IRC log of sparql on 2009-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:57:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/20-sparql-irc
13:58:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sparql
13:58:11 [AxelPolleres]
zakim, this will be sparql
13:58:11 [Zakim]
ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:32 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:58:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.312.863.aaaa
13:58:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.276.aabb
13:58:44 [AxelPolleres]
scribe: Axel Polleres
13:59:08 [Zakim]
+ +3539149aacc
13:59:13 [pgearon]
Zakim, +1.312.863.aaaa is me
13:59:13 [Zakim]
+pgearon; got it
13:59:20 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, aacc is me
13:59:20 [Zakim]
+AxelPolleres; got it
13:59:21 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #sparql
13:59:24 [Zakim]
+ +0186528aadd
13:59:27 [kasei]
Zakim, aabb is me
13:59:27 [Zakim]
+kasei; got it
13:59:31 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
13:59:31 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
13:59:34 [bglimm]
Zakim, who am I
13:59:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who am I', bglimm
13:59:51 [bglimm]
Zakim, who am I?
13:59:51 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, bglimm.
14:00:15 [SimonS]
SimonS has joined #sparql
14:00:18 [Zakim]
- +0186528aadd
14:00:33 [Zakim]
+ +7.950.aaee
14:00:35 [kasei]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei (muted), pgearon, AxelPolleres, +7.950.aaee
14:00:41 [AxelPolleres]
Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-10-20
14:00:47 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-10-20
14:00:58 [Zakim]
+??P13
14:01:06 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P13 is me
14:01:06 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:01:15 [Zakim]
+??P14
14:01:19 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??p14 is me
14:01:19 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
14:01:19 [SteveH_]
SteveH_ has joined #sparql
14:01:25 [AndyS]
(probably - zakim is slow)
14:01:35 [SteveH_]
I dialed in about 1 min ago, anyone see my ID?
14:01:37 [Zakim]
+ +0186528aaff
14:01:47 [bglimm]
Zakim, +0186528aaff is me
14:01:47 [AndyS]
zakim, please mute me
14:01:52 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
14:01:55 [Zakim]
AndyS should now be muted
14:01:56 [Zakim]
+ +049261287aagg
14:01:59 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:02:00 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:02:08 [SimonS]
Zakim, aagg is me
14:02:11 [Zakim]
+SimonS; got it
14:02:21 [AndyS]
zakim, please unmute me
14:02:21 [Zakim]
AndyS should no longer be muted
14:02:35 [AxelPolleres]
still waiting for lee for a minute or two, otherwise we might just start.
14:03:21 [Zakim]
+ +49.238.aahh
14:03:34 [LukeWM]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei (muted), pgearon, AxelPolleres, +7.950.aaee, AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm (muted), SimonS, +49.238.aahh
14:04:18 [SteveH]
Zakim, aaee is [Garlik]
14:04:18 [Zakim]
+[Garlik]; got it
14:04:27 [SteveH]
Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH and LukeWM
14:04:27 [Zakim]
+SteveH, LukeWM; got it
14:04:39 [bglimm]
I can scribe
14:04:43 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
14:04:43 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
14:04:48 [OlivierCorby]
Zakim, +49.238.aahh is me
14:04:48 [Zakim]
+OlivierCorby; got it
14:04:56 [OlivierCorby]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:04:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei (muted), pgearon, AxelPolleres, [Garlik], AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm, SimonS, OlivierCorby
14:04:58 [Zakim]
[Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM
14:04:59 [bglimm]
Scribe: bglimm
14:05:00 [Zakim]
+EricP
14:05:10 [bglimm]
Topic: Adiministrative
14:05:22 [LeeF]
LeeF has joined #sparql
14:05:27 [AxelPolleres]
PROPOSED: approve http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-10-13
14:05:28 [bglimm]
s/Adiministrative/Administrative/
14:05:42 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: approved http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-10-13
14:05:42 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Suggest to approve last week's minutes
14:05:59 [Zakim]
+??P34
14:06:01 [Zakim]
-??P34
14:06:05 [bglimm]
... next week might be difficult for a meeting because of ISWC
14:06:12 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #sparql
14:06:15 [AndyS]
Regrets for next week.
14:06:20 [bglimm]
... people will try to participate from there
14:06:36 [Zakim]
+??P34
14:06:43 [KjetilK]
Zakim, ??P34 is me
14:06:43 [Zakim]
+KjetilK; got it
14:06:48 [KjetilK]
Zakim, mute me
14:06:48 [Zakim]
KjetilK should now be muted
14:06:52 [bglimm]
LeeF: We should still have a call. It is the lastbefore F2F.
14:07:05 [bglimm]
Topic: F2F
14:07:06 [Zakim]
+ +1.216.636.aaii
14:07:16 [Zakim]
+SteveB
14:07:17 [chimezie]
Zakim 636.aaii is me
14:07:28 [LukeWM]
q+
14:07:30 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: seems we are a small group, but some people wish to participate remotely
14:07:34 [chimezie]
Zakim, +1.216.636.aaii is me
14:07:34 [Zakim]
+chimezie; got it
14:07:57 [chimezie]
Zakim, mute me
14:07:57 [Zakim]
chimezie should now be muted
14:07:59 [Zakim]
-EricP
14:08:00 [bglimm]
LeeF: we will only have normal telecon facilities
14:08:11 [bglimm]
s/LeeF/EricP/
14:08:41 [LeeF]
zakim, who's here?
14:08:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei (muted), pgearon, AxelPolleres, [Garlik], AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm, SimonS, OlivierCorby, KjetilK (muted), chimezie (muted), SteveB
14:08:44 [Zakim]
[Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM
14:08:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see chimezie, LeeF, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgearon, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, ivan, LukeWM, bglimm, KjetilK, kjetil, AlexPassant, kasei, karl, iv_an_ru,
14:08:47 [Zakim]
... ericP, trackbot
14:08:50 [LeeF]
zakim, SteveB has LeeF, ericP
14:08:50 [Zakim]
+LeeF, ericP; got it
14:08:51 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: I hope everybody has rejoined the WG by now.
14:09:04 [bglimm]
.... if not, please do so.
14:09:05 [sandro]
sandro has joined #sparql
14:09:29 [bglimm]
... There is news for the team contacts
14:09:32 [AndyS]
q?
14:09:46 [bglimm]
EricP: Sandro will take over for me. Ivan will be continuing
14:09:53 [SimonS]
q+
14:10:09 [sandro]
zakim, what is the code?
14:10:09 [Zakim]
the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro
14:10:12 [LeeF]
Regarding F2F agenda - please see and reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0201.html
14:10:16 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:10:39 [bglimm]
AxelPolleres: Thanks from all of us to EricP for the work he has done.
14:10:42 [AndyS]
Thanks to EricP (DAWG and SPARQL)
14:10:51 [bglimm]
... Sandro also joinded the call.
14:11:27 [bglimm]
Sandro: I should be at the second dy of the F2F
14:11:46 [LeeF]
ack LukeWM
14:11:51 [AxelPolleres]
birte, i can take over scribing
14:11:57 [bglimm]
Luke: I was wondering what remotely means for the F2F
14:12:04 [AxelPolleres]
scribe: Axel Polleres
14:12:15 [bglimm]
Scribe: AxelPolleres
14:12:24 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
14:12:24 [Zakim]
bglimm was not muted, bglimm
14:12:31 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:12:31 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:12:43 [AndyS]
US is still daylight time?
14:12:46 [AndyS]
EU is not.
14:12:49 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: dialing into west coast might be challenging. we will see how we can arrange the schedule.
14:13:25 [AxelPolleres]
... we should gather as many issues as possible now, to put the important things in the morning slot, to enable some overlap.
14:14:08 [AxelPolleres]
discussion about daylght saving time...
14:14:12 [pgearon]
November 1
14:14:24 [AxelPolleres]
Axel: think next week in Europe, one but next week US
14:14:28 [pgearon]
Daylight time ends on Sunday, November 1 at 2 a.m.
14:14:40 [LeeF]
ack SimonS
14:15:34 [AxelPolleres]
SimonS: too many issues lately, axel convinced me to stay until FPWD, but will take a break until spring then.
14:15:48 [AxelPolleres]
... hope to rejoin then, will be at ISWC.
14:16:02 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: thanks, paul will continue as update editor.
14:16:22 [pgearon]
:-)
14:16:27 [AxelPolleres]
Paul: have CVS access now, don't see a problem with that.
14:16:39 [chimezie]
Zakim, unmute me
14:16:39 [Zakim]
chimezie should no longer be muted
14:16:56 [AxelPolleres]
ericP: 3 more days to register for TPAC, costs 50$ per day.
14:17:13 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/
14:17:34 [ivan]
ivan has left #sparql
14:17:42 [AxelPolleres]
eric: if you are late, more expensive and unsure
14:18:22 [AxelPolleres]
topic: liaison
14:18:36 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: we'll meet hcls at TPAC
14:19:01 [AxelPolleres]
eric: we'll care about federation, path expression
14:19:30 [AxelPolleres]
simons: I had some chat with hcls some time ago, can give a summary
14:20:08 [AxelPolleres]
... they are split into subgroups. results are 5-6 different knowledge bases, which need to be connected (by federation)
14:20:09 [pgearon]
+q
14:20:16 [AndyS]
q+ to ask that this be described in email
14:20:28 [AxelPolleres]
... will probably need more than what we currently have under basic federation.
14:20:42 [AxelPolleres]
paul: where are we going with federation?
14:21:06 [AxelPolleres]
lee: basic federation is a time-allowed feature, no actual meetings yet.
14:21:14 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
14:21:24 [AxelPolleres]
paul: this is something I'd want to get involved with.
14:21:58 [SimonS]
+1 Paul
14:22:02 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
14:22:02 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask that this be described in email
14:22:08 [AxelPolleres]
... passing bindings between queries (paul pls summarise)
14:22:25 [pgearon]
I'd like to summarize in an email, if that's OK
14:22:34 [AxelPolleres]
andy: would be good to have the requirements written up.
14:23:33 [AxelPolleres]
action: paul to summarize federated querying in HCLS together with simonS in email thread
14:23:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-124 - Summarize federated querying in HCLS together with simonS in email thread [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-10-27].
14:23:49 [ericP]
-> http://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/swobjects/trunk/tests/7tm_receptors/flat/q.rq example of HCLS federation (using GRAPH instead of SERVICE but that will change soon)
14:23:54 [AxelPolleres]
topic: fpwd
14:24:02 [AxelPolleres]
topic: query
14:24:08 [AxelPolleres]
lee: query all set
14:24:12 [AxelPolleres]
q+
14:24:17 [AxelPolleres]
q-
14:24:44 [AxelPolleres]
lee: all documents need to be consistent with the new naming scheme, we do that in the process of applying pubrules with eric.
14:25:10 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/
14:25:11 [AxelPolleres]
topic: update
14:25:26 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/
14:25:41 [SimonS]
q+
14:25:45 [AxelPolleres]
luke: should we also move the urls in CVS?
14:26:01 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: can we move that?
14:26:05 [AxelPolleres]
Eric: can be done
14:26:27 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee and EricP to move update editor's draft to -1.1 URL
14:26:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-125 - And EricP to move update editor's draft to -1.1 URL [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-27].
14:26:28 [AndyS]
(Or remove the version completely in case ... :-()
14:26:35 [AxelPolleres]
Paul: all updated in CVS
14:26:43 [SimonS]
q-
14:27:14 [AxelPolleres]
Luke: small comments, but nothing critical. section 4.1 has a note which might be changed into an issue.
14:27:38 [AxelPolleres]
Simon: think I changed all into issues this morning.
14:27:40 [LukeWM]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/#sec_examples
14:28:29 [AxelPolleres]
SimonS: I changed the note to refer to section 2.1, in section 2.1 you have four related issues...
14:28:41 [AxelPolleres]
Luke: ok, that's fine for me.
14:29:21 [AxelPolleres]
Luke:other thing, mentioned graph graph patterns which weren't there
14:29:34 [AxelPolleres]
SimonS: it is actually there , production 25
14:30:25 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: the "red stuff" (stylesheet related) will be fixed today
14:31:02 [AndyS]
q+ about XSLT
14:31:18 [AxelPolleres]
... which is a result of XSL not being complete.
14:31:37 [LeeF]
I'd also like us to end up with a single XSLT, hoping to do that
14:32:03 [LeeF]
ack about
14:32:04 [LeeF]
ack XSLT
14:32:17 [AxelPolleres]
Eric: if you find something wrong in the XSL, let us know, you'll catch us on IRC the next few hours.
14:32:20 [chimezie]
Zakim, mute me
14:32:20 [Zakim]
chimezie should now be muted
14:33:02 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: you change the XSL?
14:33:10 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: yes.
14:33:20 [AndyS]
Query:: XSLT: <b> <cite> and tables / boxes
14:33:29 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: i see some things removed, e.g. tales not having borders, etc.
14:33:44 [AxelPolleres]
s/tales/tables/
14:34:03 [bglimm]
+1 to Andy
14:34:47 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: we should have one style across all documents.... which is actually a good intent in the new W3C styles.
14:35:01 [ericP]
those cursed systems folks have raised expectations
14:35:31 [bglimm]
I would like to have elements for query and results in examples
14:35:40 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: let us know if you need some special items in the XSL
14:36:06 [AxelPolleres]
topic: protocol
14:36:17 [LukeWM]
q+
14:36:21 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/
14:36:39 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: alex/andy pointed some minor things...
14:36:42 [LeeF]
ack LukeWM
14:36:57 [AxelPolleres]
... I did some global search on "SOAP" and tackled that.
14:37:08 [AxelPolleres]
Luke: some more remark on update.
14:37:16 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/22
14:37:40 [AxelPolleres]
... issue-22 doesn't belong to update.
14:38:05 [LukeWM]
pgearon, it's in section 4.1
14:38:05 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: paul, can you remove ISSUE-22 from update.
14:38:33 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: before closing that issue...
14:39:05 [AxelPolleres]
... I want to have a call where we rush through issues, once we have FPWD out.
14:39:19 [AxelPolleres]
... I saw that simon/kjetil created issues.
14:39:34 [sandro]
(I'm used to anyone can PROPOSE and issue, but only the chairs can declare it OPEN.)
14:39:45 [ericP]
ISSUE+ don't abuse issues
14:39:56 [AxelPolleres]
... we might want to have a policy on that, please consider not adding issues, rather let's create/manage issues through chairs.
14:39:57 [chimezie]
Zakim, unmute me
14:39:57 [Zakim]
chimezie should no longer be muted
14:40:26 [AxelPolleres]
topic: http-update
14:40:27 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/
14:40:33 [AxelPolleres]
chime: no issues here
14:40:33 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
14:40:33 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
14:40:41 [AxelPolleres]
lee: all set, thanks to chime.
14:40:52 [AxelPolleres]
topic: service description
14:40:52 [kasei]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml
14:41:36 [AxelPolleres]
q+
14:41:48 [AlexPassant]
q+ to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/service-description# being online before FPWD
14:42:12 [AxelPolleres]
q+ to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/43
14:42:19 [pgearon]
Lee, I've removed issue 22
14:42:27 [LeeF]
ack AxelPolleres
14:42:27 [Zakim]
AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/43
14:42:30 [LeeF]
thanks, pgearon
14:42:42 [KjetilK]
should the document link to ISSUE-44?
14:43:28 [LukeWM]
which document, KjetilK ?
14:43:38 [KjetilK]
LukeWM, the HTTP Update
14:43:45 [LukeWM]
ah, OK
14:43:50 [bglimm]
Should I add that issue to the entailments doc then?
14:43:55 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: if we flag ISSUE-43 now in SD, it might be confusing
14:44:03 [bglimm]
Ok
14:44:05 [AxelPolleres]
Axel: fair enough
14:44:22 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
14:44:22 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
14:44:29 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: i'm on the queue :)
14:44:33 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:44:33 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:44:39 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: birte, would be good to have the issue in the entailment doc.
14:44:44 [LeeF]
ack AlexPassant
14:44:44 [Zakim]
AlexPassant, you wanted to ask about http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/service-description# being online before FPWD
14:45:23 [AlexPassant]
either put the vocab online or mention that it's not here *yet*
14:45:25 [AlexPassant]
yes LeeF
14:45:39 [kasei]
good catch. should also have agreement on the iri (?)
14:45:39 [AxelPolleres]
Alex: can we get the namespace http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/service-description# online before FPWD?
14:45:56 [AxelPolleres]
Eric: we could put a placeholder document
14:46:03 [AlexPassant]
yes
14:46:06 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
14:46:06 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
14:46:30 [AxelPolleres]
greg: I have just couned that URI, is it ok wirth everyone?
14:47:23 [AxelPolleres]
... is that inline with W3C naming convention.
14:47:23 [sandro]
this is a namespace? for XML or RDF?
14:47:46 [AxelPolleres]
s/convention./convention?/
14:48:00 [sandro]
www.w3.org/ns/service#
14:48:11 [sandro]
www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service#
14:48:48 [sandro]
yeah, I didn;'t mean to leave out "sparql"
14:49:35 [AxelPolleres]
andyS: maybe better to not block the namespace now, since it gives it more weight, we might not want that, unless we are sure about the namespace.
14:49:46 [sandro]
There MUST be a document at the namespace URI if the namespace is used in a TR.
14:50:14 [sandro]
yes, it can say "subject to change, etc"
14:50:24 [AxelPolleres]
snadro: pubrules prsecribe that there has to be a document at any namespace mentioned.
14:50:27 [sandro]
yes
14:50:36 [AxelPolleres]
s/snadro/sandro/
14:50:54 [sandro]
and note in the Spec where the NS is mentions.
14:50:55 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: anybody unhappy with www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service# ?
14:51:02 [SteveH]
+1 to +description
14:51:04 [LeeF]
sparql-service# vs. sparql-service-description#
14:51:08 [SteveH]
it's a little confusing otherwise
14:51:13 [AxelPolleres]
greg: prefer service description.
14:51:26 [sandro]
"description" seems redundant to me, but I'm new.
14:51:34 [AxelPolleres]
+1 to include description
14:51:37 [ericP]
+1 to apathy
14:51:45 [SteveH]
+0 to apathy
14:52:04 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: www.w3.org/ns/sparql-service-description# be it
14:52:07 [LeeF]
ACTION: Eric and Lee to request .../ns/sparql-service-description# and put a "subject to change" doc there
14:52:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-126 - And Lee to request .../ns/sparql-service-description# and put a "subject to change" doc there [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-10-27].
14:52:27 [AxelPolleres]
eric: HTML for now there.
14:52:49 [AxelPolleres]
... anybody objecting to conneg there?
14:53:01 [sandro]
html for now, RDFa and/or conneg later
14:53:06 [kasei]
LeeF, will you change that ns in the doc when you are making changes today, or should I?
14:53:07 [AxelPolleres]
sandro: we can do RDFa later on
14:53:08 [AndyS]
if RDFa, then RDF as well please.
14:53:16 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to update NS in serv. description document
14:53:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-127 - Update NS in serv. description document [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-27].
14:53:17 [sandro]
but 6 grddl transforms. :-)
14:53:24 [sandro]
s/but/plus/
14:53:32 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:53:32 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:53:37 [AxelPolleres]
topic: entailment document
14:53:42 [AndyS]
OK if server side ;-)
14:53:52 [AxelPolleres]
birte: all in CVS, looks alright for me.
14:54:03 [AxelPolleres]
... not sure how it looks for everyone.
14:54:06 [LeeF]
to set access go to http://URI/URI/,access
14:54:23 [AxelPolleres]
eric: you should be able to set .access
14:54:29 [bglimm]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/entailment/xmlspec.xml
14:55:26 [sandro]
I see it in CVS.
14:55:29 [AxelPolleres]
birte: might be a commit issue.
14:55:41 [AxelPolleres]
eric: let's ppick that up after the call on irc.
14:55:49 [AxelPolleres]
s/ppick/pick/
14:56:02 [AndyS]
I see it in CVS. last update Oct 20 15:42
14:56:11 [AxelPolleres]
lee: did you address all the issues we talked about?
14:56:50 [AxelPolleres]
birte: yes, but might need more reviewers, removed entailment regimes we haven't really worked on, just left RDF/RDFS
14:57:03 [AxelPolleres]
lee: should be ok.
14:57:07 [sandro]
7 years bad luck
14:57:32 [AxelPolleres]
topic: overall
14:57:50 [AxelPolleres]
s/overall/overall fpwd issues/
14:58:20 [AxelPolleres]
eric: we will turn around a lot at grammar, how many docs have grammar in them?
14:58:43 [sandro]
weird. the mirrors say http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/entailment doesn't exist, but when I did a an update -d on 2009/sparql it was created for me, with contents.
14:58:46 [LeeF]
Regrets: IvanH, Orri
14:58:53 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:58:53 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:59:12 [AxelPolleres]
andy/eric discussing grammar...
15:00:10 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: query isn't xmlspec'ed yet. is in HMTL, should be ok.
15:00:22 [AxelPolleres]
... more important things than styling so far.
15:01:05 [SteveH]
+1 to aggregates
15:01:10 [AndyS]
+1
15:01:12 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: 60mins up, would like to continue shortly about the aggregate issues.
15:01:15 [AxelPolleres]
+1
15:01:31 [AxelPolleres]
andy: we may not agree, but let's start the issues.
15:01:50 [SteveH]
not really , no
15:01:50 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: almost all include we should include count.
15:01:52 [Zakim]
-Sandro
15:02:01 [AxelPolleres]
... do we have a starting point for that?
15:02:24 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: shall we start with the relational one?
15:02:25 [AndyS]
COUNT, MIN, MAX, SUM
15:02:33 [LukeWM]
AVG?
15:02:56 [LeeF]
GROUP_CONCAT
15:03:09 [LeeF]
SAMPLE
15:03:09 [AxelPolleres]
basically any XPATH/XQuery funct that accepts sequences could be allowed?
15:03:10 [AndyS]
StsveH - can you define it in email? Still hazy on details (prob happy with it)
15:03:30 [pgearon]
first?
15:03:33 [SteveH]
AndyS, sure
15:03:34 [AndyS]
XP/XQ has issues in the details
15:03:37 [AxelPolleres]
e.g. string-join
15:03:41 [AndyS]
SteveH, ta
15:03:46 [LeeF]
STDDEV
15:04:01 [AxelPolleres]
lee: statistics, e.g. STDDEV
15:04:17 [ericP]
my pref would have been COUNT, MIN, MAX, SUM, AVG, but i think a system that has debugging from the start is a very good developer draw
15:04:28 [ericP]
so also like SAMPLE
15:04:29 [pgearon]
we'd be a laughing stock if we didn't include COUNT
15:04:30 [LukeWM]
I'd like AVG to be called something different.
15:04:48 [AxelPolleres]
COUNT seems to be agreed.
15:05:13 [pgearon]
+1 for MIN/MAX (mixed types aside)
15:05:41 [AxelPolleres]
axel: MIN/MAX don't add expressivity, but very useful
15:06:04 [AxelPolleres]
andyS: actually they do add: ussable in GROUP BY
15:06:16 [AxelPolleres]
s/ussable/usable/
15:06:42 [AxelPolleres]
q+
15:07:21 [LeeF]
ack AxelPolleres
15:07:34 [AxelPolleres]
SUM also sounds like it has support
15:07:49 [AndyS]
q+
15:07:52 [AxelPolleres]
AVG might need to be named different.
15:07:53 [chimezie]
q+ consensus on general, expected behavior of aggregate functions
15:08:00 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
15:08:04 [chimezie]
q+
15:08:07 [LeeF]
ack consensus
15:08:07 [Zakim]
consensus, you wanted to comment on general, expected behavior of aggregate functions
15:08:17 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: different naming was suggested by Luke
15:08:19 [LeeF]
q+ chimezie to discuss consensus on general, expected behavior of aggregate functions
15:08:27 [AxelPolleres]
Luke: better call it "mean"
15:08:43 [SteveH]
can have AVG as an alias for MEAN
15:08:59 [SteveH]
a la isURI and isIRI
15:09:01 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: AVG would assume same behaviour as in SWL
15:09:07 [AxelPolleres]
s/SWL/SQL/
15:09:16 [pgearon]
MEAN implies a numeric operation, while people might try to apply AVG to other things... but what's the average of "foo" and "bar"? :-)
15:09:44 [kasei]
pgearon: probably depends on the current text encoding :)
15:09:46 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: would lean towards AVG
15:10:04 [pgearon]
+1 for aggregates
15:10:18 [AxelPolleres]
either both SUM and AVG or no arithmetic at all
15:10:18 [kasei]
oops. that should have been s/:/,/
15:10:32 [pgearon]
I mean, for and "average" aggregate
15:10:50 [LeeF]
ISSUE: Should the average/arithmetic mean aggregate be called AVG, MEAN, both, or something else?
15:10:50 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-50 - Should the average/arithmetic mean aggregate be called AVG, MEAN, both, or something else? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/50/edit .
15:11:27 [LukeWM]
no
15:11:33 [kasei]
0
15:11:35 [SteveH]
STDDEV is quite useful
15:11:41 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: Excel has a core set that includes SDTDEV, does anybody think we should include that?
15:12:12 [AxelPolleres]
... extensibility should enable including these.
15:12:40 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: GROUPCONCAT very much like string-join
15:12:53 [AxelPolleres]
... we use it all the time.
15:13:02 [AndyS]
Name is horrible!
15:13:09 [kasei]
is the "GROUP" in that just to distinguish it as an aggregate function?
15:13:22 [SteveH]
kasei, yes
15:13:26 [AxelPolleres]
... no strong feeling whether it should belong to thee core.
15:13:29 [SteveH]
the name is horrible, yes
15:13:46 [KjetilK]
+1
15:13:48 [SteveH]
+1
15:13:55 [AndyS]
0
15:14:02 [LeeF]
ack chimezie
15:14:02 [Zakim]
chimezie, you wanted to discuss consensus on general, expected behavior of aggregate functions
15:14:02 [AxelPolleres]
... I am not wedded to the name "GROUPCONCAT", aside that would we want to include it?
15:14:10 [kasei]
AndyS, seems tricky without the ability to escape the underlying values first
15:14:17 [SteveH]
defn, from mysql, FWIW: http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/group-by-functions.html#function_group-concat
15:14:34 [AndyS]
escaping?
15:14:40 [kasei]
for csv
15:14:40 [AxelPolleres]
chime: shouldn't we rather think of criteria of what a well-behaved function should look like?
15:14:44 [AndyS]
StevbeH - does that escape sep?
15:14:59 [AxelPolleres]
... than discussing the single aggregates?
15:15:05 [SteveH]
AndyS, no
15:15:12 [SteveH]
not in mysql anyway
15:15:18 [AndyS]
NP - add a fucntion call.
15:15:21 [SteveH]
yup
15:15:27 [AndyS]
q+
15:15:36 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: we aren't even sure yet whether we want aggregates to define single return values.
15:15:38 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
15:16:02 [AxelPolleres]
AndyS: I already have a definition which ties it to a single value.
15:16:33 [Zakim]
-chimezie
15:16:53 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: will the issues we have discussed today go into the FPWD?
15:16:57 [AndyS]
-99 to definition.
15:17:26 [AxelPolleres]
Steve: already a list of candidates there, which we might extend, no definition at this point.
15:17:41 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: let's continue the list ...
15:17:47 [AxelPolleres]
... SAMPLE.
15:17:48 [AndyS]
q+
15:17:56 [SteveH]
SAMPLE is neccesary if we don't allow aggregate values to be projected, which had support previously
15:18:18 [AxelPolleres]
q+ worried about non-determinism (as usual).
15:18:20 [AndyS]
ack me
15:18:23 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
15:18:46 [AndyS]
ah - "non aggregated variables" ??
15:18:53 [pgearon]
what about just using FIRST?
15:18:58 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: axel, yes it is nondeterministic, but it is very explcicitly non-deterministic.
15:19:09 [pgearon]
+q
15:19:15 [AndyS]
A change to design but NP.
15:19:17 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
15:19:35 [AndyS]
q+
15:19:54 [AxelPolleres]
Paul: FIRST is fine in conncection with order by.
15:20:03 [SteveH]
q+
15:20:06 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
15:20:14 [AxelPolleres]
... without order by SAMPLE is just the same as FIRST.
15:20:25 [SteveH]
q-
15:21:08 [AxelPolleres]
Andy: seems there are different assumptions here, don't see how you can sort the variabes coming out of a group by.
15:21:21 [SteveH]
in SQL yu can do AGGREGATE (?x ORDER BY ...)
15:21:30 [AndyS]
MIN or MAX nearly= FIRST?
15:21:31 [AxelPolleres]
paul: honestly, it's a while since I chekced that in SQL
15:22:40 [SteveH]
action?
15:22:57 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: To include aggregates for COUNT, MIN, MAX, SUM, AVG and discuss others down the road
15:23:04 [SteveH]
seconded
15:23:15 [bglimm]
+1
15:23:17 [AndyS]
+1
15:23:18 [pgearon]
+1
15:23:29 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: To include aggregates for COUNT, MIN, MAX, SUM, AVG and discuss others down the road, no abstentions or objections
15:23:35 [iv_an_ru]
+1
15:24:03 [AxelPolleres]
+0.95 (guess we can get around the involved issues, so fair enough)
15:24:30 [AxelPolleres]
Lee: let's close... some more hint for those at ISWC
15:25:09 [AxelPolleres]
... we have a panel at ISWC, Wendesday, Oct 28, 10:30
15:25:34 [AxelPolleres]
AndyS: When will the agenda go out for F2F, was due.
15:25:49 [AxelPolleres]
LeeF: aggregate issues, for sure.
15:25:58 [AxelPolleres]
... stil soliciting issues.
15:26:19 [AxelPolleres]
Lee, Axel to do the agenda by end of the week.
15:26:31 [AndyS]
Tues OK : Mon - not first thing
15:27:15 [LeeF]
adjourned
15:27:15 [bglimm]
Zakim, unute me
15:27:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'unute me', bglimm
15:27:19 [bglimm]
yes
15:27:21 [Zakim]
-KjetilK
15:27:26 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
15:27:26 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
15:27:27 [AxelPolleres]
Axel: suggest we collect issues by end of the week and on next call discuss how to schedule them best
15:27:27 [Zakim]
-SimonS
15:27:28 [Zakim]
-kasei
15:27:30 [Zakim]
-AndyS
15:27:32 [AndyS]
Thanks all.
15:27:33 [Zakim]
-AlexPassant
15:27:40 [AndyS]
Was not me @AndyS then!
15:27:44 [Zakim]
-OlivierCorby
15:27:44 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
15:27:45 [Zakim]
-[Garlik]
15:27:53 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who was on the phone?
15:27:53 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, AxelPolleres.
15:28:00 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, list attendees
15:28:00 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.518.276.aabb, +3539149aacc, pgearon, AxelPolleres, +0186528aadd, kasei, +7.950.aaee, AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm, +049261287aagg, SimonS,
15:28:03 [Zakim]
... SteveH, LukeWM, OlivierCorby, EricP, KjetilK, chimezie, LeeF, Sandro
15:28:19 [pgearon]
ericP, can you let me know when the renaming and other updates are done please? I'll update cvs once you let me know
15:29:09 [AxelPolleres]
member:rrsagent, make records public
15:29:21 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
15:30:02 [LeeF]
pgearon, will do
15:30:04 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
15:30:06 [LeeF]
we'll do it first thing in a moment
15:30:26 [AxelPolleres]
thanks birte for scribing in the beginning!
15:30:39 [LeeF]
and thanks axel for chairing in the beginning :)
15:31:35 [Zakim]
-bglimm
15:32:17 [Zakim]
-SteveB
15:33:17 [Zakim]
-pgearon
15:33:18 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:33:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.518.276.aabb, +3539149aacc, pgearon, AxelPolleres, +0186528aadd, kasei, +7.950.aaee, AndyS, AlexPassant, bglimm, +049261287aagg, SimonS, SteveH, LukeWM,
15:33:22 [Zakim]
... OlivierCorby, EricP, KjetilK, chimezie, LeeF, Sandro
15:35:19 [LukeWM]
LukeWM has joined #sparql
15:53:49 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-127
15:53:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-127 Update NS in serv. description document closed
15:55:21 [AxelPolleres]
sandro, still around?
15:55:26 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2008/06/wiki_scribe/?source=http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Chatlog_2009-10-20
15:55:55 [AxelPolleres]
aaah, forget it, I should be able to fix that on the wiki
16:02:03 [bglimm]
EricP, are you there?
16:02:59 [bglimm]
I am done with editing the doc. If you want you can move it now and fix whatever needs to be fixed for FPWD (although I did not notice any no red tags).
16:05:56 [ericP]
bglimm, roger, write lock taken
16:07:25 [ivan]
ivan has joined #sparql
16:07:40 [ivan]
ivan has left #sparql
16:25:59 [bglimm]
ok (just came back)
16:31:06 [LeeF]
Have any editors made local changes to any of the XSLs? I'm doing a diff to check myself, but want to double check (i haven't found any yet)
16:35:56 [LeeF]
I can't get the documents to render in my browser locally unless all the XSLs are in the same directory as the XML
16:36:04 [LeeF]
dunno why relative URLs like ../shared/REC-xml.xsl aren't working
16:36:05 [LeeF]
any ideas?
16:36:39 [LeeF]
hmm, actually i've got it working in IE now, just not FF
16:36:40 [LeeF]
(!!)
16:36:48 [LeeF]
well, sort of in IE
16:36:55 [LeeF]
there are strings of "Â Â Â Â Â Â Â"
16:36:57 [LeeF]
heh
16:37:28 [LeeF]
works ok in chrome
16:37:31 [LeeF]
stupid firefox
16:39:45 [bglimm]
I didn't change my xsl file
16:40:03 [SimonS]
@Lee I had done some, but they should all be reverted.
16:42:49 [LeeF]
ok, thanks
16:44:28 [SimonS]
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16:46:13 [LukeWM]
LukeWM has joined #sparql
17:25:52 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
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Zakim has left #sparql
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19:58:01 [LeeF]
Hey AlexPassant, around?
20:09:46 [LeeF]
for my own records:
20:09:50 [LeeF]
. /c/bin/saxon/bin/Transform.exe -s:Overview.xml -xsl:../shared/REC-xml.xsl >! gen.html
20:15:09 [LeeF]
entailment is broken, needs access control poking
20:18:43 [LukeWM]
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20:27:13 [LukeWM]
LukeWM has joined #sparql
20:28:23 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #sparql
20:39:39 [ericP]
white-space: pre;
20:39:39 [ericP]
font-family: monospace;
20:39:39 [ericP]
display: block;
20:54:17 [LeeF]
all docs valid, time to start on pubrules
21:04:42 [LeeF]
<link href="http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-WD" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
21:08:52 [bglimm]
bglimm has joined #sparql
21:21:41 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=fpwd-wd-tr&notehistory=first
21:32:44 [LeeF]
SteveH, any chance you can add an abstract to the Query draft?
21:34:14 [SteveH]
LeeF, I think we removed it deliberatly
21:34:33 [SteveH]
it jarred with the fact that it's a delta
21:34:51 [LeeF]
I'm pretty sure we need some sort of abstract for FPWD
21:35:00 [SteveH]
ah, ok, let me see what I can do
21:35:11 [LeeF]
Maybe just one or two sentences that mention that this is a delta? (The SPARQL Query Language is blah. This document defines additions to the language...)
21:35:23 [SteveH]
yep, ok
21:35:25 [LeeF]
thanks
21:35:41 [SteveH]
np, thanks for all the work you're putting into publishing
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