IRC log of webapps on 2009-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:00:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webapps
18:00:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc
18:01:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:01:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #webapps
18:01:03 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAPP
18:01:03 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:01:04 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:01:04 [trackbot]
Date: 28 October 2009
18:01:17 [shepazu]
Zakim, this will be DOM3
18:01:18 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu, I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM already started
18:01:24 [shepazu]
Zakim, call shepazu
18:01:24 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; the call is being made
18:01:26 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
18:02:28 [Zakim]
+yngve
18:02:50 [smaug]
yngve?
18:02:58 [Zakim]
-yngve
18:03:24 [Zakim]
+??P1
18:03:36 [smaug]
Zakim ??P1 is me
18:03:44 [smaug]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
18:03:44 [Zakim]
+smaug; got it
18:04:45 [Travis]
scribe: Travis
18:04:53 [Travis]
scribeNick: Travis
18:05:14 [smaug]
khiitola: ping
18:05:29 [Travis]
shepazu: Who's going to TPAC?
18:05:33 [Travis]
I am.
18:05:37 [Travis]
smaug: No.
18:05:39 [khiitola]
smaug: pong.
18:05:53 [smaug]
khiitola: the telco is now, if you want to join
18:06:11 [Travis]
shepazu: mmm.
18:06:21 [khiitola]
Thanks. Trying to decipher what's happening here. (sorry, I'm a newbie)
18:06:56 [shepazu]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009OctDec/0078.html
18:07:04 [shepazu]
Zakim, code?
18:07:04 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3663 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
18:07:33 [Zakim]
+ +358.407.37aaaa
18:07:59 [shepazu]
Zakim, 37aaaa is khiitola
18:07:59 [Zakim]
sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named '37aaaa'
18:08:16 [shepazu]
Zakim, +358 is khiitola
18:08:16 [Zakim]
+khiitola; got it
18:11:43 [Travis]
khiitola: Here to talk about touch/gesture at your convenience
18:12:06 [Travis]
shepazu: I've thought about putting touch/gesture into DOM L4 events.
18:12:28 [Travis]
... but have been advised to put it into its own spec.
18:12:52 [Travis]
... many companies have IP in this area and could be a minefeild.
18:13:28 [Travis]
... We're still not done with Dom L3 Events, so want to keep focus there.
18:15:05 [Travis]
... Folks are free to discuss on the list, but may not get much traction.
18:15:14 [Travis]
... khiitola does this fit your timeframe?
18:15:30 [Travis]
khiitola: Would love something sooner, but willing to live with the group's decision.
18:15:49 [Travis]
shepazu: Naturally, I'm don't have to be the editor...
18:15:59 [Travis]
khiitola: I vote for smaug
18:16:24 [Travis]
smaug: Hmm. very funny.
18:16:37 [Travis]
shepazu: Also very busy...
18:25:06 [Travis]
shepazu: Let's hit the agenda, and then come back to Touch stuff.
18:25:18 [shepazu]
Topic: DOM3 Events in VoiceXML
18:25:58 [Travis]
shepazu: Spoke with International folks and VoicXML team recently.
18:26:32 [Travis]
... "Visual browser" preferred in that Working group ;-)
18:27:02 [Travis]
... They are using DOM L3 Events in an unorthedox way.
18:27:38 [Travis]
... May be able converge XML+V into D3E.
18:27:50 [Travis]
... Here's how they use D3E:
18:28:56 [Travis]
... No script (all declarative). For a document, the capture phase is used to determine a catch handler.
18:29:59 [Travis]
... Any catch handler (on a proximal event target) gets accumulated.
18:30:26 [Travis]
... Very similar to how a UA registered event handlers in the markup during parsing.
18:31:01 [Travis]
... Subtle differences: Only one handler will get invoked (not all possible handlers).
18:32:22 [Travis]
... Their algorithm selects the most appropriate event given current context.
18:33:11 [Travis]
... They asked whether it's reasonable to use D3E for their technique.
18:33:22 [Travis]
... Jury's still out.
18:34:40 [Travis]
smaug: MS has SALT... similar to XML+V -- and more similar to what visual browsers do.
18:34:56 [Travis]
shepazu: What if there was a SALT-like profile?
18:35:56 [Travis]
smaug: Opera has some support for XML+V (or used to?)
18:36:17 [Travis]
... Not sure how the visual browser and the XML+V interacted.
18:37:09 [Travis]
... To me, a visual browser implementor wouldn't consider integrating XML+V directly.
18:37:51 [smaug]
s/XML+V/XHTML+Voice/
18:38:01 [Zakim]
-khiitola
18:38:32 [Zakim]
+khiitola
18:38:41 [Travis]
shepazu: Members appear to be neutral to the position, but don't want to see changes to D3E to accomodate XHTML+Voice.
18:39:02 [Travis]
... Will take this feedback to them.
18:39:31 [Travis]
Travis: (Confused about terminology)
18:40:07 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml+voice/
18:40:20 [Travis]
shepazu: Travis, willing to meet with these people informally at TPAC?
18:40:26 [Travis]
Travis: Yes.
18:40:58 [shepazu]
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/specification/x-v11spec/index.html
18:41:28 [shepazu]
Topic: I18n telcon
18:41:52 [Travis]
shepazu: Internationalization (I18n)
18:42:30 [Travis]
... I18n have had issues with KeyBoard events in the past.
18:43:35 [Travis]
... Pleased to report that post-summary of the current KeyboardEvent plan was good.
18:43:51 [Travis]
... Mentioned that we return the key after all modifier processing has happened.
18:43:57 [Travis]
... This is what they wanted.
18:45:14 [Travis]
... Concerned about encodings in supplementary planes (upper character ranges) and how they are processed by JavaScript.
18:46:06 [Travis]
Travis: Is there a JavaScript language limitation, or is this a DOM L3 Events issue to solve?
18:46:53 [Travis]
shepazu: Not sure. Apple asked if there were keyboard that could produce characters in the supplementary ranges? Answer was yet.
18:47:11 [Travis]
... s/yet/yes/
18:47:42 [Travis]
... We might try normalizing the output.
18:48:00 [Travis]
... In JavaScript there are two escape sequences in a row. Alternate forms exist.
18:48:21 [Travis]
... Again, there are a few concerns, but these aren't blocking.
18:49:13 [Travis]
... My plan is to use JavaScript escape sequences, and provide an API to extract the Unicode code point from an escape sequence (or something like that).
18:50:08 [Travis]
... e.g., so that someone using Java could get the the same character, but may have to go through another step...
18:50:33 [Travis]
... I18n will review the spec in full, but they seem happy with it. Yeah!!!
18:57:06 [Travis]
Travis: How deep to recursive event handlers go (thinking of DOMNodeInserted handler that inserts a node).
18:57:40 [Travis]
smaug: Certain changes to the DOM within a mutation event listener are not allowed.
18:57:58 [Travis]
... not sure what other implementations do.
19:00:54 [Travis]
Action: shepazu to add section on re-entrant event handlers (may be contingent on async/sync)
19:00:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-426 - Add section on re-entrant event handlers (may be contingent on async/sync) [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
19:01:19 [Travis]
Travis: This is also releated to sync/async.
19:04:41 [Travis]
Topic: -ms-styleContentLoaded
19:05:17 [Travis]
Travis: Wanting to introduce this experimental event to fill a void for detecting when the style sheets have all loaded.
19:05:34 [Travis]
shepazu: May want to contact annavk re: CSSOM for that.
19:05:49 [Travis]
Topic: detail attributes of resize event.
19:07:06 [Travis]
shepazu: If the property is not "in use" then it has random or default values.
19:08:46 [Travis]
... This reminds me of the "button" issue...
19:10:28 [Travis]
... PPK dislikes the W3C method (does not allow button combinations)
19:10:43 [krijnh]
krijnh has joined #webapps
19:11:11 [Travis]
... What do you folks think about "buttons" with more of the IE behavior (a bit mask)
19:14:28 [Travis]
Travis: I'm hesitant to add this-- don't want to introduce the complexity and redundancy (and confusion?)
19:16:35 [Travis]
shepazu: I'd like to put this in the spec as a proposal--to get community feedback.
19:17:06 [Travis]
topic: default actions triggered by programmatic dispatch
19:22:20 [Travis]
... e.g., programmatically create click event, dispatch it to an <A> element, and does it navigate the page?
19:22:27 [Travis]
shepazu: This makes me really nervous.
19:22:46 [Travis]
Travis: This is allowed in most browsers (I believe)
19:23:03 [Travis]
smaug: Yes, for back compat--we broke this once and got lots of complaints.
19:23:40 [smaug]
^^^^that was for keypress on input elements, IIRC
19:24:53 [Travis]
... We distinguish between "trusted events" and "non-trusted", and give trusted events the ability to cause default actions.
19:25:08 [smaug]
isTrusted
19:25:11 [Travis]
shepazu: Should we add this concept to the spec?
19:26:03 [Travis]
... This would be a new attribute for events ("trusted"={true/false}). Programmatic dispatch of events would always be trusted=false.
19:28:15 [Travis]
Topic: Ninja Dispatch
19:29:00 [Travis]
Travis: Create an event. Init the event. Call stopImmediatePropagation(). Now dispatch.
19:29:51 [Travis]
Action: shepazu Add clarity about dispatch under the scenario of propagation has been stopped before dispatch.
19:29:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-427 - Add clarity about dispatch under the scenario of propagation has been stopped before dispatch. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
19:33:34 [Travis]
Topic: 5.1.1: "this event must not be triggered".
19:33:58 [Travis]
Travis: This does not accomodate the Window object.
19:34:48 [Hixie]
Hixie has joined #webapps
19:35:13 [Travis]
... (e.g., defaultView)
19:35:54 [Travis]
... Should all events be allowed to be captured on the defaultView?
19:35:56 [Travis]
shepazu: Yes.
19:37:47 [Travis]
Action: shepazu Change text in 5.1.1 to "If an event listener for the load event is attached to a node other than Window (defaultView), Document or Element nodes, or if it is attached to the bubbling phase only, this event listener must not be triggered.
19:37:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-428 - Change text in 5.1.1 to "If an event listener for the load event is attached to a node other than Window (defaultView), Document or Element nodes, or if it is attached to the bubbling phase only, this event listener must not be triggered. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
19:38:45 [Travis]
Travis: That's all I have
19:38:53 [ArtB]
ArtB has joined #webapps
19:38:58 [Travis]
shepazu: Want to discuss touch/gesture events?
19:39:27 [Travis]
khiitola: Would love to get a list of people interested in contributing to a specification on touch/gesture?
19:40:08 [Marcos]
Marcos has joined #webapps
19:40:22 [Travis]
shepazu: It's in our charter to handle this.
19:40:37 [Travis]
... Call to advisory commitee has already gone out.
19:41:15 [Travis]
... Can ask for "interest" in the advisory committee (using official channels)
19:41:49 [Travis]
... Can ask specific people as desired.
19:42:39 [Travis]
shepazu: Note: No telecon next week.
19:45:46 [Travis]
Action: shepazu to the COMM teams and PLH to make a call for participation for multitouch.
19:45:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-429 - The COMM teams and PLH to make a call for participation for multitouch. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
19:48:40 [Travis]
shepazu: For multitouch, does each touchpoint have an id?
19:48:59 [Travis]
smaug: A stream id.
19:49:21 [Travis]
shepazu: What about two different people touching the device?
19:49:54 [Travis]
(Travis not participating)
19:50:10 [Travis]
shepazu: You CAN detect it!!
19:50:31 [Travis]
shepazu: Can refer to this as "alternative input events" (AIE)
19:50:49 [Travis]
khiitola: Should include the word "ninja"
19:51:25 [Travis]
Travis has left #webapps
19:51:26 [Zakim]
-khiitola
19:51:35 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
19:51:37 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
19:51:40 [Zakim]
-smaug
19:51:41 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has ended
19:51:43 [Zakim]
Attendees were [Microsoft], Shepazu, yngve, smaug, +358.407.37aaaa, khiitola
20:12:40 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webapps
20:24:20 [timeless_mbp]
timeless_mbp has joined #webapps
20:37:24 [shepazu]
trackbot, end telcon
20:37:24 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
20:37:25 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:37:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
20:37:26 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-actions.rdf :
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shepazu to add section on re-entrant event handlers (may be contingent on async/sync) [1]
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc#T19-00-54
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shepazu Add clarity about dispatch under the scenario of propagation has been stopped before dispatch. [2]
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc#T19-29-51
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shepazu Change text in 5.1.1 to "If an event listener for the load event is attached to a node other than Window (defaultView), Document or Element nodes, or if it is attached to the bubbling phase only, this event listener must not be triggered. [3]
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc#T19-37-47
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shepazu to the COMM teams and PLH to make a call for participation for multitouch. [4]
20:37:26 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc#T19-45-46