14:56:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:56:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-irc
14:57:11 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
14:58:03 <ChrisW> sandro - did you set up the channel already?
14:58:08 <sandro> no
14:58:15 <sandro> er, depends what you mean.
14:58:27 <AxelPolleres> I'd have some AOB, but can only dial in later: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0084.html, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Oct/0017.html
14:58:28 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:58:28 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:34 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:58:43 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 13-Oct-09
14:58:54 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Oct/0012.html
14:59:01 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:59:13 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:39 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #rif
15:01:02 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:01:49 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:56 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:01:59 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:02:24 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:02:42 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:47 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:47 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:02:58 <Zakim> +??P39
15:03:03 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:03:07 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:03:23 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
15:03:54 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, DaveReynolds, Sandro, Michael_Kifer
15:03:56 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
15:04:14 <ChrisW> Scribe: MichaelKifer
15:04:24 <ChrisW> zakim, Michael_Kifer is MichaelKifer
15:04:24 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:05:13 <ChrisW> MInutes from last telecon: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/att-0118/RIF-minutes-29-sep-2009.html
15:05:23 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept minutes of last telecon
15:05:30 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of last telecon
15:05:56 <ChrisW> axel, remind us when you join about your OB
15:06:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:06:09 <APaschke> APaschke has joined #rif
15:06:15 <ChrisW> Topic: Liason
15:06:37 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:06:49 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:06:57 <Zakim> +??P60
15:07:23 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:07:23 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:07:37 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/
15:08:40 <MichaelKifer> Chris: new WG called RDB2RDF (mapping relational DBs to RDF/OWL)
15:09:18 <MichaelKifer> Sandro: Someone from our group should join RDB2RDF to show them the light.
15:09:33 <DaveReynolds> Charter says: "The mapping language SHOULD use W3C RIF whenever a rule engine is needed in the mapping language"
15:10:10 <MichaelKifer> Cris: perhaps BLD or some small extension can do all what RDB2RDF might ever want.
15:10:14 <ChrisW> Topic: action review
15:10:40 <ChrisW> close action-904
15:10:40 <trackbot> ACTION-904 Try to dig up XML RIF store closed
15:11:02 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:11:42 <Zakim> +ghallmar
15:12:09 <ChrisW> Topic: Public comments
15:12:28 <APaschke> Zakim, ??P60 is me
15:12:28 <Zakim> +APaschke; got it
15:12:43 <APaschke> Zakim, mute me
15:12:43 <Zakim> APaschke should now be muted
15:12:50 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_WL2
15:13:14 <ChrisW> action: Chris to send http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_WL2
15:13:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-929 - Send http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_WL2 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-10-20].
15:14:09 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0006.html
15:17:43 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html
15:18:37 <ChrisW> action: michael to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html
15:18:37 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - michael
15:18:37 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msintek, mkifer, merdmann)
15:18:48 <ChrisW> action: mkifer to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html
15:18:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-930 - Look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-10-20].
15:19:27 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Publicity
15:20:41 <Harold> Alexandre Riazanov just wrote:
15:20:51 <Harold> 1. A converter from RIF BLD to the TPTP format. This will allow
15:20:51 <Harold> using all the TPTP reasoners. I already have a working implementation,
15:20:51 <Harold> although it does not deal will External terms and atoms yet. 
15:20:58 <Harold> 2. Support for the new TPTP format in VampirePrime. It already works
15:20:58 <Harold> for proof search, and soon I will restore the support of query answering. 
15:20:58 <Harold> In particular, the generation of schematic answers over RDB will be supported.
15:22:10 <Harold> http://www.cs.miami.edu/~tptp/
15:26:06 <MichaelKifer> Implementation of BLD: Ontoprise, BBN
15:26:49 <MichaelKifer> An initial FLD dialect for SILK at the end of October.
15:29:31 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
15:32:25 <AxelPolleres> 'd have some AOB, but can only dial in later: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0084.html, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Oct/0017.html
15:32:26 <ChrisW> Topic: SPARQL licason
15:33:08 <MichaelKifer> 2nd FLD dialect from Stony Brook: DLD with ASP semantics.
15:34:22 <AxelPolleres> At the moment, we use:
15:34:22 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#Simple
15:34:23 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#RDF
15:34:23 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#RDFS
15:34:23 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#D
15:34:24 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#OWL-DL
15:34:25 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#OWL-Full
15:39:26 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Test Cases
15:41:45 <MichaelKifer> Review of RDF combination subclass test cases 
15:43:14 <MichaelKifer> Discussion of what it means to pass a negative entailment case.
15:47:10 <MichaelKifer> Chris: passing a negative test case means failure to derive.
15:48:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> q
15:49:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:49:35 <MichaelKifer> Leora: non-passing any of the test case = non-conformance
15:50:00 <ChrisW> ack LeoraMorgenstern
15:50:04 <APaschke> otherwise the test cases would not make sense
15:50:18 <StellaMitchell> A conformant RIF consumer should report that the conclusion is not entailed by the premises, should not report that the answer is undecided, and must not report that the conclusion is entailed by the premises. 
15:50:20 <MichaelKifer> Passing all of them != conformance -- just means the implementation is "looking good".
15:52:36 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass
15:52:48 <APaschke> +1
15:52:53 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass
15:52:54 <mdean> +1
15:53:05 <sandro> sandro: that "should not" is kind of hard to understand.    I'd prefer something like, "If no answer is determined, UNDECIDED" is the right answer.  One SHOULD try to determine an answer."
15:53:07 <MichaelKifer> By the way, no engine cat always tell that something does not follow, since BLD is only semi-decidable.
15:53:41 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_2
15:53:50 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_2
15:54:01 <StellaMitchell> +1
15:54:05 <APaschke> +1
15:54:08 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_2
15:55:05 <AxelPolleres> any reason why the non-conclusion is red?
15:55:15 <AxelPolleres> ... in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_3
15:55:18 <AxelPolleres> ?
15:55:26 <StellaMitchell> to draw attention to the fact that it is not entailed
15:56:58 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_3
15:57:14 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_3
15:57:22 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:57:41 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_4
15:57:47 <MichaelKifer> MK: unrelated to these test cases, we need to resolve the semantic problems with the RDF/OWL combination, which was discussed in September.
15:59:16 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_4
15:59:25 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_4
16:01:49 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_5
16:02:04 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_5
16:02:43 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_6
16:02:58 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_6
16:03:25 <ChrisW> close action-848
16:03:25 <trackbot> ACTION-848 Review RDF Combination subclass test cases closed
16:04:33 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NestedListsAreNotFlatLists
16:06:01 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NestedListsAreNotFlatLists
16:06:07 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NestedListsAreNotFlatLists
16:06:20 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NestedListsAreNotFlatLists
16:06:39 <APaschke> Zakim, unmute me
16:06:39 <Zakim> APaschke should no longer be muted
16:06:55 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NotAssertRetract
16:08:03 <ChrisW> close action-849
16:08:03 <trackbot> ACTION-849 Review NestedLists and NotAssertRetract test cases closed
16:08:03 <APaschke> yes, it is obsolte
16:08:28 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists
16:09:36 <APaschke> Zakim, mute me
16:09:36 <Zakim> APaschke should now be muted
16:12:45 <Harold> The terminology was changed: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Terms. 4. List terms.
16:13:48 <Harold> "Open lists are usually written using the following: List(t1 ... tm | t)."
16:15:56 <sandro> renamed to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OpenLists
16:16:05 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OpenLists
16:16:09 <sandro> +1
16:16:15 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OpenLists
16:18:03 <MichaelKifer> btw, we also need to change the  contents page   http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case   to affect the above change 
16:18:21 <sandro> Why, MichaelKifer?    Categories are automatic.
16:18:47 <sandro> (Category pages are built by the wiki based on category tags in the pages.)
16:19:03 <MichaelKifer> Chris also sees this problem
16:20:21 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify
16:20:33 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify
16:20:40 <sandro> +1
16:20:43 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify
16:22:05 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_loop
16:22:43 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_loop
16:22:58 <sandro> +1
16:23:00 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_loop
16:24:05 <APaschke> PRD presentation syntax
16:24:06 <APaschke> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Presentation_syntax_.28Informative.29
16:24:14 <sandro> DaveReynolds:  Uhh, shouldn't this have Externals ?
16:25:23 <APaschke>  FORMULA        ::=  IRIMETA? 'External' '(' Atom ')'
16:26:15 <APaschke> TERM           ::= IRIMETA? (Const | Var | List | 'External' '(' Expr ')')
16:26:38 <AxelPolleres> so this is not an external function here?
16:26:44 <MichaelKifer> Gary: external is optional in terms
16:26:46 <AxelPolleres> confused 
16:26:54 <APaschke> presentation syntax of PRD is in section 9
16:27:24 <AxelPolleres> q+
16:28:03 <AxelPolleres> and there is still:  Name           ::= UNICODESTRING
16:28:10 <AxelPolleres> ack me
16:28:48 <ChrisW> action: stella to send CSMA fixes for PRD EBNF
16:28:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-931 - Send CSMA fixes for PRD EBNF [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-10-20].
16:28:49 <AxelPolleres> christian might want to have a look at the recent  EBNF changes in FLD/BLD/DTB in that respect as well...
16:28:53 <MichaelKifer> EBNF says external is mandatory, which clashes with the text. But EBNF is only informative.
16:29:25 <AxelPolleres> even if only informative, guess we'd prefer to have it consitent ;-)
16:29:42 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_noloop
16:30:04 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: extend meeting for 5 mins
16:30:09 <AxelPolleres> 0, need to run
16:30:11 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: extend meeting for 5 mins
16:30:13 <MichaelKifer> I'll have to leave after 5 mins sharp
16:30:46 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:31:09 <Harold> I think we should not change External(...) being mandatory at this stage.
16:32:31 <Harold> (This will also help to keep BLD and PRD as compatible as possible.)
16:33:37 <MichaelKifer> But in BLD External is mandatory for external functions and builtins.
16:34:27 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_noloop
16:34:40 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_noloop
16:34:45 <Harold> Yes, thats why it should also stay mandatory for external functions and builtins in PRD.
16:34:54 <Zakim> -APaschke
16:34:55 <Zakim> -Harold
16:34:56 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:34:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:34:57 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:34:59 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell
16:35:00 <Zakim> -ghallmar
16:35:01 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:35:02 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:35:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, MichaelKifer, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, ghallmar, APaschke, AxelPolleres
16:35:09 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:35:15 <ChrisW> Regrets: JosDeBruijn HassanAitKaci
16:35:23 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:35:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:36:33 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:36:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:37:08 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:37:23 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:37:24 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:37:24 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:37:25 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, MichaelKifer, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, ghallmar, APaschke, AxelPolleres
16:44:41 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has left #rif
17:49:52 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
19:05:33 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
19:05:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html sandro