15:12:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:12:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/14-CSS-irc
15:12:59 <glazou_busy> Zakim, this will be Style
15:12:59 <Zakim> ok, glazou_busy; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 48 minutes
15:13:06 <glazou_busy> Zakim, code ?
15:13:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou_busy
15:42:14 <glazou> hmmm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/ does not work for me...
15:42:49 <anne2> I can't call in today it seems
15:43:25 <anne2> I worked a few days on the CSSOM, but not a lot to report just yet: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/
15:43:41 <glazou> ok
15:43:59 <glazou> OMG lists.w3.org is so slow I get byte by byte
15:44:12 <anne2> oops
15:44:17 <glazou> is that caused by the new design ?
15:44:25 <glazou> people visiting too much the site to see it?
15:44:28 <glazou> hmmm
15:44:39 <glazou> anne, can you reach the url above ?
15:45:29 <glazou> anne2: or better can you do me favor ? send me back by email this week's agenda ; my mac is being repaired and I don't have the agenda and cannot reach it on w3.org :(
15:45:47 <TabAtkins> I can get to it fine, glazou.
15:45:56 <glazou> uuu
15:45:58 <glazou> weird
15:46:06 <glazou> anyway can you send me back the email please ?
15:46:20 <TabAtkins> Yes.
15:46:23 <glazou> thanks
15:47:04 <TabAtkins> daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com?
15:47:16 <glazou> or daniel@glazman.org
15:47:24 <glazou> thanks TabAtkins
15:47:34 <anne2> ah, my work here is done :)
15:47:54 <glazou> eh
15:47:55 <TabAtkins> Sent to the former, since it's what came up when gmail was autocompleting.
15:48:10 <glazou> np
15:48:12 <glazou> thanks again
15:49:15 <TabAtkins> np
15:53:49 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
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15:56:00 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:07 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaaa
15:57:13 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
15:57:50 <plinss> zakim, +1.858.216 is me
15:57:50 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
15:57:53 <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aaaa
15:58:15 <Zakim> + +95089aacc
15:58:17 <bradk> zakim, 1.650.766 is me
15:58:17 <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.766'
15:58:28 <glazou> Zakim, aacc is me
15:58:28 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:58:42 <bradk> Zakim, +1.650.766.5776 is me
15:58:42 <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650.766.5776'
15:59:02 <bradk> zakim, +1.650.766.aaaa is me
15:59:02 <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650.766.aaaa'
15:59:04 <bradk> hmm
15:59:20 <bradk> probably cause my phone died
15:59:44 <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aadd
15:59:53 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaee
16:00:02 <TabAtkins> Zakim, aadd is me.
16:00:02 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:00:16 <bradk> Zakim, +1.650.766.aaaa is me
16:00:16 <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '+1.650.766.aaaa'
16:00:38 <bradk> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:38 <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:01:35 <bradk> zakim, 1.650.766 is me
16:01:35 <Zakim> sorry, bradk, I do not recognize a party named '1.650.766'
16:01:48 <bradk> I give up
16:01:50 <Zakim> +Bert
16:01:54 <TabAtkins> Zakim, who's here?
16:01:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, glazou, TabAtkins, +1.650.766.aaee, Bert
16:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see bradk, oyvind, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, MikeSmith, TabAtkins, myakura, krijnh, arronei, karl, fantasai, anne2, shepazu, szilles, plinss, Hixie, trackbot, Bert
16:02:06 <TabAtkins> There's your problem, brad.
16:02:14 <bradk> Zakim, aaee is me
16:02:14 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:02:25 <bradk> Finally.
16:02:43 <CesarAcebal> CesarAcebal has joined #css
16:02:47 <TabAtkins> Ah, I see.  On your last try to call in it finally gave you a different code.
16:02:51 <TabAtkins> I was confused.
16:02:51 <bradk> Thanks, TJ
16:02:55 <TabAtkins> np
16:02:57 <bradk> Yeah, me too.
16:04:20 <Zakim> + +34.60.940.aaff
16:04:37 <glazou> Zakim, aaff is CesarAcebal
16:04:37 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
16:05:32 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
16:05:53 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:06:17 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal
16:06:29 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:06:50 <glazou> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:07:10 <TabAtkins> glazou: Extra action items?  Bert, did you send a message?
16:07:37 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
16:07:39 <TabAtkins> Bert: Sent 2 items.  Background&Borders are scheduled for LC tomorrow.  Also, what is happening with Multicol?  Are we discussing comments?  Do we need Hakon for that?
16:07:59 <TabAtkins> glazou: Yes, need Hakon.  I think we still have on the agenda a note about floats in multicol.  So we're probably not ready yet.
16:08:04 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:08:07 <TabAtkins> glazou: But we may rely on Hakon to know precisely.
16:08:21 <TabAtkins> Bert: Was just wondering if we have an overview of received comments besides the float thing.
16:08:27 <TabAtkins> glazou: suggest rely on Hakon to summarize for us.
16:08:34 <TabAtkins> glazou: No extra action items.
16:08:44 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:08:50 <TabAtkins> glazou: First item on agenda is items for TPAC meeting.
16:08:52 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2009
16:08:55 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing, arronei
16:08:55 <Zakim> +sylvaing, arronei; got it
16:09:03 <CesarAcebal> It seems that my Skype iPhone application is having some problems today. I'll try again, this time from my computer.
16:09:11 <TabAtkins> glazou: Need proposals as soon as possible so we can schedule things.
16:09:33 <TabAtkins> glazou: Request from dsinger to have someone from CSSWG to attend HTMLWG Accessiblitity meeting on Sunday before TPAC.
16:09:42 <ChrisL> I will be at that workshop
16:09:45 <Bert> Stanford
16:09:45 <ChrisL> stanford
16:09:52 <TabAtkins> glazou: Located in Stanford, not the hotel.
16:10:02 <TabAtkins> glazou: Asked Dave to reply on information for that.
16:10:14 <TabAtkins> glazou: I'll be able to attend in the morning, but probably not in the afternoon.
16:10:22 <TabAtkins> glazou: There's a registration for that, but no fee.
16:10:29 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
16:10:37 <Bert> (I'm arriving too late on Sunday, unfortunately.)
16:10:56 <TabAtkins> glazou: When we know precisely when it is, we should decide who will attend.
16:11:04 <Zakim> +??P13
16:11:13 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:11:14 <TabAtkins> glazou: Please enter suggestions for TPAC for the FtF meeting.
16:11:18 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:11:33 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal
16:11:40 <TabAtkins> glazou: Only one line on the wiki page for the moment.
16:11:52 <TabAtkins> glazou: Back to Bert's question, about multicol draft.
16:12:00 <TabAtkins> glazou: Where do we stand on comments?
16:12:11 <TabAtkins> Hakon: We stand at a good point.  LC ended on Oct 1st.
16:12:27 <TabAtkins> Hakon: We had comments from 3 or 4 people.
16:12:36 <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
16:12:47 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisL (9%), CesarAcebal (5%), ??P13 (95%)
16:12:56 <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
16:12:56 <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
16:13:12 <ChrisL> zakim, mute Cesar
16:13:12 <Zakim> CesarAcebal should now be muted
16:13:16 <TabAtkins> Hakon: From Alex and Sylvain in the WG, and from Giovanni outside the WG.
16:13:33 <TabAtkins> Hakon: Don't think there are any hard issues to deal with, but would like to resolve them today if I can have like 15 minutes.
16:13:53 <TabAtkins> Hakon: For example, the name of the draft.  The current name is -----.  Should we update the name of the draft?
16:13:55 <Bert> zakim, ??P13 is howcome
16:13:55 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:14:37 <Zakim> -howcome
16:14:48 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
16:14:48 <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:14:52 <ChrisL> I'd like some time during today's telcon to discuss, among other
16:14:52 <ChrisL> things, the name of the document. Today it's called
16:14:52 <ChrisL>     CSS3 module: Multi-column layout
16:14:52 <ChrisL> should we call it 
16:14:52 <ChrisL>     CSS Multi-column Layout Module Level 3
16:14:52 <ChrisL> instead? (that's a long name)
16:15:07 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute cesar
16:15:07 <Zakim> CesarAcebal should no longer be muted
16:15:42 <TabAtkins> glazoue: Hakon proposed to rename from "CSS3 module: Multi-column layout" to " CSS Multi-column Layout Module Level 3".
16:15:52 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Do we have a naming convention?
16:15:56 <Zakim> + +47.23.69.aagg
16:15:58 <TabAtkins> Bert: We appear to be moving toward the latter pattern.
16:16:17 <ChrisL> zakim, +47 is howcome
16:16:17 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:16:33 <TabAtkins> Zakim, mute howcome
16:16:33 <Zakim> howcome should now be muted
16:17:28 <TabAtkins> glazou: I think the new name really describes the intent of the module.
16:17:30 <glazou> Zakim, unmute howcome
16:17:30 <Zakim> howcome should no longer be muted
16:17:31 <TabAtkins> Zakim, unmute howcome.
16:17:32 <Zakim> howcome was not muted, TabAtkins
16:17:58 <TabAtkins> Hakon: The problem with level 3 is that there is no level 1 or 2 with multicol layout.  So calling it "level 3" is a little misleading.
16:18:09 <TabAtkins> Zakim, mute howcome
16:18:09 <Zakim> howcome should now be muted
16:18:12 <TabAtkins> Wow.
16:18:33 <TabAtkins> zakim, unmute howcome
16:18:33 <Zakim> howcome should no longer be muted
16:18:37 <TabAtkins> zakim, mute howcome
16:18:39 <Zakim> howcome should now be muted
16:18:51 <TabAtkins> glazou: I have no opinion.  I think it's a minor issue.  What do other people thing?
16:19:06 <TabAtkins> ?: That's what we usually call it in speech.
16:19:07 <ChrisL> +1 for new name
16:19:11 <TabAtkins> glazou: No objections?
16:19:21 <Bert> s/?/Bert/
16:19:31 <TabAtkins> Zakim, unmute howcome
16:19:31 <Zakim> howcome should no longer be muted
16:20:23 <Zakim> -howcome
16:20:27 <TabAtkins> glazou: Any non-editorial changes?
16:20:33 <TabAtkins> Hakon: Yes, I need 5 more minutes.
16:20:51 <TabAtkins> glazou: Do we have anything we can discuss until Hakon is back?
16:21:02 <Zakim> +Michael
16:21:44 <plinss> zakim, Michael is howcome
16:21:44 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:21:55 <TabAtkins> Hakon: Other feedback - one commenter said that we lacked requirements for colors in the gap.
16:22:12 <glazou> urgh
16:23:03 <howcome> Giovanni is asking for a "color profile" of multicol with relaxed requiements
16:23:12 <howcome> I think a profile is too much work
16:23:25 <TabAtkins> glazou: Why is he asking for that?
16:23:28 <howcome> there are relaxed requirements in the multicol draft
16:23:49 <howcome> it refers to css3 colors, but says that implementors only hav to support css2
16:24:13 <TabAtkins> glazou: I think this will be extremely confusing for web authors.
16:24:25 <howcome> I don't want to require support for css3 colors in order to support multicol layout
16:24:26 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Surely it's a conformance class; it shouldn't require a whole new profile.
16:24:32 <ChrisL> surely that is a conformance clause, not a whole new profile
16:25:06 <TabAtkins> szilles: Why does the draft refer to css3 colors if people don't want to support it?
16:25:16 <TabAtkins> Hakon: We have to refer to *something* for the color property in the column gap.
16:25:24 <TabAtkins> szilles: Is CSS2 not enough?
16:25:28 <TabAtkins> Hakon: It's eneough for me.
16:25:30 <howcome> column-rule-color needs a reference
16:25:37 <TabAtkins> szilles: So is it just an issue of which to refer to?
16:25:38 <anne2> (don't most browsers support css3-color nowadays?)
16:25:39 <sylvaing> why wouldn't CSS3 color be OK there ?
16:25:39 <TabAtkins> Hakon: Yes.
16:26:04 <TabAtkins> glazou: When CSS3 colors becomes a rec, will that automatically update the multicol draft up to css3 colors?
16:26:13 <howcome> This property sets the color of the column rule. The <color> values are defined in [CSS3COLOR]. 
16:26:13 <howcome> Conforming user agents are only required to support the subset of color values defined in [CSS21].
16:26:18 <TabAtkins> ?: Yeah, we don't want to do special-casing of color models for particular properties.
16:26:40 <TabAtkins> glazou: I suppose that they'll expand the value-space of colors supported by CSS3 colors.
16:26:51 <TabAtkins> szilles: Wont' that be put into the snapshot of what needs to be implemented?
16:26:51 <Bert> s/?/Sylvain/
16:27:08 <TabAtkins> szilles: This is a general problem for specs.  For conformance and testing you have to pick one for everyone to do.
16:27:18 <TabAtkins> glazou: But CSS3 colors isn't a rec for the moment.
16:27:27 <TabAtkins> szilles: So the only thing that multicol *can* call for is 2.1.
16:27:48 <TabAtkins> szilles: So that hits the issue of how we are updating specs in a modular fashion.
16:27:59 <TabAtkins> szilles: If we were doing the specs in lockstep, this wouldn't be a problem.
16:28:21 <TabAtkins> szilles: so my suggestion is that, in a snapshot, say "the following specs that refer to XXX color spec now refer to YYY color spec".
16:28:45 <TabAtkins> Hakon: I think the current text is okay.  Do you want me to change it?
16:29:06 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Yeah, why not just say that the color values are defined in CSS2.1 and that's it?
16:29:22 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: If someone supports css3 colors now, surely they'll support those colors *everywhere*?
16:29:41 <TabAtkins> Sylvain: Sure, but what if there's a fix for something?  You don't want to support something that's been proven to be wrong.
16:29:55 <sylvaing> Tab, that was Hakon I think :)
16:30:05 <TabAtkins> glazou: A possiblity: we say that your module depends on css2.1 color, and leave up for implements to use css3 color.
16:30:17 <TabAtkins> szilles: And sometime in th future, we can update via a snapshot to css3 color officially.
16:30:39 <TabAtkins> Hakon: So what do we say in multicol?  Define it as css2.1 and say it will automatically upgrade to css3 when it becomes a rec?
16:30:48 <ChrisL> Just say it uses a <color>
16:31:00 <TabAtkins> glazou: No, just say nothing.  Otherwise it requires testing.  We'll just update the spec when css3 colors moves up to rec.
16:31:07 <TabAtkins> szilles: Or a new snapshot.
16:31:23 <TabAtkins> ?: Aren't we doing a lot of work?  Updating a spec that's a rec is hard.
16:31:32 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:31:46 <glazou> s/?/sylvaing
16:31:48 <TabAtkins> szilles: If you want a Rec you need conformance, and you need something clear.  You can't make "automatic" clear.
16:31:56 <Zakim> + +1.650.924.aahh
16:31:56 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:31:57 <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to David_Baron
16:32:04 <glazou> hi dbaron
16:32:09 <dbaron> Zakim, aahh is David_Baron
16:32:09 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
16:32:10 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:32:10 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:32:23 <TabAtkins> szilles: Important part of conformance is that the part that *is* in thee language is done in an interop way.
16:32:39 <TabAtkins> Hakon: Agreed, but don't think we should leave it open.  We should make it clear that you could do rgba or not.
16:32:47 <TabAtkins> ?: If you say CSS2.1, it would be clear.
16:33:04 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: But you are.  Just say <color>, and then when CSS3 color comes up it will allow it.
16:33:15 <TabAtkins> Hakon: No, you have to refer to <color> from a specific spec.
16:33:30 <TabAtkins> glazou: I don't think implementors will use different color specs in their implementation.
16:33:40 <TabAtkins> Hakon: Exactly, so I don't want to leave it undecided.
16:33:41 <Zakim> -bradk
16:33:44 <Bert> Thinking about: "At the time of publication, <color> was defined by [CSS21]."
16:34:01 <TabAtkins> szilles: So this isn't an issue with multicol, it's an issue about how to resolve linked specs.  It may require an FtF.
16:34:09 <Zakim> +bradk
16:34:28 <TabAtkins> Sylvain?:  Someething about CSS2 being a subset of css3 color.
16:34:55 <TabAtkins> ?: Since css3 is a clear superset of css2.1, I think we can take the dependency.
16:35:10 <ChrisL> s/?:/Steve:/
16:35:17 <TabAtkins> szilles: I understand, but I'd rather solve the general problem and then apply that, so we're not left with someething we don't like.
16:35:41 <TabAtkins> plinss: Can't we just say "the current <color> defined by CSS"?
16:35:51 <Zakim> + +00100100aaii
16:36:01 <TabAtkins> glazou: No, because then we'll have to change tests, testing on 2.1 first and then 3 later when color updates.
16:36:17 <TabAtkins> szilles: People can't ever decide which things they implement, because the ruls change.
16:36:40 <TabAtkins> plinss: If color level 3 is a rec, and multicol is a rec, nobody's going to implement multicol with color level 2.
16:36:50 <anne2> szilles, fwiw, we're usually pretty clear on what we want to implement :)
16:37:02 <TabAtkins> Hakon: We could avoid referring to anything, and just say that it takes the same values that are taken by color:.
16:37:08 <TabAtkins> glazou: Steve, would that work for you?
16:37:19 <anne2> szilles, though it seems that often specifications change halfway :/
16:37:38 <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
16:37:48 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:38:03 <TabAtkins> glazou: That would probably require writing tests, not for CSS2.1, but for CSS3 colors.  If we start writing tests for 2.1 and css3 colors move along the rec track, we'll miss tests.
16:38:12 <Bert> "the same as 'color'" is a testable statement :-) Even if you don't know what the range of values is....
16:38:15 <TabAtkins> Hakon: I'm not worried about people **something** things here.
16:38:29 <TabAtkins> Hakon: I'm not too worried about people screwing up implmntations here.
16:38:52 <TabAtkins> plinss: I accept that this is a geneeral problem with any inter-module dependency, and it merits further discussion.
16:39:12 <TabAtkins> Sylvain: I agree, and let's do what peter suggested and just write tests for css3 colors.
16:39:26 <TabAtkins> ChrisL: Actually, dont' we aclready have a good css3 color test suite and pretty much done?
16:39:33 <Zakim> -bradk
16:40:03 <Zakim> +bradk
16:40:09 <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm still unhappy with what I'm hearing, because I don't think it makes a clear statement of what's expected of a conforming implementation, and whether a conforming impl is allowed to exceed the spec.
16:40:14 <TabAtkins> glazou: What would you say?
16:40:31 <TabAtkins> szilles: I'd have the spec say that it should implement css2.1 color, and I'm fine with being silent on further.
16:40:45 <TabAtkins> szilles: We have to ask ourselves if we're happy with impls going beyond the spec.
16:41:21 <TabAtkins> szilles: I want to adopt a criteria to test for.  I think we all agree on practical issues, I just want it clear what needs to be tested at this moment.
16:41:26 <TabAtkins> glazou: Other opinions?
16:41:50 <TabAtkins> fantasai: As far as testing goes, we do have a n/a category in our test implementations.
16:42:19 <ChrisL> yup, we could make css3 color support an optional feature, and use 'not applicable' as needed
16:42:27 <TabAtkins> fantasai: If we included the tests for multicol, we'd have two tests - one which uses css2.1 color and one with css3 color.  An impl that uses one or the other would write "n/a" for the other.
16:42:37 <TabAtkins> glazou: Yeah, that's what I suggest.  Point at 2.1 for now, and update in the future.
16:42:56 <TabAtkins> szilles: So if I had two implementations, one which implements 2.1 and one does 3, which is conforming?
16:43:19 <TabAtkins> glazou: I disagree with "not interoprable".  The spec says to do 2.1 until we move it with a snapshot.
16:43:38 <TabAtkins> szilles: I think we really just need to decide how modularization works.  This is only one example.
16:43:54 <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm less concerned about the way it comes, as long as it's cleear what conformance means.  That's what a lot of people care about.
16:44:22 <TabAtkins> glazou: Agree, and I think that if we don't establish clear guidelins for the tests, we'll have remarks from the w3c staff.
16:44:43 <TabAtkins> glazou: My suggestion is to write css2.1 in th prose, but prepare css3 colors so we're ready.  That way we're clear, but can move forward in thee future.
16:44:54 <TabAtkins> glazou: Let's reserve some time at TPAC to discuss modularization.
16:44:59 <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm happy with that.
16:45:06 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Sounds good.
16:45:06 <fantasai> s/prepare/prepare tests with/
16:45:27 <TabAtkins> glazou: Objections? --no objections--
16:45:35 <TabAtkins> Hakon: One more item.  Sylvain's commeent.
16:45:46 <TabAtkins> Hakon: It's regarding the rule between columns.  How far down/up should wee go?
16:46:02 <TabAtkins> Hakon: say you ahve 2 columns with images at the bottom, but there's not space, so they're moved to the next column.
16:46:14 <TabAtkins> Hakon: The spec kind of says  there will be a rule where there is content.
16:46:21 <TabAtkins> Hakon: So is there content when something is moved?
16:46:33 <TabAtkins> Hakon: The issue is if there is "content" based on layout, or based on where content is put?
16:46:50 <TabAtkins> Sylvain: I looked at newspapers, and it seems that when there is a column rulee, it spans the size of the box, not the size of the content.
16:47:01 <TabAtkins> Hakon: Yes, and also there *could* have been content there.
16:47:17 <TabAtkins> Hakon: But I think that visually it makes sense to not have a rule there.
16:47:35 <TabAtkins> Hakon: I think it often goes too low because of the line-height.  I think it should only go as low as the lowest baseline.
16:47:50 <TabAtkins> szilles: Dos that mean if i have 3 columns with 2 rules between them, they can be at different heights.
16:47:53 <TabAtkins> Hakon: yes.
16:47:53 <glazou> s/Sylvain/Daniel
16:47:58 <glazou> eheh
16:47:59 <TabAtkins> szilles: That sounds weird to me.
16:48:12 <TabAtkins> Hakon: If we dont' have that rule, we'll have a lot of lines with whitespace next to them.
16:48:25 <TabAtkins> Hakon: Let's say you introduce a column break.  Should you continue to put the rule there?
16:48:35 <TabAtkins> ?: I perfectly see your point, but how is the author going to control that?
16:48:47 <TabAtkins> ?: And that could lead to bad visual designs.
16:48:49 <Bert> s/?/glazou/
16:48:58 <TabAtkins> Hakon: No, we would *say* that we only show the rule when you have actual content.
16:49:07 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think if you have a rule it should be the entire height of the column block.
16:49:15 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Eeithr you have a rule or not.
16:49:20 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I provisionally agree.
16:49:34 <TabAtkins> Hakon: That's the simplest.  I've been using these rules for a while, and I find that the rules are too long.
16:50:02 <TabAtkins> ?: When you split content into columns, you care much about the final result.  I dont' think authors will want to have the rules be shorter.
16:50:49 <Zakim> - +00100100aaii
16:50:56 <TabAtkins> glazou: I just looked at the latest issue of **something*, and there's whitespace in front of the columnn rule.
16:51:08 <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm not sure quite what you're saying without examples.
16:51:18 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:51:27 <TabAtkins> glazou: I strongly disagree with your original proposal that implements *should not* render rules in front of whitespace.
16:51:39 <Bert> I agree with Håkon: rules no longer than the actual content. But: all rules must be the same length.
16:51:41 <TabAtkins> glazou: If you are going to vary this, it needs to be in control of the author.
16:51:46 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aajj
16:52:02 <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.996.aajj is [apple]
16:52:02 <Zakim> +[apple]; got it
16:52:09 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:52:09 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:52:11 <TabAtkins> glazou: That's all for multicol?
16:52:25 <Bert> Hakon: I will provide examples.
16:52:31 <dsinger> please come to the media accessibility workshop!
16:52:38 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: next on the list is text-overflow: shrink.
16:52:41 <Zakim> +??P19
16:52:49 <TabAtkins> glazou: Ok, continued discussion.  I wasn't there, so it's probably up to you to continue.
16:52:55 <fantasai> Zakim, ?P19 is fantasai
16:52:55 <Zakim> sorry, fantasai, I do not recognize a party named '?P19'
16:53:01 <glazou> dsinger: yes i already said that to the wg
16:53:05 <dbaron> Zakim, ??P19 is fantasai
16:53:05 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:53:14 <glazou> dsinger: got my email about it?
16:53:53 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I wanted the ability to make a line of text always stretch/shrink to its box..
16:54:31 <TabAtkins> fantasai: So are you looking for text-overflow: shrink?  Or something with justification?
16:54:43 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Don't really care.  Can adjust size, spacing, etc.
16:55:02 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Sounds like justification.  We can put a note into CSS3 text, but I don't think that it'll be implemented in the near future.
16:55:26 <TabAtkins> Bert: Why not?  It seems necessary.  I want to both stretch/shrink text, but also align the last line.
16:55:43 <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'm not talking about the last-lin property, I'm talking about shrinking/growing text.
16:55:59 <TabAtkins> fantasai: This shouldn't be part of text-last-align, but rather part of text-justify.
16:56:20 <TabAtkins> Bert: That makes things complicated, because every line could be a different size.
16:56:25 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yeah, that's what you'd get.
16:56:52 <fantasai> I'm saying it should be text-justify: resize-font
16:56:53 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I don't think that's at all a desirable effect when you just want to align the last line.
16:57:24 <TabAtkins> If you want to resize the last line, use text-align: last.  We're talkinga bout shrinking text.
16:57:29 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Would that apply with a single line?
16:57:34 <bradk> You should be able to fit a text via resizing or condensing, without changing the text-align
16:57:37 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Yes.  If there's just one line it's the last line.
16:58:21 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Nah, text-align isn't meaningful when the text is purposely filling the whole line.
16:58:34 <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you define a min/max size, then it may not fill the whole space and the alignment will matter.
16:59:15 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#justification
16:59:39 <TabAtkins> Bert: A topic for the FtF?
16:59:57 <fantasai> Pick a keyword, I'll add a note to text-justify. But I'm not actively editing css3-text
16:59:58 <TabAtkins> fantasai: No, I don't think it's a high priority, because Text isn't a high-priority topic.  It should be, but nobody's editting it.  Will you takee it over, Bert?
17:00:04 <TabAtkins> Bert: If that's what it takes, why not?
17:00:28 <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
17:01:20 <TabAtkins> Zakim, who's making noise?
17:01:24 <bradk> My comment was that text-overflow is the place for that, because you might want text to be centered until it got too wide, and then you resize or condense it.
17:01:31 <Zakim> TabAtkins, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: TabAtkins (4%), howcome (65%), Bert (4%)
17:02:33 <fantasai> TabAtkins will come up with a keyword for text-justify, I will add it as a note to css3-text, and the next editor of css3-text can take care of it; it may or may not make it into the next draft
17:02:39 <fantasai> s/draft/official/
17:02:43 <fantasai> publication
17:02:51 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:02:59 <Zakim> -bradk
17:03:00 <TabAtkins> glazou: That's it, and please add suggestions to the wiki page.
17:03:00 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:03:01 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:03:02 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:03:02 <Zakim> -glazou
17:03:04 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:04 <Zakim> -[apple]
17:03:05 <Zakim> -plinss
17:03:06 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:03:08 <Zakim> -howcome
17:03:10 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
17:03:12 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:03:14 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.766.aaaa, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss, +95089aacc, glazou, +1.281.305.aadd, +1.650.766.aaee, TabAtkins, Bert, bradk, +34.60.940.aaff, CesarAcebal, ChrisL,
17:03:16 <Zakim> ... sylvaing, arronei, SteveZ, howcome, +47.23.69.aagg, +1.650.924.aahh, David_Baron, +00100100aaii, dsinger, fantasai
17:03:33 <glazou> TabAtkins because you're stressed by voice recognition?
17:03:40 <TabAtkins> This seems likely.
17:03:47 <TabAtkins> But I did a lot better today!
17:03:54 <glazou> yes indeed!
17:05:12 <bradk> I'm terrible with voice recognition alone. You are brave to do the scribing, but you make me look bad.
17:05:51 <TabAtkins> It's the voice recognition that's the problem.  I'm great at transcribing, and typing while I'm thinking of other things.
17:05:51 <fantasai> It took me awhile to learn all the voices, too. I relied very heavy on dbaron at first :)
17:06:44 <glazou> but hey we all recognize howcome's noise without problem :-)
17:07:04 <bradk> It would be nice if Zakim could tell my IRC program to put a dot next to whoever was talking.
17:07:23 <TabAtkins> I'm almost perfect at recognizing fantasai, glazou, bert, chrisl, hakon, and szilles.
17:07:30 <TabAtkins> Everyone else is still a little hazy.
17:07:36 <TabAtkins> Luckily they talk the most.
17:09:09 <fantasai> That's probably why you recognize them best -- more practice ;)
17:10:23 <bradk> ta
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21:50:38 <fantasai> plinss: When will you have time to set up csswg.org to host the reviewer app and source code?
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