14:29:37 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:29:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc 14:29:56 zakim, this will be rdfa 14:29:56 ok, manu; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes 14:30:04 Scribe: Manu Sporny 14:30:11 ScribeNick: manu 14:30:20 Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force 14:30:27 Chair: Ben Adida 14:30:41 Present: Manu_Sporny, Ben_Adida, Shane_McCarron 14:31:08 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Oct/0075.html 14:31:24 Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html 14:53:34 rrsagent, make log public 14:53:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:53:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html manu 14:54:33 Regrets: Steven_Pemberton, Mark_Birbeck, Ivan_Herman 14:56:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:56:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html manu 14:57:46 ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:59:27 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 14:59:34 +McCarron 15:01:54 zakim, McCarron is ShaneM 15:01:54 +ShaneM; got it 15:02:23 zakim, code? 15:02:25 the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), manu 15:03:13 +David 15:03:22 zakim, I am David 15:03:23 ok, manu, I now associate you with David 15:04:53 zakim, David is Manu 15:05:02 +Manu; got it 15:05:21 benadida has joined #rdfa 15:05:40 +Ben_Adida 15:07:45 Topic: Action Items 15:07:56 http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary 15:08:39 ACTION: Ben to finish authoring RDFa WG charter. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] 15:08:46 -- continues 15:08:53 Ben: Updated it a bit 15:09:01 Manu: I also fixed some very small issues 15:09:21 Manu: Ivan had an issue with mentioning the Microsoft extensibility proposal. 15:09:33 Ben: We're interested in supporting that language extension proposal. 15:10:49 --> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter 15:11:47 (side-bar Google Chrome discussion) Everybody seems to love it. 15:12:14 Ben: Manu has been asked to co-chair RDFa WG. 15:12:24 Ben: We have 12 months to do the work and 6 months of slack. 15:12:35 Ben: It does assume that it is going to take RDFa 1.1 to REC. 15:13:20 Manu: Sent it off for review by HTML WG chairs. 15:15:16 ACTION: Ivan to talk with Peter Mika at ISWC2009 about RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] 15:15:18 -- done 15:15:54 ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] 15:16:05 -- continue 15:18:28 ACTION: Shane to look at XML spec and see if xml: is illegal in RDF/XML re: TC 142 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] 15:18:37 -- continues 15:19:02 ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] 15:19:13 --> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript 15:20:53 Ben: Is this test good? 15:21:12 Shane: Opera isn't the special case, Opera is the one that works correctly. 15:21:35 Shane: It seems as if this works for all cases. 15:21:54 -- done 15:22:44 ACTION: Manu speak with Andy Seaborne about SPARQL.org implementation re: c14n [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] 15:22:48 -- continues 15:23:02 Manu: Jeremy thinks it is a bug in sparql.org 15:23:18 Manu: Andy seems to think it is, but hasn't responded yet (I just e-mailed him last night) 15:23:24 ACTION: Shane to re-draft XMLLiteral errata text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] 15:23:40 -- continues 15:24:26 Topic: RDFa WG Charter 15:24:32 Ben: Any additions/changes? 15:30:39 Manu: We might want to put a validator as a work item for the RDFa WG. 15:33:15 Manu: We might also want to produce an Javascript-based live editor for RDFa. 15:34:12 Shane: We might also want to look at XMLSPEC - W3C recs could be semantically rich. 15:35:21 Manu: We would probably want to say that we'd work with SVG WG and ODF standards body on integrating RDFa 15:35:35 Manu: We should create a test suite for SVG. 15:35:46 Shane: There are people that continue to need modularization. 15:36:39 Shane: Maybe RDFa WG could work on modularization - it's specific to W3C. RDFa depends on modularization now. 15:37:14 Manu: We might want to discuss this with the people at Microsoft that are working on decentralized extensibility. 15:41:27 ACTION: Manu to kick some butt on mailing list re: test cases 15:41:43 Topic: Test Cases 15:42:38 Manu: I'll try to drive the discussion via the mailing list and keep pressing people to review them. 15:43:04 Shane: We may want to take a deadline approach - no comments means the TC is approved. 15:43:16 Topic: RDFa 1.1 issues 15:43:41 Ben: Where do we stand on these RDFa 1.1 issues 15:44:28 Manu: My preference is to work on these in this order: @profile, DOM API, URIs everywhere, @typeof 15:44:30 zakim, I am McCarron 15:44:30 sorry, ShaneM, I do not see a party named 'McCarron' 15:45:25 Ben: Shane, what do you think should happen when @typeof is empty based on what the spec says? 15:45:57 Shane: The presence of @typeof should trigger a bnode to be created. 15:46:12 Ben: Maybe this already happens, maybe our test cases don't test this. 15:47:30 Ben: This issue may already be resolved. 15:47:38 check http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014-errata/ 15:47:53 Ben: Manu, you're not against typeof="", right? 15:48:00 Manu: Correct, just not a high priority for me. 15:48:20 Manu: typeof="[]" 15:48:25 Manu: typeof="foobar"? 15:48:41 Manu: What does that do? It creates a bnode still? 15:48:47 Ben: Yes, except we can't set the type. 15:49:20 Ben: We think the processing rules and the errata already say this - it would be worth clarifying step 4 in the processing rules. 15:49:33 PARTIAL CONSENSUS (because we're 3 on the call): @typeof presence already creates bnode, as per spec and errata. Step #4 could use some clarification to prevent confusion. 15:50:06 Ben: URIs everywhere - how can we support rel="http://example.org/vocab#term" ? 15:50:17 Ben: That's the goal, let's not talk about the mechanism. 15:50:23 Manu: I'm fine with that goal. 15:50:35 Shane: Fine with the goal, not a high priority for me. 15:50:45 Ben: Don't feel very strongly about this, not going to make/break anything. 15:52:13 Ben: If we find a good way to do it, then great. 15:52:35 Ben: We know some RDFa community members and WHATWG community members care deeply about this. 15:52:37 PARTIAL CONSENSUS: we note that some community members care deeply about this. The three of us are not strongly opposed, but it is not a high priority to resolve. 15:52:51 Manu: Fine with that. 15:53:05 Shane: Fine. 15:53:30 Ben: DOM API - I'm not opposed, unless it's done in a pure RDF way. 15:53:40 Ben: I think that would be a strong negative. 15:54:25 Manu: The other point to make is that we might want to start with something very specific and let jQuery plugins aggregate RDFa/Microformats/Microdata APIs into an uber data API 15:54:50 Shane: We've told the browser folks that we don't need browser support for a very long time. 15:54:57 Shane: Now we roll out a DOM API. 15:55:30 Shane: We don't need them to implement the API - we might get pushback from the browser manufacturers. 15:55:37 Ben: Yes, it is a valid concern. 15:56:13 Ben: Most concerned about the interplay between the @vocab discussion and the DOM API support. 15:57:01 Ben: We're basically saying that RDFa 1.1 might require browser vendors to retrieve vocabulary documents. 15:57:16 Ben: Pain lies in the intersection between @vocab and DOM API. 16:01:24 Manu: We can take the JSON approach (as Sam Ruby and Doug Schepers outlined a month ago)... implement in jquery/javascript first... speed it up with native implementations later. 16:01:31 Ben: Yes, I do think that may be the right approach. 16:01:48 Ben: Direction for DOM API should be a jQuery plugin. 16:02:13 Shane: We should use the DOM hasFeature mechanism. 16:02:56 Ben: Don't know if Jeni's plugin does this - but it would be nice to trace a triple back to the DOM node element that generated it. 16:03:06 Ben: Bi-directional visual data correspondence. 16:03:22 Shane: Don't think that Mark's concept does that. 16:03:38 Ben: Triple stores have origins - we might be able to hack it to make it an xpath into a document. 16:04:07 Shane: Provenence - XPATH expression into a URI using a hash. 16:04:15 Shane: Mark's worked on that... Document API 16:05:31 Ben: Shane - regarding @vocab - I might be convinced about Mark's approach. Don't know if my approach is taking hold with anybody - I think we need to make life easier for authors, as Manu has been evangelizing for some time. 16:05:47 Ben: The big problem is the requirement for dereferencing.... 16:06:50 Ben: Wondering if the parser should generate some sort of intermediate format? 16:06:58 Shane: Isn't the intermediate format the CURIE? 16:07:32 Shane: In the @profile proposal, you can define new keywords and remote mappings. 16:07:47 Ben: Yes, the remote mappings thing is something I would have an issue with... 16:08:09 Ben: A @vocab proposal where the only thing you're doing is adding a source of unprefixed keywords. 16:08:20 Ben: The goal of author ease-of-use is to remove the prefixes entirely. 16:08:55 Ben: If you're asking the author to understand that there are different vocabularies, I don't think you're making it transparent anymore. 16:09:14 Ben: For example, adding foaf:name and dc:title into the same vocabulary - that's not easier. 16:09:55 Shane: link rel="vocab" ... would override the words that are not core reserved words. 16:10:02 Shane: Is that correct? 16:10:06 Ben: yes, more or less. 16:10:37 Ben: I'm making the point that you shouldn't pull in prefix definitions... but it would be a reserved words only approach. 16:10:47 Ben: Indirection for definition of prefixes seems wrong to me. 16:11:09 Shane: Need to think about it. 16:11:25 -ShaneM 16:11:28 -Manu 16:11:29 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:11:30 Attendees were ShaneM, Manu, Ben_Adida 16:11:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:11:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html manu 16:13:38 zakim, bye 16:13:38 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:20:06 rrsagent, bye 16:20:06 I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:20:06 ACTION: Ben to finish authoring RDFa WG charter. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [1] 16:20:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-08-39 16:20:06 ACTION: Ivan to talk with Peter Mika at ISWC2009 about RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [2] 16:20:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-15-16 16:20:06 ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in RDFa WG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [3] 16:20:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-15-54 16:20:06 ACTION: Shane to look at XML spec and see if xml: is illegal in RDF/XML re: TC 142 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [4] 16:20:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-18-28 16:20:06 ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [5] 16:20:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-19-02 16:20:06 ACTION: Manu speak with Andy Seaborne about SPARQL.org implementation re: c14n [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [6] 16:20:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-22-44 16:20:06 ACTION: Shane to re-draft XMLLiteral errata text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [7] 16:20:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-23-24 16:20:06 ACTION: Manu to kick some butt on mailing list re: test cases [8] 16:20:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-irc#T15-41-27