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15:36:58 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:36:59 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
15:46:56 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
15:52:45 <glazou> salut sylvaing 
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15:55:12 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:19 <Zakim> +glazou
15:55:53 <Zakim> +plinss
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15:57:42 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
15:58:57 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaaa
15:59:15 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing 
15:59:15 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
15:59:27 <Zakim> +bradk
15:59:39 <Zakim> + +1.281.419.aabb
15:59:47 <hyatt> that's me
15:59:55 <glazou> Zakim, aabb is hyatt 
15:59:55 <Zakim> +hyatt; got it
16:00:43 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:00:56 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:01:21 <Zakim> +Bert
16:03:48 <Zakim> + +49.238.aacc
16:04:46 <Zakim> +??P9
16:05:02 <dbaron> Zakim, ??P9 is fantasai
16:05:02 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:05:05 <CesarAcebal> Zakim, +49.238.aacc is CesarAcebal
16:05:05 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
16:06:10 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:07:01 <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/:4bhipd
16:07:19 <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
16:07:21 <dbaron> Topic: Gradients
16:07:32 <dbaron> Daniel: Two proposals for gradients; consideration of adding to css3-images.
16:07:39 <dbaron> Daniel: Proposal from apple, new proposal from Tab.
16:07:50 <fantasai> Bert doesn't think this should be in CSS at all
16:07:50 <dbaron> Daniel: Still feasible to add to css3-images?
16:08:09 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:08:31 <fantasai> Steve: I went back and checked SVG, and gradients are really a content object
16:08:37 <fantasai> Steve: So why would they be defined in CSS?
16:08:42 <fantasai> Steve: We don't define images, do we?
16:08:54 <fantasai> Brad?: In SVG they're content objects, but not in CSS+HTML documents
16:09:09 <fantasai> dbaron: In SVG, everything is a content object
16:09:14 <fantasai> s/Brad?/Tab/
16:09:30 <fantasai> Tab: The reason they are content in SVG is so you can use in any of your graphics (?)
16:09:38 <fantasai> er
16:09:41 <fantasai> s/Tab/Steve/
16:09:47 <fantasai> Steve: ... why are we defining this in CSS?
16:10:13 <fantasai> Daniel: 1st  ...
16:10:28 <fantasai> Daniel: 2nd, creating an SVG object for this is overkill
16:10:58 <fantasai> hyatt: You can use them anywhere there's an image: background-image, list-style-image, etc.
16:11:08 <glazou> s/1st/SVG and HTML4 dont live well together
16:11:10 <fantasai> Tab: In my proposal they're an abstraction as an image in css3-images
16:11:21 <fantasai> hyatt: Yes, that's why we're proposing to put them in css3-images
16:11:51 <fantasai> Sylvain: What ? is saying is that we're defining an image inline in CSS, we don't do that anywhere else
16:12:13 <fantasai> ?: Gradients are very easy to linearize, much smaller when given as text description than as an image
16:12:25 <fantasai> hyatt: We cut out over 40 images when we converted ? to gradients
16:12:36 <fantasai> hyatt: Very dramatic savings because these images are not that small
16:12:44 <fantasai> Sylvain: ... 
16:12:58 <fantasai> Steve: My comment wasn't so much that I thought we should use images for gradients, I don't think that
16:13:22 <fantasai> Steve: I just found it strange in some sense that we were creating CSS syntax for content objects
16:13:31 <fantasai> Daniel: I agree with "content object"
16:13:35 <fantasai> s/agree/disagree/
16:13:57 <fantasai> hyatt: Don't know where you're getting "content object". Everything in SVG is a "content object", doesn't mean it's not presentational
16:14:22 <sylvaing> I buy that this use-case is so common and beneficial that it deserves a 'promotion' to a compact CSS syntax; but as this is an exception, this is a case we may have to explain in the specification.
16:14:26 <fantasai> Steve: Where I'm really going is, given that SVG has gradients, what happens with just doing an SVG-like syntax in CSS?
16:14:32 <fantasai> Steve: Is that totally impossible?
16:14:48 <fantasai> Tab?: I suspect that would be really heavy-weight for what we're trying to do here
16:15:16 <fantasai> Brad?: It's good for a general solution, for doing everything. But gradients are so simple that we'll get a lot of benefit by doing it in a CSS syntax
16:15:45 <fantasai> Steve: I didn't say use SVG. I said use SVG as the model for what the gradient is, and convert that in to CSS syntax
16:16:10 <fantasai> hyatt: That's what we're doing. All the gradients in SVG, Canvas, and CSS.. they're all implemented the same way, just different syntax
16:16:22 <fantasai> hyatt: I think already the syntax is close enough that what you're getting is what you'd get in SVG
16:16:43 <fantasai> Steve: ... creates a problem down the road when the mapping is subtly different
16:17:07 <fantasai> hyatt: It's similar enough that I don't think people will be confused. Especially for linear gradients
16:17:27 <fantasai> Steve: You keep answering in ways that cause me to be concerned e.g. "especially linear gradients, but not radial ones"
16:17:40 <fantasai> Steve: I would be much happier with something that was really really close to what SVG did
16:18:02 <fantasai> Brad???: I would be much happier with something that was much simpler and easier to understand for authors
16:18:47 <fantasai> s/Brad/Tab/
16:19:13 <fantasai> Sylvain: ... from the examples he has in there, show the SVG then we can see how close or far they are
16:19:33 <fantasai> Tab: I'll need help authoring the SVG, I don't know enough
16:19:37 <fantasai> Bert: Just use a tool
16:20:03 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
16:20:12 <fantasai> Tab, I suggest asking shepazu for help :)
16:21:01 <fantasai> Bert is arguing that people should just us SVG
16:21:46 <fantasai> hyatt: I don't think it's reasonable to ask authors to use XHTML in order to use gradients
16:22:04 <fantasai> Bert would keep the SVG in a separate file
16:23:32 <fantasai> Bert complains that CSS has too many features
16:24:02 <fantasai> Tab: I don't know how well SVG responds to resizing
16:24:16 <fantasai> Tab: My proposal explicitly went out of its way to make it simple to hit all the common cases
16:24:30 <fantasai> Sylvain: I agree, and if there's something complicated you want go to SVG there's no argument there
16:24:49 <fantasai> Sylvain: Are asking whether we want gradients as images, or whether we want gradients in CSS at all?
16:25:13 <fantasai> Bert: Let's see what people do with background module, then see if it's necessary
16:25:23 <hyatt> gradients aren't just a fad or phase. they'll be around in years still. :)
16:25:28 <hyatt> they've been in use for years
16:25:28 <fantasai> Sylvain: They've been using gradients with background images for years
16:26:11 <fantasai> Glazou: I will be speaking at web conference in France. I wanted to tell them that we will have gradients in CSS. If we wont' have it for 4 years, they are going to shout
16:28:15 <fantasai> ...
16:28:15 <shepazu> I'm happy to help if I can see the proposal
16:28:29 <fantasai> dbaron: Doing a gradient at 45deg that resizes appropriately with the box... I don't know how to do that
16:28:43 <fantasai> dbaron: There are a whole bunch of use cases that the proposal handles that you can't do in SVG
16:28:59 <fantasai> s/in/with/
16:29:13 <fantasai> dbaron: The problem with resizing SVG is that you'll get a distortion
16:30:35 <fantasai> Steve: That's not how it works, SVG gradients don't get distorted
16:31:02 <fantasai> clarification: SVG images will get distorted, but if you access the SVG gradient directly and ask it to fill the CSS box then there is no problem
16:31:39 <fantasai> glazou: We already discussed whether to have gradients in CSS in the past. We were supposed to discuss the syntax of them today
16:32:04 <fantasai> Steve: I asked why we were defining CSS syntax for gradients
16:32:26 <fantasai> Steve: The answer was that we wanted something simpler to use in the most common cases.
16:32:53 <fantasai> Steve: I would like to have the document updated to show the SVG so I can see the syntax.
16:33:03 <fantasai> Glazou: To do that we need to harmonize hyatt and Tab's proposals
16:33:08 <fantasai> hyatt: That's easy. I like Tab's proposal.
16:33:31 <fantasai> hyatt: I like splitting the single gradient() into linear-gradient() and radial-gradient()
16:34:19 <fantasai> hyatt: instead of switching argument syntax based on the first argument
16:34:38 <hyatt> tab's proposal needs to deal with background-repeat
16:34:44 <hyatt> seems to not mention that
16:34:51 <hyatt> and we do need to talk about how the gradient is "tiled"
16:34:59 <hyatt> if we're doing what robert o'callahan proposed
16:35:28 <fantasai> glazou: So let's have a formal proposal in css3-images and then discuss
16:35:47 <fantasai> fantasai: Tab's proposal is practically spec-ready. Why do we need to put off until another discussion?
16:36:34 <fantasai> hyatt: I liked roc's proposal to tile gradients by having them repeat , rather than repeating rectangles of the gradient
16:36:37 <fantasai> ...
16:36:51 <fantasai> Steve: I'm opposed until there are SVG equivalents in the draft so that I can understand the claims that are being made
16:37:04 <fantasai> Sylvain: So you're not opposed to this being included, you just want the draft clarified
16:37:11 <fantasai> Bert: I'm opposed either way
16:37:26 <fantasai> RESOLVED: add gradients to css3-images
16:37:39 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JulSep/0100.html
16:37:42 <fantasai> ACTION: Tab add SVG equivalents to gradients proposal.
16:37:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-179 - Add SVG equivalents to gradients proposal. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2009-10-07].
16:38:37 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:38:49 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
16:38:49 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/30-CSS-irc#T16-38-49
16:39:13 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
16:40:15 <fantasai> It seems like there's a lot left to discuss with drop-shadows,
16:40:15 <fantasai> and given the cascading tangle we'll wind up with if we have
16:40:15 <fantasai> two properties that do drop-shadows, I think we should not
16:40:15 <fantasai> rush through this discussion.
16:40:15 <fantasai> However, the rest of css3-background is ready for Last Call,
16:40:17 <fantasai> and, given that we have multiple implementations already, I
16:40:20 <fantasai> think we should not let the shadow discussion hold us up on
16:40:22 <fantasai> the way to CR.
16:40:25 <fantasai> My proposal is to drop box-shadow from the css3-background
16:40:27 <fantasai> draft, publish a Last Call, and move forward with that module.
16:40:30 <fantasai> If we resolve the shadows discussion within the Last Call
16:40:32 <fantasai> period, we can reincorporate it into the draft and publish
16:40:35 <fantasai> another Last Call before pushing out to CR. If we don't wrap
16:40:37 <fantasai> up by then, then I think we should publish the CR and continue
16:40:40 <fantasai> to develop a cohesive solution for CSS shadows separately. If
16:40:42 <fantasai> necessary we can recombine shadows and the css3-background
16:40:45 <fantasai> module once CSS drop-shadows has also (independently) reached
16:40:47 <fantasai> the CR phase.
16:40:50 <fantasai> This way we can give CSS drop-shadows the time it deserves,
16:40:52 <fantasai> have a way for it to catch up with the rest of the draft, and
16:40:55 <fantasai> also not block the other css3-background features which
16:40:57 <fantasai> authors are very anxious to start using.
16:41:00 <fantasai> ~fantasai
16:41:19 <ChrisL> Tab, if you need a hand on the SVG equivalents, give me a shout. i know a couple of things about SVG :)
16:41:58 <fantasai> Tab: It does seem we have a lot of things to discuss and I'd like to see what Brad's proposal can do
16:42:11 <TabAtkins> ChrisL, shepazu: I'll get with both of you today.
16:42:36 <TabAtkins> My examples are already there in the draft, I just need SVG equivalents for them.
16:43:26 <shepazu> looks like it shoudl be easy
16:43:45 <fantasai> Hyatt: I think box-shadow is an important feature, and I don't want to drop it from the draft
16:43:58 <TabAtkins> Then I need to generate some difficult examples.  ^_^
16:44:04 <hyatt> we had dropped the prefix from box-shadow already (in nightly builds)
16:44:07 <hyatt> guess it has to get put back!
16:44:22 <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's more important for us to finish off the other features in css3-background this year. We have 3 implementations ready to go, we just need the draft in CR for them to drop prefixes and interoperate
16:44:49 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm fine with re-merging it back in once it's ready, but I don't want to hold up the other features and I don't want to cut off the box-shadow discussions prematurely
16:44:57 <fantasai> Brad: Do we have a shadow module?
16:44:58 <dbaron> I'm happy with moving to LC without box-shadow for now.
16:45:00 <fantasai> fantasai: we can create one
16:45:15 <fantasai> Brad: Then we can discuss how the different shadows interaction, e.g. text-shadow
16:45:41 <fantasai> Tab: I'm for pulling it out
16:45:49 <fantasai> Daniel: I am too. Given the constraints, it's reasonable
16:45:51 <fantasai> Brad: I agree
16:45:57 <fantasai> Bert: I agree with Elika
16:46:04 <fantasai> Daniel: No objection?
16:46:14 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Drop box-shadow from css3-background
16:46:28 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Sep/0180.html
16:46:33 <fantasai> Topic: Extensions to the Mouse Events Interface
16:46:59 <fantasai> RESOLVED: work on box-shadow outside css3-background for the time being; possibly re-merge with draft later
16:47:19 <glazou> shepazu: can you attend the call ?
16:47:24 <Bert> It's sad. Rectangular box shadows I've wanted since CSS1. But holding up the module for that one feature is not wise.
16:47:43 <fantasai> yes
16:47:59 <glazou> let's defer the MouseEvent discussion until you're available, shepazu ?
16:48:32 <fantasai> Daniel: Let's move on
16:48:33 <shepazu> Zakim, code?
16:48:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
16:48:53 <glazou> shepazu: coming ?
16:49:23 <fantasai> Topic: Resizing border-image when the box is too small
16:49:30 <fantasai> Brad: I'd like them to resize the same way
16:49:36 <fantasai> shepazu, no I'm at home
16:49:45 <fantasai> Brad: as border-radius
16:49:49 <glazou> shepazu: nm, we'll discuss another time when you're not in a ftf
16:50:04 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:50:16 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:50:35 <shepazu> Zakim, [Mozilla] is shepazu 
16:50:35 <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
16:50:37 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:50:47 <glazou> shepazu: hold on finishing another topic
16:50:48 <fantasai> fantasai: I think the original intention was for each dimension to resize independently, but I'm ok with changing
16:51:42 <fantasai> fantasai: Bert?
16:52:01 <fantasai> Bert: I haven't quite made up my mind. I do think they should resize the same way as border-radius
16:52:17 <fantasai> fantasai: ok, that's all we need here; we can work out the text later
16:52:27 <sylvaing> No objection
16:52:28 <fantasai> Daniel: no objections?
16:52:38 <dbaron> I'd want to see what it actually gets resolved to.
16:52:39 <fantasai> RESOLVED: border-image resizes to small boxes the same way as border-radius
16:52:49 <fantasai> Topic: Mouse Events
16:52:58 <dbaron> I like the way it works for border-radius, and I have no idea what the rules for border-image are.
16:53:12 <fantasai> Doug sent an email on the extensions to the mouse interface
16:53:25 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Sep/0180.html
16:53:25 <bradk> they overlap, then their used values are proportionally reduced until  
16:53:25 <bradk> they no longer overlap.
16:53:40 <fantasai> dbaron: Is there anyone one the CSS end that knows about this stuff?
16:53:46 <fantasai> dbaron: because Anne is not here
16:54:19 <fantasai> hyatt looks it over
16:54:28 <fantasai> hyatt: I think this is just formalizing things that everyone implements
16:54:37 <fantasai> Doug: Why are they being done here rather than in DOM3 Events?
16:54:44 <fantasai> hyatt: I don't know
16:54:53 <fantasai> hyatt: I think it'd be fine to specify in DOM3 Events
16:55:22 <fantasai> Doug reads off a description of location, specified in relation for box module
16:55:29 <fantasai> Doug: For SVG it'd be the ?
16:55:58 <fantasai> Doug: I'm editing DOM3 Events. I'm not sure if this should stay in this draft or move over to DOM3 Events
16:56:17 <fantasai> Doug: I'd rather have them in DOM3 Events which is more general; these would be usef in SVG as well
16:56:24 <fantasai> Sylvain: We're talking about cssom-view
16:56:35 <fantasai> Sylvian: A lot of that has to do with formalizing stuff to the CSS box model.
16:56:43 <fantasai> Sylvain: Would it really be useful in an SVG document?
16:56:48 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:57:15 <fantasai> Sylvain: do you really want to use these properties in SVG? They're legacy, they're not extensions in a good sense, they're there to document legacy interop behavior
16:57:50 <fantasai> Doug: I'll talk with SVG WG to see if we want these features
16:58:24 <fantasai> Sylvain: Not all these features will be useful in SVG
16:58:35 <fantasai> Sylvain: It would be nice if it was clean and you only had one dependency, but...
16:59:44 <fantasai> Doug: Perhaps the best solution would be to define the relation of the padding box in CSS and the bounding box in SVG
17:00:05 <fantasai> Doug: As for gradients, I didn't see anything you can't do in SVG. I'm happy to help with examples.
17:00:06 <Zakim> -shepazu
17:00:29 <Zakim> -hyatt
17:00:30 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:00:31 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
17:00:32 <Zakim> -bradk
17:00:32 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:00:33 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:00:33 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:00:35 <Zakim> -plinss
17:00:36 <Zakim> -glazou
17:00:38 <Zakim> -Bert
17:00:40 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:00:42 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, plinss, TabAtkins, +1.206.324.aaaa, sylvaing, bradk, +1.281.419.aabb, hyatt, David_Baron, Bert, fantasai, CesarAcebal, SteveZ, shepazu
17:00:44 <fantasai> Meeting closed
17:01:20 <CesarAcebal> CesarAcebal has left #css
17:01:23 <TabAtkins> I still cannot distinguish between glazou and sylvaing on the phone.  >_<  Perhaps some ftf will help.
17:01:43 <glazou> TabAtkins: I'll try to use an even more french accent next time
17:01:45 <TabAtkins> But then, Brad and I apparently sound similar.
17:01:57 <TabAtkins> glazou: That'll work.
17:01:59 <glazou> #glazou { voice: InspectorClouseau; }
17:02:18 <glazou> yes Brad and I sound similar
17:02:56 <TabAtkins> shepazu: I don't doubt that all the images are pretty easy to do as static versions.  What I'm not sure of is if they can be done while resizing with the box in the same way.
17:03:12 <TabAtkins> I can give details on exactly how they're supposed to stretch.
17:03:20 <TabAtkins> So you don't have to read the draft.  ^_^
17:04:13 <bradk> oui, monsieur
17:05:06 <glazou> bradk: if you start speaking french too, TabAtkins  will be totally lost ;-)
17:05:11 <TabAtkins> omg
17:05:26 <Bert> If we all started talking French, maybe it would be easier to know who talked... :-)
17:05:31 <bradk> I'll just do a John Wayne impersonation from now on.
17:05:32 <glazou> LOL
17:05:47 <TabAtkins> I'll go heavy texan drawl.
17:05:56 <TabAtkins> It may be harder to understand me, but at least I'll be easy to identify.
17:06:34 <glazou> or sylvaing and I can spea french, howcome norwegian, bert dutch
17:06:51 <TabAtkins> I support this proposal.
17:07:23 <glazou> and for side discussions, I'll use swedish with howcome and spanish with Cesar
17:07:30 <glazou> ;)
17:07:59 <glazou> anyway, time to cook dinner, bye people
17:08:15 <Bert> It'll be like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle: we'll either know that it's Tab who speak, or we'll know what he says, but not both at the same time :-)
17:08:23 <glazou> ROFL
17:08:34 <glazou> bye
17:08:38 <bradk> lol
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17:35:53 <hyatt> well a bit north up in The Woodlands :)
17:37:32 <TabAtkins> Holy crap, really?  My parents live in Spring.
17:37:49 <TabAtkins> I'm about an hour away from there now, down in Richmond in the SW.
17:38:24 <hyatt> cool
17:38:29 <hyatt> yeah i work remotely for apple
17:44:25 <TabAtkins> We need to get drinks sometime when I'm up there.
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17:57:03 <fantasai> TabAtkins: It's not that you and Brad sound all that similar, it's just that you're both unfamiliar.
17:59:21 <fantasai> TabAtkins: btw, do you have dev.w3.org access?
17:59:31 <fantasai> TabAtkins: if not, you should send your ssh key to Bert so he can set that up
17:59:49 <fantasai> hyatt: Do you guys use the 'repeat' option for border-image anywhere?
18:00:11 <hyatt> mostly just use stretch
18:00:28 <hyatt> somebody may use repeat though
18:00:31 <hyatt> i'd have to ask ichat folks
18:00:51 <fantasai> can you do that? because it seems like it's not very useful as defined
18:01:07 <fantasai> according to recent discussion on the list
18:01:12 <fantasai> so I'm thinking maybe we should just drop it
18:01:15 <fantasai> and replace it with 'space'
18:04:20 <dbaron> I suspect 'repeat' may be only useful as a performance optimization when the stretching that 'round' does isn't necessary because the border is uniform.
18:04:26 <dbaron> (uniform on the sides)
18:04:47 <hyatt> we've basically hit the "just back away from border image until it stops churning" point in webkit
18:04:54 <hyatt> we're ignoring it until it settles down
18:04:54 <hyatt> sinc
18:05:02 <hyatt> since it's so different now from what we originally implemented
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19:33:13 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Hmm, I sent Bert my key after the first telecon.  I suspeect something's slipped through the cracks.
19:34:24 <Bert> Let me check what happened.
19:34:33 <TabAtkins> Cool.
19:36:34 <Bert> 26 Aug, that must be working by now, in theory...
19:37:16 <Bert> You didn't get an e-mail with confirmation, in the week following the 26th?
19:37:46 <Bert> Yes, 3 Sep
19:37:55 <TabAtkins> Hmm, dont' think so, but let me check.
19:38:14 <Bert> Maybe it was only sent to me then.
19:38:27 <Bert> In that case, it's my fault for not forwarding it.
19:38:44 <Bert> (But I don't think I ever had to forward it before.)
19:39:02 <Bert> In any case, it's supposed to be working.
19:39:23 <Bert> You're recommended to read  http://www.w3.org/Project/CVSdoc/
19:39:31 <Bert> and http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/SettingUpSshCvs
19:40:36 <Bert> If you have an ssh command handy, you can try: ssh dev.w3.org
19:40:42 <TabAtkins> Yeah, didn't get anything on Sep 3rd.
19:40:46 <TabAtkins> k, one sec.
19:40:52 <Bert> You can't actually log in, it's CVS only, but
19:40:58 <Bert> it should not give any errors.
19:41:52 <TabAtkins> Yeah, getting a prompt.
19:42:40 <Bert> A prompt, really? It's supposed to just stop with an empty line.
19:43:07 <Bert> But maybe your ssh client is different frommine.
19:44:00 <Bert> But as long as you get no error about refused access, I guess it's OK.
19:44:12 <Bert> Next step is setting up CVS :-)
19:48:06 <TabAtkins> Well, I get a login prompt I mean.  Not a command prompt.
19:48:44 <TabAtkins> Ooh, I didn't know Tortoise made a CVS client.  Awesome.
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20:44:07 <fantasai> TabAtkins: So, the way this works is you edit Overview.src.html
20:44:19 <fantasai> TabAtkins: Overview.html is generated from Overview.src.html
20:44:22 <TabAtkins> k
20:44:29 <fantasai> TabAtkins: There are two ways to do that, one is via Bert's form
20:44:45 <fantasai> TabAtkins: The other is via commandline
20:45:00 <fantasai> TabAtkins: I usually run a script with the relevant command to generate Overview.html
20:45:46 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/bin/postprocess
20:46:34 <fantasai> The script I use is just a text file with
20:46:41 <fantasai> curl -u user:PASS -F file=@Overview.src.html -F group=CSS -F output=html -F method=file http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/process.cgi -o Overview.html
20:47:32 <fantasai> TabAtkins: So you should now be able to copy your proposal into the css3-images Editor's Draft
20:48:19 <TabAtkins> k
20:49:32 <Bert> If you like the command line and have a "make" command, there are some handy Makefiles in various directories.
20:54:59 <TabAtkins> Hrm...
20:55:02 <Bert> B.t.w, fantasai, I don't think your latest edit to Backgrounds is correct. ceil() is better than round(), bcause it creates fewer raster artifacts. Moreover, you introduced a risk of incompatibility by allowing UAs to use different algorithms in unsepcified cases.
21:17:24 <TabAtkins> Huh.  I keep getting a "[checkout aborted]: end of file from server" error.
21:19:39 <Bert> Not an error message that I recognize...
21:19:53 <Bert> Are you using the correct path?
21:20:48 <Bert> From the top lebel directory of your checkout space: cvs get csswg/css3-images
21:22:40 <TabAtkins> Ah, getting a better error message now.  I still don't have my key set up properly.
21:24:32 <Bert> Did you set a CVSROOT? Try including your login in that: CVSROOT=tatkinsj@dev.w3.org:/sources/public
21:24:51 <TabAtkins> Yeah, CVSROOT's fine.  I just haven't connected an ssh tunnel yet.
21:25:24 <Bert> You shouldn't need a tunnel. CVS uses ssh directly.
21:25:55 <Bert> As long as you tell it to. I have CVS_RSH=ssh
21:29:22 <TabAtkins> How is it telling what my key is, though?  At the moment I keep getting a "Host key verification failed"
21:30:32 <Bert> Try ssh -v dev.w3.org in a terminal. Among the many lines of output should be the various keys it tries.
21:31:21 <TabAtkins> Ah, yup, none of those are my key.  One moment.
21:35:57 <TabAtkins> Hrm, so trying to a direct ssh connection finds my key now, but still dies with "Host key verification failed."
21:36:08 <TabAtkins> That should just be my public key, right?
21:38:05 <Bert> Yes, it should use id_rsa
21:39:26 <TabAtkins> Bleh, still no good.  Same error.  Hrm.
21:40:07 <Bert> Wait, host key you said?
21:40:22 <Bert> Maybe you haven't accepted the host key yet.
21:40:50 <Bert> Did you get prompted with a hex fingerprint and a question to accept an unknown host?
21:41:49 <TabAtkins> Hmm, I don't think so.
21:42:34 <Bert> The host key is the key from dev.w3.org that is verified by your ssh client. dev.w3.org in return verifies your RSA key.
21:43:32 <Bert> I have a file "known_hosts" that contains the key from dev.w3.org. The first time I connected, that got added.
21:43:51 <TabAtkins> Hm, my /.ssh folder doesn't have known_hosts.  I wonder why?
21:45:13 <Bert> Obvious first question: is the directory writable? :-)
21:46:48 <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's 700.
21:47:55 <Bert> That's what it should be, yes.
21:50:23 <TabAtkins> How strange.  I'm sshing into it from my work server, and it asks me about the fingerprint like normal.  I'm just not getting that from my personal server.
21:50:32 <TabAtkins> Shrug, I guess I'll use my work server for it.
21:55:32 <Bert> Do you have a ./ssh/config file with options in it that should not apply to dev.w3.org?
21:55:45 <TabAtkins> Nope.
21:56:36 <TabAtkins> Got it checked out now on my work server.
21:56:46 <TabAtkins> Was easy on a computer that wasn't crazy.
21:57:40 <Bert> Is your machine hacked and are you running an ssh that's actually a trojan without you knowing it? (public key systems make you paranoid. :-) )
21:58:33 <TabAtkins> Doubt it.  My server provider is quite good about that.
22:01:05 <Bert>  and then reassembled machine.
22:01:18 <Bert> What he didn't put back was the case :-)
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22:01:49 <TabAtkins> By the end of this year birthday+xmas money will purchase me a new desktop, which will be disassembled at all times.
22:01:53 <Bert> It was just loose components hanging on their own wires.
22:01:58 <TabAtkins> I will hold it on a shelf.
22:02:27 <TabAtkins> Cases are a luxury.
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22:49:29 <TabAtkins> Hmm, got it uploaded, but it looks like a wall of text.  There's no margin on the <p>s.
22:49:42 <TabAtkins> fantasai, clues?
22:58:46 <fantasai> <p>s in CSS specs tend to be indented rather than margin'd
22:59:45 <fantasai> if they don't look like a wall of text, it's because we have lots of section headings, examples, notes, images, lists, etc. to break it up :)
23:01:36 <TabAtkins> Hrm.  I am going to have to do something to visually break this up then.
23:05:11 <fantasai> examples are always welcome :)
23:05:45 <TabAtkins> Yeah.  I've got some inline examples in the text right now that I'll rip out into example blocks.
23:11:31 <Bert> Wall of text... It's a Motown production? :-)
23:13:32 <TabAtkins> Night, bert.  Thanks for the help.
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