IRC log of xproc on 2009-10-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:09:03 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:09:04 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:09:04 [Norm]
Date: 8 Oct 2009
15:09:04 [Norm]
15:09:04 [Norm]
Meeting: 155
15:09:04 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:09:06 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:09:08 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:09:12 [Norm]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:09:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see PGrosso, Vojtech, Ht (muted), alexmilowski, Norm
15:09:22 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Paul, Vojtech, Henry, Alex
15:10:02 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:10:02 [Norm]
15:10:04 [Norm]
15:10:20 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:10:20 [Norm]
15:10:20 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:10:20 [Norm]
15:10:25 [Norm]
15:10:34 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 15 Oct 2009
15:10:41 [Norm]
Regrets: Mohamed
15:10:45 [Norm]
No regrets given.
15:11:23 [Norm]
Topic: Review of open issues
15:11:37 [Norm]
Henry gives regrets for 8 Oct
15:12:56 [Norm]
Topic: Review of open issues
15:12:58 [Norm]
15:13:29 [Norm]
Topic: 163: Output port may be connected to...
15:14:50 [Norm]
Vojtech: I wonder if err:XS0005 is clear in the case of compound steps.
15:16:14 [Norm]
Some discussion.
15:20:08 [Norm]
Norm: Unless there's a specific suggestion for how to improve the description of err:XS0005, I'm inclined to leave it.
15:20:11 [Norm]
No dissent heard.
15:20:27 [Norm]
Norm: I propose that that closes issue 163
15:20:31 [Norm]
15:21:01 [Norm]
Topic: Alternate CR draft, replacing "binding" with "connection" in relation to input/output ports
15:22:32 [Norm]
Norm explains what he did wrt replacing "binding" with "connection".
15:22:36 [Norm]
Vojtech: I think it's an improvement.
15:22:56 [Norm]
Henry: I'm in favor of the change without having looked at it.
15:23:16 [Norm]
Henry: It makes sense and I trust you to have gotten it nearly right, so I'm not fussed.
15:23:34 [Norm]
Norm: Is there anyone who wants more time?
15:23:38 [Norm]
None heard.
15:23:47 [Norm]
Norm: I propose that we adopt the alternate wording as the new status quo.
15:23:56 [Norm]
15:24:13 [Norm]
Vojtech: With this change, I think we should update the schemas and DTDs.
15:24:15 [Norm]
Norm: yes.
15:24:37 [Norm]
Henry: I'll fix the schemas
15:25:00 [Norm]
Norm: I'll fix the RELAX NG.
15:25:16 [Norm]
Topic: Issue 161: Concerns about forwards-compatible mode
15:25:19 [Norm]
Norm summarizes.
15:28:27 [Norm]
Henry: How likely is it that people are going to try to do this?
15:28:56 [Norm]
...If it's something that's going to happen a lot is going to be compromised to allow something that isn't going to happen a lot then I'm opposed.
15:29:30 [Norm]
...It seems to me that most of the benefit of what you just said would be to simply change the error from static to dynamic.
15:30:13 [Norm]
Norm: The wrinkle is you only get one declaration.
15:32:50 [Norm]
Vojtech: How would this influence the V1 pipelines. Suppose I have a V1 step and I simply use p:identity and I intentionally refer to an output port called foo.
15:32:58 [Norm]
Norm: That would still be an error.
15:37:34 [Norm]
Vojtech: If we decide to introduce some changes, this is something we can test.
15:38:08 [Norm]
Alex: Your saying it would be a dynamic error to evaluate a step that contains unknown children or attributes.
15:38:17 [Norm]
...But your saying unknown inputs/outputs have a well-defined behavior.
15:41:09 [Norm]
Norm: Explains his rationale again, about the fact that there's only one declaratin.
15:41:36 [Norm]
Alex: That's a value judgement about how important the output is. In that case, it would be nice to know that the output was non-critical.
15:42:09 [Norm]
Henry: Add into the mix the fact that we have a story about what you're allowed to do without changing the name of the step.
15:42:49 [Norm]
...I think Alex's observation is correct that someone may refactor the structure of a step so that the fundamental output is split across two ports.
15:43:25 [Norm]
...The correct answer there is that we have to extend our notion of what amounts to a category of backwards compatible changes.
15:43:48 [Norm]
...At the moment it only contains optional options, but we could extend it to include collateral inputs and outputs.
15:44:01 [Norm]
...So if you're going to make a non-benign change, you must use a new step name.
15:44:29 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I think that would help.
15:45:15 [Norm]
Henry: I think it's the usual story, Norm you should write up an editor's draft for us to review.
15:46:15 [Norm]
Norm: I'm tempted to delay publication of our interim CR draft by at least a week so that we can resolve this.
15:46:31 [Norm]
Alex: I'd prefer to resolve this first.
15:47:15 [alexmilowski]
(sorry, I have to go. I have an appointment at 9am.)
15:47:25 [Zakim]
15:47:50 [Norm]
Vojtech: There's the related question of what is the default version.
15:48:58 [Norm]
Norm: I think if you don't import a library, you get what the processor does.
15:52:04 [Norm]
More discussion about what to do with input/output ports
15:52:43 [Norm]
Norm: I'm happy to make it a dynamic error to attempt to read from the port in the V1 case, it just looks like more work.
15:53:50 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to promote the alternate text draft to the status quo.
15:54:01 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to produce an alternate draft with the proposed versioning changes.
15:54:05 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
15:54:20 [Norm]
Norm: I will be going to TPAC.
15:54:28 [Norm]
Norm: Welcome back Vojtech!
15:54:56 [Norm]
15:54:59 [Norm]
RRSAgent, set logs world visible
15:55:00 [Zakim]
15:55:02 [Zakim]
15:55:02 [Zakim]
15:55:03 [Zakim]
15:55:04 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
15:55:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, Vojtech, Ht, PGrosso, alexmilowski
15:55:06 [Norm]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:55:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
15:55:16 [PGrosso]
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16:14:44 [ht]
Norm -- I've updated xproc.{xsd,dtd} - - cvs update at your
16:14:47 [ht]
16:31:48 [Norm]
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18:15:33 [Norm]
RRSAgent, bye
18:15:33 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
18:15:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to promote the alternate text draft to the status quo. [1]
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recorded in
18:15:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to produce an alternate draft with the proposed versioning changes. [2]
18:15:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in