W3C

- DRAFT -

SV_MEETING_TITLE

13 Oct 2009

Attendees

Present
kasei, +7.950.aaaa, bglimm, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Ivan, SimonS, LeeF, Chimezie_Ogbuji, SteveH, LukeWM, KjetilK, Prateek
Regrets
Chair
LeeF
Scribe
AndyS

Contents


<AxelPolleres> AOB: Does it make sense to discuss the entailment regime-URIs today?.... I ask because there would be a RIF call today, and, if I want to poke them, I should maybe start in that call (would need to leave early then...), cf. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0084.html

There are several thing on the agenda that look like long and important.

<LeeF> hey, everyone

<LeeF> sorry i'm late

<LeeF> dialing in now

<AxelPolleres> Agenda is here (with additions from andy): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0136.html

<LukeWM> does anyone know how to make the ?? stuff appear on the phone?

<LeeF> except zakim isn't working for me

<bglimm> Lee, I cannot here you

<LeeF> Not on the phone yet, trying to connect

<AxelPolleres> hmmm

<bglimm> ah

<kasei> LikeWM, "?? stuff"?

<bglimm> yes

<LukeWM> kasei, the code that identifies us to zakim. Is there something I can type into the phone keypad to make it appear on IRC?

<SteveH> it's something like #41

<kasei> 41#, I think

<kasei> hrmm

Administation

<scribe> scribe:AndyS

<scribe> scribenick:AndyS

LeeF: for now, move admin to later

FPWD

LeeF: W3C typical model for FPWD is to publish something on time, with issues, but no sense of complete

<bglimm> I still have no CVS access (can connect, but have no rights to see the relevant folder)

LeeF: good to publish in advance of ISWC
... one hour panel on SPARQL at ISWC
... so generate community interest
... publish as many docs as possible
... the naming/versioing issue -- need to clarify. Individual drafts numbered (agreed F2F)
... then a chair talked about SPARQL 2.0
... and the individual docs having different numbers has been shown to be confusing
... may get worse with future doc versions

<LeeF> SteveH, are you talking?

<SteveH> yes

<SteveH> aaah

SteveH: The multi-version thing is confusing - feedback from colleagues.
... one label for the whole package
... if SPARQL 2.0, then use that not doc versions.

<SimonS> +1 for SPARQL2010

SteveH: suggest SPARQL-2010 style

<LukeWM> thanks LeeF

<SteveH> +1 to ivan

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-05-06#resolution_3

Ivan: no strong feelings but SPARQL-2.0 so SPARQL-2.0/Update

Axel: (reminder of discussion)

<kasei> does ivan's idea get weird if later on query is updated, and everything else without changes gets a version bump, too (so maybe update 1.1 == update 2.0)??

<kasei> seems like it gets weird either way.

<SteveH> that's why I prefer years

<SteveH> heh

ivan: if touch one, touch everything in practice so can happen but less likely
... breaks the W3C style.
... not been done before

<AxelPolleres> What speaks against going uniformly with 1.1 (looks like a compromise)?

ivan: XHTML was special -- other specs have used version by number OK

<AxelPolleres> SPARQL1.1/Query SPARQL1.1/Update ... instead of SPARQL/Query 1.1 SPARQL/Update 1.0, etc.

LeeF: propose SPARQL-X/Query etc

<SteveH> +1

<LeeF> PROPOSED: To give this round of SPARQL work its own name and name the components based on that

<ivan> +1

<chimezie> +1

<kasei> +1

<SimonS> +1

<bglimm> 0

<bglimm> yes

<AxelPolleres> +1 (if promised we stick with that ;-) )

<LeeF> RESOLVED: To give this round of SPARQL work its own name and name the components based on that, bglimm abstaining

<bglimm> I have no strong opinion on any

<LeeF> What is X?

<LeeF> 1.1

<LeeF> 2.0

<LeeF> 2

<LeeF> 2010

AndyS: SPARQL-2012 and publish early

pref for 2 not 2.0

ivan: cautious about 2010 style

<LeeF> acl AxelPolleres

strawpoll

<LeeF> straw poll: SPARQL 1.1

<kasei> +1

<AxelPolleres> +1

<bglimm> 0

<SteveH> 0

<KjetilK> +1

<ivan> +1

+0

<LeeF> 0

<chimezie> +1

<SimonS> +1

<LukeWM> 0

<LeeF> 1.1 - 6 +1s

<LeeF> straw poll: SPARQL 2 (or 2.0)

<SteveH> -1

<bglimm> 0

<kasei> -1

<KjetilK> 0

<AxelPolleres> 0

<ivan> 1

<SimonS> -1

<LeeF> +1

+1 (pref 2)

<LukeWM> 0

<chimezie> 0

<LeeF> less support for 2/2.0 then for 1.1

<LeeF> straw poll: SPARQL 2010

<SteveH> +1

<kasei> +1

<ivan> -1

<bglimm> 0

<KjetilK> -1

<LeeF> +1

<SimonS> +1

<chimezie> 0

<LukeWM> 0

0

<AxelPolleres> -1

<LeeF> PROPOSED: The current work be known as SPARQL 1.1 with the components being SPARQL 1.1 Query, SPARQL 1.1 Update, SPARQL 1.1 Protocol, etc.

<SteveH> seconded

<ivan> +1

<AxelPolleres> +1

<bglimm> +1

<LeeF> RESOLVED: The current work be known as SPARQL 1.1 with the components being SPARQL 1.1 Query, SPARQL 1.1 Update, SPARQL 1.1 Protocol, etc.

<scribe> ACTION: andy and steve: update the query document for SPARQL 1.1 (Query) before FPWD

<trackbot> Created ACTION-119 - And steve: update the query document for SPARQL 1.1 (Query) before FPWD [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-10-20].

<LeeF> ACTION: Lee to fix his slides

<trackbot> Created ACTION-120 - Fix his slides [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-20].

<SteveH> Query is already 1.1

<LeeF> ACTION: Eric and Lee to make sure FPWD documents reflect SPARQL 1.1 X style naming

<trackbot> Created ACTION-121 - And Lee to make sure FPWD documents reflect SPARQL 1.1 X style naming [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-10-20].

but written wrongly

<SteveH> ah, ok

<chimezie> what about drafts that don't reference SPARQL __? is a change neccessary?

<SteveH> +1 to ivan

<SteveH> it has mappings to the update language

AndyS: the relationship to naming is SPARQL

chimezie: title already problematic: otherwise mostly neutral

<chimezie> i will concurr

<AxelPolleres> short names, some proposals: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/ vs. http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql1.1-query/ vs. http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql-1.1-query/ etc. so... there are a couple of options

W3C is usually 11 isn't it?

<ivan> AndyS: yes

<LeeF> sparql11-query

<LeeF> sparql11-update

<LeeF> sparql11-protocol

<LeeF> sparql11-service-description

<ivan> sparql11-entailement ?

yuk -> ell-one-one

<LeeF> sparql11-rdf-http-update

but oh well

<AxelPolleres> e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/

ivan: will check what other groups have done

<SteveH> e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/

<AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/

Leef: short name style sparql11-xyz

<bglimm> owl2-profiles, owl2-syntax, etc it is for OWL

<ivan> AndyS: yes, pretty much

Status of documents

<LeeF> subtopic: SPARQL 1.1 Update

<LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/

SteveH: current form - some contradictions and may confuse.

<SimonS> http://www.w3.org/mid/BD315460-58A8-46BF-8324-FB5D057715A3@garlik.com

<LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0041.html

SteveH: issues not agreed on are not called out (e.g. issue-20)

SimonS: not a contradiction as such - having trouble getting to W3C to do edits

LeeF: better to publish than polish - if we can identify the areas for issues to be called out as unresolved

SimonS: many changes
... reorder the doc to follows current SPARQL spec
... separate issues renamed to features in query
... inline issues
... grammar from common grammar

<SteveH> calls out to issues are good, thanks SimonS

(Could the grammar changes be logged so I can test them)

LeeF; all decisions modulo XSLT issues

LeeF: all decisions modulo XSLT issues
... no red stuff from xmlspec/XSLT processing
... will roll changes back to editors docs

<LukeWM> I'm happy to do a review

<LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/ as FPWD under sparql11-update modulo Luke's approval of Simon's updates to text in section 4 and fixes to xml-spec issues

<SteveH> seconded

<ivan> +1

<bglimm> +1

<AxelPolleres> +1 (DERI)

+1 (HP)

<LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/ as FPWD under sparql11-update modulo Luke's approval of Simon's updates to text in section 4 and fixes to xml-spec issues, no abstentions or objections

subtopic: SPARQL/update protocol
... SPARQL/Query

<LeeF> PROPOSED: That the actual short name under which SPARQL 1.1 Query be published as FPWD is sparql11-query

<ivan> +1

<bglimm> +1

seconded

<AxelPolleres> as an amendment to resolution http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-10-06#resolution_3

<AxelPolleres> +1

<LeeF> RESOLVED: That the actual short name under which SPARQL 1.1 Query be published as FPWD is sparql11-query, no abstentions or objections

<Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about formality wrt query

<LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/

subtopic: SPARQL/update http protocol

chimezie: has addressed comments as best he can - issues highlighted

I'm happy to publish as is.

<SteveH> I'm happy

KjetilK: good enough for FPWD - but pref chnage "RDF knowledge" terminology

LeeF: suggestions for different name?

KjetilK: (unclear to scribe)

<LeeF> kjetil: maybe "graph information resource"?

LeeF: terminology can change in later drafts. Flag an issue
... flag an issue for now

<LeeF> ISSUE: Suitability of term "networked RDF knowledge"

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-44 - Suitability of term "networked RDF knowledge" ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/44/edit .

<LeeF> sparql11-rdf-http-update ?

<KjetilK> sparql11-http-update ?

<KjetilK> isn't that enough?

with rdf

(not strong)

<LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ as sparql11-http-rdf-update modulo any xlm-spec issues

<LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ as FPWD at sparql11-http-rdf-update modulo any xlm-spec issues and adding SPARQL 1.1 to title and cleaning up references

<ivan> +1

<bglimm> +1

<KjetilK> +1

<LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ as FPWD at sparql11-http-rdf-update modulo any xlm-spec issues and adding SPARQL 1.1 to title and cleaning up references, no abstentions or objections

<AxelPolleres> +1 (DERI)

subtopic: SPARQL/protocol

<LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/

<bglimm> what is the URL for that?

<bglimm> thanks

LeeF: overall structure OK - need heading for update (language by POST) examples

<bglimm> and it has XML errors

<triple-pattern> ?

<LeeF> AxelPolleres: include short change log of what's changed since SPARQL Protocol REC

LeeF: 2.2.1.13 - flag for removal

<LeeF> + flag XML input example for removal

<LeeF> + add placeholder for update examples

<LeeF> + change log from REC

<LeeF> + xml-spec issues

<LeeF> + previous editors

AndyS: didn't notice 2.2.1.13 (SPARQL/X usage) last time

<LeeF> + clarify text at beginning of section 2 to summarize what the protocol is all about (queries over HTTP GET and POST, updates over HTTP POST)

<LeeF> PROPOSED: To publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/ as FPWD at sparql11-protocol modulo list of changes noted in SPARQL WG 2009-10-13 meeting and modulo Axel's approval

<bglimm> +1

<ivan> +1

<LeeF> RESOLVED: To publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/ as FPWD at sparql11-protocol modulo list of changes noted in SPARQL WG 2009-10-13 meeting and modulo Axel's approval, no abstentions or objections

<AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to check changes on http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/ as agreed on and mail approval, if satisfied

<trackbot> Could not create new action (failed to parse response from server) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.

<trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: local variable 'd' referenced before assignment) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.

subtopic: SPARQL/service description

<LeeF> is http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt still the latest version?

kasei: no CVS access yet

LeeF: modulo putting into W3C format

kasei: superproperty for feature; subproperty of feature language (query and/or update)
... missing URIs for actual names

LeeF: w3c resource availablity for publishing?

<bglimm> yes

ivan: heard CVS access problems

<bglimm> I can conect to the CVS server, but I cannot access the relevant folde

<bglimm> r

<bglimm> I contacted Eric, but haven't heard from him

<kasei> gwilliam

<bglimm> BGlimm

<bglimm> bglimm

<bglimm> it is all lowercase

LeeF: publication window for ISWC?

ivan: ISWC. Can publish late next week.

<kasei> i'd prefer not abbreviating

<bglimm> I am happy with the full thing

<LeeF> PROPOSED: Publish http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt as FPWD at sparql11-service-description moduloe putting in W3C format

<bglimm> +1

<KjetilK> +1

<ivan> +1

<AxelPolleres> +1

<LeeF> RESOLVED: Publish http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt as FPWD at sparql11-service-description moduloe putting in W3C format, no abstentions or objections

<bglimm> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:EntailmentRegimes

<bglimm> yes

<bglimm> I agree

AndyS; entailment RDF, RDFS are OK for FPWD

AndyS: entailment RDF, RDFS are OK for FPWD
... not sections on syntax or extensions
... lots of discussion that may imply things that are not planned

<bglimm> OWL should also be taken out/left only as a header

ivan: needs adapting to W3C style.

<bglimm> Are there other reviewers than Ivan?

<LeeF> PROPOSED: To publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:EntailmentRegimes as FPWD at sparql11-entailment modulo putting it in W3C format, and removing details of regimes other than RDF and RDFS and removing Alternative Syntax and Extensions sections

<AxelPolleres> shall we also set someone to approve?

<AxelPolleres> +1

<ivan> +1

<bglimm> CAn I say +1 as the editor?

<bglimm> +1

<LeeF> RESOLVED: To publish http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:EntailmentRegimes as FPWD at sparql11-entailment modulo putting it in W3C format, and removing details of regimes other than RDF and RDFS and removing Alternative Syntax and Extensions sections, no abstentions or objections

<LeeF> ACTION: Lee to coordinate with Axel, Ivan, Eric, and the editors to publish our documents

<trackbot> Created ACTION-123 - Coordinate with Axel, Ivan, Eric, and the editors to publish our documents [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-20].

adjourned

<LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0406.html

<bglimm> WWW/2009/sparql/docs/

"A problem occurred in a Python script."

"HTTPError: HTTP Error 404: Not Found"

ivan? do yuo have a few more minutes? (after CVS issues)

hmm - I was Garlik!

ivan - still here

No RRSagent - no chatlog. Can I retro fix this up somehow?

<ivan> andy?

hi

Problem with minutes

<ivan> ouch

<ivan> I told sysreq to reinstante zakim!

<ivan> nobody started neither trackbot nor rrsagent

<ivan> :-(

trackbot is here

<ivan> but it was not used to start up the conference

<ivan> so rrsagent did not start either...

I invited zakim - should have done rrsagent

<ivan> yep:-(

Is the timestamp needed? My client does not seem to dump that ... stil checking

I'm still moving machines - xchat logging was not to file - do you have a copy?

<ivan> I have a copy of the log, I hope

<ivan> checking

<ivan> andy, I will send you the logs by email

thx

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: andy and steve: update the query document for SPARQL 1.1 (Query) before FPWD
[NEW] ACTION: Axel to check changes on http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/ as agreed on and mail approval, if satisfied
[NEW] ACTION: Eric and Lee to make sure FPWD documents reflect SPARQL 1.1 X style naming
[NEW] ACTION: Lee to coordinate with Axel, Ivan, Eric, and the editors to publish our documents
[NEW] ACTION: Lee to fix his slides
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2009/10/13 16:23:54 $