06:30:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
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06:30:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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06:30:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:30:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start now
06:30:31 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:30:31 <trackbot> Date: 28 October 2009
06:31:04 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:31:11 <Zakim> +??P0
06:31:21 <ed> Zakim,??P0 is me
06:31:21 <Zakim> +ed; got it
06:35:30 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
06:36:06 <Zakim> +??P2
06:36:13 <anthony> zakim, ??P2 is me
06:36:13 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
06:41:03 <ed> http://mcc.id.au/2007/03/telcon/
06:46:49 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
06:46:53 <anthony> Chair: Erik
06:46:56 <anthony> Topic: Telcon Times
06:47:16 <anthony> DS: I see 20:00 UTC
06:47:26 <anthony> ED: That would be 21:00 for Chris and me
06:48:01 <anthony> AG: That would be 8:00am following day for me
06:48:16 <anthony> DS: Marked 18:30 on Monday as bad
06:48:53 <anthony> ... no wait just double checking
06:49:16 <anthony> ... we talked about 19:00 to 20:30 UTC
06:50:51 <anthony> ... Chris marked 19:00 to 20:30 UTC as best and then good
06:51:08 <anthony> ... for him that would be 20:00 to 21:30 UTC + 1
06:51:23 <anthony> ED: I would prefer to start 20:30 UTC + 1
06:51:42 <ed> ...or better still 21:00 UTC+1
06:52:16 <anthony> DS: Chris has that for Monday and Thursday as good and best
06:52:21 <anthony> ... for me that would be
06:53:18 <anthony> ... 15:00 my time
06:53:53 <anthony> AG: So for me that would be 7am the following day which is fine
06:56:15 <anthony> DS: Starting at 20:00 UTC and going for an hour and a half
06:56:24 <anthony> ... one thing Chris said wanted to have a block of time
06:56:28 <anthony> ... before and after
06:56:37 <anthony> ... for getting together to do work
06:57:14 <anthony> ... we could have this as an understood convention
06:57:19 <anthony> ... that this is going on
06:57:29 <anthony> ... and is time to use for actions
06:57:39 <anthony> ... just a convention to follow, more for him
06:57:52 <anthony> ... I'll probably do the same thing
06:58:17 <anthony> ED: Did we want to go for two telcons or one
06:58:22 <anthony> DS: I think we should go for two
06:58:29 <anthony> ... so lets go ahead and block off those times
06:58:32 <anthony> ... just incase
06:58:48 <anthony> ED: That would be Monday and Thursday 20:00 UTC
06:59:37 <anthony> RESOLUTION: We will change telephone conference times to Monday and Thursday 20:00 UTC
07:00:29 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to Email the change of telephone conference times to the group and update the wiki page with the new times
07:00:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2687 - Email the change of telephone conference times to the group and update the wiki page with the new times [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-11-04].
07:01:02 <anthony> DS: Chris and I will not be at the telcon next week
07:01:09 <anthony> ... because we will be at TPAC
07:01:26 <anthony> ED: So the new times will be active the week after next
07:01:49 <anthony> ... I think it's Monday 9th
07:02:04 <anthony> ... Doug you will make sure Zakim knows the new times as well?
07:02:11 <anthony> DS: I'll change that now
07:04:49 <anthony> Topic: SVG Full 1.1 Marathon
07:05:02 <anthony> ED: Should we start off with having a telcon
07:05:14 <anthony> ... or is it fine to do the work normal office hours?
07:05:26 <anthony> ... for me it will be fine to have a telcon at the time we usually have
07:05:30 <anthony> ... just to start off
07:05:49 <anthony> DS: I'm not fussed either way
07:07:52 <anthony> ED: Try to be available on IRC and try to be available for a small telcon will be good
07:07:59 <anthony> ... I pretty much know what I need to do anyway
07:08:07 <anthony> ... I thought I'd move some of the tests from the old errata location
07:08:13 <anthony> ... to the test suite
07:08:23 <anthony> ... we have some tests there that cover some things that are not tested at the moment
07:08:32 <anthony> ... we need to do some more reviewing of tests
07:08:42 <anthony> ... and make sure the Java binding appendix goes in
07:12:53 <anthony> AG: Do we want the svgweb version to be available as a local version only or as a web version or both?
07:13:38 <anthony> ED: It would be convenient to have the svgweb version as an online reference
07:13:44 <anthony> ... if you have time you can do both
07:15:14 <anthony> Topic: Rendering Order and Z-Index proposal
07:15:33 <anthony> ED: I guess we could discuss it but Chris and JWatt are not here
07:15:42 <anthony> DS: I saw JWatt's proposal
07:15:48 <anthony> ... and it seemed reasonable
07:16:04 <anthony> ... I'm not totally convinced it covers all the use cases we have
07:18:59 <anthony> ... Andrew's doesn't seem like it has effective preventions for abuse
07:19:23 <anthony> ... JWatt's provide a consistent method for resolving complicated cases
07:19:32 <anthony> ... I think that if we do this
07:19:39 <anthony> ... we should caution people to use this sparingly
07:19:50 <anthony> ... and talk about cases with hit testing
07:20:21 <anthony> ED: cases I've seen this pop up is pseudo 3D
07:20:34 <anthony> DS: We should also think of this in the context of 3D Transforms
07:21:21 <anthony> ... we should look at tightly integrating this with 3D Transforms
07:21:30 <Zakim> +??P3
07:21:48 <jwatt> Zakim, P3 is me
07:21:48 <Zakim> sorry, jwatt, I do not recognize a party named 'P3'
07:21:56 <jwatt> Zakim, ??P3 is me
07:21:56 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
07:23:20 <anthony> DS: I personally like the idea that z-index would be the name of the property
07:23:38 <anthony> ... I think people who are using z-index from HTML and CSS will know what they are looking for
07:23:46 <anthony> ED: Being able to move elements in the tree
07:23:53 <anthony> ... without taking them out of the tree
07:24:05 <anthony> ... is useful
07:24:44 <anthony> ... it gives you z-index type benefits for some operations
07:25:03 <anthony> DS: I think it's orthogonal, both are useful 
07:25:10 <anthony> ED: It doesn't complicate the rendering model
07:25:17 <anthony> ... but I guess people want z-index anyway
07:25:25 <anthony> DS: It only works when using scripting
07:26:12 <anthony> ... this sounds like something for DOM 4, like what happens when you move an element - do you reload it
07:26:27 <anthony> ... I think the best thing to do is move forward on z-index with the CSS
07:26:43 <anthony> ... this is something to think about this for 3D Transforms anyway
07:27:14 <anthony> ... when you are structuring documents specifying things in z-index can be very useful
07:35:11 <Zakim> -anthony
07:35:54 <Zakim> +??P2
07:36:01 <anthony> Zakim, ??P2 is me
07:36:01 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
07:36:15 <anthony> ... we should stay what happens in the default case that when a transform z puts something behind something else
07:36:30 <anthony> ED: The proposal from JWatt is that being put into spec text?
07:36:44 <anthony> JW: Would it be better to put it into something
07:36:52 <anthony> ... instead of it's own stand alone document
07:37:05 <anthony> ... seems a bit weird to have a single property in it's own document
07:38:00 <anthony> DS: Let's say that we have this single property defined if an implementer wanted to do SVG 1.1 + this
07:38:06 <anthony> ... that would permit them to do so
07:38:23 <anthony> ... they could say we implement SVG 1.1 and this
07:38:44 <anthony> JW: What's the difference to them taking it out of a spec
07:38:51 <anthony> ... and saying they just do that
07:38:59 <anthony> ... feature?
07:39:58 <anthony> DS: People will want very clear conformance criteria to say they support a particular spec
07:41:39 <anthony> JW: As an implementer I can see the bits and I put it together
07:41:47 <anthony> ... but as an author it's difficult
07:42:01 <anthony> ... having picking and choosing things can make things worse
07:42:23 <anthony> ... for example people might just implement it because it's part of spec
07:44:33 <anthony> DS: What about putting it into 3D Transforms?
07:44:58 <anthony> JW: Well I'm not opposed to having it as separate spec or putting it somewhere
07:45:24 <anthony> ... I just don't see how it's going to be easier to comment on
07:52:33 <anthony> DS: The more I think about it I think it belongs in compositing
07:52:45 <anthony> ED: Because it affects the rendering model
07:52:55 <anthony> ... it should go into render concepts
07:53:04 <anthony> DS: Certainly that's where it should go in 2.0
07:57:17 <anthony> AG: [rambles on about defining a rendering model spec to bring all the work together]
07:58:19 <anthony> ED: Do we want to start the rendering concepts spec right away
07:59:51 <anthony> ... or do we need to something fire?
07:59:57 <anthony> s/fire/first/
08:00:05 <anthony> DS: I think that is a very useful level
08:02:09 <anthony> ... start with the rendering model from 1.2
08:02:18 <anthony> ... reconcile that with 1.1
08:02:23 <anthony> ... put in rendering index
08:05:05 <anthony> RESOLUTION: We will start writing a rendering concepts specification detailing the rendering model
08:05:53 <anthony> ACTION: Jonathan to Begin authoring the rendering concepts specification
08:05:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2688 - Begin authoring the rendering concepts specification [on Jonathan Watt - due 2009-11-04].
08:06:46 <shepazu> Topic: list collection
08:07:19 <anthony> DS: right now you create a list collection and you put it into the newest collection
08:07:30 <anthony> JW: I sent two replies to that
08:07:45 <anthony> ... did you see them?
08:07:53 <anthony> DS: I only saw one of them
08:08:15 <anthony> ED: Forgot to CC Doug
08:08:22 <anthony> ... I would like this feedback to go to the public list
08:14:07 <anthony> JW: We plan to implement what the spec says
08:14:16 <anthony> ... probably do it at the same time we do animation for lists
08:14:25 <anthony> ... code needs to be rewritten for animaiton
08:14:36 <anthony> ED: Doing live objects and removal of lists
08:14:43 <anthony> ... there's no extra costs
08:14:49 <anthony> ... you do one you get the other one free
08:14:58 <anthony> JW: My opinion you do it live
08:15:26 <ed> s/removal of lists/removal of objects from previous lists/
08:15:51 <anthony> ... you take one matrix from one list and put it into another list then you have two elements using the same matrix
08:16:14 <anthony> ... you have to tell both elements when one changes
08:16:32 <anthony> ... so if using hundreds of elements this can be a performance hit
08:16:49 <anthony> DS: Seems like you guys both agreed that it's better to do it this way
08:17:03 <shepazu> Topic: CSS pseudo classes for <a>
08:17:26 <anthony> DS: Do you guys agree that CSS pseudo classes should be supported in SVG?
08:17:36 <anthony> ... even though they aren't
08:17:41 <anthony> ED: They are in Opera
08:17:45 <anthony> ... and in FireFox 2
08:17:56 <anthony> JW: Just consistency in the web platform
08:17:59 <ed> s/2/too/
08:18:36 <anthony> ED: It's a bug if it doesn't work
08:18:38 <shepazu> s/even though they aren't/even if they aren't
08:21:17 <Zakim> -anthony
08:21:18 <Zakim> -jwatt
08:21:18 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
08:21:20 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended
08:21:21 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, Doug_Schepers, anthony, jwatt
08:21:26 <anthony> Zakim, bye
08:21:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
08:21:32 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
08:21:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/28-svg-minutes.html anthony