IRC log of rif on 2009-10-13
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:56:46 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rif
- 14:56:46 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-irc
- 14:57:11 [ChrisW]
- ChrisW has joined #rif
- 14:58:03 [ChrisW]
- sandro - did you set up the channel already?
- 14:58:08 [sandro]
- no
- 14:58:15 [sandro]
- er, depends what you mean.
- 14:58:27 [AxelPolleres]
- I'd have some AOB, but can only dial in later: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0084.html, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Oct/0017.html
- 14:58:28 [ChrisW]
- zakim, this will be rif
- 14:58:28 [Zakim]
- ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
- 14:58:34 [ChrisW]
- Chair: Chris Welty
- 14:58:43 [ChrisW]
- Meeting: RIF Telecon 13-Oct-09
- 14:58:54 [ChrisW]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Oct/0012.html
- 14:59:01 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:59:01 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
- 14:59:13 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 15:00:39 [MoZ]
- MoZ has joined #rif
- 15:01:02 [mdean]
- mdean has joined #rif
- 15:01:49 [Zakim]
- SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
- 15:01:56 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Dean
- 15:01:59 [DaveReynolds]
- DaveReynolds has joined #rif
- 15:02:24 [MichaelKifer]
- MichaelKifer has joined #rif
- 15:02:42 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 15:02:47 [ChrisW]
- zakim, ibm is temporarily me
- 15:02:47 [Zakim]
- +ChrisW; got it
- 15:02:58 [Zakim]
- +??P39
- 15:03:03 [Zakim]
- +Sandro
- 15:03:07 [StellaMitchell]
- StellaMitchell has joined #rif
- 15:03:23 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Kifer
- 15:03:54 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 15:03:54 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ChrisW, DaveReynolds, Sandro, Michael_Kifer
- 15:03:56 [Zakim]
- +Stella_Mitchell
- 15:04:14 [ChrisW]
- Scribe: MichaelKifer
- 15:04:24 [ChrisW]
- zakim, Michael_Kifer is MichaelKifer
- 15:04:24 [Zakim]
- +MichaelKifer; got it
- 15:05:13 [ChrisW]
- MInutes from last telecon: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Sep/att-0118/RIF-minutes-29-sep-2009.html
- 15:05:23 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept minutes of last telecon
- 15:05:30 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept minutes of last telecon
- 15:05:56 [ChrisW]
- axel, remind us when you join about your OB
- 15:06:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]
- LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
- 15:06:09 [APaschke]
- APaschke has joined #rif
- 15:06:15 [ChrisW]
- Topic: Liason
- 15:06:37 [Zakim]
- +Leora_Morgenstern
- 15:06:49 [Zakim]
- +[NRCC]
- 15:06:57 [Zakim]
- +??P60
- 15:07:23 [Harold]
- zakim, [NRCC] is me
- 15:07:23 [Zakim]
- +Harold; got it
- 15:07:37 [sandro]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/
- 15:08:40 [MichaelKifer]
- Chris: new WG called RDB2RDF (mapping relational DBs to RDF/OWL)
- 15:09:18 [MichaelKifer]
- Sandro: Someone from our group should join RDB2RDF to show them the light.
- 15:09:33 [DaveReynolds]
- Charter says: "The mapping language SHOULD use W3C RIF whenever a rule engine is needed in the mapping language"
- 15:10:10 [MichaelKifer]
- Cris: perhaps BLD or some small extension can do all what RDB2RDF might ever want.
- 15:10:14 [ChrisW]
- Topic: action review
- 15:10:40 [ChrisW]
- close action-904
- 15:10:40 [trackbot]
- ACTION-904 Try to dig up XML RIF store closed
- 15:11:02 [Gary_Hallmark]
- Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
- 15:11:42 [Zakim]
- +ghallmar
- 15:12:09 [ChrisW]
- Topic: Public comments
- 15:12:28 [APaschke]
- Zakim, ??P60 is me
- 15:12:28 [Zakim]
- +APaschke; got it
- 15:12:43 [APaschke]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:12:43 [Zakim]
- APaschke should now be muted
- 15:12:50 [ChrisW]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_WL2
- 15:13:14 [ChrisW]
- action: Chris to send http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_WL2
- 15:13:14 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-929 - Send http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_WL2 [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-10-20].
- 15:14:09 [ChrisW]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0006.html
- 15:17:43 [ChrisW]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html
- 15:18:37 [ChrisW]
- action: michael to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html
- 15:18:37 [trackbot]
- Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - michael
- 15:18:37 [trackbot]
- Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msintek, mkifer, merdmann)
- 15:18:48 [ChrisW]
- action: mkifer to look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html
- 15:18:49 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-930 - Look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2009Sep/0009.html [on Michael Kifer - due 2009-10-20].
- 15:19:27 [ChrisW]
- TOPIC: Publicity
- 15:20:41 [Harold]
- Alexandre Riazanov just wrote:
- 15:20:51 [Harold]
- 1. A converter from RIF BLD to the TPTP format. This will allow
- 15:20:51 [Harold]
- using all the TPTP reasoners. I already have a working implementation,
- 15:20:51 [Harold]
- although it does not deal will External terms and atoms yet.
- 15:20:58 [Harold]
- 2. Support for the new TPTP format in VampirePrime. It already works
- 15:20:58 [Harold]
- for proof search, and soon I will restore the support of query answering.
- 15:20:58 [Harold]
- In particular, the generation of schematic answers over RDB will be supported.
- 15:22:10 [Harold]
- http://www.cs.miami.edu/~tptp/
- 15:26:06 [MichaelKifer]
- Implementation of BLD: Ontoprise, BBN
- 15:26:49 [MichaelKifer]
- An initial FLD dialect for SILK at the end of October.
- 15:29:31 [Zakim]
- +AxelPolleres
- 15:32:25 [AxelPolleres]
- 'd have some AOB, but can only dial in later: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009OctDec/0084.html, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Oct/0017.html
- 15:32:26 [ChrisW]
- Topic: SPARQL licason
- 15:33:08 [MichaelKifer]
- 2nd FLD dialect from Stony Brook: DLD with ASP semantics.
- 15:34:22 [AxelPolleres]
- At the moment, we use:
- 15:34:22 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#Simple
- 15:34:23 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#RDF
- 15:34:23 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#RDFS
- 15:34:23 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#D
- 15:34:24 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#OWL-DL
- 15:34:25 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#OWL-Full
- 15:39:26 [ChrisW]
- TOPIC: Test Cases
- 15:41:45 [MichaelKifer]
- Review of RDF combination subclass test cases
- 15:43:14 [MichaelKifer]
- Discussion of what it means to pass a negative entailment case.
- 15:47:10 [MichaelKifer]
- Chris: passing a negative test case means failure to derive.
- 15:48:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
- q
- 15:49:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
- q+
- 15:49:35 [MichaelKifer]
- Leora: non-passing any of the test case = non-conformance
- 15:50:00 [ChrisW]
- ack LeoraMorgenstern
- 15:50:04 [APaschke]
- otherwise the test cases would not make sense
- 15:50:18 [StellaMitchell]
- A conformant RIF consumer should report that the conclusion is not entailed by the premises, should not report that the answer is undecided, and must not report that the conclusion is entailed by the premises.
- 15:50:20 [MichaelKifer]
- Passing all of them != conformance -- just means the implementation is "looking good".
- 15:52:36 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass
- 15:52:48 [APaschke]
- +1
- 15:52:53 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass
- 15:52:54 [mdean]
- +1
- 15:53:05 [sandro]
- sandro: that "should not" is kind of hard to understand. I'd prefer something like, "If no answer is determined, UNDECIDED" is the right answer. One SHOULD try to determine an answer."
- 15:53:07 [MichaelKifer]
- By the way, no engine cat always tell that something does not follow, since BLD is only semi-decidable.
- 15:53:41 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_2
- 15:53:50 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_2
- 15:54:01 [StellaMitchell]
- +1
- 15:54:05 [APaschke]
- +1
- 15:54:08 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_2
- 15:55:05 [AxelPolleres]
- any reason why the non-conclusion is red?
- 15:55:15 [AxelPolleres]
- ... in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_3
- 15:55:18 [AxelPolleres]
- ?
- 15:55:26 [StellaMitchell]
- to draw attention to the fact that it is not entailed
- 15:56:58 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_3
- 15:57:14 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_3
- 15:57:22 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 15:57:41 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_4
- 15:57:47 [MichaelKifer]
- MK: unrelated to these test cases, we need to resolve the semantic problems with the RDF/OWL combination, which was discussed in September.
- 15:59:16 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_4
- 15:59:25 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_4
- 16:01:49 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_5
- 16:02:04 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_5
- 16:02:43 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_6
- 16:02:58 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_SubClass_6
- 16:03:25 [ChrisW]
- close action-848
- 16:03:25 [trackbot]
- ACTION-848 Review RDF Combination subclass test cases closed
- 16:04:33 [ChrisW]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NestedListsAreNotFlatLists
- 16:06:01 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NestedListsAreNotFlatLists
- 16:06:07 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NestedListsAreNotFlatLists
- 16:06:20 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NestedListsAreNotFlatLists
- 16:06:39 [APaschke]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 16:06:39 [Zakim]
- APaschke should no longer be muted
- 16:06:55 [ChrisW]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/NotAssertRetract
- 16:08:03 [ChrisW]
- close action-849
- 16:08:03 [trackbot]
- ACTION-849 Review NestedLists and NotAssertRetract test cases closed
- 16:08:03 [APaschke]
- yes, it is obsolte
- 16:08:28 [sandro]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/MalformedLists
- 16:09:36 [APaschke]
- Zakim, mute me
- 16:09:36 [Zakim]
- APaschke should now be muted
- 16:12:45 [Harold]
- The terminology was changed: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Terms. 4. List terms.
- 16:13:48 [Harold]
- "Open lists are usually written using the following: List(t1 ... tm | t)."
- 16:15:56 [sandro]
- renamed to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OpenLists
- 16:16:05 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OpenLists
- 16:16:09 [sandro]
- +1
- 16:16:15 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/OpenLists
- 16:18:03 [MichaelKifer]
- btw, we also need to change the contents page http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case to affect the above change
- 16:18:21 [sandro]
- Why, MichaelKifer? Categories are automatic.
- 16:18:47 [sandro]
- (Category pages are built by the wiki based on category tags in the pages.)
- 16:19:03 [MichaelKifer]
- Chris also sees this problem
- 16:20:21 [ChrisW]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify
- 16:20:33 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify
- 16:20:40 [sandro]
- +1
- 16:20:43 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify
- 16:22:05 [ChrisW]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_loop
- 16:22:43 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_loop
- 16:22:58 [sandro]
- +1
- 16:23:00 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_loop
- 16:24:05 [APaschke]
- PRD presentation syntax
- 16:24:06 [APaschke]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Presentation_syntax_.28Informative.29
- 16:24:14 [sandro]
- DaveReynolds: Uhh, shouldn't this have Externals ?
- 16:25:23 [APaschke]
- FORMULA ::= IRIMETA? 'External' '(' Atom ')'
- 16:26:15 [APaschke]
- TERM ::= IRIMETA? (Const | Var | List | 'External' '(' Expr ')')
- 16:26:38 [AxelPolleres]
- so this is not an external function here?
- 16:26:44 [MichaelKifer]
- Gary: external is optional in terms
- 16:26:46 [AxelPolleres]
- confused
- 16:26:54 [APaschke]
- presentation syntax of PRD is in section 9
- 16:27:24 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 16:28:03 [AxelPolleres]
- and there is still: Name ::= UNICODESTRING
- 16:28:10 [AxelPolleres]
- ack me
- 16:28:48 [ChrisW]
- action: stella to send CSMA fixes for PRD EBNF
- 16:28:49 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-931 - Send CSMA fixes for PRD EBNF [on Stella Mitchell - due 2009-10-20].
- 16:28:49 [AxelPolleres]
- christian might want to have a look at the recent EBNF changes in FLD/BLD/DTB in that respect as well...
- 16:28:53 [MichaelKifer]
- EBNF says external is mandatory, which clashes with the text. But EBNF is only informative.
- 16:29:25 [AxelPolleres]
- even if only informative, guess we'd prefer to have it consitent ;-)
- 16:29:42 [sandro]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_noloop
- 16:30:04 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: extend meeting for 5 mins
- 16:30:09 [AxelPolleres]
- 0, need to run
- 16:30:11 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: extend meeting for 5 mins
- 16:30:13 [MichaelKifer]
- I'll have to leave after 5 mins sharp
- 16:30:46 [Zakim]
- -AxelPolleres
- 16:31:09 [Harold]
- I think we should not change External(...) being mandatory at this stage.
- 16:32:31 [Harold]
- (This will also help to keep BLD and PRD as compatible as possible.)
- 16:33:37 [MichaelKifer]
- But in BLD External is mandatory for external functions and builtins.
- 16:34:27 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_noloop
- 16:34:40 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Modify_noloop
- 16:34:45 [Harold]
- Yes, thats why it should also stay mandatory for external functions and builtins in PRD.
- 16:34:54 [Zakim]
- -APaschke
- 16:34:55 [Zakim]
- -Harold
- 16:34:56 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:34:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
- 16:34:57 [Zakim]
- -Leora_Morgenstern
- 16:34:59 [Zakim]
- -Stella_Mitchell
- 16:35:00 [Zakim]
- -ghallmar
- 16:35:01 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Dean
- 16:35:02 [ChrisW]
- zakim, list attendees
- 16:35:02 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, MichaelKifer, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, ghallmar, APaschke, AxelPolleres
- 16:35:09 [Zakim]
- -DaveReynolds
- 16:35:15 [ChrisW]
- Regrets: JosDeBruijn HassanAitKaci
- 16:35:23 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:35:23 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
- 16:36:33 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:36:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
- 16:37:08 [Zakim]
- -MichaelKifer
- 16:37:23 [Zakim]
- -ChrisW
- 16:37:24 [Zakim]
- -Sandro
- 16:37:24 [Zakim]
- SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
- 16:37:25 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Mike_Dean, ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, Stella_Mitchell, MichaelKifer, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, ghallmar, APaschke, AxelPolleres
- 16:44:41 [MichaelKifer]
- MichaelKifer has left #rif
- 17:49:52 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 19:05:33 [sandro]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 19:05:33 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/13-rif-minutes.html sandro