IRC log of wam on 2009-11-02

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-wam-irc
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Meeting: Widgets F2F Meeting in Santa Clara CA US
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Date: 2 November 2009
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Chair: Art
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ScribeNick: ArtB
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Scribe: Art
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Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2009Widgets#Monday.2C_November_2
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Present: Art, Marcos, Benoit, Magnus
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Topic: Agenda Review
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AB: Agenda is http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2009Widgets#Monday.2C_November_2
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AB: any change requests?
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AB: the agenda includes some specs that will not be on the agenda
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BS: when does widgets meet with DAP?
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AB: today 15:30-16:30
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BS: on a recent call, we talked about widgets and html5 and caching
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... think this is something we need to state
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... eg where do we define that
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... we don't have to take it now but should figure out who are the right people to chat
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AB: can you take an action to define the problem statement?
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BS: I'm not that familiar with that subject
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MC: I think the topic is well known
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BS: but has the interaction been stated or defined?
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MC: they just work together
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AB: I think we need to differentiate overlapping specs and synergistic usage of HTML5 specs
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MC: we don't create overlapping specs with HTML5
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AB: how do we want to handle this?
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... put it on the agenda of a VC?
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MC: I think we've talked about this before
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... we can talk about App Cache's uses by widgets
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AB: on the way to SFO I created http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Coordination
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if a wua is online and doesn't offer caching, will the widget author complain?
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... this is intended to capture various "coordination points"
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http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/TPAC2009Widgets#Monday.2C_November_2
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[ Art adds a new "Widgets and HTML5" section to the Coordination wiki ]
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MO: what about HTML4
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MC: we have a dependency on some parts of HTML5
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MO: at least one of the widgets specs references an HTML5 spec
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MC: yes, the TWI spec references Web Storage
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... it does mean we can't progress to REC until Web Storage is more mature
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AB: re plans, I added a new Plans column to our PubStatus page http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus
17:30:05 [Benoit]
great
17:30:16 [ArtB]
... this provides useful data to the WG and the Public
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... my expectation is that by the end of the day tomorrow, the Plans will have the best data we have for each of WebApps specs
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AB: Hixie told me a week or so ago he expects Web Storage to be ready for LC in November
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... I believe that spec already has a number of impls
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MC: that was true but isn't so any more given the new Structured Clones stuff that has been added
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... with structued clones can now store more complex structues
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... and it has no serialization syntax
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AB: we will discuss TWI spec tomorrow morn for 1.5 hours
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... we should add Web Storage status and related discussions
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AB: I'm not convinced we must have that dependency on Web Storage
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... apparently Opera thinks otherwise
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MC: yes, that's true
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Topic: Widget URIs
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AB: we decided not to include this spec on this week's agenda for a couple of reasons:
17:39:27 [Benoit]
http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-uri/
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... 1. the LC comment period doesn't end until Nov 10
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... 2. the Editor, Robin Berjon, is Chairing the DAP WG meeting on Nov 2-3
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... 3. We discused this during our Oct 29 weekly call and Robin stated he would look for Larry this week
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Present+ Larry
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LM: does anyone have any comments
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AB: this is a great idea
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... I'm expect more comments and wanted to queue them up to take them all at once
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LM: my comments aren't from the TAG
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... want to know if it meets the guidelines for a new scheme
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MC: I share some of your concernts
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s/concernts/concerns/
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AB: I'm OK with talking about it but it's highly likely the conversation will need to be replayed when Robin is available
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... I too am concerned about whether or not we've reached the threshold where a new scheme is needed
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LM: there is no scheme that works as is
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... I don't think the new scheme issue is so great
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... although for some TAG members it is
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... need to think about authority
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... there are some things like authority that must be tightened
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... that leads to security issues
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MC: we have ZIP relative paths
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LM: need to look at it from the view of is it really going to work
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RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-wam-minutes.html ArtB
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MC: we don't control the ZIP spec
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... we do try to clarify it
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LM: can profile it
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... W3C doesn't have to support every feature of ZIP
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... ease of impl should not take priority over interoperability
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MC: the P+C spec defines the Zip relative path
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LM: who is the audience for the URI scheme?
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MC: supposed to be private to the widget instance
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LM: so then, why do you need it?
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MC: one reason is because we don't want people to use file:
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LM: that's not a good reason
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... if you have real interop problem that's one thing
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Present+ Josh
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Topic: Packaging and Configuration Spec
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AB: MC and MH have been debating valid Zip relative path for some time now
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... want to get consensus here if there is an issue or not
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... we should not publish LCs if we have open issues
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MC: let's look at the e-mail ...
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AB: here's the last email from MH: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009OctDec/0305.html
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MC: I don't think there is an issue
18:12:55 [Marcos]
http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#rule-for-identifying-the-media-type-of-a
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[ We look at section 9.1.10 of LC#3 ]
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JS: please make sure the Examples use the same amount of indentation
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example: .topos.db is a SQLite format 3 binary file
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.knips.xml
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but ... those should be .db and .xml
18:20:28 [Marcos]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009OctDec/0299.html
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JS: not sure basename is a good tool to use here
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... in terms of helping us understand what the spec should say
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in test/.jpg => "test/" is a directory path
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basename's job is to by default strip out directory components from a path to a file
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yielding simply the filename portion of the path
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MC: perhaps we should have sent everything to sniff and not do the optimizations
18:24:22 [marcin2]
is it ok to come now?
18:24:25 [timeless_mbp]
yes
18:24:27 [ArtB]
... we added this as a request from Mozilla
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the second argument to basename is for telling basename what extra thing to strip from the filename
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AB: was that Henri?
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MC: yes Henri and perhaps Jonas too
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MC: I think the algorithm we defined is OK
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... we've gone thru the cases
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MC: are you OK with this JS?
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JS: yes, it seems OK
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Present+ Marcin
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MH: I'm OK with dot something is a file
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... think the Proc Model needs to be changed
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... we don't need ranges
18:28:13 [timeless_mbp]
If any character in the extension is outside the U+0041-U+005A range and the U+0061-U+007A range, then go to step 10 in this algorithm.
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For example, if the extension is ".pñg", the go to step 10 in this algorithm.
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10 = #
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Let content-type be the result of processing file through the [SNIFF] specification.
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11 = # Return the value of content-type.
18:30:09 [timeless_mbp]
note that the current specification ended up w/ bullets instead of numbers which caused us problems :(
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MH: we don't need the ranges
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MC: why not?
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MH: won't be able to create test cases for this
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MC: yeah, I guess that's true
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... it is an optimazation so it could be removed
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s/optimazation/optimization/
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MH: can case-insensitively match
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MC: yes, can do it that way
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... yes, I guess this can be viewed as over-specified
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... I don't see any harm
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... that is no harm, in keeping it
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MH: but we don't need it
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AB: we will need to think about its affect on the impl
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AB: can you MC live with removing it?
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... I would prefer to err on the side of simplicity i.e. to remove it
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MC: if we remove it, it will not affect implementations because it is an optimization
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JS: in fact we are defining case-insensitive
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MC: this algorithm is just to match the table of ~10 extensions
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MH: sniff has another table for extensions
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... we typically have UTF-8
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JS: case insensitive is not well-defined
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... should clarify why the A, B, C and examples are in the spec
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MH: is case sensitive defined in Unicode
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http://unicode.org/reports/tr10/
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MC: its complex; see Unicode Collision Alg
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AB: so we are now saying the text will remain but clarified i.e. why those sub-steps are there?
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MC: yes
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MH: can you live with that?
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s/MH: can you/AB: MH, can you/
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MH: yes, if the text is clarified
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AB: MC, what have you changed?
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MC: I changed the Example between A. and B.
18:42:07 [timeless_mbp]
This would probably be implemented by scanning the filename from right to left searching for non-ascii or <ascii-period>. at the first instance of non-ascii, bail
18:42:25 [Marcos]
The above step is precisely here to handle case comparison for file extensions such as ".pñg".
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AB: if we get consensus on this issue, I want to record a Resolution
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AB: any objections to the text MC proposes above?
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JS: need to be careful where it is inserted
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AB: any objections?
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[ None ]
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RESOLUTION: the text MC proposes above addresses the issue MH had re the extension algorithm
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RRSAgent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-wam-minutes.html ArtB
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