IRC log of sparql on 2009-09-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:51:01 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #sparql

13:51:01 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-sparql-irc

13:51:03 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:51:03 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #sparql

13:51:05 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 77277

13:51:06 [trackbot]

Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

13:51:06 [trackbot]

Date: 29 September 2009

13:51:07 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes

13:51:23 [LeeF]

Chair: LeeF

13:51:28 [LeeF]

Regrets: SimonS

13:51:47 [LeeF]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-09-29

13:52:03 [LeeF]

LeeF has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-09-29

13:56:32 [SteveH]

they will now :)

13:56:42 [LeeF]

Not once I play my Jedi mind tricks.

13:56:48 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

13:56:55 [Zakim]

+??P4

13:57:20 [SteveH]

Zakim, ??P4 is [Garlik]

13:57:20 [Zakim]

+[Garlik]; got it

13:57:21 [Zakim]

+LeeF

13:57:43 [chimezie]

chimezie has joined #sparql

13:57:58 [Zakim]

+kasei

13:58:01 [chimezie]

Zakim, what is the passcode?

13:58:02 [Zakim]

the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie

13:58:03 [Zakim]

+OlivierCorby

13:58:34 [kasei]

Zakim, mute me

13:58:34 [Zakim]

kasei should now be muted

13:58:35 [Zakim]

+Chimezie_Ogbuji

13:58:55 [chimezie]

Zakim, mute me

13:58:55 [Zakim]

Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted

13:59:36 [chimezie]

Zakim, unmute me

13:59:36 [Zakim]

Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted

13:59:46 [LeeF]

Scribe: Chimezie

13:59:48 [LeeF]

Scribenick: chimezie

13:59:58 [Zakim]

+bglimm

14:00:02 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:00:02 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [Garlik], LeeF, kasei (muted), OlivierCorby, Chimezie_Ogbuji, bglimm

14:00:08 [bglimm]

bglimm has joined #SPARQL

14:00:23 [Zakim]

+AxelPolleres

14:00:24 [bglimm]

I can hear you

14:00:35 [Zakim]

+??P38

14:00:47 [Zakim]

+pgearon

14:00:49 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P38 is me

14:00:49 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:00:52 [bglimm]

Zakim, mute me

14:00:52 [Zakim]

bglimm should now be muted

14:00:56 [SimonKJ]

SimonKJ has joined #sparql

14:01:28 [chimezie]

Zakim, who is here?

14:01:28 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [Garlik], LeeF, kasei (muted), OlivierCorby, Chimezie_Ogbuji, bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, AndyS, pgearon

14:01:30 [Zakim]

On IRC I see SimonKJ, bglimm, chimezie, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, pgearon, OlivierCorby, LeeF, AxelPolleres, karl, LukeWM, ivan, danbri, iv_an_ru, SteveH, kjetil, AlexPassant, kasei,

14:01:32 [Zakim]

... KjetilK, trackbot, ericP

14:01:40 [LeeF]

ericP, joining us?

14:01:44 [LeeF]

ivan, joining us?

14:01:47 [LeeF]

iv_an_ru, joining us?

14:01:53 [chimezie]

Zakim, mute me

14:01:53 [Zakim]

Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted

14:02:04 [LeeF]

kjetil, joining us?

14:02:07 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:02:07 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:02:08 [Zakim]

+Ivan

14:02:18 [ivan]

LeeF: yes:-)

14:02:21 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:02:22 [Zakim]

+??P1

14:02:26 [AlexPassant]

Zakim, ??P1 is me

14:02:26 [Zakim]

+AlexPassant; got it

14:02:56 [Zakim]

+SimonKJ

14:03:15 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:03:15 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [Garlik], LeeF, kasei (muted), OlivierCorby, Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, AndyS, pgearon, Ivan, AlexPassant, EricP, SimonKJ

14:04:12 [LeeF]

topic: Admin

14:04:13 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-22

14:04:19 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.588.aaaa - is perhaps manrique?

14:04:40 [LeeF]

zakim, aaaa is Orri

14:04:40 [Zakim]

sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

14:04:45 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:04:45 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [Garlik], LeeF, kasei (muted), OlivierCorby, Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, AndyS, pgearon, Ivan, AlexPassant, EricP, SimonKJ, manrique?

14:04:50 [LeeF]

zakim, manrique? is Orri

14:04:50 [Zakim]

+Orri; got it

14:05:08 [SteveH]

minutes look fine

14:05:10 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-22

14:05:40 [LeeF]

next meeting is October 6 same time

14:06:00 [chimezie]

LeeF:Axel to chair next week

14:06:04 [bglimm]

I cannot make it

14:06:10 [LeeF]

regrets for next week: bglimm, leef, and ericp at risk

14:06:11 [bglimm]

next week (travellking)

14:06:37 [chimezie]

speaker:anyone else making ISWC meeting?

14:06:40 [bglimm]

s/travellking/travelling/

14:06:55 [AndyS]

AndyS has joined #sparql

14:07:00 [AxelPolleres]

good idea to meet up @ ISWC, maybe we shall collect who's there

14:07:05 [chimezie]

s/speaker/pgearon

14:07:06 [chimezie]

ty

14:07:16 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2

14:08:09 [chimezie]

LeeF: want to start putting together agenda and logistics for F2F

14:08:19 [AxelPolleres]

collected so far planning to go to ISWC: steveH, chime, LeeF, AxelP

14:08:27 [chimezie]

... need to know RSVP

14:08:44 [SteveH]

AlexPassant, also Greg Williams

14:09:00 [chimezie]

LeeF:All organizations need to re-join group

14:09:06 [SteveH]

AxelPolleres, and ericP

14:09:31 [LeeF]

topic: Liaisons

14:09:38 [SteveH]

LeeF, do you have a list of who's not rejoined?

14:09:45 [ericP]

nothing from XQuery or HCLS

14:09:57 [ivan]

OWL is now really in PR

14:10:00 [AxelPolleres]

riff is meeting today, but didn't have meeting last week

14:10:00 [LeeF]

SteveH, good question - I don't offhand but imagine ivan might be able to compile one?

14:10:08 [AxelPolleres]

s/riff/RIF/

14:10:36 [chimezie]

LeeF: Eric ask HCLS about F2F meeting at ISWC

14:10:50 [chimezie]

ericP: probably will involve usecases for distributed query and update

14:11:35 [chimezie]

LeeF:open actions

14:11:52 [chimezie]

Ori: who is leading RDB2RDF?

14:11:53 [LeeF]

topic: actions & issues

14:12:08 [chimezie]

s/Ori/Orri

14:12:12 [ivan]

To Orri: Harry Halpin Staff Contact, Ahmed Ezzat HP, Michael Hausenblas DERI

14:12:14 [AndyS]

http://www.w3.org/2009/08/rdb2rdf-charter

14:12:50 [chimezie]

LeeF: looking at errata. Only looking at the diff

14:13:05 [chimezie]

... *then* merge content.

14:13:22 [SteveH]

yes

14:13:39 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open

14:13:48 [chimezie]

LeeF: looked at open issues - summarizing state of issues

14:13:55 [LeeF]

issues summary - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0419.html

14:14:39 [chimezie]

... will propose to resolve some issues (perhaps next week).

14:14:46 [AndyS]

I took a look and they looked fine.

14:15:11 [AxelPolleres]

q+ to report on ACTION-98

14:15:18 [LeeF]

ack AxelPolleres

14:15:18 [Zakim]

AxelPolleres, you wanted to report on ACTION-98

14:15:30 [chimezie]

Zakim, unmute me

14:15:31 [Zakim]

Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted

14:15:37 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ACTION-98

14:15:37 [trackbot]

ACTION-98 Ask ivan/eric whether we need to mention time permitting features in FPWD. closed

14:16:56 [chimezie]

ACTION-78 & ACTION-79 probably should be closed (can't go further)

14:17:05 [chimezie]

w/out something to review, etc.

14:17:20 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ACTION-78

14:17:20 [trackbot]

ACTION-78 Continue discussion of update= vs. query= on the mailing list closed

14:17:31 [Zakim]

+??P43

14:17:32 [chimezie]

LeeF: Simon and I will work into update document

14:17:35 [SteveH]

q+

14:17:39 [KjetilK]

Zakim, ??P43 is me

14:17:39 [Zakim]

+KjetilK; got it

14:17:52 [KjetilK]

Zakim, mute me

14:17:52 [Zakim]

KjetilK should now be muted

14:18:19 [chimezie]

SteveH: investigate use of single verb

14:18:26 [chimezie]

... for HAVING/FILTER

14:18:49 [LeeF]

let's talk about HAVING vs. FILTER later

14:18:50 [chimezie]

LeeF: will discuss aggregate issue later today

14:18:53 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ACTION-78

14:18:53 [trackbot]

ACTION-78 Continue discussion of update= vs. query= on the mailing list closed

14:19:02 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ACTION-79

14:19:03 [trackbot]

ACTION-79 Continue forward with aggregates w.r.t test cases, HAVING/FILTER clause, ISSUE-35, ... closed

14:19:22 [chimezie]

LeeF: any other action to close?

14:19:48 [chimezie]

... Andy asked about tracking issues in task forces

14:20:03 [chimezie]

LeeF: Chairs will monitor and will elevate outstanding issues

14:20:30 [Zakim]

-EricP

14:20:34 [chimezie]

... scalability concerns, etc..

14:20:42 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:21:06 [chimezie]

... members bring forth issues if they think they need to be raised. does that work?

14:21:07 [ericP]

+1

14:21:09 [bglimm]

+1

14:21:11 [SteveH]

+1

14:21:24 [AndyS]

+1 (label issues with TF-XXX?)

14:21:32 [bglimm]

we could use a prefix, like for emails

14:21:46 [AxelPolleres]

+1 (good idea to label)

14:22:00 [LeeF]

topic: FPWDs

14:22:21 [Zakim]

+Prateek

14:23:03 [chimezie]

LeeF: (to team contacts). How do reviewers raise technical issues? What should reviewers look for towards FPWD

14:23:06 [ericP]

+1

14:23:10 [AndyS]

DAWG?

14:24:02 [chimezie]

IvanH: there is no obvious process other than general formatting, etc. nothing specific

14:24:46 [AxelPolleres]

to be checked technical issues, abstract, formatting

14:25:02 [SteveH]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/

14:25:29 [Prateek]

Prateek has joined #sparql

14:25:32 [AxelPolleres]

Reviewers for query from last time: birte, Lee

14:25:37 [bglimm]

I volunteered

14:26:05 [chimezie]

SteveH: no mention of aggregate functions. generally rough. grammar needs cleaning up

14:26:19 [chimezie]

LeeF: have open issue regarding exact collection of aggregate functions. COUNT, etc..

14:27:21 [chimezie]

AndyS: do we want to freeze that? I wanted to flesh out content

14:27:27 [SteveH]

q+

14:27:34 [chimezie]

LeeF: for FPWD , I'm not concerned about a frozen version

14:28:02 [LeeF]

ack SteveH

14:28:18 [chimezie]

SteveH: not happy having email address on document

14:28:26 [chimezie]

... can I have link to a home page instead?

14:28:34 [LeeF]

ACTION: Birte to review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ for FPWD readiness

14:28:34 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-99 - Review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ for FPWD readiness [on Birte Glimm - due 2009-10-06].

14:28:37 [bglimm]

ok

14:28:39 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ for FPWD readiness

14:28:39 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-100 - Review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ for FPWD readiness [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-06].

14:28:51 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/

14:29:17 [AxelPolleres]

reviewers for SPARQL/Update: Steve, Luke, Lee

14:29:24 [chimezie]

pgearon: was unavailable

14:29:48 [AxelPolleres]

I actually missed my own volunteering on reviewing Query... adding action...

14:30:01 [AxelPolleres]

ACTION: Axel o review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ for FPWD readiness

14:30:01 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-101 - O review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ for FPWD readiness [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-10-06].

14:30:01 [chimezie]

pgearon: I will catch up with other editor

14:30:32 [LeeF]

ACTION: Paul to notify Steve, Luke, and Lee when /Update is ready for FPWD review

14:30:33 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-102 - Notify Steve, Luke, and Lee when /Update is ready for FPWD review [on Paul Gearon - due 2009-10-06].

14:31:05 [chimezie]

LeeF: simon and i discussed the protocol document and sent course of action to list

14:31:18 [chimezie]

... waiting on simon to get setup with CVS access

14:31:18 [AndyS]

q+

14:31:38 [AxelPolleres]

reviewers for http-update: simonKJ, simonS, Lee

14:31:48 [AxelPolleres]

reviewers for protocol-1.1: Axel Alex

14:31:53 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/Overview.xml

14:32:17 [chimezie]

LeeF: a few areas about lack of support for XSLT

14:32:33 [LeeF]

q?

14:32:45 [chimezie]

ericP: need to extend the 'standard'..

14:33:32 [LeeF]

ACTION: Simon Johnston and Lee to notify Axel and Alex when /Protocol is ready for FPWD review

14:33:32 [trackbot]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Simon

14:33:32 [trackbot]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sjohnsto2, sschenk)

14:33:42 [LeeF]

ACTION: sjohnsto2 and Lee to notify Axel and Alex when /Protocol is ready for FPWD review

14:33:42 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-103 - And Lee to notify Axel and Alex when /Protocol is ready for FPWD review [on Simon Johnston - due 2009-10-06].

14:34:00 [LeeF]

ack AndyS

14:34:11 [chimezie]

AndyS: converting query 1.0 document to XML format

14:34:26 [LeeF]

Gist of current discussion is that we're editing the docs in XML and the xml-spec XSL needs to be updated to support all the XML tags we use before we actually publish the docs

14:34:33 [chimezie]

ericP: brought text into emacs, then did REGEX s/repl on various elements

14:34:56 [chimezie]

... no references

14:35:09 [chimezie]

AndyS: how are you doing that?

14:36:01 [LeeF]

ACTION: eric to xml-spec'ify the SPARQL Query/1.0 document

14:36:01 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-104 - Xml-spec'ify the SPARQL Query/1.0 document [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2009-10-06].

14:37:18 [chimezie]

ericP: [.. gives instructions to AndyS .. for XML processing infrastructure ]

14:37:50 [SimonKJ]

q+

14:37:55 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0416.html

14:38:04 [LeeF]

ack SimonKJ

14:38:34 [chimezie]

SimonKJ: What browsers should be used with that (problems in safari / chrome)

14:38:45 [chimezie]

ericP: depends on stylesheet implementation

14:39:00 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/

14:39:05 [SimonKJ]

confirmed, renders correctly in Firefox

14:40:45 [AndyS]

I'll review formally and write email.

14:40:54 [LeeF]

Andy, thanks

14:41:02 [LeeF]

SteveH and kjetil, are you interested in reviewing it?

14:41:19 [KjetilK]

Zakim, unmute me

14:41:19 [Zakim]

KjetilK should no longer be muted

14:41:58 [AxelPolleres]

reviewers (from last time) for http-update: member:simonKJ, simonS, Lee

14:42:47 [chimezie]

LeeF: [ .. asks around for reviewers .. ]

14:42:54 [chimezie]

speaker2: happy to review

14:43:10 [LeeF]

ACTION: Andy to review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/

14:43:10 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-105 - Review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ [on Andy Seaborne - due 2009-10-06].

14:43:13 [AxelPolleres]

s/speaker2/simonKJ/

14:43:16 [KjetilK]

q+

14:43:17 [chimezie]

ty

14:43:51 [chimezie]

KjetilK: been outside of group and remembered simon and I had opposing proposals for update

14:44:01 [LeeF]

ACTION: sjohnsto2 to review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/

14:44:01 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-106 - Review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ [on Simon Johnston - due 2009-10-06].

14:44:04 [chimezie]

LeeF: hopefully review raises those issues

14:44:08 [LeeF]

ACTOIN: kjetil to review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/

14:44:12 [LeeF]

ACTION: kjetil to review http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/

14:44:12 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - kjetil

14:44:16 [KjetilK]

Zakim, mute me

14:44:16 [Zakim]

KjetilK should now be muted

14:44:19 [KjetilK]

Zakim, unmute me

14:44:19 [Zakim]

KjetilK should no longer be muted

14:44:30 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to make sure that Kjetil reviews http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/

14:44:30 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-107 - Make sure that Kjetil reviews http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-06].

14:44:31 [AndyS]

chimezie, do you prefer commenst as ready or all at once?

14:44:38 [KjetilK]

Zakim, mute me

14:44:38 [Zakim]

KjetilK should now be muted

14:44:48 [chimezie]

I prefer all at once

14:44:56 [AndyS]

OK - will batch

14:47:32 [kasei]

Zakim, unmute me

14:47:32 [Zakim]

kasei should no longer be muted

14:47:55 [kasei]

sketch of service description doc: http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt

14:48:51 [LeeF]

AxelPolleres, who were our reviewers signed up for SD?

14:49:22 [chimezie]

kasei: format needs fleshing out.

14:49:29 [chimezie]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:49:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [Garlik], LeeF, kasei, OlivierCorby, Chimezie_Ogbuji, bglimm (muted), AxelPolleres, AndyS, pgearon, Ivan, AlexPassant, EricP, SimonKJ, Orri, KjetilK (muted),

14:49:32 [Zakim]

... Prateek

14:49:34 [chimezie]

LeeF: any completeness issues

14:49:56 [chimezie]

kasei: if everyone is onboard with email proposal (limiting scope of vocabulary),

14:50:20 [chimezie]

... only big issue is fleshed out discussion of discovery (conneg, RDFa, etc.). no missing parts, however

14:50:25 [chimezie]

LeeF: get people reviewing

14:51:14 [LeeF]

ACTION: sjohnsto2 to review http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt for FPWD readiness (modulo formatting)

14:51:14 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-108 - Review http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt for FPWD readiness (modulo formatting) [on Simon Johnston - due 2009-10-06].

14:51:24 [LeeF]

ACTION: Axel to review http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt for FPWD readiness (modulo formatting)

14:51:24 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-109 - Review http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt for FPWD readiness (modulo formatting) [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-10-06].

14:51:39 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to review http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt for FPWD readiness (modulo formatting)

14:51:40 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-110 - Review http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd.txt for FPWD readiness (modulo formatting) [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-06].

14:52:37 [AxelPolleres]

+1 to pull PP forward, didn't really have a chance to prepare on Entailment yet, my bad.

14:52:41 [chimezie]

LeeF: happy with email responses?

14:52:49 [chimezie]

AndyS: fine on mailing list

14:53:40 [SteveH]

I'd like to hear from implementors

14:53:41 [chimezie]

LeeF: any other issues beyond email dialog?

14:53:58 [SteveH]

also, I think my vote for 2 goes from 0 to -1, I've heard scary things

14:54:09 [kasei]

Zakim, mute me

14:54:09 [Zakim]

kasei should now be muted

14:54:45 [bglimm]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:EntailmentRegimes

14:54:59 [bglimm]

There is quite a bit to do still

14:55:36 [bglimm]

Zakim, unmute me

14:55:36 [Zakim]

bglimm should no longer be muted

14:55:47 [chimezie]

LeeF: AndyS asked about requirements

14:56:20 [chimezie]

... how do we (in timely fashion) to where we are in agreement on requirements

14:56:25 [bglimm]

q+ to ask about SHOULD MUST or MAY

14:56:28 [chimezie]

... and what problem we are trying to solve

14:56:31 [KjetilK]

q-

14:56:38 [LeeF]

ack bglimm

14:56:38 [Zakim]

bglimm, you wanted to ask about SHOULD MUST or MAY

14:57:02 [chimezie]

bglimm: one argument was regarding consistency tests for RDFS. inconsistent KB or RDFS graph would entail any consequence

14:57:07 [chimezie]

... andy suggested turning into MAY

14:57:19 [chimezie]

... against RDFS entailment. SHOULD is preferred

14:57:40 [pgearon]

+q

14:57:50 [chimezie]

AndyS: initial question is regarding what we are addressing

14:58:09 [chimezie]

i think the usecase addressed is well motivated by current document

14:58:09 [bglimm]

well, we want RDFS entailment and we want scalable

14:58:18 [AxelPolleres]

q+

14:58:37 [chimezie]

AndyS: are we enabling rule-based engines. what happens about lack of soundess/completeness?

14:59:20 [chimezie]

i.e., lack of additional answers that follow from more than explicit matching (i.e., vocabulary based interpretations)

14:59:36 [bglimm]

I think we can have something like OWL RL, but I would like to give explanations on when implementations are incomplete

15:00:04 [AxelPolleres]

q-

15:00:14 [AxelPolleres]

(will do this on the mailinglist)

15:00:16 [chimezie]

pgearon: concerned about practical aspects of inconsistent RDF graph returning everythin

15:00:36 [chimezie]

... w/out sufficient bindings, alot of patterns could theoretically return infinite set (won't make much sense)

15:00:44 [AxelPolleres]

q+ to now still mention something.

15:00:45 [Zakim]

-Orri

15:01:13 [chimezie]

... not sure how infinite set will work

15:01:29 [bglimm]

Yes, as I understand Andy, he said that he can guarantee that he would either return some answers (which are sound) and then stop without finding the inconsistency or he finds it and then stops

15:01:37 [chimezie]

we already require that queries are safe WRT current SPARQL

15:01:38 [LeeF]

ack AxelPolleres

15:01:38 [Zakim]

AxelPolleres, you wanted to now still mention something.

15:01:44 [LeeF]

ack pgearon

15:02:04 [bglimm]

yes

15:02:09 [AndyS]

bglimm, no.

15:02:20 [bglimm]

ok, explain

15:02:30 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: legal graphs are RDFS consistent..already prescribed.

15:02:54 [chimezie]

AndyS: i want a list of requirements to measure design against

15:03:08 [ivan]

q+

15:03:09 [chimezie]

q+ dont' we already have requiremnts?

15:04:18 [ivan]

q-

15:04:25 [LeeF]

q= chimezie

15:04:26 [chimezie]

AndyS: we need to consider protocol implications

15:04:28 [LeeF]

q+ chimezie

15:04:42 [ivan]

q+

15:05:01 [chimezie]

bglimm: non terminating system will seem 'okay'

15:05:13 [LeeF]

ack chimezie

15:05:58 [bglimm]

Yes, and one thing is that entailment regimes must say how they guarantee that a system will always return a finite set of answers

15:06:22 [bglimm]

There is a list of 4 requirements that entailment regimes must specify

15:06:45 [bglimm]

Yes, you can allow incomplete systems, for example

15:08:01 [AxelPolleres]

"The effect of a query on an inconsistent graph is not covered by this specification, but must be specified by the particular SPARQL extension." is all I find in the current spec.

15:08:09 [LeeF]

ack ivan

15:08:25 [AxelPolleres]

... but this suggests that we have to define a behavior.

15:08:25 [AxelPolleres]

15:08:44 [chimezie]

bglimm: is this the case that a claim about error is not required in addition to the guarantee of safe queries?

15:08:48 [AxelPolleres]

ayways, I think for FPWD, it is enough to list the options.

15:09:01 [LeeF]

ISSUE: TF-ENT What should happen for RDFS entailment in the face of inconsistencies?

15:09:01 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-42 - TF-ENT What should happen for RDFS entailment in the face of inconsistencies? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/42/edit .

15:09:06 [chimezie]

er.. i didn't mean to scribe that in such a way

15:09:13 [chimezie]

s/bglimm:/bglimm,

15:09:34 [chimezie]

AndyS: talking about if we must check for inconsistency *before* answering the question?

15:09:41 [bglimm]

I agree with Ivan

15:09:49 [chimezie]

Ivan: valid question, need to answer it

15:09:50 [LeeF]

ISSUE-42: Related - do you have to check a graph for consistency to deliver answers for RDFS entailment

15:09:50 [trackbot]

ISSUE-42 TF-ENT What should happen for RDFS entailment in the face of inconsistencies? notes added

15:10:10 [chimezie]

Ivan: shouldn't be part of the document

15:10:23 [chimezie]

AndyS: want a requirements phase/discussion

15:10:58 [chimezie]

If we tease out error handling, expectation, safety of queries, this might clarify the discussion

15:11:40 [bglimm]

Andy, I did send this around to get feedback. If you say that some aspect causes difficulties with certain implementation techniques that is valueable feedback, but please explain what actually is the problem, what ways do we have to solve that etc

15:12:28 [kasei]

I share Andy's concerns.

15:12:38 [pgearon]

+1

15:12:57 [chimezie]

for BGP queries solved in a top-down fashion, you aren't doing validity checking, but are answering a question against a known fact base

15:13:08 [AxelPolleres]

I see here the following options: the current spec just says that the effect has to be specified, it doesn't prescribe that these could be specified as implementation-dependent. Let's just summarize the options for FPWD.

15:13:08 [ivan]

for the records: I do share Andy's technical concerns!

15:13:57 [chimezie]

LeeF: was suggesting we proceed in a way to better collect requirements

15:13:57 [SteveH]

q+

15:14:09 [chimezie]

AndyS: happy if requirements phase is not explicit

15:14:09 [LeeF]

q?

15:14:21 [LeeF]

ack SteveH

15:14:54 [chimezie]

SteveH: shares Andy's concern it is not obvious what kind of systems are being targeted by current proposal

15:15:32 [chimezie]

bglimm: The systems will be different. I'm using OWL reasoner - different approach . if there are wording problems let me know

15:15:40 [ivan]

q+

15:17:32 [chimezie]

LeeF: first time around, specification defines answers.

15:17:50 [chimezie]

... then while debating technical points. arguements were based on implementation technique

15:18:33 [kasei]

I thought that's just what Andy has done... (?)

15:19:01 [LeeF]

kasei, right, i think that's exactly what Andy has done

15:19:17 [chimezie]

LeeF: i might not be able to scribe too much longer :(

15:19:26 [LeeF]

chimezie, no prob - thanks for scribing

15:19:29 [chimezie]

Ivan: should i as an implementor check consistency and what do I do if I find them?

15:19:34 [AxelPolleres]

I can take over...

15:19:51 [AxelPolleres]

scribe: Axel Polleres

15:20:15 [LukeWM]

90 minutes is a long time, chimezie

15:20:31 [AxelPolleres]

Ivan: 2 questions, a) should inconsistency always be checked b) what is to be done in case

15:20:47 [AxelPolleres]

LeeF: Birte can you summarize these?

15:20:47 [LeeF]

q?

15:20:49 [LeeF]

ack ivan

15:21:18 [ivan]

q+

15:21:28 [AxelPolleres]

LeeF: we need more formal reviews.

15:21:42 [AxelPolleres]

... what's ready to review.

15:21:54 [AxelPolleres]

Birte: only RDFS part ready for review.

15:22:16 [AxelPolleres]

LeeF: happy to wait.

15:22:40 [AxelPolleres]

Birte: Let's reach more agreement on RDFS first.

15:23:19 [AxelPolleres]

Andy & Birte discussing whether MUST->MAY is sufficient or not.

15:23:32 [AxelPolleres]

q+

15:24:06 [AxelPolleres]

ivanherman: ready to review, but next week is difficult, question of timing.

15:24:16 [LeeF]

ACTION: ivan to review RDFS part of http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:EntailmentRegimes as time permits him

15:24:16 [trackbot]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan

15:24:16 [trackbot]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)

15:24:20 [chimezie]

bglimm: if a system is doing proper RDFS consistency checking, this is at least a superset of what it needs to do in order to answer queries (even semi-niavely)

15:24:23 [LeeF]

ACTION: ivanh to review RDFS part of http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:EntailmentRegimes as time permits him

15:24:23 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - ivanh

15:24:31 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to make sure IvanH reviews RDFS part of http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:EntailmentRegimes as time permits him

15:24:31 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-111 - Make sure IvanH reviews RDFS part of http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:EntailmentRegimes as time permits him [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2009-10-06].

15:24:47 [AxelPolleres]

... another thing which should be mentioned is RIF and OWL RL.

15:24:49 [bglimm]

I added a template section for RIF and OWL RL

15:25:02 [AndyS]

Suggest an example with a simple case like subClassOf (editorial)

15:25:08 [AxelPolleres]

LeeF: agreed.

15:25:10 [bglimm]

and D-etnailemnt

15:25:22 [LeeF]

q?

15:25:24 [Zakim]

-Chimezie_Ogbuji

15:25:25 [LeeF]

ack ivan

15:26:09 [AxelPolleres]

Axel: will try to add something on the RIF part.

15:26:26 [AxelPolleres]

... and give the remaining doc a thorough review.

15:26:50 [AxelPolleres]

LeeF: looks like we are on track for the rquired docs with regards reviews

15:27:09 [AxelPolleres]

... F&R should be possible to publish without too much discussion.

15:27:21 [AxelPolleres]

... 90mins is long.

15:27:59 [bglimm]

I think I can write mine until Monday and send it by email, but I'll be away on Tuesday

15:28:27 [SteveH]

I can't do anything my monday either

15:28:28 [Zakim]

-Ivan

15:28:31 [SteveH]

by

15:28:49 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml

15:28:50 [LeeF]

AxelPolleres, any chance you can do the minutes dance?

15:28:54 [bglimm]

bye

15:28:57 [AxelPolleres]

Axel: All who volunteered for reviews, please try to have them ready for discussion by next week, we will discuss whatever is ready/reviewed already.

15:28:58 [Zakim]

-bglimm

15:29:09 [AxelPolleres]

lee, can do, no prob.

15:29:09 [Zakim]

-pgearon

15:29:14 [Zakim]

-Prateek

15:29:16 [SteveH]

it's not legal xml.... ok

15:29:16 [LeeF]

ACTION-104: See http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml

15:29:16 [trackbot]

ACTION-104 Xml-spec'ify the SPARQL Query/1.0 document notes added

15:29:20 [LeeF]

trackbot, close ACTION-104

15:29:20 [trackbot]

ACTION-104 Xml-spec'ify the SPARQL Query/1.0 document closed

15:29:33 [Zakim]

-EricP

15:29:33 [SteveH]

bye

15:29:34 [Zakim]

-LeeF

15:29:36 [Zakim]

-AxelPolleres

15:29:37 [Zakim]

-SimonKJ

15:29:38 [Zakim]

-[Garlik]

15:29:38 [Zakim]

-kasei

15:29:39 [LukeWM]

bye

15:29:43 [Zakim]

-AlexPassant

15:29:44 [Zakim]

-KjetilK

15:29:50 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:29:50 [AxelPolleres]

rrsagent, make records public

15:29:59 [OlivierCorby]

OlivierCorby has left #sparql

15:30:05 [Zakim]

-OlivierCorby

15:30:06 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

15:30:07 [Zakim]

Attendees were [Garlik], LeeF, kasei, OlivierCorby, Chimezie_Ogbuji, bglimm, AxelPolleres, pgearon, AndyS, Ivan, EricP, AlexPassant, SimonKJ, +1.617.588.aaaa, Orri, KjetilK,

15:30:09 [Zakim]

... Prateek

15:30:22 [AxelPolleres]

member:rrsagent, make records public

15:30:34 [AxelPolleres]

rrsagent, make records public

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21:19:01 [danbri]

http://www.w3.org/News/2009#item172 WebSimpleDB API First Draft Published

21:38:28 [KjetilK]

gives me a NIH feeling...

21:51:59 [bglimm]

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