work together more efficiently
00:18:47 <Karen> ...collaborate better
00:18:53 <timeless> [ Slide title: What does this mean? ]
00:18:56 <Karen> ...connect to each other; see if there are synergies in activities
00:19:08 <Karen> ...Try to use for people to find solutions to things that have already been solved
00:19:17 <Karen> ...Find solutions before they start a new project, or find a lesson learned
00:19:23 <Karen> ...Reduce duplication when starting something new
00:19:32 <timeless> [ Slide title: Life is good right? .... not yet ... ]
00:19:34 <Karen> ...So use social web for those activities
00:19:41 <Karen> ...We have about 30K signed up
00:19:46 <Karen> ...log in daily basis
00:19:55 <Karen> ...People started to look at profiles
00:20:05 <Karen> ...but had to recreate on the blog, wikis, etc.
00:20:12 <Karen> ...One of things we noticed
00:20:24 <Karen> ...Profiles in other systems only had a fragment of the inSite profile
00:20:40 <Karen> ...So 30K people, HR manage data and user provider data in one place witin inSite
00:20:45 <Karen> ...So we wanted to save them time
00:20:49 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #tpac
00:20:52 <Karen> ...Integrate to the wiki to get data out of inSite
00:20:58 <Karen> ...integrate with blog, portal
00:21:04 <Karen> ...Would be great to have some social web standard
00:21:12 <Karen> ...to synchronize profile information between systems
00:21:13 <tantek> "Example: Missing Profile Standards" <-- wait, didn't previous slide say they implemented FOAF?
00:21:18 <Karen> ...and do that within Boeing and with suppliers, too
00:21:25 <Karen> ...link these disparate systems together
00:21:29 <timeless> [ Slide title: Benefits to the enterprise ]
00:21:31 <Karen> ...So maybe if we had some social web standards
00:21:34 <Karen> ...that would reduce time
00:21:38 <Karen> ...and focus on core business
00:21:50 <Karen> ...come up with a better jet fuel, more efficient airplane
00:22:00 <Karen> ...Apply social patterns and hope to see more innovation
00:22:10 <Karen> ...break down walled gardens; find solutions faster
00:22:16 <timeless> [ Slideshow ends ]
00:22:22 <timeless> [ applause ]
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00:22:50 <marie> Fabien's slides: http://www.slideshare.net/fabien_gandon/semantics-in-social-networks
00:22:52 <Karen> Speaker: Fabien Gandon
00:22:57 <Karen> ...from INRIA
00:22:57 <mth> mth has joined #tpac
00:23:02 <Karen> ...This talk is twice biased
00:23:09 <Karen> ...I have been asked to test an academic perspective
00:23:14 <Karen> ...and also look at SemWeb
00:23:36 <Karen> ...First one is to look at is time-evolving
00:23:47 <Karen> ...Growing amount of info exceeds our attention span
00:23:56 <Karen> ...First problem using SemWeb is need for memes to have focus
00:24:02 <Karen> ...In social network analysis
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00:24:07 <Karen> ...sociaograms and analysis
00:24:10 <Karen> ...could help us focus
00:24:31 <Karen> ...We could use social applications to filter and focus things
00:24:39 <Karen> ...Classic social network analysis works on graphs
00:24:46 <Karen> ...don't take into account types of links, profiles
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00:24:55 <Karen> ...Links and profiles change and are important
00:25:00 <Karen> ...SemWeb can help
00:25:06 <Karen> ...We have social network graphs
00:25:11 <Karen> ..and we have SemWeb graphs
00:25:21 <Karen> ...In social network analysis we would calculate in degree
00:25:25 <Karen> ...add new types
00:25:30 <Karen> ...since you are man also a person
00:25:39 <Karen> ...Bring both things, bridge both graphs together
00:25:45 <Karen> ...First bias is academy
00:25:47 <Karen> ...Related work 
00:25:51 <Karen> ...Some of contributions
00:25:56 <Karen> ...propogating trust
00:26:02 <Karen> ...using SN and SemWeb
00:26:10 <Karen> ...Show degree still follows power 
00:26:20 <Steven> a/propo/propa/
00:26:20 <Karen> ...apply classic analysis directly on social network with RDF
00:26:23 <Karen> ...merging identities
00:26:29 <Karen> ..extending tools to query with SPARQL
00:26:33 <Karen> ...From representation POV
00:26:36 <Steven> s/power/power law/
00:26:40 <Karen> ...schemas exist like FOAF to describe persons
00:26:50 <Karen> ...like families, colleagues, and so on
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00:26:58 <Karen> ...Give a 'toy' example of what can be don
00:27:01 <Karen> s/done
00:27:05 <IanJ> s/don/done
00:27:12 <Karen> ...Consider Guilllaume
00:27:16 <Karen> ...from a family point of view
00:27:23 <Karen> ...analyze him only from family POV
00:27:27 <Karen> ...I don't care how you calculate
00:27:41 <Karen> ...but use schemas that define family and tell me what is the degree of Guillaume
00:27:46 <Karen> ...That's what we can do merging graphs
00:27:53 <Karen> ...Centrality as I mentioned before
00:28:07 <Karen> ...Second place is to work on SPARQL and to extend it
00:28:10 <Karen> ...Describe it
00:28:15 <Karen> ...Pass as first citizen
00:28:26 <timeless> s/Guilllaume/Guillaume/
00:28:31 <Karen> ...query here, interest in links between people, only colleagues such as manager of second person
00:28:37 <Karen> ...test with real case
00:28:47 <Karen> ...worked with ipernity.com
00:28:51 <Karen> ...People type the link
00:28:58 <Karen> ...make difference between contacts
00:29:02 <Karen> ...We have their full database
00:29:08 <Karen> ...It's 60K; small
00:29:11 <Karen> ...but all in RDF
00:29:14 <Karen> ...We ran analysis
00:29:20 <Karen> ...show when you try to use this usual operator
00:29:24 <Karen> ...to find most important actor
00:29:29 <Karen> ...Depending upon the type
00:29:39 <Karen> ...You will find different actor depending upon the actor
00:29:41 <IanJ> Fabien: the "most important actor" depends on type information you choose
00:29:50 <Karen> ...From prof POV, if not able to type not able to see
00:30:00 <Karen> ...What we do is provide schemas to reinject
00:30:11 <Karen> ...Propose schema to put back result of analysis
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00:30:23 <Karen> ...resuse it for incremental analysis
00:30:28 <Karen> ...Second problem I would like to introduce
00:30:31 <Karen> ...Social data
00:30:38 <Karen> ...usually characterized using tagging
00:30:42 <Karen> ...Folksonomies
00:30:53 <Karen> ...One problem only so much to do with Folksonomies
00:30:56 <Karen> ...Related work
00:31:01 <Karen> ...Some academic propositions
00:31:09 <Karen> ...low tagging tags themselves
00:31:15 <Karen> ...Semiautomatic structuring
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00:31:25 <Karen> ...Community inclusion to derive structure on the tags
00:31:33 <Karen> ...Diving is included in the community of tag water sport
00:31:40 <Karen> ...start structuring the folksonomy with that
00:31:44 <Karen> ...Use existing lexicons
00:31:47 <Karen> ...Some proposal from ?
00:32:02 <Karen> ...Provide schemas to exchange tags and folksonomies
00:32:03 <rigo> rigo has joined #tpac
00:32:07 <Karen> ...SIOC is one
00:32:18 <Karen> ...Allows you to represent cloud of tags
00:32:24 <Karen> ...Can use SKOS from W3C also 
00:32:33 <Karen> ...MOAT can be used to disembiguate the tag
00:32:44 <Karen> ...in this context used to refer to the fruit and not the company
00:32:51 <Karen> ...VoCamps; encourage you to look
00:33:00 <Karen> ...Working on schema to work on nametags
00:33:04 <Karen> ...was discussed in a VoCamp
00:33:12 <Karen> ...Give you another example of a different approach
00:33:18 <Karen> ...To get users to use tags
00:33:30 <Karen> ...look at ways to provide them tools
00:33:33 <Karen> ...and capture knowledge
00:33:42 <Karen> ...work with people using delici.us
00:33:49 <Karen> ...Look at bookmarks; when they search
00:33:55 <Karen> ...can use this widget on the left
00:34:13 <Karen> ...As the user reorganizes the results
00:34:25 <Karen> ...We capture everything
00:34:33 <Karen> ...while they are searching and filtering
00:34:44 <Karen> ...Last problem I want to mention
00:34:56 <Judy> Judy has joined #tpac
00:34:56 <Karen> ...Is introduction of social web inside a firewall
00:35:00 <Karen> ...A cultural problem
00:35:10 <Karen> ...and a psychological challenge
00:35:12 <Karen> ...Inside companies
00:35:22 <Karen> ...social webs may be incompatable with business processes
00:35:28 <Karen> ...be careful not to create a war
00:35:38 <Karen> ...isicil.inria.fr
00:35:58 <Karen> ...this uses both internal and external applications; crosses boundaries
00:36:02 <Karen> ...We injected RDF
00:36:07 <Karen> ...when they interact with application
00:36:12 <Karen> ...internal or external
00:36:20 <Karen> ...we can still capture the RDF and capture the functionality
00:36:24 <Karen> ...A number of contributions
00:36:28 <Karen> ...Security and access control
00:36:39 <Karen> ...Trust based service composition
00:36:48 <Karen> ...Policy aware content reuse
00:37:03 <Karen> ...Systems link to open data to get info about you and people you interact with
00:37:10 <Karen> ...Many other topics could be mentioned here
00:37:15 <Karen> ...Some working on at camps
00:37:25 <Karen> ...Social journalism...[reads from list]
00:37:41 <Karen> ...One of the things interesting is look at stack of standards built on SemWeb
00:37:50 <Karen> ...that could provide basis for extending social networks
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00:38:01 <Karen> ...Another aspect that Tim pointed out yesterday
00:38:09 <Karen> ...This could benefit from infrastructure 
00:38:21 <Karen> ...from the deployment architecture provided from linked open data
00:38:26 <Karen> ...Using typed networks
00:38:32 <Karen> ...and parameterized operators
00:38:43 <Karen> ...allow us to be more precise
00:38:54 <Karen> ...Difficulty is problem of fragmented identities
00:38:58 <Karen> ...SemWeb has pros and cons
00:39:06 <Karen> ...Sometimes you want profiles to be merged
00:39:08 <Karen> ...sometimes not
00:39:16 <Karen> [crowd laughs at photos]
00:39:26 <Karen> ...You want to differentiate
00:39:32 <Karen> ...Still an open issue
00:39:41 <Karen> ...Declarative query language
00:39:49 <Karen> ...Time is still forgotten
00:39:51 <Steven> Ivan Herman as Hagrid
00:39:54 <Karen> ...Setting chronology of events
00:40:03 <Karen> ...analyzing evolution of trends
00:40:14 <Karen> ...I would love to have an easy way on FaceBook 
00:40:18 <Karen> ...to say I'm a friend with this person
00:40:32 <Karen> ...but she does not have access to what I have said in the last year, but no access to my past
00:40:37 <Karen> ...Scaling is a challenge
00:40:46 <Karen> ...We are far from the size of network you are handling
00:40:50 <Karen> ...Secuirty, semiotics
00:40:59 <Karen> ...many families exist
00:41:05 <Karen> ...Mobile, hyperamnesia
00:41:09 <Karen> ...If you want to know more
00:41:21 <timeless> [ applause ]
00:41:27 <timeless> s/Secuirty/Security/
00:41:34 <Karen> Speaker: David Recordon, FaceBook
00:41:58 <Karen> Thank you for invitation to speak today
00:42:04 <Karen> ...I joined FB three months agao
00:42:05 <Karen> s/ago
00:42:11 <Karen> ...Manage open source and standards initiatives
00:42:17 <Karen> ...COmpany has about 20 open source projects
00:42:21 <Karen> ...We react with developers
00:42:30 <Karen> ...I'm looking at how we support developers, do that better
00:42:36 <Karen> ...Make world better, more connect
00:42:39 <Karen> s/connected
00:42:42 <Karen> ...Look at that mission
00:42:46 <Karen> ...do it with standards
00:42:55 <Karen> ...We are happy to do that with any tech that has broad adoption
00:43:05 <Karen> ...My background is about OAUTH, Open ID
00:43:14 <Karen> ...got into that a few years ago before term, Social Web
00:43:24 <Karen> ...pioneer that instead of "versioning" terms
00:43:27 <IanJ> Social Web 2.0!!! 
00:43:34 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #tpac
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00:43:39 <Karen> ...How do we create social services that are interoperabile
00:43:47 <Karen> ..Here is a Tim O'Reilly quote that sticks with me
00:43:53 <Steven> Fabien's slides: http://www.slideshare.net/fabien_gandon/semantics-in-social-networks\
00:44:05 <Karen> ...Open data is increasingly important as services move online."
00:44:13 <Karen> ...No longer just about open source to run mail applicatoin
00:44:19 <Karen> ...but data behind is more important
00:44:20 <timeless> s/applicatoin/application/
00:44:28 <Karen> ...Not nec about how to have access to entire code base
00:44:40 <Karen> ...Always talking about access to data and how to share it in other places
00:44:43 <Karen> ...Trend to open
00:44:51 <Karen> ...Open Source, Open Standards, Open APIs,
00:44:55 <Karen> ...Have access to data
00:44:59 <Karen> s/nec/necessarily
00:45:05 <Karen> ...This is really important
00:45:13 <Karen> ...When I look at Open ID, OAUTH,
00:45:18 <Karen> ...those communities I'm involved with
00:45:27 <Karen> ...I see four characteristics to look at and understand
00:45:32 <Karen> ...why they are successful
00:45:36 <Karen> ...First is about community
00:45:47 <Karen> ...individuals from companies, etc.
00:45:51 <Karen> ...and collaboration 
00:45:56 <Karen> ...not just open source and for profit
00:46:04 <Karen> ...collaboration with these diverse communities
00:46:11 <Karen> ...Both are free to participate and implement
00:46:12 <marie> (/me notes that we'll have slides after this prez)
00:46:14 <Karen> ...Low barriers to entry
00:46:18 <Karen> ...Go and step in
00:46:26 <Karen> ...Eran Hammer-Lahav
00:46:30 <Karen> ...is a good example
00:46:45 <Karen> ...Got involved six to nine months later, have smart opinions and get involved as editor of spec
00:46:53 <Karen> ...Open Source is another aspect
00:46:59 <Karen> ...having in many different languages
00:47:05 <Karen> ...How to use microformats, etc.
00:47:10 <Karen> ...Stems from having large community
00:47:12 <Karen> ...And then adoption
00:47:16 <Karen> ...seeing every year
00:47:20 <Karen> ...get modeled like a half life
00:47:34 <Karen> ...Hubub being supported in just a few months
00:47:41 <Karen> ...Go back to community participation again
00:47:51 <Karen> ...How many people are subscribed to all these different mailing lists?
00:48:01 <silvia1> silvia1 has joined #tpac
00:48:07 <Karen> ...What if people had to pay to subscribe to all these lists to provide feedback
00:48:12 <Karen> ...Really valuable feedback
00:48:26 <Karen> ...Wisdom from all sorts of people, individuals to large corporations
00:48:37 <Karen> ...Again, so what do they need to be successful?
00:48:52 <Karen> ...Mentors, best practices, freedom to participate, infrastructure and tools
00:49:00 <Karen> ...IP, governance and scope, light weight
00:49:06 <Karen> ...much more from open source model
00:49:10 <Karen> ...efforts not large corporations
00:49:12 <Karen> ...not competing
00:49:23 <Karen> ...but all sorts of people who see it values the entire ecosystem
00:49:33 <Karen> ...Policies around how to resolve conflicts not necessarily needed
00:49:40 <Karen> ...once again give my own view of ad hoc approach
00:49:50 <Karen> ...adhoc, OASIS, IETF and W3C
00:50:00 <Karen> ...How do you have these resources for other people?
00:50:06 <Karen> ...I'm for the adhoc approach
00:50:13 <Karen> ...OASIS and W3C is part of cost
00:50:24 <Karen> ...Go in and participate in OASIS or W3C group is quite prohibitive
00:50:29 <Karen> ...for those you want to contribute
00:50:35 <Karen> ...IPR is in eye of beholder
00:50:40 <Karen> ...Look for a clean outcome
00:50:45 <Karen> ...Be friendly to individuals and companies
00:50:48 <Karen> ...Also governance and scope
00:50:58 <Karen> ...Look at in terms of not making all the decisions up front
00:51:07 <Karen> ...not consider outside of 10 things up front
00:51:11 <Karen> ...may have learned some lessons
00:51:17 <Karen> ...Shift to Open Web Foundation
00:51:21 <Karen> ...We created a year ago
00:51:33 <Karen> ...For those who are creating specifications outside of standards bodies
00:51:46 <Karen> ...How to create shared infrastructure and shared tools
00:51:57 <Karen> ...Model of providing tools for the communities working where they are
00:52:01 <Karen> ...May be on a mailing list
00:52:13 <Karen> ...or for W3C to take advantage of the legal work we have done and offer to your own WGs
00:52:18 <Karen> ...Take advantage of that
00:52:28 <Karen> ...and not replace standards bodies that have an important role
00:52:35 <Karen> ...Open Web Foundation Agreement
00:52:45 <Karen> ...Started with four tenets
00:52:55 <Karen> ...Legal document understandable by non-lawyers
00:53:00 <Karen> ...Allow derivative works
00:53:07 <Karen> ...Be written simply
00:53:11 <IanJ> -> http://groups.google.com/group/open-web-legal/web/open-web-foundation---committee-draft-2  Open Web Foundation Agreement - Committee Draft 2    
00:53:20 <Karen> ...How to take a specification and move into a standards body
00:53:34 <Karen> ...think from the beginning; freely implementable specifications
00:53:39 <Karen> ...I have pulled out four things
00:53:45 <Karen> ...Copyright, simple attribution
00:53:50 <Karen> ...Use Creative Commons
00:53:55 <Karen> ...take document and evolve it
00:54:04 <Karen> ...A patent non-assert
00:54:11 <Karen> ...We felt this was really important
00:54:11 <IanJ> David: Patent non-assert that allows you to carry patent rights to derivative works.
00:54:19 <Karen> ...Non Asser Termination
00:54:23 <Karen> ...makes it hard to litigate
00:54:25 <timeless> s/Asser/Assert/
00:54:32 <Karen> ...ensure specs licensed remain free
00:54:38 <Karen> ...and transition into a standards body
00:54:43 <Karen> ...Model that you operate under
00:54:59 <Karen> ...Means that someone creating specification licensed this way, does not have to go back to all the contributors
00:55:02 <timeless> s/you/you [W3C]/
00:55:05 <Karen> ...Was set up from the beginning to do that
00:55:10 <Karen> ...Glossing over a few topics
00:55:18 <Karen> ...Happy to say more in discussion and Q&A
00:55:25 <Karen> ...Web standards that I'm paying attention to
00:55:32 <Karen> ...HTML5 are extremely interesting
00:55:42 <dom> s/are/is/
00:55:43 <Karen> ...Not a social web standard by itself, but what innovation it will enable
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00:55:52 <Karen> [reads list from slide]
00:56:03 <Karen> ...Combine together and create interoperable web services
00:56:08 <Karen> ...Have been called the open stack
00:56:14 <Karen> ...How to interact with people they know
00:56:17 <timeless> s/the open stack/"the open stack"/
00:56:19 <Karen> ...Another piece is getting major adoption
00:56:32 <Karen> ...Many people have not worked inside a standards body
00:56:37 <Karen> ...Many occur ad hoc
00:56:43 <Karen> ...See adoption from non-tech companies
00:56:49 <Karen> ...Looking at role of standards body
00:56:54 <Karen> ...and role that is valuable to these communities
00:57:00 <Karen> ...Continuing to gloss at high level
00:57:07 <Karen> ...Talk about FaceBook, especially the scale
00:57:11 <Karen> ...which blows me away
00:57:15 <Karen> ...and how we are evolving
00:57:25 <Karen> ...8 billion minutes spent on site every day worldwide
00:57:35 <Karen> ...2 billion pieces of content shared every week
00:57:38 <Karen> ...all types of content
00:57:43 <Karen> ...Combination of web browsers, smss
00:57:45 <Karen> s/sms
00:57:56 <Karen> ...Over 2 billion photos uploaded each month
00:58:12 <gond> gond has joined #tpac
00:58:14 <Karen> ...And content is about who's inside the photo, not just what photo is
00:58:20 <dbaron> 15200 years or so, I think
00:58:25 <Karen> ...15K FB Connect implementations
00:58:29 <Karen> ...So scaling challenges
00:58:32 <Karen> ...THink about privacy
00:58:39 <Karen> ...not a traditional scaling problem
00:58:41 <Ileana> Ileana has joined #TPAC
00:58:42 <Karen> ...Have that users data
00:58:44 <timeless> s/THink/Think/
00:58:48 <Karen> ...stored on separate server
00:58:51 <Karen> ...shared by user
00:58:57 <Karen> ...Each user put on different server
00:59:03 <Karen> ...not a lot of complication
00:59:18 <Karen> ...on FB data is interconnected
00:59:27 <Karen> ...We are pulling data from hundreds of different people.
00:59:33 <Karen> ...More complex from scaling perspective
00:59:39 <Karen> ...Choose who you want to share with
00:59:47 <Karen> ...friends, friend of friends, these five people
00:59:52 <Karen> ...adds to the scaling challenges
01:00:00 <Karen> ...Not just pull news feed from my 500 friends
01:00:08 <Karen> ...look at privacy settings and am I allowed to see it
01:00:14 <Karen> ...Need to continue to innovate around that
01:00:19 <Karen> ...We have also looked at social graph
01:00:26 <Karen> ..People are only one dimension
01:00:31 <Karen> ...events, photos, documents
01:00:36 <Karen> ...and I see how the Web evolves also
01:00:42 <Karen> ...from documents to documents and people
01:00:47 <Karen> ...We are interested in working on that
01:01:00 <Karen> ...We have created XMBFL?
01:01:05 <Karen> ...See my photo or not
01:01:06 <timeless> [ wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/XFBML ]
01:01:12 <Karen> ...go update across the web
01:01:18 <Karen> ...how does HTML become social?
01:01:24 <Karen> ...How do people get represented?
01:01:25 <IanJ> s/XMBFL/XFBML/
01:01:32 <Karen> ...How does FaceBook scale worldwide?
01:01:37 <IanJ> 70% of facebook base outside US
01:01:44 <Karen> ...Site is in 65 languages, done by users themselves
01:01:53 <Karen> ...Really community translation
01:02:02 <Karen> ...We have 20 open source projects
01:02:06 <timeless> s/FaceBook/Facebook/
01:02:07 <Karen> ...Next challenges are to scale world wide
01:02:11 <timeless> s/FaceBook/Facebook/g
01:02:13 <Karen> ...to give people ability to share
01:02:15 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
01:02:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
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01:02:17 <Karen> ...with whom sharing
01:02:20 <Karen> ...social identiy
01:02:24 <Karen> ...verified identity
01:02:30 <Karen> ...things I know and what I'm connected wtih
01:02:41 <Karen> ...Looking at HTML and how web represents people
01:02:46 <Karen> ...An interesting question to talk about
01:02:53 <Karen> ...Why should FaceBook become a member of W3C
01:02:59 <Karen> ...things we do related to social, privacy
01:03:05 <Karen> ...I don't have a clear answer
01:03:08 <Karen> ...Try to work with you
01:03:18 <Karen> ...how to make people a real aspect of the web itself?
01:03:26 <timeless> [ applause ]
01:03:29 <Karen> Daniel: That's great, thanks, David
01:03:44 <Karen> ...Maybe one answer to David's question
01:03:50 <timeless> [ Last Slide Title: Why should Facebook become a W3C member? ]
01:03:55 <Karen> ...W3C is where different communities of practice
01:03:56 <timeless> [ slide show ends ]
01:03:58 <Karen> ...come together
01:04:02 <Karen> ...share viewpoints
01:04:06 <Karen> ...and competencies
01:04:14 <Karen> ...Some nashing of teeth
01:04:26 <Karen> ...Nice to have David as guest speaker
01:04:32 <Karen> ...talk about community efforts
01:04:39 <Karen> ...Also been involved running social web camp
01:04:46 <Karen> ...brought in people from community to talk about these issues
01:04:54 <Karen> ...I want to relate a short anecdote
01:05:02 <Karen> ...how social networks are becoming people's lives
01:05:08 <Karen> ...I was sitting at a cafe in London
01:05:13 <Karen> ...two young people were arguing
01:05:16 <Karen> ...not sure what about
01:05:20 <Karen> ...maybe football related
01:05:23 <Karen> [laugh]
01:05:35 <Karen> ...At one point, one person said, "unfriend"
01:05:41 <Karen> ...other one said, "unfriend, unfollow"
01:05:45 <Karen> ...Ok, so questions
01:05:50 <Karen> ...A quick question for Adam
01:06:00 <Karen> ...If you were also expanding what you are doing to supplier network
01:06:01 <Ileana> Ileana has joined #TPAC
01:06:07 <Karen> ...How does that work, what are your challenges there?
01:06:12 <JereK> JereK has left #tpac
01:06:22 <Karen> Adam: Haven't gone down that path yet
01:06:34 <Karen> ...not including suppliers and customers inside our internal social networking platform
01:06:39 <Karen> ...On the horizon but not there yet
01:07:01 <Karen> Ann Bassetti, Boeing: We do have several hundred thousand suppliers and customers that log into our firewall
01:07:07 <Karen> ...to get to other web sites internally
01:07:16 <Karen> ...We have been doing that successfully for a decade
01:07:27 <Karen> ...What Adam is referring to is social interactions through inSite
01:07:31 <Karen> ...We do a lot of collaboration
01:07:35 <Karen> ...this would be the next level up
01:07:44 <Karen> DavidR: Interesting to hear about inSite
01:07:51 <Karen> ...We have similar things inside of FaceBook
01:07:56 <Karen> ...how to find people, find tags
01:08:13 <Karen> AnnB: One of hugest challenges Adam stepped up to is the security restrictions from US gov't
01:08:22 <Karen> ...if someone releases it can be inadvertant
01:08:27 <Karen> ...a whole bunch of variables
01:08:39 <Karen> ...different requirements where we can be fined millions of dollars
01:08:49 <Karen> ...So he set up some taggings for security 
01:08:53 <Karen> ...all kinds of levels
01:09:00 <timeless> [ International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) ]
01:09:07 <Karen> Mike Champion, Microsoft: Adam mentioned that Boeing wants to see standards
01:09:20 <Karen> ...and FaceBook defines community specifications as being satisfactory
01:09:30 <Karen> ...So to Adam, do you really need standards, or more specs
01:09:34 <Karen> Adam: Great question
01:09:43 <Karen> ...It boils down to can we get vendors to implement them
01:09:48 <Karen> ...We bring in commercial blog
01:10:00 <Karen> ...if a standard, we can try to be 800 pound gorilla
01:10:01 <Karen> ...See this today
01:10:13 <Karen> ...industry outside is adopting, but not vendors adopting
01:10:27 <Karen> ...So it may need to be a traditional spec for the vendors to implement
01:10:32 <Karen> ...may have to be wait and see
01:10:48 <Karen> Rotan Hanrahan, MobileAware: you are trying to condense info
01:10:56 <Karen> ...the human being is receiving a huge amount of info
01:11:02 <Karen> ...I fear information overload for the users
01:11:12 <Karen> ...Is there a way to filer the social network to a human level
01:11:25 <Karen> ...My best situation would have plenty of flow, tables and beer mats
01:11:37 <Karen> DavidR: When you look at FB news feed compared to live fed
01:11:40 <Karen> s/fed/feed
01:11:44 <Karen> ...it's algorithmic
01:12:00 <Karen> ...What content did you see, who commented, what content do you interact with
01:12:04 <timeless> <http://www.facebook.com/livefeed>
01:12:06 <Karen> ...versus here is everything you can possibly see
01:12:13 <Karen> Rigo Wenning, W3C: In Open ID
01:12:20 <Karen> ...this specification was discussed
01:12:26 <Karen> ...and whether you align with architectures
01:12:36 <Karen> ...Regarding what's in it for us with W3C
01:12:43 <Karen> ...there is more overhead than a web site and a mailing list
01:12:50 <Karen> ...you see a lot of people; so why are they here
01:12:59 <Karen> ...You could just have a mailing list and a web site
01:13:02 <Karen> ...There is more of it
01:13:22 <Karen> ...Not sure if you here when we discussed privacy, security, internet governance
01:13:28 <Karen> ...social networks are young
01:13:42 <Karen> ...there are more things that come along
01:13:50 <Karen> ...so mailing list and server not enough
01:14:18 <Karen> DavidR: I didn't mean to say way was to create a spec with a mailing list and web site
01:14:27 <Karen> ...doesn't guarantee adoption and success
01:14:33 <Karen> ...interested in the trade-offs
01:14:56 <Karen> Jeremy Carroll, TopQuadrant: W3C standards have been getting better
01:15:17 <Karen> ...recent ones have been clearer before they get to recommendation state, have implementations
01:15:22 <Karen> ...and clear success criteria
01:15:31 <Karen> ...people who have thought about what it means to interoperate
01:15:44 <Karen> ...this community has developed expertise on what it means to interoperate
01:15:50 <Karen> DavidR: Yes, absolutely
01:15:59 <Karen> ...Yes, coming to W3C offers tools that are needed
01:16:05 <Karen> ...but also looking at back of napkin math
01:16:18 <Karen> ...but for OAUTH to be created inside W3C would have cost $20 million
01:16:25 <Karen> Daniel: Tim, do you want to say something?
01:16:34 <Karen> TimBL: Insert three quarter hour of standards bodies
01:16:38 <Karen> ...You talked about two dimensions
01:16:43 <Karen> ...You called it a meritocracy
01:16:49 <Karen> ...friends, put together a spec
01:16:56 <Karen> ...versus an organization with a process
01:16:59 <Karen> ...W3C then, now
01:17:06 <Karen> ...After a while
01:17:10 <Karen> ...one person said stop, wait
01:17:17 <Karen> ...this is not good enough; we need to know certain things
01:17:26 <Karen> ...have more solide ground; criteria for making a standard
01:17:35 <Karen> ...certain level of polity for my company
01:17:46 <Karen> ...and if you organize a meeting, give us 8 weeks' notice
01:17:57 <Karen> ...I have to travel, get permission to travel
01:18:03 <Karen> ...so we created a process document
01:18:19 <Karen> ...I suggest you talk to people about the history, especially Carl Cargill (Adobe)
01:18:26 <Karen> ...Companies came to me to put consortium together
01:18:33 <Karen> ...Web was a fast-moving field
01:18:41 <Karen> ...They felt it was worth their putting money into it
01:18:59 <Karen> ...If you want to put money into it, the ROI; $20K investment 
01:19:05 <Karen> ...compare to number of minutes
01:19:13 <Karen> ...what people on average spend on FaceBook
01:19:22 <Karen> ...if they spend, it would cover $20K
01:19:30 <Karen> David: Yes, I saw this with Open ID
01:19:39 <Karen> ...yes, from the wild west approach to more of process
01:19:42 <Karen> ...Not one approach
01:19:50 <Karen> ...Not just about what it would cost FB to participate
01:20:01 <Karen> ...but to strive for that really broad participation
01:20:05 <Karen> ...It's more than $20K
01:20:10 <Karen> Daniel: We are out of time
01:20:17 <Karen> ...I'd like to thank our panelists
01:20:24 <Karen> ...HOpe it's the start of a conversation
01:20:31 <Karen> ...Reminds me of when Google came up to stage
01:20:39 <Steven> s/HO/Ho/
01:20:39 <Karen> ...and asked why Google should join W3C 
01:20:44 <Karen> ...and now we have TV Raman
01:20:49 <Karen> [crowd laughs]
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01:20:55 <Karen> ...Hope this is start of a new friendship
01:20:58 <Karen> [applause]
01:21:02 <Karen> session ends
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01:21:13 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
01:21:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
01:21:24 <IanJ> Scribe: Jeanne
01:21:52 <timeless> ScribeNick: jeanne 
01:22:06 <jeanne> topic: Lightning talks
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01:23:55 <jeanne> Henry Thompson: This is the final session for today, it is the lightning talks session
01:24:45 <jeanne> topic: Marcos Caceres of Opera: If MacGyver was a spec editor
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01:25:20 <IanJ> topic: Multimodality in Enterprise Applications
01:25:39 <jeanne> s/topic: Marcos Caceres of Opera: If MacGyver was a spec editor/Multimodality i nEnterprise Applications
01:25:39 <IanJ> s/topic: Marcos Caceres of Opera: If MacGyver was a spec editor//
01:25:52 <maraki> maraki has joined #tpac
01:26:17 <jeanne> This is an application the does the input in voice and gestures
01:26:32 <jun> jun has joined #tpac
01:26:58 <timeless> s/ and gestures/, gestures, and photos/
01:27:31 <jeanne> ...[demo of an image of audience, writing on top of it and adding it to the handheld application
01:28:26 <jeanne> ... brought it down into Office 2010, added it as an animation, it is all done with interop with Ink spec and SMIL spec. 
01:28:37 <timeless> InkML - The Ink Markup Language <http://www.w3.org/2002/mmi/ink>
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01:29:06 <timeless> SMIL - Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-smil>
01:29:06 <jeanne> ...shows markup and InkML spec
01:29:58 <IanJ> topic: If MacGyver was a spec editor: simple tools, unbelievable result
01:30:03 <Karen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macgyver
01:30:14 <jeanne> topic: Marcos Caceres of Opera: If MacGyver was a spec editor
01:30:35 <jeanne> I am presenting work we are doing editing the W3C specs
01:30:50 <IanJ> s/W3C/Widgets/
01:31:10 <jeanne> ... There are different parts of the text - the really important are the testable assersions: Must, should, may
01:31:20 <jeanne> ... they need to be tested and verified
01:31:38 <jeanne> ... MUST is expensive it takes an average of 3 tests. 
01:31:42 <timeless> s/assersions/assertions/
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01:32:17 <timeless> [ Slide title: Spec - XHTML ]
01:32:19 <jeanne> ...MacGyver would would bring together a group of tests, mash them together and have the result shown
01:32:42 <timeless> [ (jeanne 's transcription is from ~2 slides back) ]
01:32:55 <timeless> [ (marcos is jumping too fast through his slides) ]
01:33:08 <jeanne> ... given a Spec, look for the ids in the code
01:33:31 <jeanne> ... Reduce your musts, use shoulds and may's with caution, use active voice.  Keep things simple.
01:33:54 <jeanne> Question: How did you get the editor to do the annotations needed? 
01:34:17 <jeanne> Answer: I asked my self,  We created the data that we needed. 
01:34:29 <IanJ> (and was natural based on Anne van Kesteren practices)
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01:35:16 <jeanne> topic: Robin Berjon - A Fresh Specification Writing Tool
01:35:26 <timeless> [ slides fail ACL ]
01:36:09 <jeanne> [moves to the next speaker, slides not working]
01:36:23 <jeanne> topic: Rigo, Privacy and data governance
01:37:38 <jeanne> Don't touch my data: instead of modifiying database, it is just added on to legacy data
01:37:52 <jeanne> ... make the policy travel with the data
01:38:07 <jeanne> ... treated in W3C Workshop on Access Control
01:38:24 <jeanne> ... Next Workshop on Obligations in 2010
01:38:45 <jeanne> Henry thompson: who is your customer, who are you trying to convince?
01:39:14 <jeanne> Rigo: The database professionals, that is who we want to convince.  
01:40:07 <jeanne> Topic: Robin Berjon of Vodophone: A fresh specification writing tool
01:40:15 <dom> s/Vodo/Voda/
01:40:19 <dom> s/phone/fone/
01:40:31 <jeanne> ... Why?  Not because others are bad, but I wanted the spec editors to be able to move faster. 
01:41:01 <jeanne> ... you create a document, you go to the browser, look at it and fix the bugs.  
01:41:35 <jeanne> ... with most of the tools you have to launch another tool.  This saves 30% of the rules.
01:41:45 <jeanne> ... It creates pubrules compliant output
01:41:56 <Steven> Slides http://berjon.com/slides/20091104-respec/_respec.html
01:42:06 <jeanne> ... it pretty much writes the spec for you. 
01:42:22 <dom> -> http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-access/ Example of usage of ReSpec.js in WARP spec
01:42:30 <jeanne> ... it does references and highlighting automatically.
01:42:42 <jeanne> ... it has syntax highlighting in examples
01:43:03 <jeanne> ... Limitations, there are more features being developed. 
01:43:48 <jeanne> Rigo: Can you integrate an EMACS/Eliza tool to write the text for you? [laughs]
01:44:16 <jeanne> DanC: Can you show an example?
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01:45:25 <jeanne> [demos]
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01:46:27 <jeanne> topic:Jacques Durand - TAMElizer
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01:46:44 <dom> -> http://code.google.com/p/tamelizer/ Tamelizer project
01:46:50 <jeanne> Small Open Source code you can download
01:47:05 <jeanne> ... Test assertions are between Spec and Testing
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01:47:42 <jeanne> ... Test Assertion markup language.  Simple markup, it could be more sophisticated for advanced user.
01:47:56 <jeanne> ... the report gives you more diagnostic information
01:48:09 <Steven> Slides: http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1104-tpac-lt2/tamelizer-lightning-final.pdf
01:48:30 <jeanne> ... XML files that are embedded in the documents
01:48:56 <jeanne> ... it can show the individual pass/fail of tests.
01:49:13 <jeanne> ...In the second phase, you do test analysis
01:49:26 <jeanne> ... this is where we do much better than other tools.
01:49:41 <jeanne> ... You can get the entire chain into the Test Report
01:50:12 <jeanne> Henry: What spec did you do this for and how many assertions?
01:50:27 <jeanne> web services operatibility and 250 test assertions
01:51:06 <IanJ> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/EARL10-Guide/ EARL Guide
01:51:12 <jeanne> Shadi: I encourage you to look at the EARL protocol, it is an RDF protocal but backward compatible to XML.
01:52:12 <jeanne> topic: The End of the Beginning Daniel Glazman
01:52:34 <arun> Note that glazou is tilting his screen
01:53:11 <jeanne> demos of rotating cube, fingerprint application (in 15 lines of code) and a game done is SVG that is in Canvas. Very simple
01:53:33 <timeless> s/fingerprint/tilt detector ["level"]/
01:53:35 <jeanne> ... a font dragr to test new fonts
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01:53:56 <timeless> s/a font dragr/"font dragr"/
01:53:58 <IanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
01:53:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html IanJ
01:54:50 <jeanne> Henry: The box you were holding has an accelerometer, right? 
01:54:56 <jeanne> Yes.
01:55:05 <jeanne> Judy: How was the accessibility
01:55:13 <jeanne> Daniel:  I don't know. 
01:55:17 <IanJ> [Reminder: feedback form, thanks!: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2009-feedback/]
01:55:24 <timeless> s/Yes./Yes. All laptops have accelerometers in their hard disk drives to handle shocks./
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01:56:37 <jeanne> Judy: It looks neat.  It would be great if the accessibility support right from the beginning.  Can we be sure we can get you hooked up with the right people to help with that.
01:57:40 <jeanne> Chaas: the accessibility are in the hardware APIs, the hardware knows when it is working.  We have to work on how we make that an accessible application
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01:57:51 <timeless> s/Chaas/Chaals/
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01:57:59 <IanJ> [Applause]
01:58:05 <jeanne> Topic: Ralph closing comments
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01:58:22 <timeless> s/accessible application/acessible application (by making things like canvas accessible)/
01:58:31 <IanJ> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2009-feedback/ Feedback!
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01:58:43 <tantek> I think this might have been the best Tech Plenary Day I have attended. Well done organizers, speakers, and panelists.
01:58:44 <jeanne> This was a large team effort.  I especially want to thank the Internet Society for their generous support.  There is a feedback survey, please complete it. 
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01:59:49 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
01:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
02:01:19 <Steven> i/scribenick: Karen/Scribe: Karen
02:01:24 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
02:01:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html Steven
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02:01:53 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
02:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/04-tpac-minutes.html jeanne
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02:05:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, MeetingRoom, in W3C_TP(*)11:30AM
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02:19:36 <Zakim> W3C_TP(*)11:30AM has ended
02:19:37 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, MeetingRoom
02:19:43 <Ralph> zakim, bye
02:19:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tpac
02:19:47 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
02:19:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items