IRC log of core on 2009-10-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:47:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #core
18:47:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-irc
18:47:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #core
18:47:40 [aphillip]
zakim, this will be I18N
18:47:40 [Zakim]
ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
18:47:49 [aphillip]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
18:47:58 [aphillip]
Meeting: Internationalization Core Teleconference
18:48:02 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
18:48:06 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
18:48:10 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
18:48:27 [aphillip]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Oct/0002.html
18:48:34 [aphillip]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:48:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
18:52:07 [David]
David has joined #core
18:55:12 [andrewc]
andrewc has joined #core
19:00:00 [r12a]
r12a has joined #core
19:00:13 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()3:00PM has now started
19:00:15 [fsasaki]
fsasaki has joined #core
19:00:19 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard please
19:00:19 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
19:00:21 [Zakim]
+aphillips
19:00:49 [Zakim]
+??P3
19:01:06 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard please
19:01:06 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
19:01:08 [Zakim]
+Richard
19:01:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aaaa
19:01:13 [Zakim]
- +1.650.253.aaaa
19:02:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aabb
19:02:22 [r12a]
zakim, +1.650 is Mark
19:02:22 [Zakim]
+Mark; got it
19:02:39 [Zakim]
+??P6
19:03:08 [Zakim]
+YvesS
19:03:38 [YvesS]
YvesS has joined #core
19:04:35 [mark]
mark has joined #core
19:05:34 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda and Minutes
19:05:45 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
19:05:56 [aphillip]
Richard: respond on our behalf to CSS on ruby issue
19:06:04 [aphillip]
addison: set up document edit transition with dan for ws-i18n
19:06:17 [aphillip]
addison: make a table of date changes for DST
19:06:23 [aphillip]
in progress
19:06:28 [Zakim]
+??P8
19:06:40 [aphillip]
zakim, ??P8 is andrewc
19:06:40 [Zakim]
+andrewc; got it
19:06:41 [aphillip]
addison: ping martin about iri wg activity
19:06:52 [aphillip]
addison: set up an introductory call or meeting with DOM Events folks to discuss
19:07:12 [aphillip]
all: look at XForms 1.1 PR for internationalization issues, especially "input mode" at the back
19:07:38 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
19:07:51 [aphillip]
Unicode 5.2 was released
19:07:57 [aphillip]
(and there was much rejoicing)
19:08:08 [aphillip]
IUC33 is next week
19:08:40 [aphillip]
likely no call next week
19:09:09 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Xmllang_and_css
19:09:15 [aphillip]
richard working on update to document describing styling via CSS (particularly with language info)
19:09:18 [r12a]
Using CSS selectors with xml:lang
19:09:22 [aphillip]
... see above
19:09:43 [aphillip]
... has worked fingers to bone figuring out how xml:lang and lang work with CSS
19:09:57 [aphillip]
... please look it over and send comments
19:10:27 [aphillip]
Topic: UAX #46
19:10:33 [aphillip]
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr46/
19:10:57 [aphillip]
Mark: related to IDNA...
19:10:58 [Zakim]
-YvesS
19:11:30 [aphillip]
... and IDNA2003 contains rules for exchanging things in DNS with chinese, arabic, etc.
19:11:36 [aphillip]
... IDNA2008 is in process
19:11:45 [aphillip]
... may finish this year or early next
19:11:52 [aphillip]
... and there are incompatibilities between the two
19:12:04 [aphillip]
... which means that some old domain names no longer work
19:12:16 [aphillip]
... and some in 2008 will won't work with 2003 implementations
19:12:21 [aphillip]
... 2008 has many good things
19:12:40 [aphillip]
... but there are four serious incompatibilities, which uax46 calls
19:12:56 [aphillip]
... deviations
19:13:03 [aphillip]
... has implications for spoofing and compat
19:13:11 [aphillip]
... Unicode consortium is concerned
19:13:25 [aphillip]
... working with browser vendors to see if these incompatibilities can be dealt with
19:13:49 [aphillip]
... old UAX#46 was put on hold hoping IETF WG would deal with it
19:13:55 [Zakim]
+YvesS
19:14:02 [aphillip]
... but they didn't, so this doc revived
19:14:21 [aphillip]
... can see in the link
19:14:28 [mark]
http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/idna.jsp?a=3%96BB.at%0D%0A8%A1og.com%0D%0AOC%88BB.at%0D%0Afass.de%0D%0Afa3%9F.de%0D%0Af3%A43%9F.de%0D%0ASch3%A4ffer.de%0D%0A%EFC%A1%EFC%A2%EFC%A3%E3%83B%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%0D%0A%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%EFD%A1co%EFD%A1jp%0D%0AxC%81C%A7%0D%0AxC%A7C%81%0D%0AI%E2%99%A5NY%0D%0AE%92F%8CEBEFF%82%0D%0A%EFB%8B%EFA%AE%EFA%91%EFB2
19:15:49 [aphillip]
Mark: links shows demo with various punycode transforms
19:16:53 [mark]
ȡog.com
19:17:41 [aphillip]
... the "d" like character introduced in Unicode after IDNA 2003
19:17:42 [mark]
öbb.at
19:18:08 [aphillip]
... if lower case works in all cases
19:18:12 [mark]
faß.de
19:18:47 [aphillip]
... under 2003 remaps to "fass", but encoded as punycode under 2008
19:19:10 [mark]
日本｡co｡jp
19:19:41 [aphillip]
.... ideographic full stop fails under 2008
19:19:53 [aphillip]
... 2008 allows for pre-processing of the text in a domain name
19:19:57 [aphillip]
... called "custom mapping"
19:20:09 [aphillip]
... could make them all succeed (or make worse)
19:20:25 [fsasaki]
q+ to ask if there is any registered label with ideographic full stop character
19:20:41 [aphillip]
... any *user* can do custom mapping
19:21:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:21:25 [aphillip]
q
19:21:27 [fsasaki]
felix: just on IRC due to bad sound: is any registered label with ideographic full stop character, so does the missing ideographic full stop hurt any existing data?
19:21:33 [aphillip]
ack felix
19:22:02 [aphillip]
Mark: full stop treated same as a period
19:22:06 [aphillip]
... but no longer
19:22:25 [fsasaki]
felix: tx for the explanation
19:22:37 [mark]
ＡＢＣ
19:22:45 [aphillip]
(full width characters)
19:23:18 [aphillip]
... fail under 2008 but treated as ASCII in 2003
19:23:45 [aphillip]
... and these occur *frequently* in actual web pages (based on Google inspection of pages)
19:23:51 [aphillip]
... due to IME nature
19:24:09 [aphillip]
Mark: proposal is to bridge gap by making stuff continue to work in 2008 that worked in 2003
19:24:17 [mark]
ÖBB.at öbb.at fass.de faß.de fäß.de Schäffer.de ＡＢＣ・日本 日本｡co｡jp x̧́ x̧́ I♥NY Βόλος ﻋﺮﺑﻲ
19:24:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:25:50 [mark]
\u0001.com
19:26:30 [aphillip]
Mark: what to do about four deviation characters
19:26:32 [mark]
faß.de
19:26:38 [aphillip]
... such as estzett
19:26:50 [aphillip]
... good reasons for both distinct and same treatment
19:27:13 [aphillip]
... microsoft proposed to say that implementation (registrar) must bundle them
19:27:28 [aphillip]
... this is what UAX#46 recommends
19:27:39 [aphillip]
... then it'd work with any registrar
19:28:15 [aphillip]
David: so bundling means that they would register both "fass" and "fa"
19:28:32 [aphillip]
Mark: yes
19:29:00 [aphillip]
... two cases: "good" registrar will bundle
19:29:05 [aphillip]
.. and remapping won't matter
19:29:11 [aphillip]
... "bad" registrar won't bundle
19:29:21 [aphillip]
... so two domains exist
19:29:34 [fsasaki]
q+ to ask the policy of DENIC for eszett - is their policy good or bad?
19:29:36 [aphillip]
... so don't support character
19:29:53 [aphillip]
... so use 2003 version of behavior
19:30:29 [fsasaki]
s/DENIC /DENIC (german registry)/
19:30:45 [aphillip]
basically: generate only *one* version for a given input
19:30:56 [aphillip]
... even though mutliple outcomes are possible
19:31:19 [aphillip]
Mark: one of the main reasons for this is so users can see in browser
19:31:45 [aphillip]
... users don't like transform of name for display (remapping)
19:31:51 [aphillip]
... only transform on wire
19:32:07 [aphillip]
Richard: btw, we have a bunch of tests that show what people see
19:32:23 [fsasaki]
q-
19:32:31 [aphillip]
DENIC bundles
19:32:55 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/tests/test-idn-display-0
19:33:09 [aphillip]
Mark: other thing concerned with...
19:33:18 [aphillip]
... IDNA very concerned with TLDs
19:33:29 [aphillip]
... but in reality there are 1000's of registrars
19:33:47 [aphillip]
... e.g. google registers subdomains in google
19:33:52 [aphillip]
... or blogspot
19:34:33 [mark]
http://ɓlog.blogspot.com/
19:35:06 [aphillip]
"xn--log-nsb.blogspot.com"
19:35:15 [aphillip]
so many many "actual" registrars
19:35:37 [aphillip]
... belief is that "actual" registrars won't know to do anything about 2008
19:36:24 [aphillip]
... a long time to replace browsers
19:36:38 [aphillip]
... so how many on 2008 v. 2003
19:36:52 [aphillip]
... and that's what TR46 is
19:36:58 [aphillip]
... would like to inform you
19:37:07 [aphillip]
... and also think W3C should have a position on this
19:37:35 [aphillip]
... so HTML5 and XLink might need to be influenced
19:37:56 [aphillip]
Mark: UTC will consider this, may publish as early as November... or may be longer
19:38:20 [aphillip]
... needs some wordsmithing, although that won't influence decision by UTC
19:38:56 [aphillip]
richard: do you know what HTML5 is doing about this?
19:39:09 [aphillip]
Mark: don't know, but believe that it is just conformant to 2003 at present
19:39:43 [aphillip]
richard: what we really want is everyone to implement just this one way of doing it
19:39:51 [aphillip]
Mark: think we have a lot of supprot from browser vendors
19:40:03 [aphillip]
... best if everyone does the same way
19:40:18 [fsasaki]
felix: again just on IRC (sorry), propose to put Thomas Roessler (W3C) into the loop, who is following IDNA and also ICANN actions also to some extend IIRC
19:40:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:42:27 [aphillip]
addison: pub together or a pointer or do something to charmod-iri....
19:42:46 [aphillip]
Mark: ICU will implement TR46
19:43:24 [aphillip]
Mark: have a followup in a couple of weeks?
19:43:38 [aphillip]
ACTION: all: review UAX#46 draft for review in two weeks
19:43:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
19:43:59 [mark]
mark@macchiato.com
19:44:06 [aphillip]
Mark: send comments offline to above address
19:44:25 [aphillip]
Topic: Language Tag Article Approval
19:45:05 [aphillip]
Topic: HTML5 Review
19:45:17 [aphillip]
In particular Hixie's remarks: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2009OctDec/0001.html
19:46:40 [aphillip]
ACTION: addison: reply to Hixie in support of text at end of thread
19:46:51 [aphillip]
Topic: Language Tag Article Approval
19:46:59 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags (new article) http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/temp.php (updated article)
19:47:25 [aphillip]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2009Oct/0001.html
19:49:23 [aphillip]
Mark: my concern is that people might use 'cmn' instead of 'zh'
19:49:40 [aphillip]
... will mess themselves up,b ecause 'zh' means, for all practical purposes Mandarin
19:50:17 [aphillip]
... fear is that they won't see the squirms that say otherwise
19:50:25 [aphillip]
... after reading first two sentences
19:51:02 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags#extlangsubtags
19:51:11 [aphillip]
There is always a 3-letter subtag that is equivalent to any language+extlang pairing. For example, zh-cmn (Mandarin Chinese) can also be expressed with the single subtag cmn.
19:52:19 [aphillip]
Mark: so richard's suggestion good
19:52:29 [aphillip]
... use more specific tags in most cases, with some important exceptions
19:52:56 [aphillip]
Mark: then follow with "there are however"
19:53:14 [aphillip]
... and follow with "there are situations where you should still use"
19:53:21 [aphillip]
... and move the sentence on Macrolanguage searching to end
19:53:40 [aphillip]
addison expresses happiness with that
19:54:54 [aphillip]
Mark: in decision two, change examples from 'cmn' to 'yue'
19:55:30 [fsasaki]
Felix: (on IRC) Sorry, have to leave at the top of the hour. My comments are editorial and proposals for "would be nice to have" additions, not "this is wrong" comments. So if you want to publish, please go ahead, the articles are good.
19:57:22 [aphillip]
addison: tag "Chinese" as 'zh', including all Mandarin
19:57:36 [aphillip]
... all other Sinitic languages should use their specific subtags and not use 'zh'
19:59:09 [aphillip]
Mark: for predominant form, use the macrolanguage
19:59:18 [aphillip]
... including Malay, for example
19:59:43 [aphillip]
... ISO distinguishes Filipino and Tagalog... also Twi and Akan
19:59:59 [aphillip]
... there are a number of issues with false distinctions
20:00:24 [aphillip]
... "be consistent" and "try to be consistent with everyone else"
20:00:32 [Zakim]
-Felix
20:00:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:01:08 [mark]
http://cldr.unicode.org/development/design-proposals/languages-to-show-for-translation
20:06:13 [aphillip]
Mark: case sensitivity in file names can be important in file systems that are case sensitive
20:06:34 [r12a]
where it is important, consider using bcp 47 approach
20:07:21 [aphillip]
(actually bcp47 has a canonicalization section on case)
20:07:26 [aphillip]
Mark: ordering of variants
20:09:23 [r12a]
note, any particular recipient of the tags may or may not take the order as important
20:10:53 [aphillip]
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/rfc5646.html#canonical
20:14:51 [aphillip]
maybe a variant faq
20:16:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:16:57 [aphillip]
richard: publish for wide review with changes?
20:17:08 [aphillip]
chair: any opposed?
20:17:11 [aphillip]
none opposed
20:17:22 [aphillip]
ACTION: richard: publish language tag articles for wide review
20:17:32 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
20:17:35 [r12a]
after changes discussion so far
20:18:16 [Zakim]
-andrewc
20:18:26 [Zakim]
-YvesS
20:18:30 [Zakim]
-aphillips
20:18:32 [Zakim]
-Richard
20:18:34 [Zakim]
-mark
20:18:37 [aphillip]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:18:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:18:43 [aphillip]
zakim, bye
20:18:43 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were aphillips, David, Richard, +1.650.253.aaaa, +1.650.253.aabb, Felix, YvesS, mark, andrewc
20:18:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #core
20:18:51 [andrewc]
andrewc has left #core
20:18:59 [aphillip]
RRSagent, make minutes
20:18:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-minutes.html aphillip
20:19:04 [aphillip]
RRSagent, bye
20:19:04 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-actions.rdf :
20:19:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: all: review UAX#46 draft for review in two weeks [1]
20:19:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-irc#T19-43-38
20:19:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: reply to Hixie in support of text at end of thread [2]
20:19:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-irc#T19-46-40
20:19:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: richard: publish language tag articles for wide review [3]
20:19:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/10/07-core-irc#T20-17-22