IRC log of svg on 2009-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:30:26 [RRSAgent]
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06:30:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to
06:30:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
06:30:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
06:30:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
06:30:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30AM scheduled to start now
06:30:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
06:30:31 [trackbot]
Date: 28 October 2009
06:31:04 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has now started
06:31:11 [Zakim]
06:31:21 [ed]
Zakim,??P0 is me
06:31:21 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
06:35:30 [Zakim]
06:36:06 [Zakim]
06:36:13 [anthony]
zakim, ??P2 is me
06:36:13 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
06:41:03 [ed]
06:46:49 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
06:46:53 [anthony]
Chair: Erik
06:46:56 [anthony]
Topic: Telcon Times
06:47:16 [anthony]
DS: I see 20:00 UTC
06:47:26 [anthony]
ED: That would be 21:00 for Chris and me
06:48:01 [anthony]
AG: That would be 8:00am following day for me
06:48:16 [anthony]
DS: Marked 18:30 on Monday as bad
06:48:53 [anthony]
... no wait just double checking
06:49:16 [anthony]
... we talked about 19:00 to 20:30 UTC
06:50:51 [anthony]
... Chris marked 19:00 to 20:30 UTC as best and then good
06:51:08 [anthony]
... for him that would be 20:00 to 21:30 UTC + 1
06:51:23 [anthony]
ED: I would prefer to start 20:30 UTC + 1
06:51:42 [ed]
...or better still 21:00 UTC+1
06:52:16 [anthony]
DS: Chris has that for Monday and Thursday as good and best
06:52:21 [anthony]
... for me that would be
06:53:18 [anthony]
... 15:00 my time
06:53:53 [anthony]
AG: So for me that would be 7am the following day which is fine
06:56:15 [anthony]
DS: Starting at 20:00 UTC and going for an hour and a half
06:56:24 [anthony]
... one thing Chris said wanted to have a block of time
06:56:28 [anthony]
... before and after
06:56:37 [anthony]
... for getting together to do work
06:57:14 [anthony]
... we could have this as an understood convention
06:57:19 [anthony]
... that this is going on
06:57:29 [anthony]
... and is time to use for actions
06:57:39 [anthony]
... just a convention to follow, more for him
06:57:52 [anthony]
... I'll probably do the same thing
06:58:17 [anthony]
ED: Did we want to go for two telcons or one
06:58:22 [anthony]
DS: I think we should go for two
06:58:29 [anthony]
... so lets go ahead and block off those times
06:58:32 [anthony]
... just incase
06:58:48 [anthony]
ED: That would be Monday and Thursday 20:00 UTC
06:59:37 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will change telephone conference times to Monday and Thursday 20:00 UTC
07:00:29 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to Email the change of telephone conference times to the group and update the wiki page with the new times
07:00:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2687 - Email the change of telephone conference times to the group and update the wiki page with the new times [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-11-04].
07:01:02 [anthony]
DS: Chris and I will not be at the telcon next week
07:01:09 [anthony]
... because we will be at TPAC
07:01:26 [anthony]
ED: So the new times will be active the week after next
07:01:49 [anthony]
... I think it's Monday 9th
07:02:04 [anthony]
... Doug you will make sure Zakim knows the new times as well?
07:02:11 [anthony]
DS: I'll change that now
07:04:49 [anthony]
Topic: SVG Full 1.1 Marathon
07:05:02 [anthony]
ED: Should we start off with having a telcon
07:05:14 [anthony]
... or is it fine to do the work normal office hours?
07:05:26 [anthony]
... for me it will be fine to have a telcon at the time we usually have
07:05:30 [anthony]
... just to start off
07:05:49 [anthony]
DS: I'm not fussed either way
07:07:52 [anthony]
ED: Try to be available on IRC and try to be available for a small telcon will be good
07:07:59 [anthony]
... I pretty much know what I need to do anyway
07:08:07 [anthony]
... I thought I'd move some of the tests from the old errata location
07:08:13 [anthony]
... to the test suite
07:08:23 [anthony]
... we have some tests there that cover some things that are not tested at the moment
07:08:32 [anthony]
... we need to do some more reviewing of tests
07:08:42 [anthony]
... and make sure the Java binding appendix goes in
07:12:53 [anthony]
AG: Do we want the svgweb version to be available as a local version only or as a web version or both?
07:13:38 [anthony]
ED: It would be convenient to have the svgweb version as an online reference
07:13:44 [anthony]
... if you have time you can do both
07:15:14 [anthony]
Topic: Rendering Order and Z-Index proposal
07:15:33 [anthony]
ED: I guess we could discuss it but Chris and JWatt are not here
07:15:42 [anthony]
DS: I saw JWatt's proposal
07:15:48 [anthony]
... and it seemed reasonable
07:16:04 [anthony]
... I'm not totally convinced it covers all the use cases we have
07:18:59 [anthony]
... Andrew's doesn't seem like it has effective preventions for abuse
07:19:23 [anthony]
... JWatt's provide a consistent method for resolving complicated cases
07:19:32 [anthony]
... I think that if we do this
07:19:39 [anthony]
... we should caution people to use this sparingly
07:19:50 [anthony]
... and talk about cases with hit testing
07:20:21 [anthony]
ED: cases I've seen this pop up is pseudo 3D
07:20:34 [anthony]
DS: We should also think of this in the context of 3D Transforms
07:21:21 [anthony]
... we should look at tightly integrating this with 3D Transforms
07:21:30 [Zakim]
07:21:48 [jwatt]
Zakim, P3 is me
07:21:48 [Zakim]
sorry, jwatt, I do not recognize a party named 'P3'
07:21:56 [jwatt]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
07:21:56 [Zakim]
+jwatt; got it
07:23:20 [anthony]
DS: I personally like the idea that z-index would be the name of the property
07:23:38 [anthony]
... I think people who are using z-index from HTML and CSS will know what they are looking for
07:23:46 [anthony]
ED: Being able to move elements in the tree
07:23:53 [anthony]
... without taking them out of the tree
07:24:05 [anthony]
... is useful
07:24:44 [anthony]
... it gives you z-index type benefits for some operations
07:25:03 [anthony]
DS: I think it's orthogonal, both are useful
07:25:10 [anthony]
ED: It doesn't complicate the rendering model
07:25:17 [anthony]
... but I guess people want z-index anyway
07:25:25 [anthony]
DS: It only works when using scripting
07:26:12 [anthony]
... this sounds like something for DOM 4, like what happens when you move an element - do you reload it
07:26:27 [anthony]
... I think the best thing to do is move forward on z-index with the CSS
07:26:43 [anthony]
... this is something to think about this for 3D Transforms anyway
07:27:14 [anthony]
... when you are structuring documents specifying things in z-index can be very useful
07:35:11 [Zakim]
07:35:54 [Zakim]
07:36:01 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
07:36:01 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
07:36:15 [anthony]
... we should stay what happens in the default case that when a transform z puts something behind something else
07:36:30 [anthony]
ED: The proposal from JWatt is that being put into spec text?
07:36:44 [anthony]
JW: Would it be better to put it into something
07:36:52 [anthony]
... instead of it's own stand alone document
07:37:05 [anthony]
... seems a bit weird to have a single property in it's own document
07:38:00 [anthony]
DS: Let's say that we have this single property defined if an implementer wanted to do SVG 1.1 + this
07:38:06 [anthony]
... that would permit them to do so
07:38:23 [anthony]
... they could say we implement SVG 1.1 and this
07:38:44 [anthony]
JW: What's the difference to them taking it out of a spec
07:38:51 [anthony]
... and saying they just do that
07:38:59 [anthony]
... feature?
07:39:58 [anthony]
DS: People will want very clear conformance criteria to say they support a particular spec
07:41:39 [anthony]
JW: As an implementer I can see the bits and I put it together
07:41:47 [anthony]
... but as an author it's difficult
07:42:01 [anthony]
... having picking and choosing things can make things worse
07:42:23 [anthony]
... for example people might just implement it because it's part of spec
07:44:33 [anthony]
DS: What about putting it into 3D Transforms?
07:44:58 [anthony]
JW: Well I'm not opposed to having it as separate spec or putting it somewhere
07:45:24 [anthony]
... I just don't see how it's going to be easier to comment on
07:52:33 [anthony]
DS: The more I think about it I think it belongs in compositing
07:52:45 [anthony]
ED: Because it affects the rendering model
07:52:55 [anthony]
... it should go into render concepts
07:53:04 [anthony]
DS: Certainly that's where it should go in 2.0
07:57:17 [anthony]
AG: [rambles on about defining a rendering model spec to bring all the work together]
07:58:19 [anthony]
ED: Do we want to start the rendering concepts spec right away
07:59:51 [anthony]
... or do we need to something fire?
07:59:57 [anthony]
08:00:05 [anthony]
DS: I think that is a very useful level
08:02:09 [anthony]
... start with the rendering model from 1.2
08:02:18 [anthony]
... reconcile that with 1.1
08:02:23 [anthony]
... put in rendering index
08:05:05 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will start writing a rendering concepts specification detailing the rendering model
08:05:53 [anthony]
ACTION: Jonathan to Begin authoring the rendering concepts specification
08:05:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2688 - Begin authoring the rendering concepts specification [on Jonathan Watt - due 2009-11-04].
08:06:46 [shepazu]
Topic: list collection
08:07:19 [anthony]
DS: right now you create a list collection and you put it into the newest collection
08:07:30 [anthony]
JW: I sent two replies to that
08:07:45 [anthony]
... did you see them?
08:07:53 [anthony]
DS: I only saw one of them
08:08:15 [anthony]
ED: Forgot to CC Doug
08:08:22 [anthony]
... I would like this feedback to go to the public list
08:14:07 [anthony]
JW: We plan to implement what the spec says
08:14:16 [anthony]
... probably do it at the same time we do animation for lists
08:14:25 [anthony]
... code needs to be rewritten for animaiton
08:14:36 [anthony]
ED: Doing live objects and removal of lists
08:14:43 [anthony]
... there's no extra costs
08:14:49 [anthony]
... you do one you get the other one free
08:14:58 [anthony]
JW: My opinion you do it live
08:15:26 [ed]
s/removal of lists/removal of objects from previous lists/
08:15:51 [anthony]
... you take one matrix from one list and put it into another list then you have two elements using the same matrix
08:16:14 [anthony]
... you have to tell both elements when one changes
08:16:32 [anthony]
... so if using hundreds of elements this can be a performance hit
08:16:49 [anthony]
DS: Seems like you guys both agreed that it's better to do it this way
08:17:03 [shepazu]
Topic: CSS pseudo classes for <a>
08:17:26 [anthony]
DS: Do you guys agree that CSS pseudo classes should be supported in SVG?
08:17:36 [anthony]
... even though they aren't
08:17:41 [anthony]
ED: They are in Opera
08:17:45 [anthony]
... and in FireFox 2
08:17:56 [anthony]
JW: Just consistency in the web platform
08:17:59 [ed]
08:18:36 [anthony]
ED: It's a bug if it doesn't work
08:18:38 [shepazu]
s/even though they aren't/even if they aren't
08:21:17 [Zakim]
08:21:18 [Zakim]
08:21:18 [Zakim]
08:21:20 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()2:30AM has ended
08:21:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were ed, Doug_Schepers, anthony, jwatt
08:21:26 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
08:21:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
08:21:32 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
08:21:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate anthony