12:59:52 RRSAgent has joined #swxg 12:59:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc 12:59:54 RRSAgent, make logs world 12:59:56 Zakim, this will be 7994 12:59:56 ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 12:59:57 Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference 12:59:57 Date: 30 September 2009 13:00:07 Hi guys, I'm sorry I'm going to have to miss this one, there seems to be no signal at all where I'm at today. 13:00:35 melvster1 has joined #swxg 13:00:37 no problem tpa 13:00:45 did you check in with henry story yet? 13:00:54 hhalpin: we're supposed to do it sometime this week 13:01:23 petef has joined #swxg 13:01:24 hhalpin: we should also talk at some point, off-weekly call and confer about the use cases and the resulting document we're aiming for? 13:01:45 I guess we'll figure that out at a more convenient time, I'll be emailing you. 13:01:45 INC_SWXG()9:00AM has now started 13:01:51 +??P7 13:01:53 -??P7 13:01:53 INC_SWXG()9:00AM has ended 13:01:53 Attendees were 13:01:56 INC_SWXG()9:00AM has now started 13:01:56 ? 13:02:02 + +34.91.549.aaaa 13:02:20 + +0797094aabb 13:02:22 zakim, aaaa is me 13:02:23 +jsalvachua; got it 13:02:32 +??P10 13:02:42 zakim, ??P10 is me 13:02:42 +rreck; got it 13:02:48 caribou has joined #swxg 13:02:55 +FabGandon 13:02:57 +Carine 13:02:59 zakim, aabb is me 13:02:59 +petef; got it 13:03:04 +??P13 13:03:06 +[IPcaller] 13:03:13 Zakim, ??P13 is hhalpin 13:03:13 +hhalpin; got it 13:03:15 MacTed has joined #swxg 13:03:35 bblfish has joined #swxg 13:03:41 zakim, ??P13 is me 13:03:41 I already had ??P13 as hhalpin, melvster 13:03:42 +OpenLink_Software 13:03:53 -hhalpin 13:03:59 Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed 13:03:59 +MacTed; got it 13:04:03 Zakim, mute me 13:04:03 MacTed should now be muted 13:04:12 hhalpin: i think you got the wrong phone handle 13:04:21 ill redail in 13:04:25 ? 13:04:49 i think i was ??P13 13:04:57 i hung up and it said -hhalpin 13:05:11 -[IPcaller] 13:05:20 +bblfish 13:05:28 hi 13:05:35 +??P14 13:05:46 zakim, ??P14 is me 13:05:46 +melvster; got it 13:05:57 + +1.617.588.aacc - is perhaps Orri 13:06:01 ? 13:06:02 +??P11 13:06:03 zakim, ??p11 is me 13:06:03 +AndreaP; got it 13:06:15 Zakim, +1.617.588.aacc is hhalpin 13:06:15 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.588.aacc' 13:06:20 + +0798919aadd 13:06:21 Zakim, aacc is hhalpin 13:06:22 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' 13:06:31 zakim, 0798919aadd is me 13:06:31 Zakim, ??aacc is hhalpin 13:06:32 sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '0798919aadd' 13:06:34 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named '??aacc' 13:06:40 Zakim, 1571588aacc is hhalpin 13:06:40 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named '1571588aacc' 13:06:48 Zakim, 16171588aacc is hhalpin 13:06:48 sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named '16171588aacc' 13:06:52 zakim, aacc is hhalpin 13:06:52 sorry, petef, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' 13:06:54 -AndreaP 13:06:57 +Adam 13:07:06 zakim, aadd is me 13:07:06 +mischat; got it 13:07:08 +tinkster 13:07:12 zakim, mute me 13:07:12 mischat should now be muted 13:07:25 hello all 13:07:27 agenda+ Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-09-30T13:00-15:00Z 13:07:28 Zakim, who's on the call? 13:07:29 On the phone I see jsalvachua, petef, rreck, FabGandon, Carine, MacTed (muted), bblfish, melvster, Orri, mischat (muted), Adam, tinkster 13:07:35 Zakim, next agendum 13:07:35 agendum 6. "Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-09-30T13:00-15:00Z" taken up [from hhalpin] 13:07:44 zakim agenda+ General Organization 13:07:51 zakim, agenda+ General Organization 13:07:51 agendum 7 added 13:07:57 Zakim, Orri is hhalpin 13:07:57 +hhalpin; got it 13:08:04 zakim, agenda+ Invited Guest Invitations 13:08:04 agendum 8 added 13:08:13 zakim, agenda+ user stories 13:08:13 agendum 9 added 13:08:23 zakim agenda+ Invited Guest - Peter St. Andre on XMPP 13:08:46 i can scribe 13:08:50 scribe: mischat 13:08:53 chair: hhalpin 13:08:57 Zakim, who's on the phone? 13:08:58 On the phone I see jsalvachua, petef, rreck, FabGandon, Carine, MacTed (muted), bblfish, melvster, hhalpin, mischat (muted), Adam, tinkster 13:09:02 danbri has joined #swxg 13:09:09 ROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck 13:09:17 PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck 13:09:39 RESOLVED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck 13:09:40 +??P11 13:09:46 hajons has joined #swxg 13:09:47 PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. October 7th 13:09:48 zakim, ??P11 is danbri 13:09:48 +danbri; got it 13:09:50 zakim, mute me 13:09:50 rreck should now be muted 13:09:59 +1 meet again 13:10:05 Next Wed is Evan from OpenMicroblogging. 13:10:14 Also requested we move things 2 hours back if possible. 13:10:18 +1 13:10:18 evan request for 2 hours back 13:10:23 (back meaning forward :) 13:10:26 later 13:10:29 into the future 13:10:34 Moving meeting to 13:00UTC 13:10:38 back to the future :) 13:10:39 moving meeting to 13:00 UTC 13:10:48 Already 13:00 UTC 13:10:48 i support moving it 13:10:49 It's already 13:00 UTC. 13:10:53 move to 15:00 UTC 13:10:55 Moving meeting to 15:00UTC 13:10:59 everyone is confused around timezones anyhow, this time of year 13:11:02 If we don't get any objetions 13:11:02 +1 move meeting time to 15:00UTC 13:11:10 then move next meeting to 15:00UTC. 13:11:11 + +46.1.08.01.aaee 13:11:16 +1 13:11:17 I'm happy with 15:00 UTC for next week (and indeed, generally). 13:11:19 harry to ask the list this week, if no objections we move to 15:00 UTC 13:11:23 +1 13:11:32 no 13:11:34 RESOLVED: Unless objections from list, telecons moved to 15:00 UTC from now on. 13:11:34 are we expecting stpeter now? 13:11:35 problem 13:11:43 ok 13:11:49 +pchampin 13:11:51 Zakim, next agendum 13:11:51 agendum 7. "General Organization" taken up [from hhalpin] 13:11:55 bblfish, is that "no. problem." or "no problem." 13:12:00 Technical Plenary? 13:12:06 Whose going to technical plenary? 13:12:07 no problem. or +1 13:12:10 going 13:12:11 I should be going 13:12:13 i can't make it 13:12:14 not me 13:12:16 not me 13:12:18 not me 13:12:22 not me 13:12:23 not me ;( 13:12:25 not me 13:12:25 don't know yet 13:12:32 (i did talk to Kevin Marks about possibility of him talking; passed that on to harry/ian) 13:12:43 henry, fabien are going 13:12:46 you should register asap, the calendar is correct now. 13:12:49 I know you DKA 13:12:52 if people want to go they should register asap 13:12:54 and then's this open social web day. 13:13:01 AdamB has joined #swxg 13:13:06 +??P27 13:13:09 zakim, ??p27 is me 13:13:09 +AndreaP; got it 13:13:17 Is anyone going to Internet Identity Workshop? 13:13:22 not going to IIW 13:13:23 probably 13:13:23 Which is right afterwards... 13:13:33 which is right after the technical plenary 13:13:39 nope 13:13:39 ok just checking in... 13:13:43 not me 13:13:54 registration fees are going up for the IIW 13:14:05 so if you want to go then you should get on it asap 13:14:05 [CONTINUES] ACTION: DKA to summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread knowledge of these efforts among W3C members. 13:14:12 [CONTINUES] ACTION:Mischa to describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG. 13:14:19 Zakim, next agendum 13:14:20 agendum 8. "Invited Guest Invitations" taken up [from hhalpin] 13:14:32 Opera/Widgets/OpenSocial? 13:14:46 i will get mine done soon, I have been recovering from submitting thesis this last week 13:14:54 danbri is a technically a bad person :) 13:15:28 has anyone looked at the activity streams work ? 13:15:28 http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/ 13:15:29 -pchampin 13:15:32 I have had a brief look 13:15:40 me too 13:15:44 Happy to look deeper and perhaps write a summary for the wiki 13:15:51 hasn't danbri looked at it in the notube work ? 13:15:53 opensocial and activity streams are looking to align 13:16:01 I think it's definitely worth summarziing for the wiki and yes it is aligning to opensocial. 13:16:28 harry thinks it would be good for some to host a session on the activity streams work 13:16:53 ACTION: Harry to invite Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk 13:16:53 Created ACTION-92 - Invite Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-10-07]. 13:16:58 Do we have Chris Messina on the invite list already? 13:17:08 +pchampin 13:17:14 who spoke ? 13:17:20 petef 13:17:23 +1 for having it in the final report at least, and seems good to invite them to present 13:17:33 ACTION: petef to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina 13:17:33 Sorry, couldn't find user - petef 13:17:34 +1 to having on the final report 13:17:44 ACTION: pferne to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina 13:17:44 Created ACTION-93 - Look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [on Peter Ferne - due 2009-10-07]. 13:18:11 [CONTINUES] ACTION: cperey to book global lockbox as an invited speaker 13:18:13 i will get the mail out to the BBC persian people 13:18:22 please do :) 13:18:39 ACTION: mischat to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media 13:18:39 Sorry, couldn't find user - mischat 13:18:47 ACTION: mtuffield to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media 13:18:47 Sorry, couldn't find user - mtuffield 13:18:54 mtiffiel 13:18:58 spelt wrong 13:18:59 :) 13:19:06 swh's fault 13:19:11 ACTION: mtiffiel to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media 13:19:11 Created ACTION-94 - Invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2009-10-07]. 13:19:22 Zakim, next agendum 13:19:22 agendum 9. "user stories" taken up [from hhalpin] 13:19:23 +cperey 13:19:40 Quick note Christine on Open Social Web day? 13:19:51 re user stories, oshani is away today 13:20:00 oof http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests takes a while to load 13:20:17 cool! 13:20:20 Christine has talked to Dan, re : OPen Social Web day. Dan to add to the wiki, and will be setting up an eventbrite for the event 13:20:31 a conference call is scheduled for this coming friday 13:20:32 q+ 13:20:40 Zakim, ack bblfish 13:20:40 I see no one on the speaker queue 13:20:50 there is a need for some more marketing to happen 13:21:16 henry, just an email confirmation that the auditorium has been booked along with 13:21:18 good news! 13:21:18 cperey has joined #SWXG 13:21:23 projectors, wifi, and stuff 13:22:00 ? 13:22:04 harry had a question about the user stories, perhaps they are too complicated 13:22:20 it would nice to get user story doc done between TPAC 13:22:25 sorry before TPAC! 13:22:45 christine has taken a high level ID, so that the use cases can be clustered 13:22:59 is this work online? 13:23:10 high level concepts to classify the user stories 13:23:23 for organisational purposes 13:23:49 christine to check if she can get the document she was been working on online 13:23:50 please do 13:24:33 so christine will aim to share the structure she has built with the groups 13:24:43 yes 13:24:49 Goal, Summary, Actors, Preconditions, Trigger, Basic Course of Events, Alternative Paths, postconditons, business rules and then metadata about author/date. 13:24:49 at the moment we have goals, actions, triggers, ... 13:24:53 thanks harry 13:25:04 remove some ofit. 13:25:08 harry would like to remove of it 13:25:30 harry thinks it is a bit too complicated at the moment 13:25:51 +1 summary 13:25:58 harry would like to get some summaries and pre-conditions up 13:26:08 -1 business rules 13:26:08 Just as interest, here is a very developed set of user stories for the future of identity http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/ with real stories. Clearly we don't need to go that far. But it is an interesting example 13:26:10 +??P21 13:26:15 simplify the use stories to 3 parts 13:26:21 +1 for simplification 13:26:29 summary, pre-conditions, post-conditions ? 13:26:30 i think actors is self evident possibly 13:26:48 can you repeat that hhalpin ? 13:26:50 pre-condition/basic course of events/goal accomplished (maybe alternative paths)? 13:26:53 thanks 13:26:57 So just have 3 categories for every use-case. 13:27:01 +1 13:27:10 seems ok 13:27:24 i am happy to go through and summarise if need be 13:27:39 ok. I am in the same offices as tim right now 13:27:45 Zakim, next agendum 13:27:45 I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, hhalpin 13:27:57 Zakim agenda+ Peter St. Andre of XMPP 13:28:02 Zakim, agenda+ Peter St. Andre of XMPP 13:28:02 agendum 10 added 13:28:24 bblfish: i didn't get any of that 13:28:30 breaking up 13:28:33 you were breaking up 13:28:43 YEs, the link is here http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/ 13:28:49 looks like a fashion magazine 13:28:52 Zakim, next agendum 13:28:52 agendum 10. "Peter St. Andre of XMPP" taken up [from hhalpin] 13:29:02 bblfish: saw this at the social web camp. 13:29:09 but it's called "Identity Revolution - Multi Disclipinary Perspectives" 13:29:21 stpeter has joined #swxg 13:29:36 very developed user stories on identity with very in depth characters 13:29:46 xmpp, and how it can be integrated from the social web 13:30:01 Peter go for it! 13:30:31 and how it will fit in with the w3c and the wider community 13:30:52 people which are interested in microblogging, buddy cloud 13:31:09 the relationship with OMB would be interesting. 13:31:19 trying to figure out what problems the SWXG are trying to solve 13:31:28 and how the XMPP community can help 13:31:55 the SWXG has noticed that the W3C has ignored the social web tech 13:32:16 and the group wants to write an introductory report on the landscape of technologies in the social web 13:32:59 for example the widgets work, and the open social work, and how this is pushing towards the notion of a decentralised social network 13:33:28 so the group would like to figure how the W3C can help influence future development on the social Web 13:34:07 + +1.314.705.aaff 13:34:24 -Adam 13:34:50 and the group is interested in how the technologies can be built upon, technologies like openid, oauth, xmpp 13:35:29 (sorry, should have went through them one at a time!) 13:35:40 xmpp grew out of instance messaging 13:35:42 instant 13:36:24 the initial idea was to build ontop of XML, taking the ideas of Jabber and building on XML to build a stream 13:36:27 1. Final Report on over-arching technologies 2. Adoption of social web technologies by W3C internally 3. How the W3C should evolve to interact with the wider social web commuity 13:36:53 the idea was to have a peer-2-peer based method of shifting xml between points on the web 13:37:02 so it started out very general purpose 13:37:09 that's interesting 13:37:16 xmpp could be a generalised transport mechanism 13:37:24 s/could/was designed/ 13:37:41 see http://metajack.im/2008/11/21/chesspark_design_details_part_1_why_xmpp/ 13:37:47 rpc technology, some gaming, file sharing, file sharing, google wave 13:37:53 are all built on top of xmpp 13:37:55 and http://metajack.im/2009/03/12/awesome-demo-of-real-time-xmpp-powered-app/ 13:38:13 re google talk see http://code.google.com/apis/talk/jep_extensions/extensions.html 13:38:18 google talk using xmpp for their signalling channel to set up voice and video calls 13:38:31 (google talk basic text messages are themselves xmpp) 13:38:37 there is a standards body 13:38:46 re social, ... see http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/social 13:38:51 pidgin is implementing an open-source xmpp 13:38:55 how oauth and openid fit in with XMPP is quite interesting. 13:38:58 oauth - http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0235.html 13:39:00 plans are afoot to use oauth and xmpp 13:39:12 fireeagle and xmpp see http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/developer/documentation/xmpp_faq 13:39:18 this is used in fireeagle 13:39:33 (also not mentioned but hey... rdf query over xmpp - http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/jqbus/intro.html ) 13:40:02 I thought it switched from polling to pushing... 13:40:14 polling is a problem on services, and xmpp fixes this by pushing 13:40:28 this technology is becoming popular for real time search 13:40:49 this can save service providers on hardware wear and tear 13:41:14 apple is doing some experiments with push for their iphone tech 13:41:21 http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html 13:41:24 Is pubsub 13:41:30 (I think) 13:42:32 there is work in the xmpp community on the transport tech side, but there isn't much movement in the development of social software 13:42:34 hhalpin: that is correct 13:42:40 Good overview 13:42:56 go for danbri! 13:43:04 perhaps the w3c would be a place where the xmpp could integrate with social web people 13:43:38 q re MUC (multi user chat) 13:43:45 danbri question : lots of people are stuck in the IRC world, and IM chats are advancing faster than multi user chat 13:44:35 so there is xmpp work in an online chat room chess game? and this builds upon a multi user chat room 13:45:11 MUC could be used for real-time modeling of a XML sequence, could be used to collaboratively write documents 13:45:37 xmpp has some strong points ; 13:45:57 XML, a good thing, we fixed some security issues which IRC had 13:46:02 one question would be if XMPP should at some point replace IRC as a communication point for W3C. 13:46:09 hmmm... create a MUC, invite validator@xmpp.w3.org and start working on XHTML snippets... 13:46:33 yes, this might be an effective way of working although the W3C has a lot of infrastructure invested in IRC. 13:46:36 xmpp has a cert based authentication 13:46:51 and doesn't reveal your IP address as in IRC 13:47:46 there is ongoing work to distribute rooms over a network so that if a peer goes down 13:48:08 xmpp community haven't tried to get rid off IRC, or other tech 13:49:01 collaborative point of view, you can send structure data, you could have forms pop up for voting 13:49:06 dod ? 13:49:28 department of defence mischat 13:49:36 xmpp is the only approved chat mechanism for the dod 13:49:37 part of the usa government 13:50:02 IRC had too many security issues, and the dod are moving to use XMPP group chat 13:50:20 native prescence +1 13:50:29 and we have a link to the chess game ? 13:50:48 http://www.chesspark.com/ 13:51:17 XMPP has support for native presence information, and for network availability 13:51:23 +q 13:51:30 audience segregation for presence? 13:51:51 presence information is not on IRC 13:51:55 q? 13:52:11 pidgin handles both irc and xmpp -- im using it now ... 13:52:17 Well, I'm currently on Pidgin which does both IRC and XMPP chats. 13:52:48 so when the distributed room problem gets solved in xmpp then it may be a viable replacement for IRC 13:52:49 http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/distributedmuc.html 13:52:52 i too use pidgin 13:53:49 there is lot of ongoing work on the xmpp front to build towards the distributed muc 13:53:56 lots of open source implementations 13:54:31 there are projects which are working on clustering and high availability for high volumes of users 13:54:47 prosody.im 13:54:54 thanks 13:55:11 the prosody project is having a go at the distributedmuc 13:55:16 ack hajons 13:55:20 q? 13:55:32 hajons? 13:56:29 hajons, now that xmpp is standardised, do you think that big companies like google will not implement the standard? 13:56:55 hajons asked about standards now that XMPP is being used in Google Wave etc. 13:56:57 - +1.314.705.aaff 13:57:37 xmpp which used to be called jabber, came about 10 years ago, distributed comms model, and the exchange of XML turned it into XMPP 13:57:46 rfc came about in 2004 13:58:15 since the work was put into the rfc, people can now write their own implementations 13:58:24 who would have ever thought standards could promote interoperability? 13:58:40 google talk, extended the spec for the video signalling 13:58:46 s/,// 13:58:55 q+ hhalpin 13:59:10 jingle work was very similar to google talk 13:59:51