15:47:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:47:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/21-CSS-irc
15:55:22 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:30 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:55:54 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
15:56:41 <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
15:56:56 <dsinger> zakim, mute me
15:56:56 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:58:18 <dsinger> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger
15:58:45 <dsinger> zakim, who is making noise?
15:58:52 <Zakim> +plinss
15:58:57 <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:59:02 <dsinger> zakim, mute me
15:59:02 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
15:59:19 <Zakim> +??P24
15:59:26 <fantasai> Zakim, ? is fantasai
15:59:26 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:00:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:29 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
16:00:35 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:00:35 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:01:36 <glazou> VoIP dead :(
16:01:47 <Zakim> +glazou
16:02:09 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:02:13 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:02:13 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:02:28 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:03:06 <fantasai> dbaron, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Oct/0008.html ???
16:04:27 <TabAtkins> Hey, I have great voip.  Your service just sucks.
16:04:32 <Zakim> +Bert
16:04:34 <glazou> sylvaing: bill ? not even, free.fr, 18Megabits, free calls to landlines in 100 countries
16:04:45 <dsinger> dsinger has changed the topic to: conversing silently and semantically
16:04:56 <plinss> free doesn't help if it doesn't work...
16:05:08 <ChrisL> yes, but not necessarily a "real phone" in ters of the connection
16:05:13 <glazou> yeah, that's the 1st time they have a network issue
16:05:18 <glazou> on voip
16:05:33 <dsinger> dsinger has changed the topic to: CSS working group
16:05:40 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:05:57 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:06:48 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009OctDec/0035.html
16:06:50 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:07:01 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors3/issues-lc-2009
16:08:11 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009May/0065.html
16:09:18 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:09:18 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:10:11 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:10:19 <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think this should be done for ARIA
16:10:22 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:10:22 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:10:26 <fantasai> dbaron: I think ARIA should remain descriptive
16:10:57 <fantasai> [discussing :checked pseudo-class and ARIA]
16:11:56 <fantasai> My answer is that it's out-of-scope for Selectors
16:12:06 <fantasai> Whether a node is checked is defined by the document language
16:12:13 <fantasai> whether that's defined by the HTML4 spec
16:12:24 <fantasai> or HTML5+DOM+SVG+ARIA+something-else
16:13:25 <fantasai> People seem to agree with this
16:14:30 <fantasai> Chris: We asked them a question about ::before and ::after, they don't seem to have responded.
16:15:33 <fantasai> fantasai: so who should respond?
16:15:35 <fantasai> Daniel: you
16:15:43 <fantasai> Bert: Make sure they know it is an official response
16:16:01 <fantasai> ACTION fantasai respond to Janina
16:16:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Respond to Janina [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-10-28].
16:16:19 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0006.html
16:16:59 <fantasai> fantasai: This was raised against implementors, actually, but filed against Selectors
16:17:14 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal
16:17:18 <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's out-of-scope for Selectors, just wanted to check that that's acceptable
16:17:29 <CesarAcebal> CesarAcebal has joined #css
16:18:01 <fantasai> Tab: Seems fine to me
16:18:03 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:18:03 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:18:14 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:18:14 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:18:26 <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not sure how reasonable Anne's suggestion will be for our UA style sheet, but that's another story
16:18:48 <fantasai> Peter: No objections to treating as out-of-scope
16:19:05 <fantasai> Issue 1.
16:19:05 <fantasai> Summary:  Remove suggestion to use \: to match namespaced XML in down-level UAs
16:19:05 <fantasai> From:     Krzysztof Maczynski
16:19:05 <fantasai> Comment:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Mar/0098.html
16:19:05 <fantasai> Response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Oct/0239.html
16:19:08 <fantasai> Comment:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Oct/0251.html
16:19:23 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:19:50 <fantasai> fantasai: Anne suggested removing the entire section. I don't mind
16:20:16 <fantasai> Peter: I agree as well, and I original wrote the section
16:20:39 <fantasai> Peter: It was mainly an argument to Microsoft 10 years ago explaining why escaped colons was a bad way to handle it and that we needed a Namespaces spec
16:20:47 <fantasai> ACTION fantasai remove Chapter 11
16:20:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-182 - Remove Chapter 11 [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-10-28].
16:21:28 <fantasai> fantasai: THat leaves 3 more issues, all on defining things defined in 2.1 but not here
16:22:21 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't have any concrete proposals here
16:22:34 <fantasai> Bert: Point to CSS2.1 and HTML and XML specs
16:22:37 <ChrisL> q+ to ask a point of clarification about :indeterminate pseudo-class
16:23:38 <Zakim> +[apple]
16:23:43 <fantasai> fantasai: For ::first-line (issue 10), I can split out a lot of the CSS-specific stuff, but I can't figure out a general way to explain that we're referring to the first line of a block
16:23:51 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:23:58 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:23:58 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:25:55 <ChrisL> say the host language defines it
16:26:38 <fantasai> fantasai: I'll try to fix that and post my edits to www-style for review
16:26:57 <fantasai> Chris: For Issue 6, refer to XML for the first 3 and to the DOM spec for DOM
16:27:40 <fantasai> Chris: e.g. DOM3 Core
16:27:55 <fantasai> Chris: I have a question about :indeterminate
16:28:20 <fantasai> Chris: The spec has a note about :indeterminate, no normative text, but we have a test in the test suite
16:28:38 <fantasai> Chris: We should either define :indeterminate, or drop the test
16:28:46 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:28:46 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:28:47 <fantasai> and the section
16:28:57 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:28:57 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:29:04 <fantasai> dbaron: Isn't this the result of agreeing to drop it in the past and not having changed the test suite to match?
16:29:22 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't know, I wasn't editing the spec at the time. Daniel?
16:29:44 <plinss> ack ChrisL
16:29:44 <Zakim> ChrisL, you wanted to ask a point of clarification about :indeterminate pseudo-class
16:29:54 <fantasai> Daniel: :indeterminate was not in the original Selectors spec, it was added by Tantek
16:30:15 <fantasai> Chris: I think the tests mostly fail, so I suggest dropping those tests
16:30:36 <fantasai> ACTION fantasai drop :indeterminate from tests
16:30:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-183 - Drop :indeterminate from tests [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-10-28].
16:30:49 <fantasai> Chris: Why aren't references split into normative and informative?
16:31:26 <fantasai> fantasai has no clue
16:32:29 <fantasai> fantsai: I can make that split
16:32:40 <fantasai> s/fantsai/fantasai/
16:34:19 <fantasai> fantasai: I'll have to reword the PCDATA/etc. to not require normative references to HTML/XML
16:34:44 <fantasai> ...
16:35:08 <fantasai> Steve: Is there a section that says what things are language-specific?
16:35:17 <fantasai> Chris quotes section 13 - Conformance
16:35:59 <fantasai> Peter: are all concerns answered?
16:36:23 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:36:23 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:36:44 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:36:44 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:36:51 <fantasai> Chris: So we want to move to CR, how long should it be in CR/ what are status of implementations?
16:36:56 <fantasai> dbaron: Why can't we move to PR?
16:37:02 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:37:02 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:37:07 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:37:07 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:37:14 <fantasai> dbaron: I thought we had already met our CR exit criteria
16:37:20 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:37:20 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:37:37 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:37:37 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:38:01 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:38:01 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:38:07 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:38:07 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:38:15 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:38:15 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:38:26 <fantasai> dbaron: I thought we already had implementation reports
16:38:29 <fantasai> fantasai can't find them
16:39:04 <fantasai> fantasai: If we don't have implementation reports in the next 2 weeks then I think we should move to CR
16:39:15 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:39:15 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:40:08 <fantasai> Bert has links to the implementation reports
16:40:30 <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/documents.html
16:40:45 <Bert> FF 1.5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Jul/att-0046/implementreportFx15-20070725.html
16:40:56 <Bert> Opera 9.5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/att-0055/selectors-report.html
16:41:07 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:41:07 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:41:10 <Bert> Konq 3.5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/att-0054/implementreport-konqueror.html
16:41:29 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/
16:41:34 <Bert> Amaya 9.55 http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/css3-selectors/amaya-9.55-report.html
16:41:34 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:41:34 <Zakim> David_Baron was not muted, dbaron
16:41:34 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/implementreportTEMPLATE.html
16:41:37 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
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16:41:40 <fantasai> which is linked from the test suite
16:41:57 <fantasai> I haven't dropped the :indeterminate tests yet
16:42:07 <fantasai> I'll do so soon
16:42:21 <fantasai> Chris: The implementation report template is awkward, you have to record the same test multiple places
16:43:43 <fantasai> We will discuss the transition at TPAC
16:43:51 <fantasai> Peter: We'll have implementation reports by then hopefully?
16:44:37 <fantasai> Chris is working on an Opera one
16:44:43 <fantasai> dbaron is working on Mozilla (?)
16:44:56 <fantasai> fantasai: Can we get one for WebKit?
16:45:43 <fantasai> Test Suite: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/
16:46:40 <fantasai> Peter: Media Queries syntax from Yves
16:46:46 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Oct/0095.html
16:47:41 <fantasai> Bert: First issue was about using functional syntax for media queries, not much chance for that
16:47:58 <fantasai> Bert: Second issue was to include the parentheses in the CSS2.1 Appendix G grammar
16:48:02 <dbaron> fantasai, the current implementation report template has one link to the 20090603 test suite, but the individual test links are all to the 20060307 test suit (note year!)
16:48:06 <fantasai> Bert: Because that's what he uses to parse
16:48:10 <dbaron> fantasai, I'm going to assume that's wrong and search-replace the whole thing before running it
16:48:29 <fantasai> dbaron, yeah, I guess I have to fix that
16:48:44 <fantasai> Bert: I'm not in favor. It's not wrong to add it, but it's not necessary
16:49:16 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:49:16 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:49:20 <fantasai> fantasai: If Yves needs it for his implementation, then he can add it. We don't need it for the spec, so we dont' need to edit the spec
16:49:43 <fantasai> dbaron: The Appendix G grammar is only a description of what's in CSS2.1, it's not a guide for implementations
16:49:45 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:49:45 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:50:01 <fantasai> dbaron: It's sometimes useful where the spec fails to give a grammar elsewhere, but we should really try to eliminate those
16:50:55 <fantasai> Bert describes what Media Queries does to the grammar
16:50:59 <fantasai> Bert: I'm happy to do nothing here
16:51:22 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Closed no change
16:52:05 <plinss> Topic: @page and the CSSOM
16:52:07 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Oct/0094.html
16:52:35 <fantasai> fantasai: I have no idea, but the @page rule with its nesting structure can't be changed at this point
16:52:42 <fantasai> fantasai: Also we have nesting for @media...
16:53:53 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Oct/0071.html
16:54:21 <fantasai> Chris: I'm concerned that we would replace the explosion of properties with the explosion of pseudo-elements
16:54:41 <fantasai> Tab: There was some discussion of this with Brad and roc
16:54:49 <fantasai> Tab: We don't want the combinatorial explosion
16:55:00 <fantasai> Tab: But other ways of naively doing it break the CSS model for values
16:55:12 <fantasai> Daniel: Microsoft introduced filters long long ago
16:55:33 <fantasai> Daniel: It would be cool to provide a replacement for this proprietary feature
16:55:38 <dbaron> fantasai, I'm going to prepare a revised implementreportTEMPLATE.html file
16:56:26 <fantasai> Chris: SVG filters is being split out into a separate file, to allow other specs to incorporate them
16:57:28 <fantasai> ...
16:57:42 <fantasai> Daniel: After transitions, animations, and transforms filters will be the next feature requested by web designers
16:58:05 <fantasai> Tab: So hash out more of this on the list? I don't think this is something we can resolve on the call
16:58:35 <fantasai> Tab: It's a big issue. No matter what we do, it will be something large and complicated to work out
16:58:47 <fantasai> Peter: Any benefit to working F2F at TPAC?
16:58:59 <fantasai> Daniel: If we follow Chris's suggestion, it would be something to discuss with SVG
16:59:16 <fantasai> fantasai: SVG won't be meeting at TPAC
16:59:24 <fantasai> Chris: Some members will be present, but not the group
16:59:45 <fantasai> Chris: Erik would be the best person to talk to, since he's editor for Filters spec
17:00:00 <fantasai> Deferred to TPAC and beyond
17:00:57 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
17:00:59 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:01:01 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:01:02 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:01:02 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:01:03 <Zakim> -glazou
17:01:03 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:05 <Zakim> -[apple]
17:01:06 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
17:01:07 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:01:12 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:14 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:01:14 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:15 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, plinss, fantasai, TabAtkins, sylvaing, glazou, David_Baron, Bert, ChrisL, SteveZ, CesarAcebal
17:01:34 <fantasai> dbaron, cool, can you check that into a reports/ subdirectory of http://test.csswg.org/svn/approved/selectors3/ and I'll copy to w3.org?
17:02:07 <glazou> glazou has left #css
17:06:18 <dbaron> fantasai, I sent it to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Oct/0010.html
17:06:28 <dbaron> fantasai, so you can check it in whereever else...
17:06:45 <fantasai> ok
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17:21:03 <dbaron> fantasai, actually, I found a few more mistakes
17:21:11 <dbaron> fantasai, a few tests that have been marked HTML-only, I think
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17:55:12 <bradk_> What'd I miss?
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18:03:27 <dbaron> fantasai, maybe the reports should just go in CSS/selectors3-test-suite on dev.w3.org ?
18:03:43 <dbaron> just like we did for the css3-color test suite reports?
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18:04:20 <dbaron> fantasai, or is that no longer a current copy of the test suite?
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20:32:54 <fantasai> dbaron: Arron and I shifted all the test stuff to test.csswg.org
20:33:04 <fantasai> dbaron: Much less confusion and version history munging that way
20:33:16 <dbaron> fantasai, Anything that's no longer the main copy should be deleted
20:33:23 <fantasai> dbaron: already done
20:33:29 <dbaron> fantasai, otherwise I'll just keep editing whatever's on dev.w3.org
20:33:33 <fantasai> dbaron: dev.w3.org/CSS should be empty
20:34:03 <dbaron> ah, yeah, mostly
20:34:13 <fantasai> dbaron: Couldn't delete the directories
20:34:16 <fantasai> dbaron: but they're all empty
20:34:27 <dbaron> fantasai, if directories are empty they go away if you give cvs the right option
20:34:32 <dbaron> fantasai, you should never cvs remove a directory
20:34:48 <dbaron> fantasai, your ~/.cvsrc should have:
20:34:51 <dbaron> checkout -P
20:34:52 <dbaron> update -P
20:35:14 <fantasai> k
20:35:29 <dbaron> so I should make a 'reports' subdir of approved/selectors3/ ?
20:35:33 <fantasai> yes
20:35:49 <fantasai> feel free to make any edits you feel are necessary there
20:36:05 <dbaron> boy, every time I update csswg.org svn, it seems like massive chunks of files I already have get moved somewhere else
20:36:06 <fantasai> and I'll remove the :indeterminate tests and republish the test suite on Friday
20:36:15 <fantasai> heh
20:36:16 <fantasai> well
20:36:20 <fantasai> we reorganized the repository
20:36:23 <fantasai> a few weeks ago
20:36:42 <fantasai> I think we'll be staying with this structure for awhile
20:36:57 <fantasai> it's easier for contributors
20:39:26 <dbaron> fantasai, what's my username for svn.csswg.org?
20:40:07 <dbaron> fantasai, and do I need to use a URL beginning with something other than http: to commit?
20:40:44 <dbaron> (I think I may have had my client configured properly for the previous location of the repository, but I deleted that tree...)
20:42:22 <fantasai> dbaron, and no
20:42:33 <dbaron> fantasai, "and no"?
20:42:44 <fantasai> https should be fine
20:43:05 <dbaron> fantasai, what's my username?
20:43:15 <fantasai> dbaron
20:43:29 <dbaron> and how do I authenticate?
20:43:43 <fantasai> you should have the password in your inbox
20:43:59 <fantasai> I can send it to you again if you can't find it
20:44:04 <fantasai> but all the info should be in that email
20:44:19 <dbaron> do I need to check the whole tree out again if I currently have it from http: rather than https: ?
20:44:32 <fantasai> I don't know enough about SVN to answer that
20:44:53 <dbaron> fantasai, what year was this email sent in?
20:45:05 <dbaron> fantasai, and how might I search for it?
20:46:29 <dbaron> https: doesn't seem to work
20:47:16 <dbaron> ok, I found the password
20:47:20 <dbaron> still don't know how to use https:
20:47:28 <dbaron> email was:
20:47:31 <dbaron> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:11:28 -0700
20:48:25 <dbaron> doesn't look like that server responds to https:, at least not on the normal port
20:48:51 <fantasai> hm, maybe it's just http then
20:49:33 <fantasai> since that's what I sent, then that's probably what you need to log in
20:50:44 <dbaron> fantasai, what do you see when you type "svn info" in your checkout of that repository?
20:50:51 <dbaron> fantasai, http: or something else?
20:51:15 <fantasai> http
20:51:24 <dbaron> nice to know this is completely insecure...
20:51:41 <fantasai> plinss: ping
20:58:47 <dbaron> fantasai, ok, reports checked in
20:59:15 <fantasai> dbaron: cool, thanks
21:01:08 <fantasai> dbaron: btw, I wanted to get hixie's tests checked in this week
21:01:41 <fantasai> dbaron: but he told me you were in charge of that, or something
21:01:45 <fantasai> dbaron: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2009Oct/0008.html
21:01:58 <fantasai> dbaron: So I wanted to know what I should do.
21:01:58 <dbaron> he wanted me to be, but I'm not
21:02:18 <fantasai> dbaron: so it's ok if I just check them in?
21:02:24 <dbaron> if he says it is, yes
21:02:26 <dbaron> which I thought he did
21:02:29 <fantasai> ok
21:02:31 <fantasai> I'll do that then
21:02:32 <fantasai> thanks
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