16:29:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
16:29:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-pf-irc
16:29:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:29:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
16:29:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:29:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM scheduled to start 29 minutes ago
16:29:57 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:29:57 <trackbot> Date: 03 November 2009
16:30:58 <richardschwerdtfe> otay
16:34:40 <kford> kford has joined #pf
16:36:25 <janina> janina has joined #pf
16:41:15 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log public
16:41:34 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: PF Face to Face; logs are public today
16:48:50 <SCain> SCain has joined #pf
16:51:24 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has now started
16:51:31 <Zakim> +Rich
16:53:38 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has left #pf
16:57:53 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #pf
16:59:31 <Zakim> -Rich
16:59:32 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has ended
16:59:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Rich
16:59:41 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has now started
16:59:43 <Zakim> +Salon_7
17:00:06 <Zakim> +Rich
17:00:08 <richardschwerdtfe> Hi Sally
17:00:32 <MichaelC> zakim, salon_7 has Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, Matt_May, Steve_Faulkner, Paul_Cotton, Loretta_Guarino_Reid
17:00:32 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, Matt_May, Steve_Faulkner, Paul_Cotton, Loretta_Guarino_Reid; got it
17:01:13 <richardschwerdtfe> Hi Loretta
17:01:40 <richardschwerdtfe> what is the scribing rotation?
17:01:47 <Laura> Laura has joined #pf
17:01:51 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #pf
17:01:55 <richardschwerdtfe> Hi Laura
17:02:07 <Laura> Hi
17:02:36 <MichaelC> zakim, Cynthia_Shelly has entered salon_7
17:02:36 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
17:03:24 <jcraig> Zakim, Judy_Brewer has entered salon_7
17:03:24 <Zakim> +Judy_Brewer; got it
17:04:53 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the call.
17:04:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', jcraig
17:05:03 <jcraig> Zaim, who is on the phone?
17:05:45 <richardschwerdtfe> I will scribe if you like
17:06:03 <richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich
17:06:07 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #pf
17:06:17 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:06:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Salon_7, Rich
17:06:19 <Zakim> Salon_7 has Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, Matt_May, Steve_Faulkner, Paul_Cotton, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Cynthia_Shelly,
17:06:22 <Zakim> ... Judy_Brewer
17:06:57 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: PF view of the HTML specifications
17:07:06 <cyns> cyns has joined #pf
17:07:37 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: So far our review has been adhoc
17:07:48 <MichaelC> --> http://www.w3.org/2009/08/html5-spec-review PF HTML spec review draft
17:07:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: What I am projecting on the screen is the HTML spec review
17:08:15 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: We broke out the HTML TOC and spread out among reviewers
17:08:27 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: The first column shows the TOC for review
17:08:39 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: The second column is who has reviewed
17:08:54 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: Third column blanks means nothing has been reviewed
17:09:09 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: There are lots of blank sections on the screen still
17:09:22 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: Most work has been done by one person
17:09:29 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: I would like greater participation
17:09:47 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: I have copied the entire TOC and subsections
17:10:02 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: we do have a number of comments throughout the spec. 
17:10:19 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: I have tried to identify the reviewer to know who to ask
17:10:43 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: we should go through the comments received
17:10:58 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: Should we talk about the overlay on the HTML spec. process
17:11:16 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: this is not a formal process but more something we would like to do
17:11:35 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #pf
17:11:36 <MichaelC> --> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Process_to_submit_HTML_spec_comments PF's proposed overlay on HTML issue process
17:11:44 <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
17:12:00 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: PF's proposed overlay on HTML issue process
17:12:23 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: add keyword a11y to the issue. You need keyword access via bugzilla
17:12:54 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: If the working would like to have it be a formal comment it would be EFWG as the key word
17:13:12 <richardschwerdtfe> s/EFWG/PFWG/
17:13:35 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: Adding keywords to bugzilla good
17:13:50 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: welcome Laura
17:14:27 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: are there any questions or comments regarding the process?
17:14:37 <richardschwerdtfe> I can't hear this person
17:15:06 <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: have the UWAWG comments been folded in?
17:15:11 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: no not yet.
17:15:27 <richardschwerdtfe> Kelly: We have been having on going discussions with the wai-cg
17:15:38 <jcraig> s/Kelly/Judy/
17:15:45 <richardschwerdtfe> thanks
17:16:30 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: in some of the cases the comments were reflective of what were already looked at
17:16:44 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: We can always add PFWG comments later
17:17:09 <richardschwerdtfe> Kelly: if you want UWAWG to do that please just tell us what to do
17:17:10 <MichaelC> s/add PFWG comments/add the PFWG keyword to comments/
17:17:26 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: please tag as a11y
17:18:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Laura: I went through a number of them but I am not sure I tagged them all
17:18:36 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: I have all the comments in our tracking page
17:18:56 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: I feel it is stronger if submitted separately. We can just add our plus 1 to them
17:19:14 <Laura> a11y bugs: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG&keywords=a11y
17:19:35 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: If you clearly state the problem and the proposed change the editor may just say done!
17:20:01 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: It is very possible that if you provide a change that identifies a problem and a change it just may be applied
17:20:03 <MichaelC> --> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html HTML WG Decision Policy
17:20:36 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: You should not assume that it goes directly to the HTML working group just because you enter a problem in bugzilla
17:21:01 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: We expects hundreds or thousands of problems logged on HTML 5
17:21:30 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: You can get a response from the editor. You need to decide if you agree or not.
17:21:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: If you don't agree to an editors change on your bug or another's you can escalate to the working group
17:22:29 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: The key here is sending email to the email list
17:22:39 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: Does everyone understand why we are doing this?
17:22:43 <howard> howard has joined #pf
17:23:13 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: The W3C process is pretty liberal. The chairs took on the responsibility of taking putting a procedure in place
17:23:39 <Laura> Process for Bugs and Issues
17:23:40 <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5#head-b8f7f2d5391d0eade067cdacbb9592a9dcbf8b1c
17:23:49 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: we need the process document to take to the director
17:24:06 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: When we issue a last call draft for HTML 5 we will generate a lot of work
17:24:20 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: So, we need solid consensus within the working group
17:24:37 <jcraig> s/we will generate a lot of work/we will get a huge amount of comments, and that will generate a lot of work for us/
17:24:46 <Laura> Writing a Change Proposal
17:24:50 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: there has been a feeling that the only way to change the document is to edit it
17:24:52 <Laura> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html#escalation-step-2b
17:24:58 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: that is not the case
17:25:04 <howard> howard has left #pf
17:25:45 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: when HTML 5 goes to last call it is important to have our own tracking list 
17:26:06 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: PF will sign to initiating some of these
17:26:43 <jcraig> so use the 'a11y' keyword in bugzilla
17:26:47 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: we are trying to have a mechanism to meet the HTML working group's process and our needs
17:27:33 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: Janina, at some point I would like to give a brief update from last night
17:29:20 <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: drag and drop keyboard accessibility is already a semi-active bug
17:30:14 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: When you enter a bug does it refer to  a section of the spec. that it corresponds to?
17:30:23 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: I would not worry about duplicate bugs
17:30:45 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: you can be sure that the receiving groups will correlate bugs
17:30:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: you should react to that by going to the oldest bug
17:31:11 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: the comment may include your opinion on that bug
17:31:48 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: I would not spend time worrying about a duplicate
17:32:02 <richardschwerdtfe> James: in my opinion file the bug vs. risking missing one
17:32:20 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: any further process questions?
17:32:33 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: we should confer with other groups that may be filing bugs
17:33:04 <richardschwerdtfe> Kelly: The WAI CG group should produce a document on how HTML 5 bugs should be handled
17:33:14 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: Hasn't Michael started this?
17:33:25 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: That is what I have on the screen now
17:33:39 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: We have not announced this as we hashed it out on a caucus call
17:34:29 <richardschwerdtfe> RESOLUTION: PF has approved the new process for submitting HTML bugs
17:34:35 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Process_to_submit_HTML_spec_comments
17:34:45 <MichaelC> --> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Process_to_submit_HTML_spec_comments PF's proposed overlay on HTML issue process
17:35:27 <richardschwerdtfe> Kelly: Let's say that UAAG files a bug and HTML 5 does something with it that UAAG or someone else does not like?
17:35:36 <richardschwerdtfe> Kelly: who is the champion?
17:35:53 <richardschwerdtfe> James: The group that raises it should follow up
17:36:09 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: the submitter will get copies
17:36:25 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: our intention is to monitor a11y
17:36:55 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: I suspect this will become a wai  CG discussion topic
17:37:20 <jcraig> s/monitor a11y/monitor issues tagged with a11y but not with pf (or pfwg?) as a way to catch issues we may not be aware of/
17:37:38 <richardschwerdtfe> Kelly: I just want the html 5 task force to have some oversight responsibility
17:38:12 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I think there should be some oversight in the task force to ensure these issues are addressed
17:38:30 <jcraig> s/The group that raises it should/depending on the issue, it may be most appropriate for the group that raises it to/
17:39:23 <richardschwerdtfe> Michael: The task force may agree with the escalation but the submitter should follow through
17:41:03 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: for any issues that somebody has related to accessibility the issue can be assigned to the task force. This is the heart of Steve's question
17:41:10 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: we don't have process for that now
17:41:20 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: The so-called facilitators
17:41:35 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: we will discuss the facilitator issue at 11 today
17:42:37 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: WAI CG discussion with HTML working group chairs and PF chairs
17:42:55 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we don't have a facilitator from the HTML WG
17:43:21 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: WAI believes that a co-led task force is needed to reach consensus
17:43:34 <jcraig> s/believes/believe/
17:43:50 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: we need a way to speed up WAI responses such as the mapping
17:44:04 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: the importance of rapid communication into the HTML issues list
17:44:17 <MichaelC> zakim, Sam_Ruby has entered salon_7
17:44:17 <Zakim> +Sam_Ruby; got it
17:44:20 <jcraig> s/mapping/mapping of ARIA features to HTML 5 features/
17:44:29 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: so, coming back to the wai-aria mapping for low hanging fruit to ensure time to complete the mapping
17:45:02 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: It does not need to be completed so we need to show where we are on it to show progress and where we might be stuck
17:45:09 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: 5 action items
17:45:14 <Laura> Open Issues: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityTrackerIssues#head-296f0770d95b88abd5898f852b48cc771cf52b7c
17:45:19 <richardschwerdtfe> - form task force
17:45:26 <richardschwerdtfe> - engage participants
17:45:30 <Gez> Gez has joined #pf
17:45:36 <richardschwerdtfe> - get wai-aria mapping done quickly
17:45:44 <richardschwerdtfe> - get issues identified
17:46:01 <richardschwerdtfe> - a joint action item to identify developers to help with implementations
17:46:10 <jcraig> s/- form task force/- form task force and find co-facilitator/
17:46:38 <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: it was an opportunity for better communication
17:46:46 <richardschwerdtfe> s/Janina/Judy/
17:47:02 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: I would like to encourage more chair to chair communication
17:47:14 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: I think that is a  fine summary
17:47:42 <jcraig> s/implementations/HTML 5 implementations/
17:48:21 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: do we have a browser that supports all the HTML 5 constructs?
17:48:42 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: we are trying to find a way to engage the WhatWg. ... we are talking about browser implementation support
17:49:04 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: some of are talking about how features got into HTML 5
17:51:12 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: What we really need is not just a theoretical issue
17:51:53 <richardschwerdtfe> judy: there was emphasis that we did not know that people were waiting so urgently on something
17:52:33 <Judy> Judy has joined #pf
17:53:21 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: there is an opportunity for better communication
17:53:50 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: the challenge is to get the what wg involved
17:54:05 <richardschwerdtfe> Paul: is there any way we can emphasize that here is an early prototype
17:56:56 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I think there are logistical issues with working with say IE that does not share what is going into IE9
17:57:16 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: when I went over the action items for last night this is one that is a shared item
17:59:00 <richardschwerdtfe> Sam: I would like to focus on pushing this down
17:59:42 <richardschwerdtfe> Judy: the communication issue regarding what is implemented already is good
18:01:06 <richardschwerdtfe> Sam: Maciej alone is not sufficient
18:02:40 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: the canvas example was posted to the public canvas api working group a week ago
18:03:10 <tantek> tantek has joined #pf
18:05:03 <tantek> tantek has joined #pf
18:05:12 <Zakim> -Rich
18:06:39 <MichaelC> zakim, Paul_Cotton has left salon_7
18:06:39 <Zakim> -Paul_Cotton; got it
18:08:27 <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
18:08:52 <Zakim> +Rich
18:12:21 <SCain> SCain has left #pf
18:29:15 <jcraig> [Offline to meet with MMI WG. We'll be back after that meeting.]
18:34:58 <MichaelC> zakim, John_Foliot has entered Salon_7
18:34:58 <Zakim> +John_Foliot; got it
18:36:00 <richardschwerdtfe> is anyone taking minutes?
18:36:11 <richardschwerdtfe> there is nothing here
18:40:15 <MichaelC> zakim, Sam_Ruby has left salon_7
18:40:15 <Zakim> -Sam_Ruby; got it
18:40:24 <MichaelC> minutes are in #multimodal
18:43:43 <Judy> Judy has joined #pf
18:47:04 <richardschwerdtfe> thank you
19:14:26 <Zakim> -Rich
19:14:49 <Zakim> -Salon_7
19:14:50 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has ended
19:14:52 <Zakim> Attendees were Rich, Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, Matt_May, Steve_Faulkner, Paul_Cotton, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Cynthia_Shelly,
19:14:55 <Zakim> ... Judy_Brewer, Laura_Carlson, Sam_Ruby, John_Foliot
19:15:19 <MichaelC> topic: Joint discussion with MMI
19:15:40 <MichaelC> minutes taken in multimodal channel, probably available at http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-multimodal-minutes
19:26:33 <kford> kford has joined #pf
19:29:37 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #pf
19:31:05 <SCain> SCain has joined #pf
19:31:33 <SCain> Scribe: SCain
19:31:49 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has now started
19:31:50 <Zakim> +Salon_7
19:32:02 <SCain> JS: Need to go on record to say that certain html5 issues are very important to us
19:32:15 <richardschwerdtfe> has this meeting started yet
19:32:18 <richardschwerdtfe> ?
19:32:26 <richardschwerdtfe> thanks
19:32:39 <MichaelC> zakim, Salon_7 has Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, Matt_May, Steve_Faulkner, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Cynthia_Shelly, John_Foliot
19:32:39 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, Matt_May, Steve_Faulkner, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Cynthia_Shelly, John_Foliot; got it
19:32:42 <SCain> CS: We need to come up with things for break out sessions in HTML5 WG
19:32:44 <Zakim> +Rich
19:32:55 <SCain> CS: I know we want to talk about html5 and aria mappings
19:33:06 <SCain> CS: Canvas accessibility, summary, others?
19:33:20 <SCain> SF: Not sure about summary
19:33:33 <SCain> JC: Canvas definately
19:33:42 <SCain> JS: We want to make sure Rich can be dialled in on that
19:34:40 <SCain> RS: All my info is posted to the canvas discussion
19:34:51 <jcraig> s/Canvas definately/Canvas accessibility definitely, though I won't be available that day./
19:34:55 <SCain> CS: If we want to talk about it we can pitch it
19:35:43 <SCain> CS: Pitch a break out session?
19:36:12 <SCain> RS: Not available Thursday and Friday
19:36:34 <SCain> JC: The general idea has been discussed and we need to get specifics
19:36:53 <SCain> RS: Please look at the proposal
19:37:11 <SCain> RS: I have had some discussions with Alex that went out today
19:37:34 <SCain> RS: We might have to provide for equivalent stuff for canvas too
19:37:44 <SCain> RS:
19:37:55 <Judy> Judy has joined #pf
19:37:59 <SCain> CS: What should we pitch for Thursday?
19:38:17 <SCain> RS: Do we know if Canvas is in or out of the spec?
19:39:11 <SCain> FO: It has been moved to a separate spec
19:40:18 <SCain> RS: Alex is looking at the shadow issue. Tabindex is a concern as it is usually rendered and what is the impact of this? Frank has created an example of a shadow DOM. Alex is working with them to expose the shadow DOM where we could add aria properties to.
19:41:09 <SCain> RS: This is a multi-stage process. We may need accessibility API applied to objects. We may need to have alternative views, dependant on what the user asks for. We could through the API switch the view. 
19:41:49 <SCain> CS: In addition to that fallback we do need accessibility in the main content also
19:42:13 <SCain> RS: Not sure if we have time to engineer an API for canvas
19:42:28 <SCain> CS: If we have a breakout on Canvas we may need to discuss this.
19:43:16 <SCain> FO: From my position we don't need new API's. Need some way for tools and checkers to see if it has been marked as accessible. Need some way of marking canvas.
19:43:32 <SCain> CS: Run into this with plug-ins
19:44:03 <SCain> SF: Are we assuming that for keyboard based accessibility it is encumbered on the developer to build that accessibility in
19:44:11 <SCain> CS: that is one thing being discussed
19:44:49 <SCain> KF: Have you thought about alternative method of activation?
19:45:00 <SCain> KF: Voice input for example?
19:45:30 <SCain> CS: We are still figuring that out. We could do something that exposes the elements in canvas to MSAA
19:45:55 <SCain> CS: I would like to make it easier on developers
19:46:35 <SCain> SF: New library out called MooArt. It is building widgets with Canvas
19:47:07 <SCain> JC: Canvas is the custom view within html. 
19:47:10 <richardschwerdtfe> As a general strategy, browsers like FF will need to consider having the accessibility object model a reflection of what is not visible for technologies like SVG and canvas. When I brought ARIA to W3C the intent was to leverage the existing visible DOM as it is very much like today's GUIs. This will support HTML markup for a very long time. Yet, SVG and canvas are different animals. Here, your model is more like a collection of drawing primitives. Our sol
19:47:10 <richardschwerdtfe> needs to be one where we either:
19:47:10 <richardschwerdtfe> 1. provides an accessibility tree (hidden as you point out) bound loosely to what is being drawn and makes use of ARIA 1.0
19:47:10 <richardschwerdtfe> 2. provides for an accessibility API bound to these objects (longer term). Will require an ARIA 2.0 approach allowing for customization
19:47:13 <richardschwerdtfe> 3. allows for equivalent alternative content
19:47:24 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #pf
19:47:46 <SCain> RS: Discussing what posted into IRC
19:47:51 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #pf
19:48:49 <SCain> CS: I am not sure we have to have the discussion about what canvas accessibility means now, but lets pitch the discussion for thursday/friday. 
19:49:30 <SCain> RS: We want to have a shadow DOM that can be bound to the UI, what are the keyboard issues? What about the ability to have alternative views?
19:49:38 <SCain> CS: Shadow DOM vs direct API access
19:49:50 <SCain> JC: Tabindex vs activedescendant
19:50:12 <SCain> JC: Activedescendant will not solve all of the long term problems
19:50:48 <SCain> CS: Uncomfortable about the shadow DOM
19:51:03 <SCain> JC: Feel the same way about API rendering
19:51:05 <jcraig> s/Canvas is the custom view within html./Operating Systems have always had custom views. Canvas is just the custom view within HTML and therefore there is more responsibility on the author to 'hook up' the accessibility./
19:51:25 <SCain> RS: How would you go about swapping views?
19:51:37 <jcraig> s/API rendering/authors having direct access to the accessibility APIs/
19:52:51 <SCain> CS: We need to work with tools vendors and ATAG
19:53:17 <richardschwerdtfe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2009OctDec/0024.html
19:53:59 <SCain> RS: Equivalent alternatives are sometimes more usable
19:54:08 <SCain> KF: But we would need it to be available
19:54:36 <SCain> JS: What is the alternative? Accessibility issue alone will not keep Canvas out of HTML5
19:54:49 <SCain> CS: Influencing developer behaviour
19:54:59 <SCain> CS: Making it easier, automatic...
19:55:32 <SCain> JC: the shadow DOM approach is not easy. Have javascript libraries implement 
19:56:19 <SCain> CS: Having a starting point is fine. Who will do the pitch?
19:56:29 <SCain> FO: I am happy to do the pitch
19:56:41 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #pf
19:56:53 <SCain> RS: Please talk to me if you want to discuss anything
19:57:05 <SCain> KF: The browser would change what it renders?
19:57:08 <SCain> RS: Yes
19:57:34 <SCain> KF: This would have implications for user agent guidelines. Please keep me informed.
19:57:44 <SCain> JC: What rendering would change?
19:58:54 <SCain> RS: If I wanted a text modality, you could put in a piechart and so I would want the equivalent text modality of that. This would then be rendered where the piechart was. 
19:59:04 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #pf
19:59:09 <SCain> RS: Do it through browser prefs or screen reader
19:59:22 <SCain> KF: There are big implications for user agent
19:59:53 <SCain> KF: If this view is available, give it to me
20:00:05 <SCain> JC: This is reasonable and falls within UAAG
20:00:32 <SCain> RS: This is one example, SVG will be another. Let the user make the preference.
20:00:56 <SCain> CS: Are there other things that we want to have breakout with html?
20:01:18 <SCain> RS: Good time to have the discussion around mapping.
20:01:21 <kford> Just as an FYI, UAAG 2.0 is looking a fall back content.  We likely need to think/expand some of this to address some of the newer technologies.
20:01:22 <SCain> CS: Yes
20:01:48 <oedipus> deprecation of use of TABLE for layout, as BLOCKQUOTE was deprecated in HTML 4.01 for styleistic purposes
20:02:30 <SCain> RS: How would you make drag and drop accessible. How do we approach that in the spec.
20:02:40 <SCain> JS: Good topic for conversation. 
20:02:48 <SCain> CS: Do we have the people we need for that
20:03:14 <SCain> JC: Need to be able to mark something for selection. Methods aren't set out to allow that.
20:03:30 <SCain> CS: Rich not there or JC so anyone else?
20:04:05 <kford> For UAAG on alternatives, this is still rough and as I say needs to be expanded but see 3.1 of http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090722/
20:04:27 <SCain> JC: We could file this as a bug
20:04:51 <SCain> JS: Then lets escalate it
20:05:37 <SCain> JS: John are you planning to talk about Sunday?
20:05:52 <SCain> JF: I can share my impressions of what came out of that day?
20:06:03 <SCain> JS: Would like to have a conversation about raising that
20:06:04 <jcraig> s/Sunday/the accessible media summit on Sunday
20:06:13 <SCain> CS: Anything else?
20:06:52 <SCain> SC: Read GJR comment
20:07:12 <SCain> JS: Put a bug in on that Gregory with an a11y keyword
20:07:23 <SCain> JC: Could be a note in the spec?
20:07:45 <jcraig> s/spec/spec, rather than a 'deprecation'
20:08:13 <SCain> CS: Mappings, Canvas Accessibility, Summary of Accessible Media/Video Accessibility
20:08:26 <richardschwerdtfe> back in an hour
20:08:28 <SCain> JS: Break for lunch - back for 13.00 PT
20:08:33 <Zakim> -Rich
20:09:18 <Zakim> -Salon_7
20:09:19 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has ended
20:09:20 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Kelly_Ford, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, Matt_May, Steve_Faulkner, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Cynthia_Shelly, John_Foliot, Rich
20:09:44 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has now started
20:09:51 <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
20:10:48 <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
20:10:50 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has ended
20:10:50 <Zakim> Attendees were Laura_Carlson
20:55:00 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #pf
20:57:38 <SCain> SCain has joined #pf
20:57:39 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #pf
20:57:46 <Judy> Judy has joined #pf
21:03:20 <MichaelC> zakim, call salon_7
21:03:20 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
21:03:21 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(TPAC)11:00AM has now started
21:03:22 <Zakim> +Salon_7
21:03:32 <SCain> JS: DAISY underestimated what they can bring to the table as regards accessible media
21:04:10 <SCain> JF: Scalability is something we are always going to grapple with
21:04:21 <MichaelC> zakim, salon_7 has Steve_Faulkner, Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, John_Foliot
21:04:21 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner, Janina_Sajka, Sally_Cain, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, James_Craig, Frank_Olivier, John_Foliot; got it
21:04:25 <SCain> JS: Requirements gathering will happen fast, make sure yours are in there
21:04:35 <SCain> JS: There is a lot existing to borrow from
21:05:00 <MichaelC> zakim, Kelly_Ford has entered salon_7
21:05:00 <Zakim> +Kelly_Ford; got it
21:05:18 <SCain> JS: I thought Sunday's meeting was an excellent start
21:05:24 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #pf
21:05:43 <SCain> Topic: Bugs to file on html5
21:05:57 <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
21:06:18 <SCain> JS: We need to file these things correctly within process
21:06:22 <MichaelC> zakim, Matt_May has entered salon_7
21:06:22 <Zakim> +Matt_May; got it
21:07:04 <SCain> JS: Low hanging issues, Canvas
21:07:21 <SCain> JS: We could move to flag it as something we care about
21:07:34 <SCain> JS: Video, audio, alt for example
21:07:58 <SCain> MC: In existing bugs for canvas there is one bug that has been bounced back
21:08:06 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #pf
21:08:19 <SCain> MC: Outlining issues closed and open for canvas
21:08:52 <kford> kford has joined #pf
21:08:52 <SCain> MC: Do we need to mark it as pfwg?
21:09:14 <SCain> JS: any objection to identifying canvas?
21:09:53 <Zakim> +Rich
21:10:33 <SCain> RESOLUTION: Identify Canvas as an issue to be noted in Bugzilla
21:12:14 <SCain> MC: Adding notes to the bugzilla formally as pfwg
21:12:17 <richardschwerdtfe> "public-canvas-api@w3.org" <public-canvas-api@w3.org>
21:12:56 <Zakim> -Rich
21:15:12 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
21:17:08 <SCain> JS: Are there bugs filed for video/auio?
21:17:19 <SCain> MC: Bug 5758
21:18:50 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #pf
21:19:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
21:19:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-pf-minutes.html oedipus
21:19:07 <SCain> MC: Tag this with pfwg
21:19:45 <oedipus> chair: Janina_Sajka
21:20:04 <SCain> JS: Is there objection to putting pf on record?
21:20:45 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Table/LayoutTABLEDeprecation
21:21:13 <oedipus> no
21:21:36 <SCain> RESOLUTION: Identify <video> and <audio> as an issue of interest formally to pfwg
21:21:51 <SCain> s/Identify/Identified
21:22:02 <SCain> SF: Alt
21:22:28 <oedipus> accesskey replacement requirement?
21:23:02 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements
21:23:16 <SCain> MC: Bug numbers for alt are 6494, 7362, 7144
21:23:21 <oedipus> accesskey currently a "dropped" feature of HTML5
21:23:42 <oedipus> tabindex also "dropped
21:24:14 <SCain> MC: Issue 31 and Issue 66 in tracker
21:24:24 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #PF
21:24:42 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DroppedAttributeAccesskey
21:24:54 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DroppedAttributeTabindex
21:25:09 <SCain> SF: Outlining Bug 7362
21:26:14 <SCain> SF: Question is around the algorithm
21:26:20 <oedipus> set a cascade - alt, title...
21:26:27 <SCain> CS: Do nothing?
21:27:00 <oedipus> where is the current iteration of the algorithm?
21:27:21 <MichaelC> zakim, Lachlan_Hunt has entered salon_7
21:27:21 <Zakim> +Lachlan_Hunt; got it
21:28:05 <oedipus> :-(
21:28:40 <oedipus> q+ to ask where can one find the latest iteration of the algorithm?
21:28:43 <oedipus> ack me
21:28:43 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask where can one find the latest iteration of the algorithm?
21:29:12 <oedipus> q+
21:29:37 <oedipus> q-
21:29:47 <SCain> GJR: Wanted to ask for latest iteration of the algorithm
21:30:11 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #pf
21:30:23 <cyns> cyns has joined #pf
21:30:32 <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-img-element
21:31:25 <oedipus> q+ to ask SF, what if there is a LEGEND or CAPTION?
21:31:32 <oedipus> ack me
21:31:32 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask SF, what if there is a LEGEND or CAPTION?
21:32:02 <oedipus> does the algorithm allow for binding of multiple images as in the 3 stages of a butterfly's life?
21:32:11 <SCain> SF: Then it is used
21:32:31 <SCain> JS: Lets avoid weeds and formally get behind WAI consensus document
21:32:57 <SCain> SF: Issues with consensus document that have been discussed in html WG
21:32:59 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecificElements
21:33:05 <Laura> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
21:33:19 <tantek> tantek has joined #pf
21:33:30 <janina> janina has joined #pf
21:36:42 <Stevef> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0781.html
21:36:43 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeExamples
21:37:18 <SCain> MC: Entering new spec proposal on text alternatives from WAI
21:38:11 <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5#head-b71039f2e7034a77a833e320831d9f3a369b7f16
21:38:19 <Zakim> +Rich
21:38:46 <SCain> MC: Note tracker issue 31 relation
21:39:14 <Laura> HTML WG ACTION-131: (draft ALT spec). 
21:40:11 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
21:40:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-pf-minutes.html oedipus
21:40:19 <Laura> Equivalent Content for Static Images Links: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5#head-4a8ad6c340c8cf3a2e535f3cf21629d4a43a9612
21:40:30 <SCain> LH: Can you summarise the practical changes?
21:40:55 <SCain> MC: Outlines the issue
21:41:03 <oedipus> i/scribe: Rich/scribenick: richardschwerdtfe
21:41:14 <oedipus>  rrsagent, make minutes
21:41:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-pf-minutes.html oedipus
21:41:48 <oedipus> gregorian versus greggorian
21:42:19 <oedipus> i thought we agreed to this months ago...
21:42:43 <SCain> LH: Omit alt attibute only in email?
21:42:56 <SCain> SF: Also the algorithm
21:43:06 <oedipus> can't hear lachy
21:43:15 <SCain> CS: I think our list is shorter and different
21:43:32 <SCain> MC: Bug 6494
21:43:49 <SCain> MC: Bug 7144
21:43:53 <SCain> MC: Both are alt bugs
21:44:10 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/TextAlternativeExamples#head-84fb10a6896277816eb8f081d16b2a9223e8a459
21:44:25 <oedipus> 3 stages of a butterfly's life example with alt and LEGEND, etc.
21:45:07 <SCain> JS: This could be a proposed discussion in the html accessibility taskforce
21:45:38 <SCain> JS: Is there an issue on longdesc
21:45:47 <SCain> LC: Issue 30 in tracker
21:45:56 <oedipus> i'll go for deprecating LONGDESC if we also ask for deprecation of TABLE for layout
21:46:18 <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/0949.html
21:46:22 <oedipus> what is our stance? where articulated
21:46:25 <oedipus> thanks, laura
21:46:39 <SCain> LC: There was a thread around longdesc
21:46:51 <SCain> LH: CMN wants longdesc added to the spec
21:46:57 <jcraig> oedipus, can you hear lachy?
21:47:15 <richardschwerdtfe> I don't want longdesc
21:47:19 <SCain> JS: We are suggesting aria-describedby
21:47:22 <oedipus> The attribute is described already in HTML 4 [1] and the description can  be re-used, although it should be made clear that the URI to which  longdesc refers can be a relative reference to some part of the same page  (in order to be explicit about which content is associated with the  image), or a different page. The example, which references an image but  appears to provide useless alt text should not be copied from HTML 4. ([1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/
21:47:24 <SCain> SF: Problem there
21:47:43 <oedipus> what about legacy content, which includes W3C TRs
21:47:51 <SCain> SF: aria-describedby does not do the job, but not saying we need to go back to longdesc
21:48:08 <oedipus> where is the longdesc to HTML5 mapping and can we reference an external as well as internal IDREF
21:48:34 <SCain> JF: What would pf position be?
21:48:35 <oedipus> putting cart before horse
21:48:45 <oedipus> no to deprecate LONGDESC at the present time
21:49:01 <SCain> SF: We need to get aria-describedby implemented
21:49:08 <oedipus> amen, kelly
21:49:10 <SCain> KF: should not lose longdesc
21:49:26 <oedipus> GJR agrees with KF
21:49:38 <SCain> SF: Some people say that the content that has it is generally useless.
21:49:44 <SCain> KF: I disagree
21:49:54 <richardschwerdtfe> longdesc should be burried in the back yard. :-)
21:49:59 <SCain> SF: I did not say I agreed with that position
21:50:12 <oedipus> should have held out 13 years ago for DESCREF
21:50:43 <oedipus> content is useful in CSS2 spec, RWAB XG report, etc.
21:50:49 <oedipus> longdesc content, that is
21:51:05 <oedipus> are you speaking RDFa?
21:51:57 <SCain> JF: jonas sicking noted that they are going to remove longdesc in a future version of Firefox
21:52:08 <Laura> Chaals' ISSUE-30 (Longdesc) Change Proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/0949.html
21:52:42 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/XGR-app-backplane-20091030/
21:52:57 <oedipus> RWAB XG final report - section on a11y and 9 longdescs
21:53:19 <oedipus> uses WCAG2 C7 in D links to disambiguate them
21:53:52 <oedipus> JF, what version of FF support LONGDESC natively without plugin?
21:54:13 <SCain> JS: we have been asked to log things in bugzilla for process
21:54:50 <oedipus> q+ should i log my D element and dialogue stuff to the bugzilla or tracker?
21:55:09 <SCain> RESOLUTION: Bug 8171 recorded as PFWG on record as regards alt
21:55:13 <oedipus> q+ to ask if i should log my D element and dialogue stuff to the bugzilla or tracker
21:57:04 <SCain> GJR: should I log my D element and dialogue stuff to the bugzilla or tracker?
21:57:25 <SCain> JS: We are trying to be on record with issues
21:57:41 <SCain> JS: You should look at minutes from this morning as regards process
21:57:48 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
21:57:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-pf-minutes.html oedipus
21:58:00 <SCain> GJR: OK
21:58:13 <oedipus> what about the future of our relationship to the activity formerlly known as XHTML2?
21:59:11 <Lachy> oedipus, what's your D element and dialogue stuff proposal? Can you post a link?
21:59:20 <oedipus> deprecation of PRE - unecessary with CODE and SAMP or BLOCKCODE
21:59:25 <oedipus> lachy, one second...
21:59:46 <Laura> Have to go now. Bye.
22:00:11 <oedipus> lachy, http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/20090917181951.M66606@hicom.net;list=public-html
22:00:22 <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
22:00:38 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/0725.html
22:00:51 <SCain> s/video/auio/video/audio
22:00:52 <oedipus> better URI for dialogue issues logged 
22:01:37 <SCain> JS: We can get back to summary later
22:01:51 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Table/LayoutTABLEDeprecation
22:01:58 <oedipus> very short and simple
22:02:10 <SCain> SF: What about drag and drop?
22:02:18 <SCain> JS: I am sure we can go on record with that
22:02:26 <oedipus> PROPOSED: The use of TABLE for layout be DEPRECATED. 
22:02:30 <oedipus> RATIONALE: Just as use of BLOCKQUOTE to achieve a stylistic effect was DEPRECATED in favor of stylesheets in HTML 4.01, so, too, should use of TABLE for layout and stylistic purposes should be DEPRECATED in favor of stylesheets. 
22:02:56 <oedipus> Proposal Specifics
22:03:01 <oedipus> 1.TABLE should be reserved for tabular data, not for layout purposes; use of TABLE for layout is misuse of a structural element for stylistic purposes 
22:03:04 <oedipus> 2.TABLE should be deprecated for "layout" purposes in favor of CSS 
22:03:07 <oedipus> 3.for legacy content, a TABLE used for layout MUST be assigned, either by an author or user agent, role="layout" or role="presentation" for that TABLE. 
22:03:13 <oedipus> Q.E.D.
22:03:24 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #pf
22:03:34 <Stevef> scribe:Stevef
22:03:43 <oedipus> scribenick: Stevef
22:03:49 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
22:03:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-pf-minutes.html oedipus
22:03:52 <oedipus> thanks sally
22:03:53 <janina> janina has joined #pf
22:04:14 <oedipus> please check layout table deprecation
22:06:11 <Stevef> MC: looking at bug 7721 trying to determine whether it has sufficient detail?
22:06:40 <oedipus> can't we point them at ARIA to suggest an accessible drag and dropping model
22:07:21 <oedipus> rich, have to check the dev.w3.org version of the spec - and you can sign up for update tweets via WHATWG web site
22:07:23 <Stevef> Rich: is it clear in regards to how to impliment or author keyboard accessible drag and drop
22:07:47 <oedipus> will be tweeted when any of HTML5 WG pubs updated
22:08:46 <oedipus> we've already done a lot of the heavy work when it comes to select, drag/copy and drop
22:09:31 <oedipus> can't we reuse what we've done via ARIA to inform them on drag and drop?
22:09:54 <Stevef> Rich: needs explicit explanantion of how to implement keyboard access in browsers for drag and drop
22:10:14 <oedipus> can't hear cyns
22:10:46 <Stevef> MC: implement PF tag
22:11:07 <oedipus> in the body of the spec where drag and drop are introduced]
22:11:18 <oedipus> plus 1 to MC's suggestion
22:11:55 <Stevef> Rich to submit a change proposal on drag and drop
22:14:20 <Stevef> MC: will keep the bug open until rich gets his act together on the change proposal
22:14:53 <Stevef> MC: volunteer rich for a rough deadline to submit change proposal for drag and drop
22:16:23 <oedipus> YES avoid
22:17:10 <Stevef> resolution: bug 7721 PFWG agreed official issue status of drag and drop
22:17:39 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DroppedAttributeAccesskey
22:17:46 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements
22:18:04 <oedipus> we have a requirements document which has  been extant for over a year
22:18:18 <Stevef> MC: implement accesskey element from XHTML 2
22:18:26 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DroppedAttributeTabindex
22:18:49 <Stevef> Lachlan: command element supersedes accesskey
22:19:20 <oedipus> rich's requirements for access key replacement: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements#head-f89f1a568780ea2fbe40a5995b02e3d36073cb47
22:19:36 <richardschwerdtfe> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-accesskey-attribute
22:19:58 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements#head-f89f1a568780ea2fbe40a5995b02e3d36073cb47
22:20:05 <richardschwerdtfe> Optionally, the user agent may assign a key combination of its choosing as the element's assigned access key and then abort these steps. 
22:20:53 <Stevef> JS: what do we want re access/accesskey?
22:20:55 <oedipus> XHTML Access Module: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-access/ (Last Call draft)
22:20:56 <Lachy> I didn't say the command element superscedes accesskey, I said accesskey can be used on the command element
22:21:32 <oedipus> UAWG and SVG WG made significant contributions to XHTML Access Module
22:21:56 <oedipus> hard to hear anyone other than MC
22:24:33 <Stevef> Rich: would be useful to review current accesskey stuff in spec and fo gap analysis in relation to access module.
22:25:00 <richardschwerdtfe> they won't take a curie :-)
22:25:02 <Judy> Judy has joined #pf
22:25:11 <Judy> Judy has left #pf
22:25:12 <richardschwerdtfe> hi Judy
22:26:00 <Stevef> CS: gregory do you want to take an action to do a change propsoal, go through stuff on the wiki and write a change proposal
22:26:14 <oedipus> GJR to investigate access, access-label, command element
22:26:40 <oedipus> hoping to do for access module what was done for RDFa in HTML5
22:27:04 <oedipus> in other words, yes to cyns
22:27:47 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - review current access key / accesskey type attributes in HTML5 and propose from XHTML Access Module
22:27:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-537 - - review current access key / accesskey type attributes in HTML5 and propose from XHTML Access Module [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2009-11-10].
22:27:58 <Stevef> MC: another potential issue, accesskey in xhtml can specify modifiers keys as well, couldn't in html4, html5 does
22:28:48 <Stevef> CS: goal is to bring accesskey in line with accesskey module
22:28:49 <oedipus> will carry through on input from UAWG and SVG WG
22:29:12 <oedipus> as reflected in the LC draft of XHTML Access Module
22:29:44 <oedipus> there is an outstanding XHTML2 WG issue on adding more roles to the default list of roles, in particular role="search"
22:29:50 <oedipus> er, role="form"
22:29:57 <Stevef> MC: not seeing ability to combine author/user and usagent defaults to role based access keys
22:30:08 <oedipus> we have role="search", but need role="form" and that should be native to the Role module
22:31:11 <Stevef> GJR: will write proposal before we file bug in tracker
22:31:55 <oedipus> agenda addition suggestion: what to do with the work being done in XHTML2 WG now that XHTML2 itself has been dropped - extending Role, ARIA's relation to role, etc.
22:31:59 <foliot> foliot has joined #pf
22:33:19 <oedipus> SF, hope you can type and talk because i can't hear you!
22:33:32 <foliot> foliot has left #pf
22:34:46 <MichaelC> zakim, Loretta_Guarino_Reid has entered Salon_7
22:34:46 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid; got it
22:37:26 <Stevef> kellyford:broader class of issues, HTML can create very mouse centric issues, but we need to guard against it.
22:38:04 <oedipus> fyi: http://blog.amplesdk.com/2009/10/31/set-to-go-open-source/
22:39:14 <oedipus> i'm an opera volunteer, so if you implement it, i WILL test it!
22:39:38 <Stevef> MC: do we need to add PFWG to closed bugs? - agrred no
22:40:47 <Stevef> lachlan: scope not allowed on td at the moemnt, so don't know why its fixed
22:42:11 <Stevef> MC: no value, in fixing dupes on fixed header bugs
22:43:43 <oedipus> don't forget http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Table/LayoutTABLEDeprecation
22:45:02 <oedipus> janina, thanks - will rejoin then
22:45:14 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
22:52:12 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #pf
22:52:55 <Stevef> JS: want more specificty on language selection
22:58:51 <richardschwerdtfe> wow. I just noticed Tantek is in the team room. There is a name I have not heard in a while
22:59:31 <tantek> hello richardschwerdtfe
22:59:44 <richardschwerdtfe> how are you?
22:59:59 <richardschwerdtfe> are you still at that search company?
23:03:02 <Stevef> break for 1/2 hour until 3:30 pacific time
23:05:01 <Zakim> -Rich
23:13:06 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #pf
23:14:16 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
23:14:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/03-pf-minutes.html oedipus
23:29:30 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #pf
23:33:26 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
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23:34:29 <oedipus> should i call back after the demo?
23:35:28 <oedipus> can you check it without the mouse ;-)
23:35:53 <oedipus> nice and clear, james
23:36:48 <oedipus> is the demo available online?
23:37:11 <Zakim> +Rich
23:38:02 <richardschwerdtfe> do you have a link?
23:38:40 <richardschwerdtfe> i see
23:38:58 <richardschwerdtfe> ok
23:39:51 <richardschwerdtfe> So, James can you post your demo to the public canvas discussion?
23:41:39 <oedipus> mount demo on he codetalks wiki?
23:43:49 <oedipus> q+ to sugges that it be part of proposed followup work to RWAB XG
23:44:36 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/app-backplane/XGR-app-backplane/
23:45:24 <oedipus> q?
23:47:13 <Stevef> CS: issues with use of shadow DOM
23:47:49 <Stevef> JC: long development time for alternative approaches
23:48:40 <Stevef> GJR: backplane put out report into using scripts to support declaritive langauges not supported in brwosers
23:50:43 <Stevef> GJR: get accessibility built in to scripting
23:50:50 <oedipus> good news, rich
23:51:42 <Stevef> CS: aria works well for retrofitting, but not for new development
23:52:39 <Stevef> GJR: we needed ARIA 10 years ago, my understanding is that everything in ARIA needs to be nativ ely supported in HTML5?
23:53:34 <Stevef> MC: ARIA is specifically a bridging technology, we want them all to be replaced, but need to focus on making ARIA do what it needs to do
23:54:13 <Stevef> RICH: developers want to do their own thing so we need both
23:55:05 <Stevef> CS: people do custom controls because cannot display native controls using CSS as desired
23:56:05 <Stevef> MC: we should be supporting the a11y engineering to support declaritive markup that can be styled  as desired
23:56:31 <Stevef> JS: closer to builtin in HTML5 than HTML4
23:56:40 <oedipus> amen to MC
23:56:53 <Stevef> JS: thanks for the demo, but lets get onto more bugs
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