IRC log of eo on 2009-11-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:35:46 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-irc
16:58:06 [shawn]
shawn has changed the topic to: if you want us to join the teleconference bridge, type andrew and shadi to get their attention to call in
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17:08:15 [suzette]
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17:08:23 [suzette]
hello
17:12:09 [andrew]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2009/11f2f
17:14:06 [hbj]
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17:15:21 [Sharron]
Shawn: Provides background and explains intent of the document, how it expands on involving users in evaluation to involving users with disabilities in the entire web development process.
17:16:17 [Sharron]
3.1Description of Services and Deliverables
17:16:17 [Sharron]
Vendors must provide a narrative statement of work describing services, knowledge and relevant experience, and approach for providing deliverables outlined in section 2.0 above. Vendors must confirm that they will perform the accessibility testing and document their findings using the Massachusetts Technology Accessibility Validation and Reporting Instrument and the Accessibility Compliance Validation Summary Report template found on the “Forms and Terms” tab in
17:16:17 [Sharron]
The Knowbility team, led by accessibility author and expert Sharron Rush, will take the following steps to meet the requirements of this project:
17:16:20 [Sharron]
1. Discovery/Review: Sharron Rush will confer with the Stellar Corporation development team to understand all development tools, techniques and processes and to understand the various user tasks and outputs that the application is expected to provide. She will ask for any data sets that may be needed to implement effective auto-testing. This will ensure an appropriate and comprehensive testing environment.
17:16:24 [Sharron]
2.Assignment of tasks: Once an understanding of tasks and technology is established, Ms. Rush will finalize the testing protocols according to the Massachusetts Technology Accessibility Validation and Reporting Instrument and the Accessibility Compliance Validation Summary Report template. She will assign specific assessment tasks to the team which, depending on the results of the discovery process, may include herself, Jim Thatcher and/or Derek Featherstone.
17:16:31 [Sharron]
3. Reporting: Knowbility reports include screen by screen assessment, a pass/fail status for each of the Massachusetts ITD Enterprise Web Accessibility Standards, and recommendations for how to repair the application if it does not currently pass any specific one of the standards. Remediation recommendations are provided to the code level and can then be integrated into the application by the Stellar development team. In addition, the report will include resul
17:16:36 [Sharron]
4.Delivery: Knowbility prefers to deliver the report in a Question and Answer type meeting. Our team will present our findings, identifying any common barriers that were found and offering remediation techniques. We will answer any questions you may have and work with your team toward full understanding and problem solving.
17:16:40 [Sharron]
5.Retesting: If accessibility barriers are discovered and the Stellar team implements remediation techniques, Knowbility will re-test and confirm compliance at no additional charge.
17:17:22 [Sharron]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/involving/
17:17:49 [Sharron]
Shawn: Look at overview and specifc wording issues, titles
17:24:27 [Sharron]
Action: Including Users - fix title
17:27:37 [Sharron]
Discussion of audience, is document broad enough to appeal to identified group?
17:30:24 [Sharron]
Action: Including Users - take editorial pass at broadening language to inlcude developers of applications, browsers etc. Then another pass to ensure that it message was not diluted
17:31:05 [shawn]
ACTION: Including Users - take an edit pass to make sure it applies to tool developers, stds developers, etc. - then make sure it's not watered down or for the website developer. if leave -- probably then put something clear up fron that this applies to these otehrs
17:33:35 [Sharron]
Suzette: introduces discussion of formative vs summative methods.
17:34:43 [shawn]
shadi: Efficieny, effective ness, motivation not say clearly "understanding"
17:35:39 [Sharron]
Helle: various perspectives should be considered even before story boarding, in procurement process.
17:36:15 [Sharron]
...even part of setting up business case, compliance requirements
17:36:22 [shawn]
qustion: is this when to involve considerations for accessibility, or, including real, live users in the process
17:37:19 [Sharron]
Shawn: Is document about including considerations or including real live users?
17:39:39 [Sharron]
Andrew: Some consideration of the needs of PWD in general is needed before user testing will be effective.
17:41:27 [Sharron]
Action: Including Users - Clarify in scope that focus is real live users but point to references that say more about geenral consideration of accessibility earlier.
17:42:37 [shawn]
zakim, dial ponderosa
17:42:37 [Zakim]
sorry, shawn, I don't know what conference this is
17:42:44 [shawn]
zakim, this is eowg
17:42:44 [Zakim]
shawn, I see WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be eowg".
17:42:54 [shawn]
zakim, will be eowg
17:42:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'will be eowg', shawn
17:42:59 [shawn]
zakim, this will be eowg
17:42:59 [Zakim]
ok, shawn; I see WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM scheduled to start 163 minutes ago
17:43:06 [shawn]
zakim, dial ponderosa
17:43:06 [Zakim]
ok, shawn; the call is being made
17:43:07 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
17:43:08 [Zakim]
+Ponderosa
17:43:38 [Zakim]
-Ponderosa
17:43:40 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
17:43:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ponderosa
17:44:14 [shadi]
zakim, drop ponderosa
17:44:14 [Zakim]
sorry, shadi, I don't know what conference this is
17:45:38 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
17:45:45 [Zakim]
+Shawn_Henry
17:45:48 [Zakim]
-Shawn_Henry
17:45:49 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
17:45:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shawn_Henry
17:46:44 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
17:46:50 [Zakim]
+doyle
17:48:20 [shawn]
zakim, dial Ponderosa
17:48:20 [Zakim]
ok, shawn; the call is being made
17:48:21 [Zakim]
+Ponderosa
17:49:24 [shadi]
zakim, drop ponderosa
17:49:25 [Zakim]
Ponderosa is being disconnected
17:49:25 [Zakim]
-Ponderosa
17:49:41 [shadi]
zakim, call sierra
17:49:41 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; the call is being made
17:49:43 [Zakim]
+Sierra
17:50:22 [shadi]
zakim, drop sierra
17:50:22 [Zakim]
Sierra is being disconnected
17:50:23 [Zakim]
-Sierra
17:50:54 [Zakim]
-doyle
17:50:56 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
17:50:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were doyle, Ponderosa, Sierra
17:53:16 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
17:53:23 [Zakim]
+ +34.62.717.aaaa
17:56:03 [Zakim]
+Sharron
17:56:06 [Zakim]
- +34.62.717.aaaa
17:56:08 [Zakim]
+ +34.62.717.aaaa
17:59:29 [Zakim]
-Sharron
17:59:56 [Zakim]
- +34.62.717.aaaa
17:59:57 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
17:59:58 [Zakim]
Attendees were +34.62.717.aaaa, Sharron
18:00:41 [Sharron]
Jennifer: Numbred defintitions could perhaps address the need for glossary defintitions to be different depending on audience.
18:04:48 [Sharron]
Shadi: Could reduce definitions to one - user characteristics.
18:05:54 [shawn]
from users' perspective, better to have on this page?
18:08:51 [Sharron]
Shadi: Can you find a generalized definition that will satisfy all situations?
18:09:35 [shawn]
idea: WAI glossary becomes the user friendly version, then points to def in WCAg or recent std
18:15:42 [shawn]
q+ already pointing to
18:20:28 [andrew]
more definitions exist in http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/#tools
18:22:36 [shawn]
ack me
18:22:46 [Sharron]
Shawn: Suggestion now on the table is to make the WAI glossary the user friendly version rather than the defintive formal version, then pull defintitions as needed into printed pages or onscreen display.
18:23:24 [Sharron]
...add adaptive strategies, web content, assistive technology, user characterisitics.
18:24:13 [Sharron]
Shadi: Formal definition would be WCAG and WAI would link to that or other recent fromal definittions
18:25:55 [shawn]
action: authorized translation policy - look at not saying have to translation "WAI Glossary" first
18:27:58 [shawn]
action: shawn - when glossary done, look at changing pointers to definitions in Involving Users to the glossary
18:31:03 [Sharron]
Shawn: Group ready for section by section review? When we come back from break, will do that.
18:43:11 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
18:43:12 [Zakim]
+Shawn_Henry
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-Shawn_Henry
18:52:33 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
18:52:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shawn_Henry
18:52:54 [andrew]
zakim, call Ponderosa
18:52:54 [Zakim]
ok, andrew; the call is being made
18:52:55 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
18:52:56 [Zakim]
+Ponderosa
18:53:33 [andrew]
zakim, drop Ponderosa
18:53:33 [Zakim]
Ponderosa is being disconnected
18:53:35 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
18:53:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ponderosa
18:54:21 [ted]
ted has joined #eo
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WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
18:55:05 [Zakim]
+Shawn_Henry
18:56:14 [Zakim]
+Jack
18:56:41 [Zakim]
+Ponderosa
18:56:51 [Zakim]
-Shawn_Henry
18:58:30 [shawn]
worky
18:58:34 [shawn]
thanks Ted!
18:58:39 [Zakim]
-Jack
18:58:43 [ted]
ted has left #eo
18:59:09 [Zakim]
+Jack
18:59:37 [Zakim]
-Jack
19:01:42 [jenoe]
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19:04:33 [Sharron]
Action: Including Users - start with Paragraph 2
19:05:52 [Sharron]
Action: Including users - consider following with a list of applications, browsers, software, etc
19:08:15 [Sharron]
Action: Including Users - delelete negative conotation of "However, most developers..."
19:09:12 [Sharron]
Suzette: Need somewhere to emphasize develop of relationships, etc
19:09:23 [shawn]
q+ to revisit accomodation
19:09:34 [shawn]
q+ to revisit ethics (in Involvoing users)
19:14:07 [Sharron]
Action: remove (or change) example 2 in How Involving Users Early Helps
19:16:16 [shawn]
positive examples
19:17:09 [shawn]
case studies to support "involving Users Early hepls"
19:29:07 [shawn]
"How Involving Users Early Helps" - maybe <h3>s for Helps Developers Makes More (Usable) Accessible for pwds
19:29:34 [shawn]
(efficiency, effectiveness, motivation triggers usability terminology - not good)
19:29:54 [shawn]
maybe heading or at least focus is UNDERSTANDING
19:35:49 [Sharron]
Action: Change heading titles to something like "benefits to developers" and "Benefits to end users"
19:35:52 [shadi]
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19:37:03 [Sharron]
Action: Including Users - after rewrite, consider update to examples
19:38:36 [Sharron]
Action: Including Users - consider benefits to owner as well as developer and user
19:39:29 [Sharron]
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19:45:05 [glaser]
andrew
19:47:18 [Sharron]
Action: Including Users - change "Combine Users with Standards" to some thing like "How this relates to standards"
19:47:55 [shawn]
s/Including Users - change "Combine Users with Standards" to some thing like "How this relates to standards"/Including Users - change "Combine Users with Standards" to some thing like "How this relates to standards" - maybe leave Combine , e.b., Combine User Involvement.../
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19:55:31 [Sharron]
we wave back
19:55:49 [shawn]
telecon is working. we'll be online for about 20 mins give ro take - the breaking for lucnh...
20:07:57 [Zakim]
+cmsmcq
20:08:14 [jenoe]
zakim. cmsmcq is michael
20:08:36 [jenoe]
zakim, cmsmcq is michael
20:08:36 [Zakim]
+michael; got it
20:12:13 [jenoe]
zakim, mute me
20:12:13 [Zakim]
sorry, jenoe, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
20:12:43 [jenoe]
zakim, mute Michael
20:12:43 [Zakim]
michael should now be muted
20:17:44 [Zakim]
-michael
20:17:50 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
20:17:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shawn_Henry, Jack, Ponderosa, michael
20:20:14 [shawn]
shawn has changed the topic to: Will resume teleconference around 1:00 US Pacific time
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21:18:48 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
21:18:57 [Zakim]
+ +34.62.717.aaaa
21:19:47 [Zakim]
- +34.62.717.aaaa
21:19:48 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
21:19:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were +34.62.717.aaaa
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shadi has joined #eo
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21:33:52 [shawn-lunch]
zakim, dial Ponderosa
21:33:52 [Zakim]
ok, shawn-lunch; the call is being made
21:33:53 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has now started
21:33:55 [Zakim]
+Ponderosa
21:34:11 [shawn-lunch]
zakim, who is here?
21:34:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ponderosa
21:34:12 [Zakim]
On IRC I see shawn-lunch, shadi, Sharron, jenoe, hbj, Jack, andrew, RRSAgent, Zakim
21:36:09 [Zakim]
+ +34.62.717.aaaa
21:36:11 [Zakim]
-Ponderosa
21:36:12 [Zakim]
+Ponderosa
21:36:46 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is really William
21:36:46 [Zakim]
+William; got it
21:38:08 [suzette]
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21:38:59 [Zakim]
+michael
21:39:58 [shawn]
we're here: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/involving/#diverse
21:40:01 [andrew]
zakim, jenoe is really Michael
21:40:01 [Zakim]
sorry, andrew, I do not recognize a party named 'jenoe'
21:40:59 [jenoe]
zakim, mute michael
21:40:59 [Zakim]
michael should now be muted
21:41:01 [glaser]
glaser has joined #eo
21:47:41 [shawn]
q+ to look at open issues list
21:50:28 [jenoe]
zakim, umute me
21:50:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'umute me', jenoe
21:50:38 [jenoe]
zakim, umute michael
21:50:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'umute michael', jenoe
21:50:49 [jenoe]
zakim, unmute michael
21:50:49 [Zakim]
michael should no longer be muted
21:52:27 [jenoe]
zakim, mute michael
21:52:27 [Zakim]
michael should now be muted
21:58:13 [shawn]
jennifer: also, don't want to make it look to hard, have to fgo the ir house etc.
21:58:43 [andrew]
Andrew: interacting with PWD and older people - their place may be better; AT setup; 2 older people might be better than one - maybe link to another resource where this info exists
21:58:46 [shawn]
q+ to say can we delete anything
22:00:45 [andrew]
goodnight michael - might se you tomorrow?
22:01:14 [jenoe]
maybe in the early mornin
22:01:18 [jenoe]
maybe in the early morning
22:01:58 [Zakim]
-michael
22:03:31 [Sharron]
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22:08:23 [shawn]
put things in one doc and popint to it in the other
22:10:19 [shawn]
ACTION: Involving Users - you can do a lot yourself, but sometimes you might need to bring in help
22:11:41 [suzette]
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22:12:08 [jenoe]
jenoe has left #eo
22:13:09 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
22:13:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ponderosa, William
22:13:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see suzette, glaser, shawn, shadi, hbj, Jack, andrew, RRSAgent, Zakim
22:13:13 [Zakim]
-William
22:13:14 [shawn]
zakim, drop william
22:13:14 [Zakim]
sorry, shawn, I do not see a party named 'william'
22:16:13 [hbj]
hbj has joined #eo
22:16:36 [shawn]
ACTION: Involving Usres - moVe "analyzing Accessibility Issues" from one doc to to other (to eval one)
22:19:20 [shawn]
ack shawn
22:19:20 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to look at open issues list and to say can we delete anything
22:20:32 [shawn]
accomodation - think have covered
22:21:39 [Sharron]
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22:22:59 [shawn]
ethics - e.g., can withdrawl
22:24:49 [Sharron]
Action: Suzette to draft brief statement about ethics
22:25:25 [Sharron]
Action: Involving Users - draft pointers for ethics
22:26:20 [andrew]
action: involving - andrew to research some pointers on ethics and working with users (to be used with Suzette's #17)
22:34:37 [andrew]
diverse abilities
22:35:45 [andrew]
special requirements
22:38:54 [Sharron]
Action: Move to the front the fact that including people with disabilities (and older users) gets you usability for free.
22:47:18 [andrew]
rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
22:48:24 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/involving/new-users-eval
23:18:58 [shawn]
check for big things an dfix em first
23:20:59 [shawn]
action: Involving Users Eval - chagen "Preliminary Review" to more csual and include repair big, obvious things (also, refine what to have pwds focus on)
23:23:16 [shawn]
action: Involving Users Eval - change "Preliminary Review" section - maybe say someting about it helps to focus your efforts with users
23:23:58 [shawn]
planning
23:24:39 [Sharron]
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23:36:38 [glaser]
glaser has joined #eo
23:38:16 [andrew]
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00:05:44 [shawn]
action: Involving Users Eval - check what would be involved in broadening it to tools, etc. - if not too much work [maybe as an adidional note] [and, look at how its done in compantion doc]
00:09:33 [Sharron]
Action: Caution should be repeated in both documents. Harmonizes with "get usability for free"
00:13:26 [Sharron]
Action: Involving Users Eval - look at putting together accessibility issues and drawing conclusions and separating out reporting.
00:14:11 [Sharron]
Shadi: Not to draw hasty conclusions.
00:14:54 [Sharron]
Shawn: caution against testing with one disability groups and extrapolating to all users with disabilities.
00:16:24 [Sharron]
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00:18:46 [andrew]
suzette: not to over extrapolate from the results in front of you
00:19:25 [andrew]
andrew: you have observations, not statistically significant tests
00:21:38 [shawn]
primary audience would take the results and enter it in the changelog
00:27:20 [Sharron]
Action: Involving Users Eval - Move reporting within "prefessionals" section and perhaps editing.
00:28:11 [andrew]
rrsagent, make logs world
00:28:42 [Sharron]
Shawn: Want to look at titles and references of both documents.
00:36:23 [Sharron]
Suggestion
00:37:16 [Sharron]
Suzette - Involving Users in Web Development - [Achieving] Better Easier Accessibility
00:37:49 [shawn]
Involving Users in Web Design and Development for Better Easier Accessibility
00:38:02 [shawn]
Involving Users in Web Design and Development for Better, Easier Accessibility
00:39:24 [shawn]
Involving Users in Web Accessibility Evaluation
00:40:58 [shawn]
Involving Users in Evaluating Web Accessibility
00:45:23 [andrew]
suzette: ... to improve accessibility
00:45:59 [shawn]
note - title - we really want to get reluctant readers to read this - thus "better & easier"
00:54:03 [shawn]
ACTION: Shawn & Andrew research other good references for Invovling Users
01:01:55 [andrew]
rrsagent, make minutes
01:01:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html andrew
01:15:51 [shawn]
NEW TOPIC "Improving Your Web Experience with Adaptive Strategies "
01:16:08 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/adaptive/strategies.html
01:23:40 [Sharron]
Andrew: seeing where to click, focus on pages
01:24:25 [andrew]
action: Enjoyable - mouse use - seeing where to click (ref back to enlarging links, form elements, etc)
01:24:54 [shawn]
"things your granny can do" versus things she'll need help with
01:25:22 [Sharron]
Suzette: felt a need for a rating scale to indicate those things that users may be able to do for themselves and those things for which they are likely to need help.
01:27:07 [Sharron]
Action: Andrew research effort on changing DPI setting
01:27:24 [andrew]
suzette: dpi settings can make a difference, in addition to screen resolution
01:31:18 [shawn]
manybe"descrease the resolution of your display" ->"descrease the resolution/dpi of your display
01:32:08 [shawn]
"change the resolution/dpi of your display"
01:32:41 [shadi]
action: shadi to check on wording for resoulution versus DPI settings
01:35:17 [andrew]
action: Enjoyable - capture that resoluton is affected by three changes under windows - resolution, DPI, accessibility
01:37:19 [shawn]
jack; tell them how to do the easy things
01:37:29 [shawn]
then point to the harder things
01:38:21 [shawn]
q+ to ask about including the common
01:41:38 [suzette]
http://accessibar.mozdev.org/ is tool bar to adjust colours , fonts etc
01:41:42 [andrew]
action: Enjoyable - introduction - some solutions/steps may need advanced techniques
01:42:00 [shawn]
jennifer: "hardware & software" works - "tool" not so much
01:45:00 [andrew]
action: Enjoyable - consider marking some techniues and/or refs as medium/advnaced level of difficulty
01:48:00 [Sharron]
Sharron has left #eo
01:53:56 [andrew]
andrew: consider training as an option under 'explore your computer system'
02:05:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Ponderosa, in WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM
02:05:07 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG(TPAC)10:00AM has ended
02:05:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ponderosa, +34.62.717.aaaa, William, michael
02:15:32 [andrew]
andrew has joined #eo
02:15:55 [andrew]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:15:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/02-eo-minutes.html andrew