13:49:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dap
13:49:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/14-dap-irc
13:49:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:49:26 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dap
13:49:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DAP
13:49:28 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
13:49:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
13:49:29 <trackbot> Date: 14 October 2009
13:49:39 <darobin> Chair: Robin Berjon
13:51:12 <DanielColoma> DanielColoma has joined #dap
13:52:46 <marengo> marengo has joined #dap
13:53:36 <marengo> Present+ Marco_Marengo
13:53:43 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:54:40 <paddy> paddy has joined #dap
13:55:00 <AnssiK> AnssiK has joined #dap
13:55:45 <paddy> present+ Paddy_Byers
13:56:20 <darobin> Regrets: Frederick Hirsch, Niklas Widell, Dominique Hazael-Massieux, Venezia Claudio, Steve Lewontin, 
13:56:28 <darobin> Present+ Robin_Berjon
13:56:44 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
13:56:45 <Zakim> Attendees were 
13:57:05 <wonsuk> wonsuk has joined #dap
13:57:48 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:58:03 <DanielColoma> Present+ Daniel_Coloma
13:58:09 <wonsuk> Present+ wonsuk
13:59:00 <darobin> Zakim, who's here?
13:59:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
13:59:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see wonsuk, AnssiK, paddy, marengo, DanielColoma, Zakim, RRSAgent, MoZ, arve_, drogersuk, darobin, tlr, ChrisWilson, maxf, arg, ilkka, trackbot, dom
13:59:33 <darobin> tlr: Zakim is buggy it seems...
13:59:53 <drogersuk> Present+ David_Rogers
14:00:02 <darobin> darobin has changed the topic to: DAP Teleconference code 3279 Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Oct/0148.html ; please enter attendance with Present+ first_last , also please tell zakim who you are with zakim, aaa is $irc_nicname ; for the phone bridge 
14:00:06 <darobin> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Oct/0148.html
14:00:06 <tlr> darobin, known problem, we'll need to deal with it
14:00:11 <darobin> ok, cool
14:00:14 <Claes> Claes has joined #dap
14:00:18 <dtran> dtran has joined #dap
14:00:21 <DanielColoma> DanielColoma has left #dap
14:00:26 <dtran> Present+ Dzung_Tran
14:00:32 <dtran> +dtran
14:00:43 <dtran> dtran is Dzung_Tran
14:00:55 <ilkka> Present+ Ilkka_Oksanen
14:00:56 <richt> richt has joined #dap
14:01:29 <arve_> zakim, who is here
14:01:36 <Zakim> arve_, you need to end that query with '?'
14:01:38 <arve_> zakim, who is here?
14:01:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
14:01:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see richt, dtran, Claes, wonsuk, AnssiK, paddy, marengo, Zakim, RRSAgent, MoZ, arve_, drogersuk, darobin, tlr, ChrisWilson, maxf, arg, ilkka, trackbot, dom
14:01:51 <marcin> marcin has joined #dap
14:01:58 <AnssiK> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:02:00 <arve_> I am on the call at least
14:02:01 <darobin> arve_, it's a bug
14:02:06 <richt> Present+ Richard_Tibbett
14:02:15 <darobin> we need an "RRSAgent who's here?"
14:02:17 <marcin> Present+ Marcin_Hanclik
14:02:32 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #dap
14:02:46 <Kangchan> Kangchan has joined #dap
14:03:02 <wonsuk> Present+ WonSuk_Lee
14:03:36 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
14:03:36 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
14:03:44 <tlr> zakim, I am thomas
14:03:44 <Zakim> sorry, tlr, I do not see a party named 'thomas'
14:03:46 <darobin> can anyone hear me?
14:03:57 <paddy> I can hear
14:04:05 <darobin> arve_, are you on the call?
14:04:58 <darobin> Scribe: Bryan Sullivan
14:04:59 <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
14:05:02 <darobin> ScribeNick: Bryan 
14:05:23 <darobin> Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection
14:06:15 <darobin> zakim, who's making noise?
14:06:16 <Bryan> arve: tpac plans for a privacy related panel, what does it mean to be privacy aware 
14:06:21 <Kangchan> Present+ Kangchan
14:06:23 <darobin> s/arve/tlr/
14:06:23 <hendry> hendry has joined #dap
14:06:23 <arve_> whoever got on last needs to mute
14:06:25 <Zakim> darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P28 (15%), ??P32 (5%), ??P35 (90%)
14:06:27 <drogersuk> great, white noise
14:06:29 <tlr> zakim, drop ??P35
14:06:29 <Zakim> sorry, tlr, I do not see a party named '??P35'
14:06:32 <tlr> *ARGH*
14:06:36 <darobin> Zakim, mute ??P35
14:06:36 <Zakim> sorry, darobin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P35
14:06:40 <arve_> zakim, mute P35
14:06:40 <Zakim> sorry, arve_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P35
14:06:44 <arve_> zakim, mute ??P35
14:06:44 <Zakim> sorry, arve_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to ??P35
14:06:52 <darobin> bloody hell
14:07:50 <drogersuk> will dial back in when you are sorted
14:08:35 <Bryan> arve: the scope of policy related work, very broadly, to drill down on the intellectual side of the topic
14:08:40 <darobin> s/arve/tlr/
14:08:51 <Bryan> arve: just calling to attention the plans to have a discussion
14:08:55 <Laura_Arribas> Laura_Arribas has joined #dap
14:09:03 <darobin> Topic: Minutes approval
14:09:09 <darobin> s/arve/tlr/
14:09:26 <Zakim> bot restart in 2 minutes to recover bridge state
14:09:57 <darobin> http://www.w3.org/mid/6CC33B25-9534-4030-8445-F0CC02566944@nokia.com
14:10:17 <darobin> Topic: Editorial Updates
14:10:18 <Bryan> robin: minutes are approved
14:10:40 <darobin> http://www.w3.org/TR/dap-api-reqs/
14:11:01 <Bryan> robin: api requirements should be available tomorrow at the address shown
14:11:12 <Bryan> robin: any other edits made last week?
14:11:23 <Bryan> robin: none so far
14:11:26 <darobin> Topic: Policy Segment
14:11:55 <Bryan> robin: some discussions this week about prompting, any comments on where the discussion is and next steps
14:11:57 <paddy> q+
14:12:02 <richt> q+ security prompting
14:12:56 <tlr> q+
14:13:14 <Bryan> paddy: a wide range of starkly differing views.  prompting is inescapapable given the wide range of apps expected, and unfamiliarity with the app, and the need to make decisions
14:13:45 <tlr> agreement: "it's difficult"
14:13:46 <Bryan> paddy: good questions about when prompts should occur, e.g. re lifecycle and obstrusiveness
14:14:18 <Bryan> paddy: seems agreement on modality, and that we should stay away from user experience proscription
14:14:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dap
14:14:24 <tlr> zakim, this is dap
14:14:24 <Zakim> ok, tlr; that matches UW_DAP()10:00AM
14:14:27 <tlr> q+ richt, tlr
14:14:34 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #dap
14:14:45 <Zakim> - +1.242.860.aakk
14:14:47 <Bryan> paddy: but only concrete conclusion is the non-modal prompt expectation
14:14:53 <darobin> ack richt 
14:14:55 <Zakim> - +47.23.69.aadd
14:15:10 <Ralph> Ralph has left #dap
14:15:15 <darobin> q+ to talk about UI terminology
14:15:22 <Zakim> +[ETRI]
14:15:23 <Bryan> richard: agrees, non-modal is better. we should use the term dialog instead of prompt. the concept of user opt-in should be defined.
14:15:32 <Kangchan> zakim, [ETRI] is Kangchan
14:15:32 <Zakim> +Kangchan; got it
14:15:38 <marengo> zakim, I am +39.011.228.aabb
14:15:38 <Zakim> +marengo; got it
14:15:43 <Laura_Arribas> zakim, +0777541aall is Laura_Arribas
14:15:43 <Zakim> +Laura_Arribas; got it
14:16:25 <dtran> zakim, aagg is Dzung_Tran
14:16:25 <Zakim> +Dzung_Tran; got it
14:16:33 <Bryan> richard: user needs to have an opt-in option, but before that the user should expect prompts. Ian made a good comment, about difficulty addressing all cases. But implicit prompting is usedful, e.g. based upon platform filesystem functions.
14:16:48 <tlr> ack thom
14:17:40 <darobin> ack tlr
14:17:50 <Bryan> thomas: leaning the same direction; we know a lot that doesn't work, some that do work, e.g. re implicit concepts such as pushing a button on a camera. non-modalness is important. 
14:18:10 <darobin> ack me
14:18:10 <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to talk about UI terminology
14:18:13 <tlr> zakim, mute me
14:18:13 <Zakim> Thomas should now be muted
14:18:23 <Bryan> thomas: question about what info is available to the user-agent about the user's intent
14:18:40 <darobin> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria.php
14:18:59 <marengo> zakim, mute me
14:18:59 <Zakim> marengo should now be muted
14:19:00 <Bryan> robin: terminonology may consider aria for terminology, see link
14:19:26 <paddy> I can do that
14:19:27 <Bryan> robin: hearing support for the general ideas, would someone write up the agreement
14:19:40 <Bryan> robin: paddy has the action to do it
14:19:46 <darobin> ACTION: Paddy to document the output of the prompting discussion
14:19:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Document the output of the prompting discussion [on Paddy Byers - due 2009-10-21].
14:19:50 <darobin> q?
14:20:33 <Bryan> robin: paddy created a new issue
14:20:44 <darobin> ISSUE-32
14:20:57 <darobin> s/ISSUE-32//
14:21:00 <darobin> Topic: ISSUE-32
14:21:12 <Bryan> paddy: question was having a policy governing access to resources, how to id the resources portably in ways meaningful to policy authors
14:21:59 <Bryan> paddy: have written down some thoughts and terminology to get the discussion started, e.g. "device capability" which is definable independent of the API's used to get access to the capability
14:22:17 <Bryan> paddy: next interfaces, which are directly related to the API's accessing the resources
14:22:47 <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aann
14:22:51 <Bryan> paddy: next the "feature" which are the API functional capabilities
14:22:53 <arve_> zakim, aann is me
14:22:53 <Zakim> +arve_; got it
14:23:15 <Bryan> paddy: we have had discussion on using IRI to id the resources
14:23:18 <darobin> Regrets+ Daniel Coloma
14:23:28 <Marcos> Marcos has joined #dap
14:23:46 <Bryan> paddy: 2nd question is whether need to id the capabilities themselves, to allow API-independent policies
14:23:56 <tlr> excellent point
14:24:17 <Bryan> paddy: so access to a capability is controllable independent of the API, which is what BONDI supports
14:24:47 <Bryan> paddy: propose to discuss / validate the use cases and decide how to address this for DAP policy
14:24:52 <Bryan> robin: any reactions now?
14:25:52 <Bryan> robin: now this is started, input is requested and discussion. unsure how the policy docs will be organized, but we could paste some of this into a document for review. we will discuss this when Fredric is here.
14:26:04 <Bryan> robin: anything else on policy?
14:26:06 <darobin> Topic: API Segment
14:26:48 <Bryan> robin: item discussed is where do we want the API to hang off of. some inputs, e.g. we may not want to define it immediately.
14:27:16 <Bryan> robin: so I recommend to wait for more API's to be defined then return to the hanging off discussion
14:28:36 <arve> arve has joined #dap
14:29:04 <Bryan1> Bryan1 has joined #dap
14:29:19 <Bryan1> scribenick bryan1
14:29:21 <darobin> arve: only just got back, will look into FS ASAP
14:29:53 <Bryan1> scribe: Bryan1
14:30:00 <darobin> ScribeNick: Bryan1 
14:30:07 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #dap
14:30:24 <darobin> robin: will continue contacts discussion on list
14:30:38 <darobin> richt: will contact robin offline to start putting things inside the calendar spc
14:31:14 <Bryan1> robin: a lot of discussion on scoping, sensors, etc. anything to discuss now?
14:31:34 <Bryan1> robin: will wait for the concrete input and take it from there
14:31:43 <darobin> richt: I will join the editorial pool for APIs
14:31:49 <Bryan1> richard: will join the editor pool
14:32:02 <darobin> Topic: AOB
14:32:03 <richt> q+
14:32:11 <Bryan1> robin: anything else on APany other business
14:32:38 <Bryan1> richard: "meta-discussion" on the list. any guidelines for list discussion?
14:33:21 <Bryan1> robin: discussion about how to conduct discussion. we will make easier progress if we edit and them consider the edits, rather than discuss too long up-front
14:33:39 <Bryan1> robin: sometimes its better to dive in and assess where we are periodically
14:34:02 <Bryan1> robin: it would be good to have some concrete work done before the F2F, and take a step back at the F2F
14:35:05 <Bryan1> david: agree, key concern raised by me is that the charter has 10 API's. we need to concentrate on those. new ideas are expected, but the three inputs so far focus on a set of API's
14:35:27 <Bryan1> david: being royalty-free, we should focus on them
14:36:04 <Bryan1> robin: there is some gray area due to vagueness in the charter, with wiggle room expected. but we need to wait for concrete proposals and consider IPR issues as they arise
14:36:18 <darobin> s/gray/grey/
14:36:22 <Bryan1> robin: AOB?
14:36:35 <Zakim> -Laura_Arribas
14:36:36 <Zakim> -Thomas
14:36:38 <Zakim> - +035850486aaee
14:36:39 <Zakim> -??P20
14:36:39 <Zakim> - +0208849aaff
14:36:40 <Zakim> - +035850486aacc
14:36:41 <Zakim> -marengo
14:36:42 <Zakim> -Dzung_Tran
14:36:42 <Zakim> -??P28
14:36:44 <Zakim> -arve_
14:36:46 <Zakim> -Kangchan
14:36:48 <Zakim> - +1.617.588.aaaa
14:36:50 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
14:36:51 <Zakim> - +49.208.4.aaii
14:36:54 <Zakim> -??P33
14:36:54 <darobin> thanks Bryan
14:36:56 <Zakim> - +46.1.08.01.aajj
14:36:57 <Zakim> - +0472369aahh
14:37:01 <darobin> RRSAgent: make minutes
14:37:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/14-dap-minutes.html darobin
14:37:13 <Bryan1> sure
14:38:14 <marcin> marcin has left #dap
14:38:46 <maxf> me! me!
14:38:47 <dtran> robin, can I get a Wave invite?
14:40:46 <darobin> maxf: invite sent (may not arrive immediately)
14:41:03 <darobin> dtran, richt: I need the email address you use for your google account
14:41:08 <maxf> thanks darobin!
14:41:17 <Marcos> darobin: emmememememememem
14:41:45 <dtran> dzungductran@gmail.com
14:41:49 <Marcos> ------------------------------------------------------------
14:42:08 <dtran> thank you
14:42:40 <darobin> Marcos: what's your Google accont email?
14:42:52 <Marcos> darobin: marcosscaceres@gmail.com
14:44:01 <darobin> all invited, might not reach you immediately
14:44:03 <darobin> 2 left!
14:44:10 <drogersuk> beers all around for darobin
14:44:16 <darobin> wheeeee!
14:44:20 <Marcos> darobin: barbara would love one 
14:44:40 <darobin> I need the same info
14:44:55 <Marcos> will PM
14:45:12 <ilkka> I'd like to test it too, ilkkao@gmail.com
14:45:35 <darobin> barbara and ilkka added — that's all I'm out!
14:45:45 <arve> arve has joined #dap
14:46:01 <ilkka> darobin: thanks
14:47:02 <darobin> now all I have to do is figure out how the damn thing works :)
14:48:12 <arve> arve has left #dap
14:53:14 <richt> Has anyone received their Wave invite? Perhaps good things come to those who wait...
14:54:31 <wonsuk> wonsuk has left #dap
14:54:39 <darobin> richt: the invite interface says they may not reach you immediately
14:54:53 <darobin> I think it adds you to a list, and they do batches once in a while
14:55:43 <richt> :-) ok. over and out.
14:55:46 <richt> richt has left #dap
15:16:30 <hendry> hendry has left #dap
15:17:30 <hendry> hendry has joined #dap
15:17:33 <hendry> http://easiertounderstandthanwave.com/
15:20:56 <hendry> hendry has left #dap
15:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, +47.23.69.aamm, in UW_DAP()10:00AM
15:35:01 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:35:05 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.588.aaaa, +39.011.228.aabb, +035850486aacc, +47.23.69.aadd, +035850486aaee, +0208849aaff, Bryan_Sullivan, +1.503.521.aagg, +0472369aahh, +49.208.4.aaii,
15:35:10 <Zakim> ... +46.1.08.01.aajj, Thomas, +1.242.860.aakk, +47.23.69.aamm, Kangchan, marengo, Laura_Arribas, Dzung_Tran, +47.23.69.aann, arve_
16:28:17 <AnssiK> AnssiK has left #dap
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