18:00:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webapps
18:00:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc
18:01:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:01:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webapps
18:01:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
18:01:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
18:01:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
18:01:04 <trackbot> Date: 28 October 2009
18:01:17 <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
18:01:18 <Zakim> ok, shepazu, I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM already started
18:01:24 <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu 
18:01:24 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
18:01:26 <Zakim> +Shepazu
18:02:28 <Zakim> +yngve
18:02:50 <smaug> yngve?
18:02:58 <Zakim> -yngve
18:03:24 <Zakim> +??P1
18:03:36 <smaug> Zakim ??P1 is me
18:03:44 <smaug> Zakim, ??P1 is me
18:03:44 <Zakim> +smaug; got it
18:04:45 <Travis> scribe: Travis
18:04:53 <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
18:05:14 <smaug> khiitola: ping
18:05:29 <Travis> shepazu: Who's going to TPAC?
18:05:33 <Travis> I am.
18:05:37 <Travis> smaug: No.
18:05:39 <khiitola> smaug: pong.
18:05:53 <smaug> khiitola: the telco is now, if you want to join
18:06:11 <Travis> shepazu: mmm.
18:06:21 <khiitola> Thanks. Trying to decipher what's happening here. (sorry, I'm a newbie) 
18:06:56 <shepazu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009OctDec/0078.html
18:07:04 <shepazu> Zakim, code?
18:07:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 3663 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
18:07:33 <Zakim> + +358.407.37aaaa
18:07:59 <shepazu> Zakim, 37aaaa is khiitola 
18:07:59 <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named '37aaaa'
18:08:16 <shepazu> Zakim, +358 is khiitola 
18:08:16 <Zakim> +khiitola; got it
18:11:43 <Travis> khiitola: Here to talk about touch/gesture at your convenience
18:12:06 <Travis> shepazu: I've thought about putting touch/gesture into DOM L4 events.
18:12:28 <Travis> ... but have been advised to put it into its own spec.
18:12:52 <Travis> ... many companies have IP in this area and could be a minefeild.
18:13:28 <Travis> ... We're still not done with Dom L3 Events, so want to keep focus there.
18:15:05 <Travis> ... Folks are free to discuss on the list, but may not get much traction.
18:15:14 <Travis> ... khiitola does this fit your timeframe?
18:15:30 <Travis> khiitola: Would love something sooner, but willing to live with the group's decision.
18:15:49 <Travis> shepazu: Naturally, I'm don't have to be the editor...
18:15:59 <Travis> khiitola: I vote for smaug
18:16:24 <Travis> smaug: Hmm. very funny.
18:16:37 <Travis> shepazu: Also very busy... 
18:25:06 <Travis> shepazu: Let's hit the agenda, and then come back to Touch stuff.
18:25:18 <shepazu> Topic: DOM3 Events in VoiceXML
18:25:58 <Travis> shepazu: Spoke with International folks and VoicXML team recently.
18:26:32 <Travis> ... "Visual browser" preferred in that Working group ;-)
18:27:02 <Travis> ... They are using DOM L3 Events in an unorthedox way.
18:27:38 <Travis> ... May be able converge XML+V into D3E.
18:27:50 <Travis> ... Here's how they use D3E:
18:28:56 <Travis> ... No script (all declarative). For a document, the capture phase is used to determine a catch handler.
18:29:59 <Travis> ... Any catch handler (on a proximal event target) gets accumulated.
18:30:26 <Travis> ... Very similar to how a UA registered event handlers in the markup during parsing.
18:31:01 <Travis> ... Subtle differences: Only one handler will get invoked (not all possible handlers).
18:32:22 <Travis> ... Their algorithm selects the most appropriate event given current context.
18:33:11 <Travis> ... They asked whether it's reasonable to use D3E for their technique.
18:33:22 <Travis> ... Jury's still out.
18:34:40 <Travis> smaug: MS has SALT... similar to XML+V -- and more similar to what visual browsers do.
18:34:56 <Travis> shepazu: What if there was a SALT-like profile?
18:35:56 <Travis> smaug: Opera has some support for XML+V (or used to?)
18:36:17 <Travis> ... Not sure how the visual browser and the XML+V interacted.
18:37:09 <Travis> ... To me, a visual browser implementor wouldn't consider integrating XML+V directly.
18:37:51 <smaug> s/XML+V/XHTML+Voice/
18:38:01 <Zakim> -khiitola
18:38:32 <Zakim> +khiitola
18:38:41 <Travis> shepazu: Members appear to be neutral to the position, but don't want to see changes to D3E to accomodate XHTML+Voice.
18:39:02 <Travis> ... Will take this feedback to them.
18:39:31 <Travis> Travis: (Confused about terminology)
18:40:07 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml+voice/
18:40:20 <Travis> shepazu: Travis, willing to meet with these people informally at TPAC?
18:40:26 <Travis> Travis: Yes.
18:40:58 <shepazu> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/specification/x-v11spec/index.html
18:41:28 <shepazu> Topic: I18n telcon
18:41:52 <Travis> shepazu: Internationalization (I18n)
18:42:30 <Travis> ... I18n have had issues with KeyBoard events in the past.
18:43:35 <Travis> ... Pleased to report that post-summary of the current KeyboardEvent plan was good.
18:43:51 <Travis> ... Mentioned that we return the key after all modifier processing has happened.
18:43:57 <Travis> ... This is what they wanted.
18:45:14 <Travis> ... Concerned about encodings in supplementary planes (upper character ranges) and how they are processed by JavaScript.
18:46:06 <Travis> Travis: Is there a JavaScript language limitation, or is this a DOM L3 Events issue to solve?
18:46:53 <Travis> shepazu: Not sure. Apple asked if there were keyboard that could produce characters in the supplementary ranges? Answer was yet.
18:47:11 <Travis> ... s/yet/yes/
18:47:42 <Travis> ... We might try normalizing the output.
18:48:00 <Travis> ... In JavaScript there are two escape sequences in a row. Alternate forms exist.
18:48:21 <Travis> ... Again, there are a few concerns, but these aren't blocking.
18:49:13 <Travis> ... My plan is to use JavaScript escape sequences, and provide an API to extract the Unicode code point from an escape sequence (or something like that).
18:50:08 <Travis> ... e.g., so that someone using Java could get the the same character, but may have to go through another step...
18:50:33 <Travis> ... I18n will review the spec in full, but they seem happy with it. Yeah!!!
18:57:06 <Travis> Travis: How deep to recursive event handlers go (thinking of DOMNodeInserted handler that inserts a node).
18:57:40 <Travis> smaug: Certain changes to the DOM within a mutation event listener are not allowed.
18:57:58 <Travis> ... not sure what other implementations do.
19:00:54 <Travis> Action: shepazu to add section on re-entrant event handlers (may be contingent on async/sync)
19:00:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-426 - Add section on re-entrant event handlers (may be contingent on async/sync) [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
19:01:19 <Travis> Travis: This is also releated to sync/async.
19:04:41 <Travis> Topic: -ms-styleContentLoaded
19:05:17 <Travis> Travis: Wanting to introduce this experimental event to fill a void for detecting when the style sheets have all loaded.
19:05:34 <Travis> shepazu: May want to contact annavk re: CSSOM for that.
19:05:49 <Travis> Topic: detail attributes of resize event.
19:07:06 <Travis> shepazu: If the property is not "in use" then it has random or default values.
19:08:46 <Travis> ... This reminds me of the "button" issue...
19:10:28 <Travis> ... PPK dislikes the W3C method (does not allow button combinations)
19:10:43 <krijnh> krijnh has joined #webapps
19:11:11 <Travis> ... What do you folks think about "buttons" with more of the IE behavior (a bit mask)
19:14:28 <Travis> Travis: I'm hesitant to add this-- don't want to introduce the complexity and redundancy (and confusion?)
19:16:35 <Travis> shepazu: I'd like to put this in the spec as a proposal--to get community feedback.
19:17:06 <Travis> topic: default actions triggered by programmatic dispatch
19:22:20 <Travis> ... e.g., programmatically create click event, dispatch it to an <A> element, and does it navigate the page?
19:22:27 <Travis> shepazu: This makes me really nervous.
19:22:46 <Travis> Travis: This is allowed in most browsers (I believe)
19:23:03 <Travis> smaug: Yes, for back compat--we broke this once and got lots of complaints.
19:23:40 <smaug> ^^^^that was for keypress on input elements, IIRC
19:24:53 <Travis> ... We distinguish between "trusted events" and "non-trusted", and give trusted events the ability to cause default actions.
19:25:08 <smaug> isTrusted
19:25:11 <Travis> shepazu: Should we add this concept to the spec?
19:26:03 <Travis> ... This would be a new attribute for events ("trusted"={true/false}). Programmatic dispatch of events would always be trusted=false.
19:28:15 <Travis> Topic: Ninja Dispatch
19:29:00 <Travis> Travis: Create an event. Init the event. Call stopImmediatePropagation(). Now dispatch.
19:29:51 <Travis> Action: shepazu Add clarity about dispatch under the scenario of propagation has been stopped before dispatch.
19:29:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-427 - Add clarity about dispatch under the scenario of propagation has been stopped before dispatch. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
19:33:34 <Travis> Topic: 5.1.1: "this event must not be triggered". 
19:33:58 <Travis> Travis: This does not accomodate the Window object.
19:34:48 <Hixie> Hixie has joined #webapps
19:35:13 <Travis> ... (e.g., defaultView)
19:35:54 <Travis> ... Should all events be allowed to be captured on the defaultView?
19:35:56 <Travis> shepazu: Yes.
19:37:47 <Travis> Action: shepazu Change text in 5.1.1 to "If an event listener for the load event is attached to a node other than Window (defaultView), Document or Element nodes, or if it is attached to the bubbling phase only, this event listener must not be triggered.
19:37:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-428 - Change text in 5.1.1 to "If an event listener for the load event is attached to a node other than Window (defaultView), Document or Element nodes, or if it is attached to the bubbling phase only, this event listener must not be triggered. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
19:38:45 <Travis> Travis: That's all I have
19:38:53 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #webapps
19:38:58 <Travis> shepazu: Want to discuss touch/gesture events?
19:39:27 <Travis> khiitola: Would love to get a list of people interested in contributing to a specification on touch/gesture?
19:40:08 <Marcos> Marcos has joined #webapps
19:40:22 <Travis> shepazu: It's in our charter to handle this.
19:40:37 <Travis> ... Call to advisory commitee has already gone out.
19:41:15 <Travis> ... Can ask for "interest" in the advisory committee (using official channels)
19:41:49 <Travis> ... Can ask specific people as desired.
19:42:39 <Travis> shepazu: Note: No telecon next week.
19:45:46 <Travis> Action: shepazu to the COMM teams and PLH to make a call for participation for multitouch.
19:45:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-429 - The COMM teams and PLH to make a call for participation for multitouch. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-11-04].
19:48:40 <Travis> shepazu: For multitouch, does each touchpoint have an id?
19:48:59 <Travis> smaug: A stream id.
19:49:21 <Travis> shepazu: What about two different people touching the device?
19:49:54 <Travis> (Travis not participating)
19:50:10 <Travis> shepazu: You CAN detect it!!
19:50:31 <Travis> shepazu: Can refer to this as "alternative input events" (AIE)
19:50:49 <Travis> khiitola: Should include the word "ninja"
19:51:25 <Travis> Travis has left #webapps
19:51:26 <Zakim> -khiitola
19:51:35 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
19:51:37 <Zakim> -Shepazu
19:51:40 <Zakim> -smaug
19:51:41 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has ended
19:51:43 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Shepazu, yngve, smaug, +358.407.37aaaa, khiitola
20:12:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webapps
20:24:20 <timeless_mbp> timeless_mbp has joined #webapps
20:37:24 <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
20:37:24 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
20:37:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:37:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
20:37:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
20:37:26 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-actions.rdf :
20:37:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu to add section on re-entrant event handlers (may be contingent on async/sync) [1]
20:37:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc#T19-00-54
20:37:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu Add clarity about dispatch under the scenario of propagation has been stopped before dispatch. [2]
20:37:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc#T19-29-51
20:37:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu Change text in 5.1.1 to "If an event listener for the load event is attached to a node other than Window (defaultView), Document or Element nodes, or if it is attached to the bubbling phase only, this event listener must not be triggered. [3]
20:37:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc#T19-37-47
20:37:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu to the COMM teams and PLH to make a call for participation for multitouch. [4]
20:37:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-webapps-irc#T19-45-46