14:55:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swxg
14:55:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-swxg-irc
14:55:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7994
14:55:48 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:49 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
14:55:49 <trackbot> Date: 21 October 2009
14:56:18 <tpa> tpa has joined #swxg
14:56:52 <tlr> zakim, ??P16 is rreck
14:56:52 <Zakim> +rreck; got it
14:56:52 <rreck> zakim, ??P16 is me
14:56:53 <Zakim> I already had ??P16 as rreck, rreck
14:57:25 <rreck> cant put one past you can we Zakim?
14:57:34 <Zakim> +DKA
14:57:50 <Zakim> +??P17
14:57:57 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??P17 is hhalpin
14:57:57 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
14:58:31 <DKA> chair: DKA
14:58:41 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:58:41 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose rreck
14:58:46 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:58:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DKA
14:58:47 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:58:47 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DKA
14:58:50 <hhalpin> :)
14:58:51 <hhalpin> :)
14:58:52 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:58:52 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose hhalpin
14:58:56 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:58:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Thomas
14:59:00 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:59:00 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DKA
14:59:01 <hhalpin> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:59:01 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DKA
14:59:19 <tlr> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, rreck, DKA, hhalpin
14:59:19 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:59:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, rreck, DKA, hhalpin
14:59:31 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
14:59:47 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed
14:59:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:59:51 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:59:51 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:00:02 <Zakim> + +63.59.2.aaaa
15:00:10 <tpa> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:00:10 <Zakim> +tpa; got it
15:00:11 <yuk> yuk has joined #swxg
15:00:12 <Zakim> +tinkster
15:00:15 <MacTed> I may be worse than your worst other option.
15:00:26 <tinkster> zakim, mute me
15:00:26 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
15:00:30 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aabb
15:00:41 <hhalpin> scribe: tpa
15:00:46 <tinkster> I can take over from Tim.
15:01:03 <hhalpin> Zakim, agenda+ Convene SWXG WG  meeting of 2009-10-21T15:00-17:00Z
15:01:03 <Zakim> agendum 7 added
15:01:14 <hhalpin> Zakim, agenda+ General Organization
15:01:14 <Zakim> agendum 8 added
15:01:18 <tpa> Zakim, what's on the agenda?
15:01:18 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:01:20 <Zakim> 6. Speaker: Matt Lee on GNU Social/Daisycha.in [from harry]
15:01:21 <oshani> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:21 <Zakim> 7. Convene SWXG WG  meeting of 2009-10-21T15:00-17:00Z [from hhalpin]
15:01:22 <Zakim> 8. General Organization [from hhalpin]
15:01:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, rreck, DKA, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), tpa, tinkster (muted), +1.617.324.aabb
15:01:29 <hhalpin> Zakim, agenda+ Invited Guest Invitations
15:01:29 <Zakim> agendum 9 added
15:01:35 <tinkster> #6 on the agenda is from last week.
15:01:39 <hhalpin> Zakim, agenda+ User Stories
15:01:39 <Zakim> agendum 10 added
15:01:50 <hhalpin> Zakim, agenda+ Final Report
15:01:50 <Zakim> agendum 11 added
15:02:03 <hhalpin> Zakim, agenda+ Invited Speaker: David Recordon and Luke Shepard from Facebook
15:02:03 <Zakim> agendum 12 added
15:02:12 <DKA> agenda?
15:02:24 <marie> marie has joined #swxg
15:02:26 <hajons> hajons has joined #swxg
15:02:29 <hhalpin> Zakim, next agendum 
15:02:29 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Convene SWXG WG  meeting of 2009-10-21T15:00-17:00Z" taken up [from hhalpin]
15:02:32 <tpa> either was is fine
15:02:33 <mischat_> mischat_ has joined #swxg
15:02:37 <hhalpin> roll call, comments on the agenda.
15:02:41 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's present?
15:02:41 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
15:02:46 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, rreck, DKA, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), tpa, tinkster (muted), +1.617.324.aabb
15:02:50 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on irc?
15:02:50 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
15:02:59 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 14th October 2009 as a true record
15:03:04 <MacTed> Zakim, who's on the call
15:03:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the call', MacTed
15:03:06 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2009/10/14-swxg-minutes.html
15:03:18 <tinkster> +1
15:03:20 <oshani> +1
15:03:27 <hhalpin> RESOLVED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 14th October 2009 as a true record
15:03:36 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. October 28th
15:03:38 <bblfish> hi
15:03:43 <FabGandon> Zakim, who's here?
15:03:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, rreck, DKA, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), tpa, tinkster (muted), oshani
15:03:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see mischat_, hajons, marie, yuk, tpa, RRSAgent, oshani, rreck, DKA, hhalpin, melvster, lkagal, bblfish, MacTed, tinkster, tlr, FabGandon, AlexPassant, karl, Zakim,
15:03:46 <rreck> +1 proposed to meet again
15:03:47 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:03:47 <Zakim> +??P42
15:03:49 <Zakim> +??P41
15:03:50 <tinkster> +1
15:03:58 <mischat_> zakim, ??P42 is me 
15:03:58 <Zakim> +mischat_; got it
15:03:58 <hhalpin> Joseph Smarr of Plaxo, and PortableContacts (XML and API for contacts that used by OpenSocial) will be presenting on his work.
15:03:59 <tpa> hhalpin: Joseph from Plaxo (& Portable contacts) will be there
15:03:59 <Zakim> +??P43
15:04:00 <DKA> q?
15:04:03 <mischat_> zakim, mute me 
15:04:03 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
15:04:15 <hhalpin> RESOLVED: to meet again Wed. October 28th
15:04:16 <rreck> zakim, mute me
15:04:16 <Zakim> rreck should now be muted
15:04:18 <danbri> danbri has joined #swxg
15:04:21 <hhalpin> Zakim, next agendum
15:04:21 <Zakim> agendum 8. "General Organization" taken up [from hhalpin]
15:04:24 <marie> zakim, dial mcf-617
15:04:24 <Zakim> ok, marie; the call is being made
15:04:25 <Zakim> +Mcf
15:04:26 <Zakim> + +46.1.08.01.aacc
15:04:28 <Zakim> + +1.510.931.aadd
15:04:38 <marie> zakim, mute mcf
15:04:38 <Zakim> Mcf should now be muted
15:04:40 <mischat_> hello all 
15:04:47 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, rreck (muted), DKA, hhalpin, MacTed (muted), tpa, tinkster (muted), oshani, mischat_ (muted), ??P41, ??P43, +46.1.08.01.aacc, Mcf (muted),
15:04:50 <Zakim> ... +1.510.931.aadd
15:04:52 <tinkster> Zakim, +??P43 is probably danbri
15:04:52 <Zakim> sorry, tinkster, I do not understand your question
15:04:52 <DKA> http://barcamp.org/SocialWebCamp-Santa-Clara
15:04:55 <tpa> ??: we put the page live for TPAC, late last week
15:04:57 <danbri> thx tinkster
15:05:06 <tpa> …we already have 28 signups, which is good
15:05:16 <rreck> wow, 28 people signed up  is great
15:05:18 <bblfish> more tweeting, more blogging!
15:05:21 <tpa> …we need to do some more evangelism about the event, get some more people engaged
15:05:23 <bblfish> :-)
15:05:23 <Zakim> +Lalana
15:05:32 <Zakim> +??P49
15:05:35 <tpa> …some good people showing up, start-up people, social web notables, etc.
15:05:59 <tpa> …we need to organize the time a little bit so we have a least a framework organization
15:06:10 <tpa> …usually you'd start a barcamp with a blank schedule
15:06:11 <tpa> q+
15:06:24 <tpa> …but I want to organize it a bit more, have a panel at the top of the day
15:06:25 <Zakim> + +1.303.308.aaee
15:06:40 <Zakim> + +1.314.705.aaff
15:06:45 <girma> girma has joined #swxg
15:06:47 <tpa> …get a technology, social & user perspective. And also a business perspective
15:06:56 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #swxg
15:07:06 <tpa> …what does the social web means as a “disruptive force” because that's integral to the whole story here
15:07:06 <hhalpin> ack tpa
15:07:07 <DKA> q?
15:07:13 <danbri> nice msg from Evan Prodromou (our identica/statusnet guest recently): "I'm very excited about this event; we'll have StatusNet Inc. staff there, and hopefully some of the other devs in the area will be able to attend."
15:08:00 <oshani> ... tpa: social web camp in Paris was productive
15:08:47 <oshani> DKA: how many people were there?
15:09:01 <mischat_> hehe
15:09:25 <oshani> tpa: it was full, and lot of ppl were confused about what social web meant
15:09:48 <bblfish> I think 60 people turned up
15:10:51 <bblfish> yes, one needs a bit of an introduction, otherwise the conversation goes all over the place. One needs to have an intro that puts everyone on the same level. 
15:11:07 <tpa> q+
15:11:58 <hhalpin> DKA - maybe throw the link out there in IRC?
15:12:05 <hhalpin> for structuring?
15:12:11 <hhalpin> ack tpa
15:12:23 <oshani> DKA: Feel free to edit the agenda for the TPAC. We have many sessions including a coding session
15:13:06 <DKA> q?
15:13:31 <Adam> Adam has joined #swxg
15:13:43 <oshani> tpa: don't think it's a venue to code, and it's better to have less structure
15:14:05 <oshani> DKA: like to have a more detailed discussion on this
15:14:17 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/TPACSchedule
15:14:20 <hhalpin> scribe: oshani
15:14:20 <oshani> ... moving to TPAC and IIW
15:14:46 <hhalpin> w3.org
15:14:55 <hhalpin> Review of code-bases (Elgg, riseup.net, daisycha.in)
15:14:58 <tpa> hhalpin: John said we were too far ahead of time to talk about w3.org implementing social web stuff
15:15:09 <hhalpin> scribe: oshani
15:15:12 <hhalpin> scribe: tpa
15:15:28 <hajons> ok
15:15:31 <tpa> … I'd just like to make sure that we have the relevant codebase covered to implement social networking features at w3.org
15:15:54 <Zakim> + +1.773.742.aagg
15:16:06 <bblfish> I will go
15:16:10 <tpa> hhalpin: Another point is that we had a request for XG people to come to IIW (Internet Identity Workshop)
15:16:16 <hajons> me to
15:16:20 <hajons> too
15:16:21 <bblfish> but yes, I should put my name down
15:16:24 <hhalpin> hajon!
15:17:00 <tpa> hhalpin: David is speaking again on the social web at TPAC, maybe on a panel with DKA
15:17:11 <tpa> DKA: whatever is best for TPAC
15:17:22 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: mischa to write up Peter's talk on XMPP
15:17:24 <tpa> hhalpin: and Kevin ?? is going to do the Developer Day
15:17:29 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: tinkster to summarize Evan's talk
15:17:35 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: DKA to summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread knowledge of these efforts among W3C members.
15:17:40 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION:Mischa to describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG.
15:17:41 <bblfish> if people from this group want to go IIWS then you have to be there 8:30am to get a slot on Wednesday
15:17:42 <bblfish> if you want to go there Tuesday you need to speak to identity woman now, as that will be a structured day, and there are not many slots available
15:17:49 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Adam to write up Matt Lee's talk
15:17:54 <tpa> DKA: is anybody on the call made a decision to come out that week
15:18:02 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION:mtuffied to put up wiki page about social networks deploying these technologies.
15:18:09 <Zakim> + +1.503.341.aahh
15:18:12 <tpa> hhalpin: TPAC registration ends in two days
15:18:13 <Adam> i'll be at the bar camp and tpac through thursday
15:18:18 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION:hhalpin to make agenda for TPAC Tuesday
15:18:26 <hhalpin> Zakim, next agendum
15:18:26 <Zakim> agendum 9. "Invited Guest Invitations" taken up [from hhalpin]
15:18:29 <hajons> i'll be at tpac tuesday, IIW rest of the week
15:18:35 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets
15:18:41 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: cperey to book global lockbox as an invited speaker
15:18:43 <tpa> hhalpin: Invited Guests
15:18:54 <hhalpin> [CONTINUES] ACTION: mtiffiel to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media
15:18:55 <tpa> … we need to get someone to talk about Widgets
15:19:00 <davidrecordon> davidrecordon has joined #swxg
15:19:08 <danbri> i had a nice starter thread going, ... will ping people for dates
15:19:10 <hhalpin> [DONE] ACTION: petef to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina.
15:19:12 <hhalpin> We should prefer later.
15:19:13 <danbri> hi davidrecordon
15:19:13 <tpa> … Chris Messina is available November 4th
15:19:18 <davidrecordon> hey!
15:19:21 <hhalpin> And Joseph Smarr is next week.
15:19:22 <davidrecordon> just dialed in too :)
15:19:23 <tpa> … we should prefer later as this is in the middle of TPAC
15:19:29 <tpa> DKA: I think we shouldn't have a talk that week
15:19:32 <bblfish> yes
15:19:32 <tpa> hhalpin: happy to cancel that call
15:19:33 <tpa> +1
15:19:33 <danbri> yep
15:19:35 <tinkster> +1
15:19:38 <hajons> +1
15:19:38 <MacTed> Zakim, who's making noise?
15:19:38 <DKA> +1
15:19:39 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: Cancel Call Nov 4th?
15:19:42 <Adam> +!
15:19:45 <tpa> +1
15:19:46 <melvster> Zakim, ??49 is me
15:19:46 <Zakim> sorry, melvster, I do not recognize a party named '??49'
15:19:48 <bblfish> +1
15:19:49 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.773.742.aagg (31%), +1.503.341.aahh (59%), hhalpin (18%)
15:19:52 <lshepard> lshepard has joined #swxg
15:19:52 <Adam> +1
15:19:54 <hhalpin> RESOLVED: Call cancel Nov 4th.
15:19:59 <melvster> Zakim, ??P49 is me
15:19:59 <Zakim> +melvster; got it
15:20:01 <danbri> someone is making clicking noises
15:20:04 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's making noise?
15:20:06 <mischat_> hhalpin: I have put a first pass at summarising the XMPP talk : http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuestSummaries
15:20:11 <DKA> zakim, mute aahh
15:20:11 <Zakim> +1.503.341.aahh should now be muted
15:20:15 <Zakim> hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.303.308.aaee (35%), +1.773.742.aagg (39%), +1.503.341.aahh (40%), hhalpin (9%)
15:20:18 <DKA> zakim, mute aagg
15:20:18 <Zakim> +1.773.742.aagg should now be muted
15:20:21 <mischat_> hhalpin: i will edit it tonight and polish off the language.
15:20:31 <hhalpin> Zakim, next agendum
15:20:31 <Zakim> agendum 10. "User Stories" taken up [from hhalpin]
15:20:35 <petef> petef has joined #swxg
15:20:49 <hhalpin> Oshani - Henry let's do a separate telecon next week to get this done for TPAC and IIW.
15:20:51 <bblfish> the user cases?
15:20:57 <hhalpin> Zakim,  next agendum
15:20:57 <Zakim> agendum 10 was just opened, hhalpin
15:20:58 <lshepard> (this is luke from facebook) 773-742 is mine, not sure where that sound came from as it's really quiet here
15:21:04 <Zakim> + +0797094aaii
15:21:05 <hhalpin> Zakim, next agendum
15:21:06 <Zakim> agendum 10 was just opened, hhalpin
15:21:12 <DKA> zakim, unmute aagg
15:21:12 <Zakim> +1.773.742.aagg should no longer be muted
15:21:12 <bblfish> yes. good. Sorry been taken up 100% on Social Web Camp
15:21:15 <davidrecordon> Zakam, aahh is really davidrecordon
15:21:16 <mischat_> hhalpin: i have also contacted the BBC, am trying to find someone suitable to talk about BBC's reporting of the IranElection's via social media, hopefully I will get through to someone soon
15:21:26 <petef> zakim, aaii is me
15:21:26 <Zakim> +petef; got it
15:21:32 <davidrecordon> Zakim, aahh is really member:davidrecordon
15:21:32 <Zakim> +member:davidrecordon; got it
15:21:36 <DKA> zakim, aagg is lshepard
15:21:36 <Zakim> +lshepard; got it
15:21:37 <tpa> hhalpin: let's move on to David
15:21:38 <hhalpin> Zakim, next agendum
15:21:38 <Zakim> agendum 11. "Final Report" taken up [from hhalpin]
15:21:40 <davidrecordon> I might be mooted though :P
15:21:45 <davidrecordon> *muted
15:21:57 <DKA> zakim, unmute david
15:21:57 <Zakim> sorry, DKA, I do not know which phone connection belongs to david
15:21:58 <tpa> Zakim, next agendum
15:21:58 <Zakim> agendum 11 was just opened, tpa
15:22:12 <davidrecordon> zakim, unmute davidrecordon
15:22:12 <Zakim> sorry, davidrecordon, I do not know which phone connection belongs to davidrecordon
15:22:18 <DKA> zakim, unmute member:davidrecordon
15:22:18 <Zakim> member:davidrecordon should no longer be muted
15:22:23 <hhalpin> Zakim, next agendum
15:22:23 <Zakim> agendum 11 was just opened, hhalpin
15:22:23 <rreck> yes
15:22:34 <mischat_> ok tinkster will google and look into it 
15:22:34 <DKA> zakim, member:davidrecordon is davidrecordon
15:22:34 <Zakim> +davidrecordon; got it
15:22:38 <tinkster> Someone's riding a horse?
15:22:43 <petef> zakim, who is riding a horse?
15:22:43 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, petef.
15:22:48 <rreck> david i think
15:22:48 <danbri> david, there are clippety clop noises in the b/g
15:23:01 <mischat_> zakim, who is making noise?
15:23:02 <rreck> me too, its too quiet
15:23:12 <Zakim> mischat_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P41 (10%), ??P43 (5%)
15:23:24 <mischat_> thank danbri 
15:23:28 <mischat_> thanks
15:23:47 <hhalpin> Zakim, next agendum
15:23:47 <Zakim> agendum 12. "Invited Speaker: David Recordon and Luke Shepard from Facebook" taken up [from hhalpin]
15:24:09 <davidrecordon> let me switch phones
15:24:14 <davidrecordon> while luke introduces himself
15:24:26 <mischat_> yay this is better 
15:24:30 <tpa> Luke: really happy to be here, thanks for inviting us
15:24:41 <tpa> … I worked on Facebook Connect and a lot of OpenID stuff
15:24:50 <tpa> … both the relying partners and identity provider side
15:25:03 <tpa> … mostly interested today in answering your questions or finding what you're interested in
15:25:19 <Zakim> + +1.650.796.aajj
15:25:21 <mischat_> ... also interested in OAuth in activity streams stuff ... 
15:25:23 <Zakim> -davidrecordon
15:25:30 <bblfish> yes
15:25:31 <mischat_> yes
15:25:35 <hhalpin> much more clear!
15:25:39 <DKA> zakim, aajj is davidecordon
15:25:39 <Zakim> +davidecordon; got it
15:25:52 <tpa> davidrecordon: we're very excited to be here
15:26:05 <tpa> … we focused on OpenID and OAuth and those areas at Facebook
15:26:19 <tpa> … we can both talk about OpenID and OAuth have been developed, but with Chris Messina & others coming on
15:26:33 <tpa> … it would make more sense for us to talk about our stance on privacy, identity
15:26:45 <tpa> davidrecordon: feel free to jump in when you want
15:26:53 <tpa> … but when we think about web standards, we ran into some challenges
15:27:02 <tpa> … we move extremely quickly from an engineering perspective
15:27:12 <tpa> … a lot of things done by very few people
15:27:24 <tpa> … teams of 2-3 people (or less)
15:27:29 <tpa> … Luke did OpenID himself
15:27:35 <tpa> … we have really small teams working by themselves
15:27:50 <tpa> … To balance this, we try to think about how to be involved in Standardization efforts
15:28:19 <tpa> davidrecordon: When we did things like Facebook connect, we were really trying to go fast, find partners, iterate
15:28:29 <hhalpin> notes that this continual iteration is not built into W3C right now...but we could recommend that in our final report.
15:28:32 <tpa> … in contrast standards efforts take a lot of time (we understand why, we appreciate that)
15:28:47 <tpa> … but the challenges we face as a company were how to go at this quickly and iteratively
15:29:02 <tpa> hhalpin: one thing the XG is doing is to write a report to the W3C and all member, advisory board
15:29:03 <rreck> lite.facebook.com has apparently cached email messages i previously deleted
15:29:20 <tpa> … including: “here's what the W3C could do to make its process more lightweight and more appealing to social web people, etc.”
15:29:26 <tpa> … we would love to flag this
15:29:37 <tpa> … ie: the process being a problem for Facebook to join in
15:30:08 <tpa> davidrecordon: when we look at OpenID, OAuth, ActivityStreams, you notice that it took them just a few years or less to get implemented by a major company
15:30:17 <tpa> for ActivityStreams, just a few months
15:30:25 <danbri> q+ to ask what level of interop (eg. descriptive schemas) you look for with OpenSocial
15:30:33 <tpa> davidrecordon: we need to get to a point where people feel safe about specifications to ship them
15:30:50 <DKA> q?
15:31:03 <Zakim> -Lalana
15:31:12 <davidrecordon> tpa: and that with each one the time from start to shipping a draft on a really large site is decreasing with each specification
15:31:29 <tpa> Luke: my only experience with standards is OpenID and OAuth but yes, it was definitely useful to have expectations of things being drafted and changing often but moving quickly
15:32:00 <tpa> … ?? … Part of this is a cultural thing, it is sometimes better to do something ourselves rather than violate specifications
15:32:10 <hhalpin> ack danbri
15:32:10 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask what level of interop (eg. descriptive schemas) you look for with OpenSocial
15:32:11 <tpa> … It helps us adapt to new challenges
15:32:13 <rreck> clearly adhering to a spec takes increased resource and effort
15:32:40 <tpa> DKA: if I could jump in briefly, and reiterate: one of the things we're going to try to do here it make recommendations
15:32:52 <tpa> … about how the W3C could be more involved in the lanscape of all of the standards
15:33:04 <hhalpin> notes that this is when privacy comes in.
15:33:05 <tpa> … we are try to list and catalog the things that are done out there
15:33:32 <tpa> … and ask the questions for each, is this something we should try to bring inside the W3C, or next steps that should be done inside the W3C
15:33:39 <DKA> ack danbri
15:33:41 <tpa> … basically, how the W3C could help build this Social Web world
15:33:42 <rreck> yes
15:33:44 <mischat_> yes 
15:34:05 <tpa> danbri: we're on a fact-finding mission
15:34:09 <rreck> mischat: thanks again
15:34:23 <Zakim> +Lalana
15:34:26 <tpa> … people say “how, the W3C will come in and offer me this big plan”
15:34:38 <tpa> … but the W3C is offering a lot of things
15:34:41 <stpeter> stpeter has joined #swxg
15:34:45 <tpa> … Widgets, social APIs
15:35:10 <tpa> danbri: my question was about OpenSocial
15:35:28 <tpa> danbri: do you see a value in bringing ?? and OpenSocial towards convergence
15:35:42 <hhalpin> s/??/Facebook Platform
15:35:57 <tpa> Luke: yes, definitely I was working on a platform when OpenSocial came out
15:36:00 <danbri> particular q, is whether schema convergence might be cheaper/easier than protocol convergence
15:36:07 <danbri> between facebook platform and opensocial platform
15:36:10 <tpa> … at that time we were moving away from the direction OS was taking
15:36:41 <tpa> … at this point things are moving very quickly and I'm a big fan of standards, it's just a question of how to get there, but in time, yes, it'll be one big thing
15:36:55 <tpa> davidrecordon: the questions is how can the W3C develop stuff like OpenSocial
15:36:57 <hhalpin> q+ OWF and W3C 
15:37:04 <mischat_> http://code.google.com/p/webfinger/
15:37:08 <tpa> … or other stuff like webfinger or salmon
15:37:12 <hhalpin> q+ OWF and W3C
15:37:17 <hhalpin> q+ "OWF and W3C"
15:37:33 <tpa> davidrecordon: the other things is what about Facebook Platform and OS together
15:37:38 <DKA> davidrecordon - do you have a URL for that?
15:37:52 <tpa> … people are looking for standards but also for the organization to get out of the way and let them do their stuff
15:38:05 <tpa> … there's a wiki, a mailing list, a svn repository
15:38:09 <mischat_> http://salmon-protocol.org/ ?
15:38:14 <danbri> http://blog.louisgray.com/2009/10/proposed-salmon-protocol-aims-to-unify.html
15:38:36 <tpa> … the problem the OWF is trying to tackle is Intellectual Property
15:39:09 <tpa> … and the next thing we're working on is letting people withdraw and vote
15:39:23 <Zakim> +pchampin
15:39:24 <tpa> … basically it's much easier if the process is not codified?
15:39:51 <tpa> danbri: what you do with the foundation and make sure you have the paperwork, ensure the companies don't mess it all up :)
15:40:07 <tpa> davidrecordon: for those efforts to be successful, they have to have corporate involvment
15:40:15 <tpa> … from companies like Google, MS, Yahoo, MySpace
15:40:35 <tpa> … it is a challenge; how do you involve people outside of the Bay Area?
15:40:52 <tpa> … the social web standards tend to come from the same people but that's by accident
15:41:25 <davidrecordon> http://www.salmon-protocol.org/
15:41:55 <oshani> scribe:oshani
15:41:58 <hhalpin> I guess your talking about the "my name isn't accepted" by the software.
15:42:00 <tpa> danbri: ?? If the Social platforms we build keep the schema piece separate we won't have a problem involving people from around the world
15:42:01 <hhalpin> scribe: oshani
15:42:39 <oshani> Luke: lot of efforts don't come from the international side
15:42:39 <Zakim> -tpa
15:43:02 <oshani> ... separation happening in open social
15:43:45 <oshani> ... Activity streams have a separate spec
15:43:58 <hhalpin> sounds a bit like RDF
15:43:58 <rreck> taxomies for verbs
15:44:26 <oshani> ... FB platform  has lot of intl involvement
15:44:48 <oshani> ... opensocial is also the same
15:45:05 <oshani> ... so even though they started in the bay area, but they've grown
15:45:12 <lshepard> hhalpin: there was a lot of discussion re: rdf, but activitystreams is considered easier to implement
15:45:36 <oshani> hhalpin: what do you see as a useful role of the W3C in this area?
15:45:47 <rreck> bingo
15:46:04 <oshani> ... what are missing around policy, privacy and provenance from a tech level?
15:47:43 <oshani> lshepard: when working with large groups the W3C process is appropriate
15:49:07 <oshani> ... useful to think of "identitiy" and "verified identity"
15:50:27 <hhalpin> so sort of web of trust issues...
15:50:40 <oshani> s/lshepard/davidrecordon
15:51:31 <oshani> lshepard: enable trust using the platform
15:51:52 <mischat_> i met some people which are trying to use your social graph to enable online IOUs http://www.checkoutlater.com/
15:52:05 <rreck> IMHO, peoples' identity are instantiations of a role
15:52:33 <Zakim> -hhalpin
15:52:35 <pchampin> interesting thought, rreck :)
15:52:42 <oshani> ... lot of annoymous things on the Web can be done using FB connect 
15:53:10 <rreck> people are multifaceted right? at least complex people are
15:53:17 <Zakim> +hhalpin
15:53:29 <hhalpin> and who else would be in the IRC?
15:53:30 <hhalpin> :)
15:53:39 <oshani> davidrecordon: FB links and mutual comments can socially verify idenities
15:53:45 <bblfish> cool, that fits with foaf+ssl identify verification 
15:53:52 <danbri> that makes a lot of sense (socially verified, ....)
15:54:24 <melvster> sounds a bit like web of trust
15:54:30 <mischat_> sounds a bit like the web ... 
15:55:49 <DKA> zakim, who is on the call?
15:55:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, rreck (muted), DKA, MacTed (muted), tinkster (muted), oshani, mischat_ (muted), ??P41, ??P43, +46.1.08.01.aacc, Mcf (muted), +1.510.931.aadd, melvster,
15:55:53 <Zakim> ... +1.303.308.aaee, +1.314.705.aaff, lshepard, petef, davidecordon, Lalana, pchampin (muted), hhalpin
15:56:17 <rreck> in real life you have contextual cues you dont have online
15:56:19 <bblfish> yep, foaf+ssl uses little pieces of verified information to make identity decisions, just like Facebook. What is missing with OpenId is the social network part
15:57:07 <oshani> lshepard: socially verified identities using soft cues (mutual connections) which users can make decision whether they can trust or not
15:58:07 <rreck> presenting valence on the attribute rather than a +/- might be a strategy
15:58:21 <oshani> Adam: mutual friends can induce not-intended friendship relationships. From a business pov it is important
15:58:25 <bblfish> q+
15:58:30 <hhalpin> q+
15:58:37 <oshani> lshepard: lot of orgs are working on that.
15:58:41 <DKA> q?
15:58:49 <oshani> davidrecordon: like to talk about our challenges from FB
15:58:56 <oshani> ... privacy and trust
15:59:05 <oshani> ... moving to a per object privacy model
15:59:13 <rreck> me too
15:59:20 <rreck> +1 stay longer
15:59:24 <melvster> +1
15:59:35 <danbri> q+ to ask about hosting user-owned domains within social networks (music.danbri.org vs last.fm/danbri; photos.danbri.org vs flickr.com/danbri; id.danbri.org fs facebook.com/danbri ...)
15:59:39 <pchampin> +1
15:59:57 <Zakim> -Lalana
15:59:59 <davidrecordon> I'm good :)
16:00:12 <stpeter> over time WFM
16:00:43 <Zakim> -??P41
16:00:45 <hhalpin> I know the W3C is looking at this "policy language" idea in this area
16:00:53 <rreck> the relationships on fb are reciprocal but in real life that is not necessarily the case
16:00:55 <oshani> lshepard: for each user we want to model privacy for each different fields based on the relationship between individuals
16:01:22 <hhalpin> seems like some sort of round-trip would be necessary for per object privacy...
16:01:28 <mischat_> ah, stpeter, I could I email you a link to my summary of your talk, so you can eyeball it?
16:01:30 <hhalpin> but the overhead there might be really high...
16:01:42 <oshani> ... activity streams will have different views based on who's viewing it
16:01:47 <stpeter> mischat_: sure thing, my pleasure
16:01:56 <mischat_> thanks stpeter 
16:02:10 <rreck> zakim, unmute me
16:02:10 <Zakim> rreck should no longer be muted
16:02:11 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2009/policy-ws/cfp.html
16:02:17 <stpeter> mischat_: but how do you know that this stpeter is the stpeter who gave a talk? ;-)
16:02:20 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #swxg
16:02:21 <hhalpin> "W3C Workshop on Access Control Application Scenarios"
16:02:40 <stpeter> mischat_: IRC doesn't have strong identity :)
16:02:49 <hhalpin> I know this is TimBL's main research area, oshani and lalana could speak to it..
16:03:14 <mischat_> your IP address points to your stpeter.im ;)
16:03:25 <rreck> if we could standardize on vocabulary it would be a start
16:03:30 <mischat_> like you said in your talk, IRC allows for IP address snooping 
16:03:44 <stpeter> mischat_: heh, true, that's probably good enough
16:03:50 <stpeter> rreck: agreed
16:04:06 <tinkster> stpeter, NickServ provides a reasonable level of identity on some IRC servers.
16:04:10 <DKA> q?
16:04:10 <danbri> q?
16:04:12 <rreck> ?q
16:04:16 <mischat_> yes
16:04:17 <DKA> ack bbl
16:04:35 <oshani> bblfish: Is FB thinking of how to distribute social networks?
16:04:42 <hhalpin> I bet a paper from Facebook on this problem would be very much appreciated. Both how it's tackled and the interop issue.
16:05:14 <bblfish> is there any thinking at Facebook on how to distribute social networks? So that all sites could work using a similar mechanism of trust, but in a distributed way, where I can put my profile on my home page and link to someone on Facebook?
16:05:21 <rreck> q+
16:05:22 <mischat_> http://www.w3.org/P3P/
16:05:27 <DKA> q?
16:05:27 <oshani> davidrecordon: can use FB connect
16:05:53 <mischat_> google seem to be touching in this direction : http://www.dataliberation.org/
16:06:06 <oshani> ... interacting with other social networks is not really straightforward
16:06:28 <oshani> ... need to understand what the interactions are
16:06:30 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas, rreck, DKA, MacTed (muted), tinkster (muted), oshani (muted), mischat_ (muted), ??P43, +46.1.08.01.aacc, Mcf (muted), +1.510.931.aadd, melvster,
16:06:31 <DKA> ack hh
16:06:33 <Zakim> ... +1.303.308.aaee, +1.314.705.aaff, lshepard, petef, davidecordon, pchampin (muted), hhalpin
16:06:58 <oshani> hhalpin: Would you like to look over our final report and comment?
16:07:10 <stpeter> I'm on the phone too, but not officially logged in I suppose :)
16:07:11 <oshani> ... in about 6 months
16:07:24 <lkagal> lkagal has joined #swxg
16:07:32 <hhalpin> in general? re OWF?
16:07:41 <oshani> ... What is your opinion about the W3C patent policy?
16:07:44 <stpeter> I think it would be helpful for each of the speakers who've come through here could read and comment on the "manifesto"
16:07:55 <hhalpin> We will definitely send it to everybody and the list.
16:08:00 <mischat_> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/
16:08:00 <stpeter> hhalpin: cool
16:08:21 <hhalpin> I mean, it doesn't exist yet. In fact, if *someone* wants to take editorship that would be great.
16:09:31 <hhalpin> so people don't say have to do a full patent search or talk to a lawyer just to interact with a draft.
16:09:34 <hhalpin> I would assume
16:09:41 <stpeter> hhalpin: yes, that someone would receive great praise, I'm sure :)
16:09:48 <hhalpin> hint hint anyone :)
16:10:15 <rreck> editorship of what?
16:10:21 <danbri> zakim++
16:10:35 <danbri> :)
16:10:36 <hhalpin> +1 to somehow having these tools in a central place.
16:10:49 <hhalpin> Just wondering if there was something obviously wrong, but if not...
16:11:15 <danbri> i like idea of collab around *tools* as a healthy and de-politicised way for all these different standard-y communities to collaborate
16:11:16 <oshani> davidrecordon: We prefer a more iterative model (where everyone's involved is bound to the policy ?)
16:12:05 <rreck> i think consensus sometimes degrades implementation
16:12:26 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/News/2007.html#entry-4690
16:12:31 <hhalpin> there's the news on REX.
16:12:35 <danbri> ( stpeter, is there something bad in something in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/38482/showCommitments  )
16:12:37 <danbri> ah thx
16:12:40 <davidrecordon> it's strange, having everyone bound makes it hard for companies to participate from the start
16:12:53 <davidrecordon> so dealing with it in the end is nicer, if you don't have to worry about withdrawl
16:13:03 <davidrecordon> assuming everyone is working under good intentions
16:13:09 <hhalpin> it would be good to get our lawyer thinking about this.
16:13:23 <hhalpin> Rigo should be at OpenID summit or IIW I think...
16:13:35 <hhalpin> but yes, "no worry about withdrawal" is perfect.
16:14:01 <hhalpin> q?
16:14:03 <oshani> DKA: from a corporate perspective patent policies are good
16:14:14 <DKA> q?
16:14:22 <Zakim> -Mcf
16:14:30 <rreck> the conversation has kinda left what i wanted to say
16:14:31 <Zakim> -petef
16:14:31 <oshani> davidrecordon: clarification on the earlier point: a lightweight process is preferred
16:14:51 <stpeter> we would have liked to use REX for doing SVG over XMPP, but were prevented from doing so
16:15:12 <danbri> i'd like to see w3c be more of a community of peers, where bad-players get named and shamed by other participating members a bit more
16:15:20 <danbri> q?
16:15:24 <davidrecordon> danbri +1 :)
16:15:37 <mischat_> danbri +1
16:16:03 <danbri> w3c team can't name-and-shame easily, because of the member fees aspect making it tricky to be rude to the paying members; but other members shouldn't be so restricted!
16:16:04 <hhalpin> I just wanted to know how OWF was planning on doing legal differently than W3C,  and if there should be some knowledge sharing on this between W3C and OWF.
16:16:20 <DKA> ack danbri
16:16:20 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about hosting user-owned domains within social networks (music.danbri.org vs last.fm/danbri; photos.danbri.org vs flickr.com/danbri; id.danbri.org fs
16:16:23 <Zakim> ... facebook.com/danbri ...)
16:16:35 <lshepard> hey everyone i'm signing off - just realized i have a meeting to get to, so i'm going to have to sign off. thanks a ton for having us on and i look forward to seeing the manifesto when this comes out
16:16:43 <Zakim> -lshepard
16:16:45 <tlr> re CSS: 
16:16:46 <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/32061/status
16:16:48 <rreck> thanks
16:16:56 <hhalpin> thanks luke!
16:16:57 <tlr> note that patents were *disclosed*, but no claims *excluded*
16:17:07 <danbri> yes, thanks lshephard!
16:17:09 <rreck> q-
16:17:41 <hhalpin> (sorry, didn't mean to go into patent blackhole, but happy to see the conversation going in way danbri's pointing)
16:18:01 <oshani> davidrecordon: patent policies needs to be more transparent
16:18:10 <rreck> right, no biggy. 
16:18:18 <tlr> q+
16:18:47 <tlr> q-
16:18:49 <oshani> danbri: W3C is not monolithic, and there are different working styles in different groups
16:19:06 <DKA> q?
16:19:07 <MacTed> and here we also see the potential trouble with name-and-shame.  
16:19:07 <MacTed> (very loud) "they did a bad thing!"  "well, no, here's what actually happened."  (quietly) "oh."  (but how many people heard the correction and acknowledgement?)
16:19:07 <MacTed> false rumors turn into "accepted truth" with disconcerting frequency -- even with visible public record of *actual* events.
16:19:10 <hhalpin> we could also talk about membership mode.
16:19:15 <hhalpin> membership model.
16:20:05 <danbri> q?
16:20:53 <oshani> ... social verification: based on what you see on the profile
16:21:09 <rreck> well that is a tipping point thing
16:21:34 <rreck> if they are pre-established
16:21:57 <mischat_> danbri the hyper-conntected alpha-geek :) 
16:22:03 <oshani> ... have you considered the chat on the site? or a Turing chat? :)
16:22:08 <bblfish> or even it is difficult to pretent you are someone else, because if you tweet information for yourself, or write anything, it is difficult to be accurate about someone else's life.
16:22:41 <bblfish> Truth is coherent, and life is complex. So both of those together make it easy for friends to notice fakes
16:22:47 <rreck> why was that feature removed?
16:22:57 <hhalpin> I remember just lacking time to fill it in a lot!
16:24:20 <mischat_> right I have to go now, am moving house tomorrow, and have to head back, bye all !
16:24:26 <Zakim> -mischat_
16:24:46 <oshani> davidrecordon: adding metadata to the relationship links for more social verifications
16:24:57 <hhalpin> basically, combining stuff like microformats and rdfa (stuff search engines can find) with protocol exchange for more secure points. 
16:25:05 <rreck> i have another call too
16:25:13 <pchampin> I have to go too
16:25:16 <bblfish> of for authorization and authentication one can use something like http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/sketch_of_a_restful_photo
16:25:31 <oshani> danbri: do you expect to see user owned domains hosted by social networking sites?
16:25:43 <hhalpin> http://groups.google.com/group/open-web-discuss
16:26:19 <oshani> davidrecordon: will it be easy for people to move stuff from their domains to SNs?
16:26:29 <oshani> ... this is not something that lot of users ask for
16:27:41 <hhalpin> thanks david!
16:27:53 <rreck> i wish we could
16:27:54 <oshani> thank you davidrecordon and lshepard 
16:27:55 <bblfish> thanks a lot
16:27:57 <hajons> thanks for a great talk
16:28:00 <melvster> thanks
16:28:03 <hhalpin> just want you to know there are folks in w3 who are very pro-OpenID/OpenSocial/OAuth/PortableContacts etc.
16:28:03 <davidrecordon> thanks all of you!
16:28:05 <danbri> thankd david for coming along, sorry for the huge jumble of interconnected questions :)
16:28:06 <tinkster> thanks
16:28:10 <hhalpin> thanks!
16:28:12 <pchampin> bye
16:28:12 <bblfish> bye
16:28:14 <rreck> bubye
16:28:16 <Zakim> -Thomas
16:28:17 <Zakim> - +1.510.931.aadd
16:28:18 <hajons> bye¨
16:28:18 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:28:19 <Zakim> - +1.303.308.aaee
16:28:20 <Zakim> -davidecordon
16:28:21 <Zakim> -hhalpin
16:28:21 <Zakim> - +46.1.08.01.aacc
16:28:21 <Zakim> -DKA
16:28:22 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:28:24 <Zakim> -tinkster
16:28:27 <Zakim> -rreck
16:28:28 <Zakim> -??P43
16:28:31 <Zakim> -oshani
16:28:36 <Zakim> - +1.314.705.aaff
16:28:46 <Adam> zakim, aaff is me
16:28:47 <Zakim> sorry, Adam, I do not recognize a party named 'aaff'
16:28:55 <Adam> zakim, .aaff is me
16:28:55 <Zakim> sorry, Adam, I do not recognize a party named '.aaff'
16:28:58 <Zakim> -melvster
16:29:00 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has ended
16:29:01 <Zakim> Attendees were Thomas, rreck, DKA, hhalpin, MacTed, +63.59.2.aaaa, tpa, tinkster, +1.617.324.aabb, oshani, mischat_, Mcf, +46.1.08.01.aacc, +1.510.931.aadd, Lalana,
16:29:04 <Zakim> ... +1.303.308.aaee, +1.314.705.aaff, +1.773.742.aagg, +1.503.341.aahh, melvster, +0797094aaii, petef, lshepard, davidrecordon, +1.650.796.aajj, davidecordon, pchampin
16:30:46 <lkagal_> lkagal_ has joined #swxg
16:34:11 <oshani> oshani has joined #swxg
16:36:47 <hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
16:36:47 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:36:47 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:36:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:36:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
16:36:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:36:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items