IRC log of swxg on 2009-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:59:52 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
12:59:52 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc
12:59:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:59:56 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
12:59:56 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
12:59:57 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
12:59:57 [trackbot]
Date: 30 September 2009
13:00:07 [tpa]
Hi guys, I'm sorry I'm going to have to miss this one, there seems to be no signal at all where I'm at today.
13:00:35 [melvster1]
melvster1 has joined #swxg
13:00:37 [hhalpin]
no problem tpa
13:00:45 [hhalpin]
did you check in with henry story yet?
13:00:54 [tpa]
hhalpin: we're supposed to do it sometime this week
13:01:23 [petef]
petef has joined #swxg
13:01:24 [tpa]
hhalpin: we should also talk at some point, off-weekly call and confer about the use cases and the resulting document we're aiming for?
13:01:45 [tpa]
I guess we'll figure that out at a more convenient time, I'll be emailing you.
13:01:45 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()9:00AM has now started
13:01:51 [Zakim]
+??P7
13:01:53 [Zakim]
-??P7
13:01:53 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()9:00AM has ended
13:01:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were
13:01:56 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()9:00AM has now started
13:01:56 [hhalpin]
?
13:02:02 [Zakim]
+ +34.91.549.aaaa
13:02:20 [Zakim]
+ +0797094aabb
13:02:22 [jsalvachua]
zakim, aaaa is me
13:02:23 [Zakim]
+jsalvachua; got it
13:02:32 [Zakim]
+??P10
13:02:42 [rreck]
zakim, ??P10 is me
13:02:42 [Zakim]
+rreck; got it
13:02:48 [caribou]
caribou has joined #swxg
13:02:55 [Zakim]
+FabGandon
13:02:57 [Zakim]
+Carine
13:02:59 [petef]
zakim, aabb is me
13:02:59 [Zakim]
+petef; got it
13:03:04 [Zakim]
+??P13
13:03:06 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:03:13 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ??P13 is hhalpin
13:03:13 [Zakim]
+hhalpin; got it
13:03:15 [MacTed]
MacTed has joined #swxg
13:03:35 [bblfish]
bblfish has joined #swxg
13:03:41 [melvster]
zakim, ??P13 is me
13:03:41 [Zakim]
I already had ??P13 as hhalpin, melvster
13:03:42 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
13:03:53 [Zakim]
-hhalpin
13:03:59 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily MacTed
13:03:59 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
13:04:03 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
13:04:03 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
13:04:12 [melvster]
hhalpin: i think you got the wrong phone handle
13:04:21 [melvster]
ill redail in
13:04:25 [hhalpin]
?
13:04:49 [melvster]
i think i was ??P13
13:04:57 [melvster]
i hung up and it said -hhalpin
13:05:11 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
13:05:20 [Zakim]
+bblfish
13:05:28 [bblfish]
hi
13:05:35 [Zakim]
+??P14
13:05:46 [melvster]
zakim, ??P14 is me
13:05:46 [Zakim]
+melvster; got it
13:05:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.588.aacc - is perhaps Orri
13:06:01 [hhalpin]
?
13:06:02 [Zakim]
+??P11
13:06:03 [AndreaP]
zakim, ??p11 is me
13:06:03 [Zakim]
+AndreaP; got it
13:06:15 [hhalpin]
Zakim, +1.617.588.aacc is hhalpin
13:06:15 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named '+1.617.588.aacc'
13:06:20 [Zakim]
+ +0798919aadd
13:06:21 [hhalpin]
Zakim, aacc is hhalpin
13:06:22 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
13:06:31 [mischat]
zakim, 0798919aadd is me
13:06:31 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ??aacc is hhalpin
13:06:32 [Zakim]
sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '0798919aadd'
13:06:34 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named '??aacc'
13:06:40 [hhalpin]
Zakim, 1571588aacc is hhalpin
13:06:40 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named '1571588aacc'
13:06:48 [hhalpin]
Zakim, 16171588aacc is hhalpin
13:06:48 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not recognize a party named '16171588aacc'
13:06:52 [petef]
zakim, aacc is hhalpin
13:06:52 [Zakim]
sorry, petef, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
13:06:54 [Zakim]
-AndreaP
13:06:57 [Zakim]
+Adam
13:07:06 [mischat]
zakim, aadd is me
13:07:06 [Zakim]
+mischat; got it
13:07:08 [Zakim]
+tinkster
13:07:12 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
13:07:12 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
13:07:25 [mischat]
hello all
13:07:27 [hhalpin]
agenda+ Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-09-30T13:00-15:00Z
13:07:28 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's on the call?
13:07:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jsalvachua, petef, rreck, FabGandon, Carine, MacTed (muted), bblfish, melvster, Orri, mischat (muted), Adam, tinkster
13:07:35 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next agendum
13:07:35 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2009-09-30T13:00-15:00Z" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:07:44 [hhalpin]
zakim agenda+ General Organization
13:07:51 [hhalpin]
zakim, agenda+ General Organization
13:07:51 [Zakim]
agendum 7 added
13:07:57 [MacTed]
Zakim, Orri is hhalpin
13:07:57 [Zakim]
+hhalpin; got it
13:08:04 [hhalpin]
zakim, agenda+ Invited Guest Invitations
13:08:04 [Zakim]
agendum 8 added
13:08:13 [hhalpin]
zakim, agenda+ user stories
13:08:13 [Zakim]
agendum 9 added
13:08:23 [hhalpin]
zakim agenda+ Invited Guest - Peter St. Andre on XMPP
13:08:46 [mischat]
i can scribe
13:08:50 [hhalpin]
scribe: mischat
13:08:53 [hhalpin]
chair: hhalpin
13:08:57 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
13:08:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jsalvachua, petef, rreck, FabGandon, Carine, MacTed (muted), bblfish, melvster, hhalpin, mischat (muted), Adam, tinkster
13:09:02 [danbri]
danbri has joined #swxg
13:09:09 [hhalpin]
ROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck
13:09:17 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck
13:09:39 [hhalpin]
RESOLVED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 23rd September 2009 as a true record plus adding rreck
13:09:40 [Zakim]
+??P11
13:09:46 [hajons]
hajons has joined #swxg
13:09:47 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. October 7th
13:09:48 [danbri]
zakim, ??P11 is danbri
13:09:48 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
13:09:50 [rreck]
zakim, mute me
13:09:50 [Zakim]
rreck should now be muted
13:09:59 [rreck]
+1 meet again
13:10:05 [hhalpin]
Next Wed is Evan from OpenMicroblogging.
13:10:14 [hhalpin]
Also requested we move things 2 hours back if possible.
13:10:18 [petef]
+1
13:10:18 [mischat]
evan request for 2 hours back
13:10:23 [danbri]
(back meaning forward :)
13:10:26 [danbri]
later
13:10:29 [petef]
into the future
13:10:34 [hhalpin]
Moving meeting to 13:00UTC
13:10:38 [danbri]
back to the future :)
13:10:39 [mischat]
moving meeting to 13:00 UTC
13:10:48 [petef]
Already 13:00 UTC
13:10:48 [danbri]
i support moving it
13:10:49 [tinkster]
It's already 13:00 UTC.
13:10:53 [petef]
move to 15:00 UTC
13:10:55 [hhalpin]
Moving meeting to 15:00UTC
13:10:59 [danbri]
everyone is confused around timezones anyhow, this time of year
13:11:02 [hhalpin]
If we don't get any objetions
13:11:02 [rreck]
+1 move meeting time to 15:00UTC
13:11:10 [hhalpin]
then move next meeting to 15:00UTC.
13:11:11 [Zakim]
+ +46.1.08.01.aaee
13:11:16 [jsalvachua]
+1
13:11:17 [tinkster]
I'm happy with 15:00 UTC for next week (and indeed, generally).
13:11:19 [mischat]
harry to ask the list this week, if no objections we move to 15:00 UTC
13:11:23 [mischat]
+1
13:11:32 [bblfish]
no
13:11:34 [hhalpin]
RESOLVED: Unless objections from list, telecons moved to 15:00 UTC from now on.
13:11:34 [danbri]
are we expecting stpeter now?
13:11:35 [bblfish]
problem
13:11:43 [danbri]
ok
13:11:49 [Zakim]
+pchampin
13:11:51 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next agendum
13:11:51 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "General Organization" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:11:55 [tinkster]
bblfish, is that "no. problem." or "no problem."
13:12:00 [hhalpin]
Technical Plenary?
13:12:06 [hhalpin]
Whose going to technical plenary?
13:12:07 [bblfish]
no problem. or +1
13:12:10 [FabGandon]
going
13:12:11 [bblfish]
I should be going
13:12:13 [danbri]
i can't make it
13:12:14 [petef]
not me
13:12:16 [tinkster]
not me
13:12:18 [mischat]
not me
13:12:22 [melvster]
not me
13:12:23 [jsalvachua]
not me ;(
13:12:25 [AndreaP]
not me
13:12:25 [hajons]
don't know yet
13:12:32 [danbri]
(i did talk to Kevin Marks about possibility of him talking; passed that on to harry/ian)
13:12:43 [mischat]
henry, fabien are going
13:12:46 [hhalpin]
you should register asap, the calendar is correct now.
13:12:49 [hhalpin]
I know you DKA
13:12:52 [mischat]
if people want to go they should register asap
13:12:54 [hhalpin]
and then's this open social web day.
13:13:01 [AdamB]
AdamB has joined #swxg
13:13:06 [Zakim]
+??P27
13:13:09 [AndreaP]
zakim, ??p27 is me
13:13:09 [Zakim]
+AndreaP; got it
13:13:17 [hhalpin]
Is anyone going to Internet Identity Workshop?
13:13:22 [FabGandon]
not going to IIW
13:13:23 [hajons]
probably
13:13:23 [hhalpin]
Which is right afterwards...
13:13:33 [mischat]
which is right after the technical plenary
13:13:39 [petef]
nope
13:13:39 [hhalpin]
ok just checking in...
13:13:43 [jsalvachua]
not me
13:13:54 [mischat]
registration fees are going up for the IIW
13:14:05 [mischat]
so if you want to go then you should get on it asap
13:14:05 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: DKA to summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread knowledge of these efforts among W3C members.
13:14:12 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION:Mischa to describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG.
13:14:19 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next agendum
13:14:20 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Invited Guest Invitations" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:14:32 [hhalpin]
Opera/Widgets/OpenSocial?
13:14:46 [mischat]
i will get mine done soon, I have been recovering from submitting thesis this last week
13:14:54 [mischat]
danbri is a technically a bad person :)
13:15:28 [mischat]
has anyone looked at the activity streams work ?
13:15:28 [hhalpin]
http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/
13:15:29 [Zakim]
-pchampin
13:15:32 [petef]
I have had a brief look
13:15:40 [hajons]
me too
13:15:44 [petef]
Happy to look deeper and perhaps write a summary for the wiki
13:15:51 [mischat]
hasn't danbri looked at it in the notube work ?
13:15:53 [hajons]
opensocial and activity streams are looking to align
13:16:01 [hhalpin]
I think it's definitely worth summarziing for the wiki and yes it is aligning to opensocial.
13:16:28 [mischat]
harry thinks it would be good for some to host a session on the activity streams work
13:16:53 [hhalpin]
ACTION: Harry to invite Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk
13:16:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-92 - Invite Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-10-07].
13:16:58 [petef]
Do we have Chris Messina on the invite list already?
13:17:08 [Zakim]
+pchampin
13:17:14 [mischat]
who spoke ?
13:17:20 [petef]
petef
13:17:23 [danbri]
+1 for having it in the final report at least, and seems good to invite them to present
13:17:33 [hhalpin]
ACTION: petef to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina
13:17:33 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - petef
13:17:34 [mischat]
+1 to having on the final report
13:17:44 [hhalpin]
ACTION: pferne to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina
13:17:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-93 - Look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [on Peter Ferne - due 2009-10-07].
13:18:11 [hhalpin]
[CONTINUES] ACTION: cperey to book global lockbox as an invited speaker
13:18:13 [mischat]
i will get the mail out to the BBC persian people
13:18:22 [mischat]
please do :)
13:18:39 [hhalpin]
ACTION: mischat to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media
13:18:39 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - mischat
13:18:47 [hhalpin]
ACTION: mtuffield to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media
13:18:47 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - mtuffield
13:18:54 [mischat]
mtiffiel
13:18:58 [mischat]
spelt wrong
13:18:59 [mischat]
:)
13:19:06 [mischat]
swh's fault
13:19:11 [hhalpin]
ACTION: mtiffiel to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media
13:19:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-94 - Invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2009-10-07].
13:19:22 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next agendum
13:19:22 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "user stories" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:19:23 [Zakim]
+cperey
13:19:40 [hhalpin]
Quick note Christine on Open Social Web day?
13:19:51 [mischat]
re user stories, oshani is away today
13:20:00 [danbri]
oof http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests takes a while to load
13:20:17 [hhalpin]
cool!
13:20:20 [mischat]
Christine has talked to Dan, re : OPen Social Web day. Dan to add to the wiki, and will be setting up an eventbrite for the event
13:20:31 [mischat]
a conference call is scheduled for this coming friday
13:20:32 [bblfish]
q+
13:20:40 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ack bblfish
13:20:40 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
13:20:50 [mischat]
there is a need for some more marketing to happen
13:21:16 [mischat]
henry, just an email confirmation that the auditorium has been booked along with
13:21:18 [hhalpin]
good news!
13:21:18 [cperey]
cperey has joined #SWXG
13:21:23 [mischat]
projectors, wifi, and stuff
13:22:00 [hhalpin]
?
13:22:04 [mischat]
harry had a question about the user stories, perhaps they are too complicated
13:22:20 [hhalpin]
it would nice to get user story doc done between TPAC
13:22:25 [hhalpin]
sorry before TPAC!
13:22:45 [mischat]
christine has taken a high level ID, so that the use cases can be clustered
13:22:59 [hhalpin]
is this work online?
13:23:10 [mischat]
high level concepts to classify the user stories
13:23:23 [mischat]
for organisational purposes
13:23:49 [mischat]
christine to check if she can get the document she was been working on online
13:23:50 [rreck]
please do
13:24:33 [mischat]
so christine will aim to share the structure she has built with the groups
13:24:43 [cperey]
yes
13:24:49 [hhalpin]
Goal, Summary, Actors, Preconditions, Trigger, Basic Course of Events, Alternative Paths, postconditons, business rules and then metadata about author/date.
13:24:49 [mischat]
at the moment we have goals, actions, triggers, ...
13:24:53 [mischat]
thanks harry
13:25:04 [hhalpin]
remove some ofit.
13:25:08 [mischat]
harry would like to remove of it
13:25:30 [mischat]
harry thinks it is a bit too complicated at the moment
13:25:51 [rreck]
+1 summary
13:25:58 [mischat]
harry would like to get some summaries and pre-conditions up
13:26:08 [rreck]
-1 business rules
13:26:08 [bblfish]
Just as interest, here is a very developed set of user stories for the future of identity http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/ with real stories. Clearly we don't need to go that far. But it is an interesting example
13:26:10 [Zakim]
+??P21
13:26:15 [mischat]
simplify the use stories to 3 parts
13:26:21 [petef]
+1 for simplification
13:26:29 [mischat]
summary, pre-conditions, post-conditions ?
13:26:30 [rreck]
i think actors is self evident possibly
13:26:48 [mischat]
can you repeat that hhalpin ?
13:26:50 [hhalpin]
pre-condition/basic course of events/goal accomplished (maybe alternative paths)?
13:26:53 [mischat]
thanks
13:26:57 [hhalpin]
So just have 3 categories for every use-case.
13:27:01 [mischat]
+1
13:27:10 [bblfish]
seems ok
13:27:24 [mischat]
i am happy to go through and summarise if need be
13:27:39 [bblfish]
ok. I am in the same offices as tim right now
13:27:45 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next agendum
13:27:45 [Zakim]
I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, hhalpin
13:27:57 [hhalpin]
Zakim agenda+ Peter St. Andre of XMPP
13:28:02 [hhalpin]
Zakim, agenda+ Peter St. Andre of XMPP
13:28:02 [Zakim]
agendum 10 added
13:28:24 [mischat]
bblfish: i didn't get any of that
13:28:30 [hajons]
breaking up
13:28:33 [mischat]
you were breaking up
13:28:43 [bblfish]
YEs, the link is here http://www.fidis.net/resources/identity-revolution/
13:28:49 [bblfish]
looks like a fashion magazine
13:28:52 [hhalpin]
Zakim, next agendum
13:28:52 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "Peter St. Andre of XMPP" taken up [from hhalpin]
13:29:02 [mischat]
bblfish: saw this at the social web camp.
13:29:09 [bblfish]
but it's called "Identity Revolution - Multi Disclipinary Perspectives"
13:29:21 [stpeter]
stpeter has joined #swxg
13:29:36 [bblfish]
very developed user stories on identity with very in depth characters
13:29:46 [mischat]
xmpp, and how it can be integrated from the social web
13:30:01 [hhalpin]
Peter go for it!
13:30:31 [mischat]
and how it will fit in with the w3c and the wider community
13:30:52 [mischat]
people which are interested in microblogging, buddy cloud
13:31:09 [hhalpin]
the relationship with OMB would be interesting.
13:31:19 [mischat]
trying to figure out what problems the SWXG are trying to solve
13:31:28 [mischat]
and how the XMPP community can help
13:31:55 [mischat]
the SWXG has noticed that the W3C has ignored the social web tech
13:32:16 [mischat]
and the group wants to write an introductory report on the landscape of technologies in the social web
13:32:59 [mischat]
for example the widgets work, and the open social work, and how this is pushing towards the notion of a decentralised social network
13:33:28 [mischat]
so the group would like to figure how the W3C can help influence future development on the social Web
13:34:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.314.705.aaff
13:34:24 [Zakim]
-Adam
13:34:50 [mischat]
and the group is interested in how the technologies can be built upon, technologies like openid, oauth, xmpp
13:35:29 [hhalpin]
(sorry, should have went through them one at a time!)
13:35:40 [mischat]
xmpp grew out of instance messaging
13:35:42 [mischat]
instant
13:36:24 [mischat]
the initial idea was to build ontop of XML, taking the ideas of Jabber and building on XML to build a stream
13:36:27 [hhalpin]
1. Final Report on over-arching technologies 2. Adoption of social web technologies by W3C internally 3. How the W3C should evolve to interact with the wider social web commuity
13:36:53 [mischat]
the idea was to have a peer-2-peer based method of shifting xml between points on the web
13:37:02 [hhalpin]
so it started out very general purpose
13:37:09 [hhalpin]
that's interesting
13:37:16 [mischat]
xmpp could be a generalised transport mechanism
13:37:24 [mischat]
s/could/was designed/
13:37:41 [danbri]
see http://metajack.im/2008/11/21/chesspark_design_details_part_1_why_xmpp/
13:37:47 [mischat]
rpc technology, some gaming, file sharing, file sharing, google wave
13:37:53 [mischat]
are all built on top of xmpp
13:37:55 [danbri]
and http://metajack.im/2009/03/12/awesome-demo-of-real-time-xmpp-powered-app/
13:38:13 [danbri]
re google talk see http://code.google.com/apis/talk/jep_extensions/extensions.html
13:38:18 [mischat]
google talk using xmpp for their signalling channel to set up voice and video calls
13:38:31 [danbri]
(google talk basic text messages are themselves xmpp)
13:38:37 [mischat]
there is a standards body
13:38:46 [danbri]
re social, ... see http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/social
13:38:51 [mischat]
pidgin is implementing an open-source xmpp
13:38:55 [hhalpin]
how oauth and openid fit in with XMPP is quite interesting.
13:38:58 [danbri]
oauth - http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0235.html
13:39:00 [mischat]
plans are afoot to use oauth and xmpp
13:39:12 [danbri]
fireeagle and xmpp see http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/developer/documentation/xmpp_faq
13:39:18 [mischat]
this is used in fireeagle
13:39:33 [danbri]
(also not mentioned but hey... rdf query over xmpp - http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/jqbus/intro.html )
13:40:02 [hhalpin]
I thought it switched from polling to pushing...
13:40:14 [mischat]
polling is a problem on services, and xmpp fixes this by pushing
13:40:28 [mischat]
this technology is becoming popular for real time search
13:40:49 [mischat]
this can save service providers on hardware wear and tear
13:41:14 [mischat]
apple is doing some experiments with push for their iphone tech
13:41:21 [hhalpin]
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html
13:41:24 [hhalpin]
Is pubsub
13:41:30 [hhalpin]
(I think)
13:42:32 [mischat]
there is work in the xmpp community on the transport tech side, but there isn't much movement in the development of social software
13:42:34 [stpeter]
hhalpin: that is correct
13:42:40 [hhalpin]
Good overview
13:42:56 [hhalpin]
go for danbri!
13:43:04 [mischat]
perhaps the w3c would be a place where the xmpp could integrate with social web people
13:43:38 [danbri]
q re MUC (multi user chat)
13:43:45 [mischat]
danbri question : lots of people are stuck in the IRC world, and IM chats are advancing faster than multi user chat
13:44:35 [mischat]
so there is xmpp work in an online chat room chess game? and this builds upon a multi user chat room
13:45:11 [mischat]
MUC could be used for real-time modeling of a XML sequence, could be used to collaboratively write documents
13:45:37 [mischat]
xmpp has some strong points ;
13:45:57 [mischat]
XML, a good thing, we fixed some security issues which IRC had
13:46:02 [hhalpin]
one question would be if XMPP should at some point replace IRC as a communication point for W3C.
13:46:09 [tinkster]
hmmm... create a MUC, invite validator@xmpp.w3.org and start working on XHTML snippets...
13:46:33 [hhalpin]
yes, this might be an effective way of working although the W3C has a lot of infrastructure invested in IRC.
13:46:36 [mischat]
xmpp has a cert based authentication
13:46:51 [mischat]
and doesn't reveal your IP address as in IRC
13:47:46 [mischat]
there is ongoing work to distribute rooms over a network so that if a peer goes down
13:48:08 [mischat]
xmpp community haven't tried to get rid off IRC, or other tech
13:49:01 [mischat]
collaborative point of view, you can send structure data, you could have forms pop up for voting
13:49:06 [mischat]
dod ?
13:49:28 [hhalpin]
department of defence mischat
13:49:36 [mischat]
xmpp is the only approved chat mechanism for the dod
13:49:37 [hhalpin]
part of the usa government
13:50:02 [mischat]
IRC had too many security issues, and the dod are moving to use XMPP group chat
13:50:20 [hhalpin]
native prescence +1
13:50:29 [mischat]
and we have a link to the chess game ?
13:50:48 [petef]
http://www.chesspark.com/
13:51:17 [mischat]
XMPP has support for native presence information, and for network availability
13:51:23 [hajons]
+q
13:51:30 [caribou]
audience segregation for presence?
13:51:51 [mischat]
presence information is not on IRC
13:51:55 [danbri]
q?
13:52:11 [melvster]
pidgin handles both irc and xmpp -- im using it now ...
13:52:17 [tinkster]
Well, I'm currently on Pidgin which does both IRC and XMPP chats.
13:52:48 [mischat]
so when the distributed room problem gets solved in xmpp then it may be a viable replacement for IRC
13:52:49 [stpeter]
http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/distributedmuc.html
13:52:52 [mischat]
i too use pidgin
13:53:49 [mischat]
there is lot of ongoing work on the xmpp front to build towards the distributed muc
13:53:56 [mischat]
lots of open source implementations
13:54:31 [mischat]
there are projects which are working on clustering and high availability for high volumes of users
13:54:47 [danbri]
prosody.im
13:54:54 [mischat]
thanks
13:55:11 [mischat]
the prosody project is having a go at the distributedmuc
13:55:16 [hhalpin]
ack hajons
13:55:20 [mischat]
q?
13:55:32 [hhalpin]
hajons?
13:56:29 [mischat]
hajons, now that xmpp is standardised, do you think that big companies like google will not implement the standard?
13:56:55 [hhalpin]
hajons asked about standards now that XMPP is being used in Google Wave etc.
13:56:57 [Zakim]
- +1.314.705.aaff
13:57:37 [mischat]
xmpp which used to be called jabber, came about 10 years ago, distributed comms model, and the exchange of XML turned it into XMPP
13:57:46 [mischat]
rfc came about in 2004
13:58:15 [mischat]
since the work was put into the rfc, people can now write their own implementations
13:58:24 [rreck]
who would have ever thought standards could promote interoperability?
13:58:40 [mischat]
google talk, extended the spec for the video signalling
13:58:46 [mischat]
s/,//
13:58:55 [hhalpin]
q+ hhalpin
13:59:10 [mischat]
jingle work was very similar to google talk
13:59:51 [mischat]
and the jingle tech is now in the xmpp specs, and google are now looking to harmonise the open-source implementations of jingle with their google talk
14:01:36 [mischat]
still early days in google wave. google wave are trying to develop the technology in the open, which was different to the google talk. google talk was implemented and then it was released in the wild
14:01:52 [petef]
q+ petef
14:02:15 [hhalpin]
Do people mind extending the call 15-20 minutes to deal with questions?
14:02:36 [rreck]
+1 extend, but i may have to drop
14:02:41 [hajons]
+1
14:02:45 [mischat]
xmpp is a good community of people, and they are standardisation friendly
14:03:02 [jsalvachua]
+1 extend
14:03:18 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
14:03:38 [hajons]
+q
14:04:11 [mischat]
harry question : are there plans for the xmpp auth to be integrated with openid
14:04:48 [mischat]
and second question, will xmpp integrate with the TLS?
14:05:35 [hhalpin]
ah, that clears things up a bit from the outside.
14:05:48 [danbri]
(interesting, i was wondering whether foaf:jabberID needed updating)
14:05:54 [mischat]
xmpp has always used ssl for encryption
14:06:43 [hhalpin]
starTLS to upgrade a port to encryption - but that's per-hop not end-to-end (i.e. OTR?)
14:06:45 [mischat]
since 2004, there has been a start_tls command, which is a per hop encrypted
14:06:55 [mischat]
encryption
14:07:11 [bblfish]
very cool: start with TLS and upgrade to encrypted when you want encryption. Should use this for foaf+ssl :-)
14:07:50 [mischat]
it is possible that there is clear-text on the server
14:08:02 [tinkster]
bblfish, HTTP/HTTPS doesn't allow upgrades to encrypted connections on the same port.
14:08:09 [mischat]
as the moment there is no end-to-end encryption
14:08:13 [hhalpin]
what's the issues with OTR?
14:08:16 [mischat]
they have looked at pptp
14:08:22 [mischat]
and have looked smime
14:08:41 [hhalpin]
so just go end-to-end TLS
14:08:57 [mischat]
but people dont have certs, so they have looked a tls, and how it can be reworked to do end-end encryption
14:09:03 [hhalpin]
OTR is a bit of a hack with weird signalling...can only encrypt plain text message.
14:09:18 [mischat]
in OTR you can only encrypt the plain text messages
14:09:25 [hhalpin]
Doesn't encrypt the rest of the XML
14:09:26 [bblfish]
tinkster: I thought that is what peter said
14:09:34 [hhalpin]
ah, that makes a lot of sense
14:09:38 [mischat]
for example you can only encrypt the message body, e.g. "Hello World"
14:09:45 [mischat]
not the whole XML message
14:10:18 [hhalpin]
q?
14:10:34 [mischat]
OTR does not give end-to-end security
14:10:52 [bblfish]
q+
14:10:53 [Zakim]
-cperey
14:10:55 [mischat]
there are issues with certs
14:11:02 [hhalpin]
ack petef
14:11:14 [hhalpin]
encrypted group chat end-to-end?
14:11:16 [hhalpin]
very hard problem.
14:11:22 [mischat]
for doing end-to-end group is a hard problem
14:11:35 [hhalpin]
the default w3c chat is not encrypted
14:12:10 [hhalpin]
so it's still in the scope but in the future
14:12:14 [hhalpin]
room itself with certifcate?
14:12:16 [danbri]
http://silcnet.org/
14:12:20 [tinkster]
GPG allows messages to be encrypted to multiple users.
14:12:37 [mischat]
first to work on end-to-end encryption, and then there will be work on the group chat encryption
14:12:43 [hhalpin]
ack PeterF
14:13:19 [hhalpin]
q+ hhalpin
14:13:36 [mischat]
question petef. Google Waves server - server federation is xmpp, will anymore of it be based on xmpp
14:13:37 [tinkster]
multiuser_encypted_message = concat( encrypt(plaintext_message, random_key), encrypt(random_key, recip1_key), encrypt(random_key, recip2_key), encrypt(random_key, recip3_key), ...)
14:13:50 [petef]
"special google magic" :-)
14:14:01 [hajons]
protobuf
14:14:10 [mischat]
discussion to have xmpp version of the client - server xmpp is not high on google's todo list
14:14:17 [hajons]
http://code.google.com/p/protobuf/
14:14:19 [mischat]
the wave server is no based on xmpp
14:14:29 [mischat]
not for client-server
14:14:37 [mischat]
but they use it for server - server comms
14:14:51 [hhalpin]
ack hajons
14:15:22 [mischat]
xmpp does federation well very, xmpp does it server-server encrypted comms well
14:15:37 [mischat]
quite a few xmpp mobile clients
14:15:53 [mischat]
nokia are doing work on xmpp (hajons are there any links?)
14:16:26 [mischat]
there are questions to how effecient xmpp is, due to long lived tcp connection
14:16:49 [mischat]
90% of traffic in an IM environment
14:16:54 [mischat]
is presense
14:16:57 [mischat]
presence
14:16:59 [mischat]
not chat
14:17:42 [mischat]
there are ways to manage presence information in xmpp, so that you dont have to receive presence data continuously
14:18:03 [hajons]
http://betalabs.nokia.com/betas/view/nokia-chat
14:18:22 [mischat]
there is work underway todo diff's on the information sent across to to clients
14:18:24 [mischat]
ovi.com
14:18:35 [mischat]
http://ovi.com (nokia system for mobile stuff)
14:18:37 [mischat]
thank hajons
14:18:40 [mischat]
thans
14:18:57 [mischat]
buddlyclowd etc
14:19:11 [rreck]
gtg, thanks peter.
14:19:16 [Zakim]
-rreck
14:19:20 [mischat]
google talk for andriod apparently doesn't use xmpp
14:19:25 [petef]
http://buddycloud.com
14:20:41 [mischat]
so there was a google talk service which was a developer back channel on andriod, which is built ontop of google talk, which is xmpp.
14:21:27 [hhalpin]
ack bblfish
14:21:38 [mischat]
remote scripting opens up security holes
14:21:39 [danbri]
q+ to ask about vcard
14:22:05 [Zakim]
-jsalvachua
14:22:20 [hhalpin]
basically, Google Android doesn't actually do XMPP despite the fact that's its heavily requested
14:22:24 [mischat]
henry is asking about client side authenication based on certs (foaf+ssl)
14:23:14 [mischat]
xmpp is uses sasiliks (dont know what the tech is), which enables xmpp to use client based certs
14:23:34 [tinkster]
s/sasiliks/SASL external/
14:23:51 [hhalpin]
x509 certificates is the key issue as most people don't have them - although everyone does have a social networking page :)
14:24:01 [mischat]
this is used by the army, because they all have certs, allowing for X.509 certs
14:24:08 [mischat]
thanks tinkster :)
14:24:14 [pchampin]
sounds like a pretty good idea!
14:24:52 [mischat]
the aim is to have your client create a cert, which it could be used to do end-to-end encryption
14:24:53 [pchampin]
(rather than having pidgin storing all our passwords cleartext...)
14:25:11 [mischat]
pchampin: pidgin is very naughty like that
14:25:44 [mischat]
in foaf+ssl, your cert is assigned to a URI, which is resolvable
14:25:51 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
14:26:14 [mischat]
foaf+ssl allows for a decentralised social network
14:26:24 [mischat]
with danbri's jqbus now
14:26:27 [mischat]
maybe
14:26:38 [mischat]
http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/jqbus/intro.html
14:26:52 [danbri]
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0154.html has vcard, foaf etc stuff
14:27:59 [mischat]
harry question : what could do the W3C do in this community to help take the xmpp work forward ?
14:28:06 [hhalpin]
the answer can be done over e-mail :)
14:28:20 [hhalpin]
I would assume membership is a huge barrier
14:28:34 [pchampin]
have to go now; thanks a lot to Peter
14:28:43 [Zakim]
-pchampin
14:29:04 [stpeter]
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html
14:29:08 [caribou]
coordination is better at group level
14:29:46 [mischat]
peter said that there is potential for collaboration between xmpp and the SWXG
14:29:59 [danbri]
q+
14:30:39 [Zakim]
-bblfish
14:30:52 [mischat]
sorry
14:30:53 [danbri]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/charter ("The chairs will strive to make sure that W3C membership is not a problem for independent, student and low-wage members, while noting that employees of larger companies are typically expected by W3C to encourage their employer to join W3C.")
14:31:27 [mischat]
oauth to become a standard soon
14:31:42 [hhalpin]
via IETF and cultural question
14:31:44 [hhalpin]
ack danbri
14:31:44 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask about vcard and to
14:33:43 [hhalpin]
probably the w3c's best role is to verify things that come out of running code and communities.
14:34:36 [hhalpin]
mischa?
14:35:42 [mischat]
sorry, i keep being called by people at work
14:35:43 [hhalpin]
basically, people in social web realm have a big cultural difference
14:36:12 [hhalpin]
w3c needs to get closer to running code
14:36:43 [hhalpin]
danbri: protocols with security are the way to go
14:36:54 [hhalpin]
danbri: for standards body
14:37:02 [hhalpin]
danbri: but schemas should be informal
14:37:15 [hhalpin]
can we build hackfests into our program
14:37:18 [danbri]
i mean, if you're doing a protocol, it needs more review and formality than making a descriptive schema
14:37:21 [danbri]
+1 re hackfests
14:37:33 [mischat]
schemas may best be built informally, like at a hack fest, where at protocols tend to need more effort, and as a result might need a working group
14:37:36 [hhalpin]
how can we get this energy channelled
14:37:39 [hhalpin]
back to running code
14:38:02 [hhalpin]
thanks alot!
14:39:04 [mischat]
pete thinks this is exciting, and he will get people from his group to try and get involved with the SWXG
14:39:06 [danbri]
thanks stpeter!
14:39:17 [mischat]
hhalpin: i will do it
14:39:24 [Zakim]
-tinkster
14:39:26 [hhalpin]
ACTION: mischa to write up Peter's talk on XMPP
14:39:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-95 - Write up Peter's talk on XMPP [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2009-10-07].
14:40:45 [mischat]
bye all
14:40:45 [Zakim]
-Carine
14:40:46 [hhalpin]
Meeting adjourned
14:40:46 [danbri]
re future meetings, i circulated http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/WidgetsDiscussion and got positive feedback from David Recordon and Joseph Smarr
14:40:48 [Zakim]
-??P21
14:40:49 [hajons]
bye
14:40:49 [melvster]
thanks!
14:40:51 [Zakim]
-petef
14:40:53 [Zakim]
-FabGandon
14:40:54 [Zakim]
- +46.1.08.01.aaee
14:40:56 [Zakim]
-AndreaP
14:40:57 [danbri]
zakim, drop danbri
14:41:00 [Zakim]
-melvster
14:41:02 [Zakim]
danbri is being disconnected
14:41:04 [Zakim]
-danbri
14:41:06 [Zakim]
-mischat
14:41:08 [Zakim]
-MacTed
14:41:10 [petef]
petef has left #swxg
14:41:11 [caribou]
caribou has left #swxg
14:46:06 [pchampin]
pchampin has left #swxg
14:47:38 [hhalpin]
rrsrrsagent, create minutes
14:47:47 [hhalpin]
rrsagent, create minutes
14:47:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html hhalpin
14:48:15 [hhalpin]
trackbot, end meeting
14:48:15 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
14:48:15 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +34.91.549.aaaa, +0797094aabb, jsalvachua, rreck, FabGandon, Carine, petef, [IPcaller], hhalpin, MacTed, bblfish, melvster,
14:48:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:48:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
14:48:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-actions.rdf :
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Harry to invite Ben Laurie from OAuth/Google Wave security to W3C Social Web talk [1]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc#T13-16-53
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: petef to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [2]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc#T13-17-33
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: pferne to look into activitystreams invite, maybe Chris Messina [3]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc#T13-17-44
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: mischat to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [4]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc#T13-18-39
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: mtuffield to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [5]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc#T13-18-47
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: mtiffiel to invite BBC Persia people to talk about their use of social media [6]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc#T13-19-11
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: mischa to write up Peter's talk on XMPP [7]
14:48:17 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-swxg-irc#T14-39-26
14:48:18 [Zakim]
... +1.617.588.aacc, AndreaP, +0798919aadd, Adam, mischat, tinkster, danbri, +46.1.08.01.aaee, pchampin, cperey, +1.314.705.aaff