IRC log of core on 2009-10-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:52:39 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-core-irc
18:52:46 [aphillip]
zakim, this will be I18N
18:52:46 [Zakim]
ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
18:52:53 [aphillip]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
18:53:02 [aphillip]
Meeting: Internationalization Teleconference
18:53:08 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
18:53:14 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
18:53:18 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
18:53:35 [aphillip]
Meeting: W3C Internationalization Core WG Teleconference
18:53:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-core-minutes.html aphillip
18:55:37 [David]
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18:58:47 [David]
Hello Addison
18:59:56 [aphillip]
hello david
19:00:31 [David]
How did the unicode conf go?
19:00:41 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM has now started
19:00:45 [r12a]
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19:00:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.790.aaaa
19:01:15 [Zakim]
+??P7
19:03:51 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard please
19:03:51 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
19:03:53 [Zakim]
+Richard
19:06:51 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
19:07:13 [aphillip]
note from michael kay
19:07:47 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
19:08:36 [aphillip]
addison: working on the timing table
19:08:40 [aphillip]
addison: ping martin about iri wg activity
19:09:41 [aphillip]
addison: set up an introductory call or meeting with DOM Events folks to discuss
19:09:46 [aphillip]
probably our next call
19:09:54 [aphillip]
richard: ask Ian about errata correction of UTR#20
19:10:02 [aphillip]
done...
19:10:19 [David]
http://www.w3.org/TR/unicode-xml/#Charlist
19:10:30 [dchiba]
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19:11:04 [aphillip]
ACTION: richard: ask Ian about errata correction of UTR#20 http://www.w3.org/TR/unicode-xml/#Charlist
19:11:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.925.371.aabb
19:11:19 [aphillip]
all: look at XForms 1.1 PR for internationalization issues, especially "input mode" at the back
19:11:45 [aphillip]
now moot
19:11:52 [aphillip]
since it is now a REC
19:12:12 [aphillip]
addison: reply to Hixie in support of text at end of thread
19:12:27 [aphillip]
all: review UAX#46 draft for review in two weeks
19:12:38 [aphillip]
richard: publish language tag articles for wide review
19:12:43 [aphillip]
done
19:12:50 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
19:13:13 [aphillip]
richard: new web fonts charter
19:13:22 [aphillip]
... is this MO?
19:14:43 [aphillip]
richard: xforms 1.1 is a REC
19:14:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:16:26 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #core
19:17:47 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
19:18:11 [dchiba]
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19:18:52 [aphillip]
Topic: DOM KeyEvents
19:18:55 [aphillip]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2009OctDec/0067.html
19:20:00 [aphillip]
http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html
19:20:16 [shepazu]
http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#keyset
19:25:02 [aphillip]
doug: how do i get the character I want when I press a (sequence) of buttons?
19:25:50 [aphillip]
... such as dead keys (Option-U + o == รถ
19:28:05 [aphillip]
... or perhaps Shift-Q => Q
19:28:23 [aphillip]
... or third case, IME
19:28:48 [aphillip]
... (transformation, choose from lists and such)
19:28:56 [aphillip]
doug: problem #2
19:29:15 [aphillip]
... you write a game, for example, and want 'a', 's','d', 'w' be arrow keys
19:29:24 [aphillip]
... or you want Ctrl-C to be your copy function
19:29:33 [aphillip]
... even if 'c' is remapped to 'h'
19:29:43 [aphillip]
... the physical layout is the same
19:29:53 [aphillip]
... this is not in the scope of dom3 events
19:30:32 [aphillip]
addison: so problem 2 is detecting a physical key press on physical keyboard
19:31:24 [aphillip]
richard: so access keys are not included?
19:31:28 [aphillip]
doug: never been part of it
19:32:58 [aphillip]
... but for example XHTML2 Access... for accesskey
19:33:08 [aphillip]
... handwaves over the problem of keys
19:33:45 [aphillip]
... rewrote that document and hoping to get published in terms of key identifiers
19:34:21 [aphillip]
doug: solved problem #1
19:34:30 [aphillip]
... broke it down
19:34:36 [aphillip]
... want single token to id each key
19:34:50 [aphillip]
... don't believe that a single id can be had for each key
19:35:07 [aphillip]
... key id mechanism can produce similar results across operating systems
19:36:13 [aphillip]
doug: if i have a US-QWERTY keyboard...
19:36:19 [aphillip]
.. and press 'q'
19:36:25 [aphillip]
... when I get 'Q'
19:36:38 [aphillip]
... as keycode
19:37:54 [aphillip]
doug: further level of abstraction from java/.net
19:38:01 [aphillip]
... if the key produces a character
19:38:07 [aphillip]
... then that's key id
19:39:16 [aphillip]
... some keys can have more than one identifier
19:42:05 [aphillip]
doug: text input event might give you same value as key id
19:42:13 [aphillip]
... if you paste in text or are using IME
19:42:19 [aphillip]
... those come as text input events
19:43:05 [aphillip]
doug: also something new...
19:43:10 [aphillip]
... composition events
19:43:17 [aphillip]
... start, stop, end
19:43:39 [aphillip]
s/stop/update/
19:44:23 [aphillip]
... implemented in FF
19:44:44 [aphillip]
... to enable on-the-spot editing
19:50:02 [aphillip]
richard: once you get key id then you do someting with it
19:50:16 [aphillip]
... so that's where an access key or accelerator might come in
19:50:23 [aphillip]
... so when typing in japanese
19:50:42 [aphillip]
... the ime captures qwerty keys and converts to hiragana for example
19:50:57 [aphillip]
... but when you have an accelerator key, like, say 'k'
19:51:09 [aphillip]
... you don't want to interpret as hiragana first
19:53:35 [r12a]
http://rishida.net/utils/keyevents/
19:53:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:56:18 [aphillip]
doug: some things to watch out for
19:58:07 [aphillip]
... list of key ids
19:58:12 [aphillip]
... will change in next draft
19:58:18 [aphillip]
... some have one value, some have 2, or 3
19:58:22 [aphillip]
... some different colors
19:58:32 [aphillip]
... for whatever reason, syntax is U+####
19:58:39 [aphillip]
(U+20AC"
19:58:47 [r12a]
'j'
19:58:47 [r12a]
'U+006A'
19:58:47 [r12a]
The Latin Miniscule Letter j key.
19:59:12 [aphillip]
doug: problem I wish to solve
19:59:20 [aphillip]
... see if character typed was in a certain range
19:59:27 [aphillip]
... meaning block, script, etc.
19:59:47 [aphillip]
... such as \p{Telegu}
20:00:00 [aphillip]
s/Telegu/Greek/
20:00:17 [aphillip]
... want to say regex "is this in a range I want"
20:00:50 [aphillip]
... rather than U+
20:01:05 [aphillip]
addison: problem supplementary
20:01:05 [shepazu]
\u006A
20:01:33 [aphillip]
U+10000
20:01:56 [aphillip]
\ud800\udc00
20:01:57 [r12a]
http://rishida.net/tools/conversion/
20:03:36 [r12a]
\U00010398
20:04:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:04:33 [aphillip]
doug: added util method to DOM3 events
20:04:39 [aphillip]
... converts to some format
20:05:20 [aphillip]
... entity, name, or U+ representation, or a character
20:05:33 [aphillip]
... for some characters, for example 'j'
20:05:48 [aphillip]
... or its Unicode code point string
20:06:40 [r12a]
j U+006A: LATIN SMALL LETTER J
20:06:41 [aphillip]
addison: use Unicode names for characters
20:07:26 [aphillip]
doug: so some people "hey, do we need conversion"?
20:07:53 [aphillip]
... propose instead of U+
20:07:57 [aphillip]
... use \u string
20:08:34 [aphillip]
supplementary planes
20:10:22 [aphillip]
addison: the characters on those planes are real and keyable
20:10:43 [aphillip]
... example: emoji
20:11:02 [aphillip]
... or Chinese characters on plane 2
20:11:24 [aphillip]
doug: we need to hear this feedback
20:11:30 [aphillip]
... need even one specific example
20:11:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:12:48 [aphillip]
doug: please send in a comment saying "this is a real world use case"
20:13:00 [aphillip]
... will point to thread
20:13:11 [aphillip]
doug: is there utility in tranformational utility
20:13:55 [aphillip]
addison: could see use for normalizer of char names
20:13:58 [aphillip]
... and key ids
20:14:49 [aphillip]
doug: so now: key ids can be 'j' or 'U+006A'
20:14:58 [aphillip]
... but plan to collapse to '\u006a'
20:15:03 [r12a]
๐Ž„
20:15:20 [r12a]
U+10384
20:15:21 [aphillip]
(see cuneiform character)
20:15:29 [r12a]
\uD800\uDF84
20:16:34 [r12a]
\U00010384
20:17:02 [aphillip]
C version has fixed length
20:17:08 [r12a]
𐎄
20:17:23 [aphillip]
vs. j
20:20:39 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
20:20:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, David, Richard, +1.925.371.aabb, Shepazu
20:20:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dchiba, shepazu, r12a, David, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip
20:21:02 [r12a]
zakim, +1.9 is Dan
20:21:02 [Zakim]
+Dan; got it
20:21:26 [r12a]
shepazu requests:
20:21:50 [r12a]
explain why it would be better not to use the javascript escapes for supplementary characters
20:22:01 [aphillip]
\u{10384}
20:22:06 [aphillip]
\u{10384 6a}
20:23:14 [aphillip]
doug: make blog post or summary or something to point to
20:23:49 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod/#sec-Escaping
20:25:00 [aphillip]
doug: another spec, WebIDL
20:25:15 [aphillip]
... TC39 at ECMA
20:25:39 [aphillip]
... lot of Ecmascript folks looking at deliverables
20:25:43 [aphillip]
... so maybe fix JS
20:26:19 [aphillip]
... possible that if we prosecute our case correctly, might get JS unified with other escape syntaxes
20:27:25 [aphillip]
doug: so... please provide an explicit comment about supplementary support
20:27:43 [aphillip]
... and also discuss escapes
20:31:01 [Zakim]
-David
20:31:53 [aphillip]
doug: also: please put energy into reviewing this spec please
20:32:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:34:22 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
20:34:31 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
20:35:56 [Zakim]
-aphillip
20:35:57 [Zakim]
-Richard
20:36:01 [Zakim]
-Dan
20:36:02 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM has ended
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Attendees were +1.408.790.aaaa, aphillip, David, Richard, +1.925.371.aabb, Shepazu, Dan
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20:39:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-core-minutes.html aphillip
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