IRC log of dap on 2009-10-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:17:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
13:17:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:17:41 [tlr]
Chair: fjh
13:17:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:17:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
13:17:43 [tlr]
Regrets: robin
13:17:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
13:17:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
13:17:45 [trackbot]
Date: 21 October 2009
13:17:45 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 43 minutes
13:18:14 [tlr]
13:18:37 [tlr]
tlr has changed the topic to: DAP Teleconference code 3279 Agenda ; please enter attendance with Present+ first_last , also please tell zakim who you are with zakim, aaa is $irc_nicname
13:24:13 [fhirsch]
fhirsch has joined #dap
13:24:58 [fhirsch]
13:25:59 [fhirsch]
fhirsch has changed the topic to: DAP Teleconference, code 3279 Agenda; please enter attendance with Present+ first_last , also please tell zakim who you are with akim, aaa is $irc_nicname
13:26:20 [fhirsch]
Regrets: Robin Berjon, Daniel Coloma
13:26:38 [fhirsch]
Chair: Robin Berjon and Frederick Hirsch
13:30:48 [AnssiK]
AnssiK has joined #dap
13:34:03 [dom]
tlr, we have one person having asked for teleconf access to the F2F, but at this time we don't have a polycom reserved for the F2F according to
13:34:55 [dom]
I don't know if it is still time to ask for that additional equipment — susan's message isn't explicit about that
13:35:21 [tlr]
I wonder whether we could solve this by using skype with a nice microphone.
13:36:56 [fhirsch]
I thought we did have one reserved.
13:37:09 [tlr]
fh, that was for xmlsec
13:45:20 [MoZ]
MoZ has joined #dap
13:50:11 [fjh]
fjh has joined #dap
13:51:34 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:51:42 [Zakim]
+ +039011228aaaa
13:52:04 [tlr]
zakim, call thomas-781
13:52:04 [Zakim]
ok, tlr; the call is being made
13:52:05 [Zakim]
13:53:00 [tlr]
zakim, drop aaaa
13:53:00 [Zakim]
+039011228aaaa is being disconnected
13:53:02 [Zakim]
- +039011228aaaa
13:53:53 [MoZ]
fhirsch: MoZ is Mohamed Zergaoui from Innovimax
13:54:31 [marengo]
marengo has joined #dap
13:54:33 [tlr]
regrets+ David_Rogers
13:54:42 [marengo]
Present+ Marco_Marengo
13:55:04 [Zakim]
13:55:07 [Zakim]
13:55:08 [Zakim]
13:55:15 [fhirsch]
zakim, ??P10 is fjh
13:55:15 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
13:55:35 [Dzung_Tran]
Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
13:55:40 [Zakim]
13:55:52 [Dzung_Tran]
Present+ Dzung_Tran
13:56:17 [fhirsch]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch, Thomas_Roessler
13:56:39 [Zakim]
+ +035850486aabb
13:57:29 [wonsuk]
wonsuk has joined #dap
13:57:34 [JereK]
JereK has joined #dap
13:57:37 [fhirsch]
Mohammed DADAS, Daniel Coloma, Rob Ennals, Arun Ranganathan, Fabio Ricciato, Ben Kim, Jean-Yves Bitterlich
13:57:44 [fhirsch]
13:57:54 [wonsuk]
Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
13:58:03 [ilkka]
Present+ Ilkka_Oksanen
13:58:22 [ilkka]
zakim, +035850486aabb is ilkka
13:58:24 [Zakim]
+ilkka; got it
13:58:57 [Zakim]
13:59:18 [Zakim]
+ +358.503.85aacc
13:59:35 [tlr]
zakim, aacc is jereK
13:59:35 [Zakim]
+jereK; got it
13:59:52 [JereK]
Present+ Jere_Kapyaho
14:00:01 [Kangchan]
Kangchan has joined #dap
14:00:08 [JereK]
zakim, aacc is JereK
14:00:09 [Zakim]
sorry, JereK, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
14:00:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.417.aadd
14:00:20 [Kangchan]
Present+ Kangchan
14:00:26 [Zakim]
+ +035850486aaee
14:00:41 [Claes]
Claes has joined #dap
14:00:52 [paddy]
paddy has joined #dap
14:00:52 [marcin]
marcin has joined #dap
14:01:06 [fhirsch]
zakim, aadd is lewontin
14:01:06 [Zakim]
+lewontin; got it
14:01:14 [marcin]
Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
14:01:16 [fhirsch]
Present+ Stephen_Lewontin
14:01:19 [paddy]
present+ Paddy_Byers
14:01:26 [AnssiK]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:02:05 [tlr]
zakim, pick a victim
14:02:05 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose fjh
14:02:07 [tlr]
zakim, pick a victim
14:02:07 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose marengo
14:02:08 [Zakim]
14:02:12 [Zakim]
+ +0208849aaff
14:02:14 [tlr]
ack thom
14:02:20 [Zakim]
+ +2088290aagg
14:02:20 [Zakim]
14:02:41 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:02:44 [tlr]
Scribe: marengo
14:02:45 [marcin]
Zakim, aagg is marcin
14:02:45 [Zakim]
+marcin; got it
14:02:48 [tlr]
zakim, mute me
14:02:48 [Zakim]
sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:02:53 [fhirsch]
ScribeNick: marengo
14:02:54 [tlr]
zakim, I am thoams
14:02:54 [Zakim]
sorry, tlr, I do not see a party named 'thoams'
14:02:54 [richt]
Present+ Richard_Tibbett
14:03:02 [Zakim]
+ +
14:03:10 [JereK]
zakim, jereK is really JereK
14:03:10 [Zakim]
+JereK; got it
14:03:40 [Claes]
Present+ Claes_Nilsson
14:03:46 [Zakim]
14:03:49 [marengo]
14:03:53 [tlr]
topic: admin stuff
14:04:04 [dom]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
14:04:10 [tlr]
Present+ Thomas_Roessler
14:04:13 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:04:13 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:04:21 [dom]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Thomas, fjh, marengo, ilkka, wonsuk, JereK, lewontin, AnssiK (muted), Dzung_Tran (muted), +0208849aaff, marcin, ??P24, +, Dom (muted)
14:04:50 [marengo]
topic: Announcements, meeting planning, logistics
14:05:25 [fhirsch]
14:05:28 [dom]
-> TPAC registration closes on Oct 23
14:05:36 [richt]
Zakim, +0208849aaff is richt
14:05:36 [Zakim]
+richt; got it
14:05:38 [tlr]
yes, it's 1h earlier for Europe.
14:06:04 [tlr]
ack thom
14:06:22 [tlr]
14:06:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.214.aaii
14:06:55 [Bryan]
Bryan has joined #dap
14:07:29 [tlr]
informal session
14:07:31 [tlr]
Topic: minutes approval
14:07:44 [fhirsch]
14:08:15 [Zakim]
+ +
14:08:20 [marengo]
resolution: minutes for 2009-10-14 are approved
14:08:31 [Kangchan]
zakim, aajj is Kangchan
14:08:31 [Zakim]
+Kangchan; got it
14:08:32 [nwidell]
nwidell has joined #dap
14:09:01 [nwidell]
Present+ NIklas_Widell
14:09:13 [Bryan]
present+Bryan_Bryan aaii
14:09:26 [marengo]
topic: Policy Segment
14:09:33 [Claes]
zakim, + is Claes
14:09:33 [Zakim]
+Claes; got it
14:09:36 [fhirsch]
14:09:36 [trackbot]
ISSUE-32 -- Features, Device Capabilities, their identification, and their role in policy. -- RAISED
14:09:36 [trackbot]
14:09:56 [fhirsch]
14:09:57 [Zakim]
+ +04610715aakk
14:10:17 [Bryan]
zakim, +14252142330 is Bryan
14:10:17 [Zakim]
sorry, Bryan, I do not recognize a party named '+14252142330'
14:10:23 [marengo]
Paddy: discussion kicked off on how features are identified
14:10:38 [Bryan]
zakim, 4252142330 is Bryan
14:10:38 [Zakim]
sorry, Bryan, I do not recognize a party named '4252142330'
14:10:46 [fhirsch]
zakim, who is here?
14:10:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Thomas, fjh, marengo, ilkka, wonsuk, JereK, lewontin, AnssiK (muted), Dzung_Tran (muted), richt, marcin, ??P24, Claes, Dom (muted), +1.425.214.aaii, Kangchan,
14:10:49 [Zakim]
... +04610715aakk
14:10:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see nwidell, Bryan, richt, marcin, paddy, Claes, Kangchan, JereK, wonsuk, Dzung_Tran, marengo, fjh-lurker, MoZ, AnssiK, fhirsch, Zakim, RRSAgent, tlr, ilkka, arg,
14:10:52 [fhirsch]
zakim, aaii is bryan
14:10:53 [Zakim]
... trackbot, dom
14:10:53 [Zakim]
+bryan; got it
14:11:40 [fhirsch]
14:12:28 [fhirsch]
14:12:39 [fhirsch]
14:12:55 [nwidell]
zakim, +04610715aakk is nwidell
14:12:55 [Zakim]
+nwidell; got it
14:13:59 [fhirsch]
14:14:16 [fhirsch]
ack fhirsch
14:15:43 [marengo_]
marengo_ has joined #dap
14:15:59 [marengo_]
my connection dropped
14:16:09 [marengo_]
14:17:02 [fhirsch]
paddy: feature is ability to use capability for a specific api
14:17:15 [fhirsch]
14:18:23 [marengo]
14:18:29 [tlr]
14:18:29 [trackbot]
ISSUE-28 -- [Policy] Requirement for NO security prompting -- RAISED
14:18:29 [trackbot]
14:18:53 [marengo]
paddy: brief discussion last week
14:18:55 [fhirsch]
14:18:58 [dom]
-> Paddy's summary on ISSUE-28
14:19:11 [marengo]
... tried to pull out the things which everybody agree
14:19:30 [dom]
(linked to ACTION-28 - which I think can now be closed)
14:19:35 [marengo]
... seems clear that the requirement isn't going away
14:19:58 [marengo]
... modal prompts are bad and avoidable with good api design
14:20:13 [marengo]
... user should know something is happening
14:20:56 [marengo]
... many questions have been raised on the ML
14:21:19 [marengo]
... One was about asking just once
14:21:39 [marengo]
... and giving fine grained decision support later
14:21:42 [Laura_Arribas]
Laura_Arribas has joined #dap
14:21:51 [Zakim]
14:22:40 [marengo]
fhirsch: suggests to create issues related to such discussion
14:23:02 [fhirsch]
action: paddy to enter issues based on issue-28
14:23:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-29 - Enter issues based on issue-28 [on Paddy Byers - due 2009-10-28].
14:23:39 [marengo]
fhirsch: objections to include in the requirements doc?
14:23:44 [Bryan]
14:24:31 [marengo]
resolution: paddy to start creating a draft document related to issue-28
14:25:01 [fhirsch]
issue: persisting state of user decisions
14:25:01 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-33 - Persisting state of user decisions ; please complete additional details at .
14:25:09 [dom]
s/creating a draft document/creating a draft Policy Requirements document/
14:25:11 [Bryan]
14:25:20 [fhirsch]
ack Bryan
14:25:33 [Bryan]
14:25:42 [fhirsch]
Issue-33: related to blanket permission question
14:25:42 [trackbot]
ISSUE-33 Persisting state of user decisions notes added
14:25:46 [marengo]
action: paddy to create a draft Policy Requirements document
14:25:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-30 - Create a draft Policy Requirements document [on Paddy Byers - due 2009-10-28].
14:27:32 [Bryan]
have to drop chat, will be on the phone
14:27:44 [fhirsch]
Resolution: start requirements document using material from Paddy issue-28, issue-33
14:27:58 [fhirsch]
14:27:58 [trackbot]
ISSUE-11 -- Gathering requirements for FileSystem API -- OPEN
14:27:58 [trackbot]
14:28:24 [fhirsch]
14:28:50 [marengo]
marcin: we are talking about protecting apis
14:29:00 [fhirsch]
protecting apis versus protecting data is possibly important consideration
14:29:09 [fhirsch]
issue: Protecting data versus protecting apis
14:29:09 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-34 - Protecting data versus protecting apis ; please complete additional details at .
14:29:15 [dom]
s/<fhirsch> Resolution:/<marengo> Resolution:/
14:29:37 [fhirsch]
14:29:37 [trackbot]
ISSUE-34 Protecting data versus protecting apis notes added
14:29:51 [marengo]
... in dap we try to create apis for mananing contacts, events, ...
14:30:10 [marengo]
... protecting the apis is not security
14:30:32 [fhirsch]
isn't this a discussion of granularity of access control?
14:30:55 [fhirsch]
14:31:20 [marengo]
... as a refinement of protecting apis we can go further and specify which parameters are valid or not
14:32:00 [fhirsch]
Bryan: BONDI can define security sensitive parameters, e.g. limit access to file location
14:33:03 [marengo]
marcin: will clarify this in BONDI
14:33:45 [marengo]
fhirsch: will it work with things like Contacts
14:34:24 [fhirsch]
filtering with tag based rules, e.g only sms to contact
14:34:39 [fhirsch]
lewontin: Nokia API has conditional permissions
14:34:47 [fhirsch]
... operation at time of day for example
14:35:07 [fhirsch]
14:35:57 [fhirsch]
action: lewontin to share information on conditional permissions on list
14:35:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-31 - Share information on conditional permissions on list [on stephen lewontin - due 2009-10-28].
14:36:43 [fhirsch]
try to do this before TPAC please
14:36:53 [Zakim]
14:37:02 [marengo]
14:37:06 [fhirsch]
14:37:06 [trackbot]
ACTION-16 -- Bryan Sullivan to help review/compare device capabilities and features -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
14:37:06 [trackbot]
14:37:26 [fhirsch]
in progress, before f2f
14:37:34 [fhirsch]
14:37:34 [trackbot]
ACTION-22 -- David Rogers to provide diffs for the BONDI versions -- due 2009-10-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:37:34 [trackbot]
14:37:48 [dom]
close ACTION-22
14:37:48 [trackbot]
ACTION-22 Provide diffs for the BONDI versions closed
14:37:57 [fhirsch]
14:37:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-24 -- stephen lewontin to look into HTML5 security model -- due 2009-10-14 -- OPEN
14:37:57 [trackbot]
14:38:05 [Zakim]
14:38:06 [fhirsch]
in progress
14:38:39 [dom]
paddy already got an action
14:38:46 [dom]
14:38:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-30 -- Paddy Byers to create a draft Policy Requirements document -- due 2009-10-28 -- OPEN
14:38:46 [trackbot]
14:39:00 [paddy]
sorry was that a question to me?
14:39:05 [dom]
14:39:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-30 -- Frederick Hirsch to create a draft Policy Requirements document -- due 2009-10-28 -- OPEN
14:39:05 [trackbot]
14:39:21 [paddy]
happy to share an action
14:40:13 [marengo]
fhirsch: f2f agenda ..... we'll work out which slots we'll use for policy discussion
14:40:22 [marengo]
... any suggestions for the agenda?
14:40:42 [marengo]
... regrets should be sent to the list, not just to the chairs
14:41:20 [marengo]
topic: API segment
14:41:38 [fhirsch]
14:42:16 [Zakim]
14:42:24 [fhirsch]
System Info & Events API
14:42:44 [dom]
-> First stab at System Info & Events API
14:43:00 [fhirsch]
proposal here -
14:43:02 [dom]
-> A proposal for the Device API and Policy Working Group System Information and Events API.
14:44:31 [dom]
(that seems to be an awful long document - I would rather see smaller modules)
14:45:04 [dom]
ack me
14:45:42 [AnssiK]
+1 for making the spec modular and weeding out parts which should go to v1
14:46:01 [marengo]
dom: suggests to keep only the things we are going to implement
14:46:03 [fhirsch]
dom suggests may want to limit scope of the system info to cpu etc but not compass and sensors
14:46:27 [fhirsch]
14:47:03 [dom]
q+ to talk about compass and geoloc
14:47:55 [fhirsch]
dom notes compass is important API but not as a system API
14:48:10 [AnssiK]
14:48:14 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to look into existing work around compass API at geolocation / webapps
14:48:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-32 - Look into existing work around compass API at geolocation / webapps [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2009-10-28].
14:48:16 [fhirsch]
ack dom
14:48:16 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to talk about compass and geoloc
14:48:19 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:48:19 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
14:48:22 [fhirsch]
ack AnssiK
14:48:53 [marengo]
AnssiK: had a quick look at the spec and propose to try to find out what is feasible for v1
14:49:12 [fhirsch]
need to consider implications of amount and scope of work, including interop
14:50:48 [fhirsch]
all - Please review document and comment on list, which should be in system API, what should be in v2, and what should be a separate API
14:51:11 [fhirsch]
action: dzung to revise system api based on list feedback
14:51:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-33 - Revise system api based on list feedback [on Dzung Tran - due 2009-10-28].
14:51:33 [marengo]
topic: bondi 1.01
14:51:43 [fhirsch]
14:51:47 [paddy]
I don't think he's on the call
14:52:34 [marengo]
fhirsch: changes is 1.01 are corrections to callback names, error handling, ...
14:52:56 [fhirsch]
14:53:15 [marengo]
... from a high level point of view it does not add much to discussion
14:53:31 [marengo]
14:53:31 [trackbot]
ISSUE-16 -- Gathering requirements for User Interaction API -- OPEN
14:53:31 [trackbot]
14:53:41 [marengo]
topic: issue-16 web notifications
14:54:05 [marengo]
fhirsch: web apps and ui dap
14:54:08 [fhirsch]
14:54:13 [AnssiK]
14:54:19 [fhirsch]
ack AnssiK
14:54:20 [Zakim]
14:54:20 [dom]
-> Web NOtifications proposal i nWebApps
14:54:26 [dom]
s/i nW/in W/
14:54:47 [Kangchan]
Kangchan has joined #dap
14:54:53 [marengo]
AnssiK: had a look at prior art, received feedback on ml
14:55:12 [marengo]
... link to WebApps WG, they are implementing web notification system in webkit
14:55:51 [marengo]
... who's taking web notifications
14:56:15 [dom]
[this suggests we should take it up - and thus follow-up on the public-webapps message]
14:56:31 [fhirsch]
ansii notes examples are growl etc
14:56:39 [marengo]
... (there's a discussion on the ML in the recent mails)
14:56:56 [marengo]
... multi-tasking use cases are considered
14:57:11 [marengo]
... mechanism to inform the user of an update
14:57:31 [marengo]
... without forcing the user to open the application
14:57:45 [marengo]
... we could take this
14:57:51 [dom]
(there is also discussions in WebApps regarding an API discussing idleness/visibility of the browser context which is likely somewhat relevant to us as well: )
14:58:09 [dom]
14:58:25 [dom]
ack me
14:58:25 [fhirsch]
ack dom
14:58:44 [marengo]
dom: let's wait until next week for a decision
14:58:48 [fhirsch]
suggest we make decision next week, with Robin on call
15:00:53 [dom]
zakim, mute me
15:00:55 [Zakim]
Dom should now be muted
15:01:04 [marengo]
topic: Issue review
15:01:32 [fhirsch]
15:01:38 [Zakim]
15:03:34 [fhirsch]
earlier discussed API design patterns, this action should help with moving forward
15:04:42 [dom]
15:04:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-21 -- Bryan Sullivan to send comments about Arve's requirements for ISSUE-6 -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
15:04:42 [trackbot]
15:04:43 [marengo]
everyone should prepare input for the requirements
15:04:57 [fhirsch]
bryan suggests all prepare inputs for various API requirements for TPAC
15:05:57 [dom]
(please introduce the topic on the mailing list beforehand, bryan)
15:07:30 [fhirsch]
open actions
15:07:55 [marengo]
fhirsch: review the open action points before tpac
15:07:56 [dom]
(MWABP stands for Mobile Web Application Best Practices)
15:08:14 [marengo]
topic: other business
15:08:33 [Zakim]
15:09:00 [fhirsch]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:09:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fhirsch
15:09:12 [Zakim]
15:09:13 [Zakim]
15:09:16 [Zakim]
15:09:19 [Zakim]
15:09:20 [Zakim]
15:09:20 [Zakim]
15:09:21 [Zakim]
15:09:21 [Zakim]
15:09:22 [Zakim]
15:09:25 [Zakim]
15:09:26 [fhirsch]
me zakim, who is here?
15:09:32 [richt]
richt has left #dap
15:09:36 [nwidell]
15:09:46 [wonsuk]
wonsuk has left #dap
15:10:22 [Zakim]
15:10:41 [fhirsch]
Present- aaii
15:10:51 [fhirsch]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:10:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fhirsch
15:10:58 [Zakim]
15:11:19 [Zakim]
15:11:44 [Zakim]
15:11:46 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:11:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were +039011228aaaa, Thomas, fjh, marengo, ilkka, wonsuk, +358.503.85aacc, +1.617.417.aadd, +035850486aaee, AnssiK, lewontin, Dzung_Tran, +2088290aagg, marcin, JereK,
15:11:49 [Zakim]
... Dom, richt, +1.425.214.aaii, +, Kangchan, Claes, bryan, nwidell, Laura_Arribas
15:12:56 [dom]
zakim, bye
15:12:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dap
15:38:55 [fjh-lurker]
fjh-lurker has left #dap
15:39:41 [AnssiK]
AnssiK has left #dap