13:16:10 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 13:16:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-irc 13:16:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:16:12 Zakim has joined #bpwg 13:16:14 Zakim, this will be BPWG 13:16:14 ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 13:16:15 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 13:16:15 Date: 29 September 2009 13:16:18 Chair: Jo 13:16:27 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/4AC0A5E7.7030300@mtld.mobi 13:17:09 yyesilad has joined #bpwg 13:17:16 Regrets: Kai, Miguel, Abel, Francois 13:24:23 jeffs has joined #bpwg 13:27:39 brucel has joined #bpwg 13:28:31 Zakim, code? 13:28:31 the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo 13:28:50 MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has now started 13:28:56 +??P15 13:29:02 zakim, ??P15 is me 13:29:02 +tomhume; got it 13:29:07 +jo 13:30:23 +jeffs 13:30:43 +??P18 13:31:04 +DKA 13:31:06 zakim ??p18 is me 13:31:15 zakim, ??P18 is brucel 13:31:15 +brucel; got it 13:31:35 +Dom 13:31:56 zakim, who's on the call? 13:31:56 On the phone I see tomhume, jo, jeffs, brucel, DKA, Dom 13:33:29 cgi-irc has joined #bpwg 13:33:58 jsmanrique has joined #bpwg 13:34:22 SeanP has joined #bpwg 13:34:51 +adam 13:34:56 DKA has joined #bpwg 13:35:00 zakim, who is here? 13:35:00 On the phone I see tomhume, jo, jeffs, brucel, DKA, Dom, adam 13:35:02 On IRC I see DKA, SeanP, jsmanrique, adam, brucel, jeffs, yyesilad, Zakim, RRSAgent, dom, tomhume, jo, trackbot 13:35:04 zakim, who is here? 13:35:04 On the phone I see tomhume, jo, jeffs, brucel, DKA, Dom, adam 13:35:05 On IRC I see DKA, SeanP, jsmanrique, adam, brucel, jeffs, yyesilad, Zakim, RRSAgent, dom, tomhume, jo, trackbot 13:35:13 chaals has joined #bpwg 13:35:19 zakim, code? 13:35:19 the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chaals 13:35:28 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0117.html 13:35:32 EdC has joined #bpwg 13:35:42 Topic: Final F2F 13:35:59 -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/f2f-nov-2009/ Poll for F2F 13:36:00 Jo: There has been a poll. 13:36:02 -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/f2f-nov-2009/results Results of Poll for next F2F 13:36:04 +SeanP 13:36:05 +EdC 13:36:19 +hhalpin 13:36:43 zakim, can't you see me? 13:36:43 I don't understand your question, chaals. 13:36:46 +hhalpin.a 13:36:56 zakim, hhalpin is probably me 13:36:56 +chaals?; got it 13:37:07 zakim, hhalpin is probably chaals 13:37:07 +chaals?; got it 13:37:25 Jo: We have a nominal date and some offers of hosting. 13:37:35 Jo: Vodafone? 13:37:39 dom: maybe it is me 13:37:44 Dan: No confirmation as of today. 13:37:53 zakim, hhalpin.a is probably manrique 13:37:53 sorry, chaals, I do not understand your question 13:38:02 chaals: it is me ;) 13:38:03 zakim, hhalpin.a is probably manrique 13:38:03 sorry, dom, I do not understand your question 13:38:05 zakim, who is here? 13:38:05 On the phone I see tomhume, jo, jeffs, brucel, DKA, Dom, adam, EdC, SeanP, chaals?, chaals?.a 13:38:07 On IRC I see EdC, chaals, DKA, SeanP, jsmanrique, adam, brucel, jeffs, yyesilad, Zakim, RRSAgent, dom, tomhume, jo, trackbot 13:38:10 zakim, this wasn't a question 13:38:10 I don't understand 'this wasn't a question', dom 13:38:16 zakim, chaals.a is probably manrique 13:38:17 sorry, dom, I do not understand your question 13:38:21 zakim, chaals?.a is probably manrique 13:38:21 +manrique?; got it 13:38:24 zakim, chaals?.a is jmanrique 13:38:24 sorry, chaals, I do not recognize a party named 'chaals?.a' 13:38:38 zakim, who's on the phone? 13:38:38 On the phone I see tomhume, jo, jeffs, brucel, DKA, Dom, adam, EdC, SeanP, chaals?, manrique? 13:38:59 Jo: We have offers from Chaals in Norway. 13:38:59 +??P27 13:39:10 zakim, ??P27 is yeliz 13:39:10 +yeliz; got it 13:39:16 Jo: Reason I am keen on London - it's easy for people to get to. 13:39:22 (and Darmstadt) 13:39:41 Jo: Firm offers from Norway and Darmshtad. 13:39:42 zakim, mute yeliz 13:39:42 yeliz should now be muted 13:40:12 s/Darmshtad/Darmstadt/ 13:40:29 Jo: survey says: 9-11 December 13:41:23 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: F2F 9-11 in TBD (maybe London on the basis of Transport costs and ease) 13:41:33 + Iceland will be cold 13:41:53 +1 13:41:57 +1 13:41:58 +1 13:42:04 +1 13:42:12 +1 13:42:48 +1 13:43:12 Ok. 13:43:51 Dan: I will get back to y'all by tomorrow. 13:44:08 s/y'all/y'all suckers/ 13:44:09 ACTION: Dan to get back to group on hosting F2F by tomorrow 13:44:09 Created ACTION-1016 - Get back to group on hosting F2F by tomorrow [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2009-10-06]. 13:44:23 s/suckers, and chaals/ 13:44:55 Topic: BP2 13:45:05 -> http://www.w3.org/mid/393b77970909240813p6287a28epd4605bb169e0bd11@mail.gmail.com Adam's update 13:45:08 Adam: I've sent in a draft with minor mods from last week - hopefully it's good to go. 13:45:30 Jo: Any comments in on that yet? 13:45:40 Adam: Not yet. 13:46:59 Jo: Editorial meeting? 13:47:00 Adam: Let's discuss a date... 13:47:07 q+ to wonder about publishing as LC before editorial meeting 13:47:20 +1 to dom 13:47:32 I think Dom is right 13:49:20 ack d 13:49:20 ack me 13:49:22 dom, you wanted to wonder about publishing as LC before editorial meeting 13:49:54 24 sept 13:49:56 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20090924 13:50:08 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Request publication of 24 Sept draft of MWABP as Last Call 13:50:16 +1 13:50:21 +1 13:50:28 +1 13:50:45 +1 13:50:54 q+ to ask what groups we want reviews from 13:51:01 q+ to ask about deadline for comments 13:51:04 ack d 13:51:04 dom, you wanted to ask what groups we want reviews from and to ask about deadline for comments 13:52:08 Dom: I recommend WebApps, DAP, HTML, SVG, maybe CSS, WAI, I18N 13:53:10 Jo: A month seems right to me. 13:54:08 RESOLUTION: Request publication of 24 Sept draft of MWABP as Last Call 13:54:18 +1 13:54:34 +1 13:55:09 RESOLUTION: Request publication of 24 Sept draft of MWABP as Last Call with a comment period of a month with comments requested from WebApps, DAP, HTML, SVG, maybe CSS, WAI, I18N 13:56:52 "3.5.10 did we have a note r/e accessibility there? 13:57:34 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20090924 13:57:35 Jo: Editorial meeting... 13:57:43 "In most cases Canvas is faster and should be preferred if it meets requirements. However, since Canvas generates a flat bitmap it is not inherently accessible and so should not be used as the sole means of conveying information. " 13:58:09 ACTION: Francois to get MWABP published as Last Call and ensure Chairs announcement is properly sent 13:58:09 Created ACTION-1017 - Get MWABP published as Last Call and ensure Chairs announcement is properly sent [on François Daoust - due 2009-10-06]. 13:58:54 ACTION: Adam to call editorial meeting on Friday 9th Oct to discuss MWABP 13:58:54 Created ACTION-1018 - Call editorial meeting on Friday 9th Oct to discuss MWABP [on Adam Connors - due 2009-10-06]. 14:00:01 Bruce: must duck out for a few minutes; knock on the door 14:00:21 s/Bruce:/Bruce,/ 14:00:39 Topic: Addendum to BP1 14:01:05 Topic: BP 1.5 14:01:27 Jo: some comments from chaals - some to and fro - and it's unresolved... 14:01:57 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0115.html Charles' suggestion 14:01:59 Dom: To clarify, what decision needs to be made? 14:02:02 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0115.html Chaals's proposal ref ACcessKey 14:03:03 -jeffs 14:03:14 +1 on adopting Charles's suggestion and publish 14:03:31 Jo: either we adopt chaal's suggestion, update and publish or ignore and publish. 14:03:53 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Adopt Chaals's resolution, request update from editor and publish 14:03:53 +1 if Chaals brings us some ice from iceland. 14:04:09 +jeffs 14:04:09 0 14:04:17 0 14:04:20 +1 14:04:26 "while there is no standard way ..."?? 14:05:15 "While there is no standard way... , common techniques include..."??? 14:05:44 +1 to chaals comments 14:05:46 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Thanks Chaals for his informed comment but we decline to adjust the text and request publication as is 14:06:09 0 14:06:16 I think we can put the 2 of them together, his point is well-taken 14:06:27 "While there is no standard way... , common techniques include...", for example??? 14:06:38 -1 to the foolish and reckless proposal to ignore the brilliant and insightful yet minimal change proposed by chaals 14:07:02 :) 14:08:17 RESOLUTION: Adopt Chaals's resolution, request update from editor and publish 14:08:17 Topic: The Lovely CT 14:09:12 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/090924 CT latest draft (1v) 14:09:33 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0105.html Charles' point on conformance 14:09:52 Jo: We have a document - 14:09:53 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0106.html Charles's point on URI patterns 14:10:12 Jo: ...on which there are some substantive comments... 14:10:12 Jo: ...chaals points out the conformance statement needs to be mandatory... 14:10:12 Jo: fairly simple change. 14:10:36 Jo: A further suggestion on URI patterns - we have ended up in debate on the list that it would be better to express the URI pattern in a known pattern language. I'm happy to make that change. 14:10:54 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0107.html Charles' message on "interacting with the user" 14:10:59 Jo: Third point was: "what does interacting with the user actually mean"? 14:11:17 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0114.html Jo's unthreaded reply 14:11:32 Jo: What do we need to put in the document, if anything, to clarify our intention and our meaning? 14:11:47 -chaals? 14:11:51 Jo: Chaals? 14:11:51 Chaals: 14:12:26 Jo: Ed can you clarify? 14:13:15 q+ to find chaals' suggestion on http response codes more reasonable 14:13:36 + +1.479.909.aaaa 14:13:44 zakim, aaaa is chaals 14:13:44 +chaals; got it 14:13:55 Jo: You mentioned it would be going too far to specify in detail how the interaction between proxy and user should take place. I agree - we should keep silent. 14:14:00 s/Jo:/EdC/ 14:14:00 s/EdC/EdC:/ 14:14:00 Jo: It's probably worth adding a note. 14:14:22 Tom: Chaals mentions 2 possibilities - one is ??? - other is that proxy generates http responses. If it's the 2nd doesn't that mean that the proxy could be compliant but the user could not see any difference? 14:15:10 Jo: We've looked a long time ago at -300 status responses and such. It's pretty clear that will not work. We mean interacting with the user "in band." We should clarify that it is "in band" with the communication with the web site that user is trying to interact with. 14:16:20 Chaals: I.e. content that is served directly to the user. We may get objections to that. This is a fairly serious step. Given that all providers assume that they have no bugs, they are unlikely to want to interrupt their rendering with a confusing statement... 14:16:25 This is not how it is done. In general there is something like a link with a comment "click here to unmodified content" or so. 14:16:50 Jo: Yes but user does need to be given the option. 14:17:09 user *must* have choice/control 14:17:25 Chaals: There are other mechanisms. This is a substantive issue. When the user has chosen a preference they should have an expectation that this preference will be applied. 14:17:56 Chaals: If you change your preferences (in Opera Mini) through your UI preferences settings, is that an "in band" preference dialog? 14:17:56 Jo: Opera mini is out of scope for this document. 14:19:12 Dom: point 1- in interacting with the user it's clear that we meant "in band" communication. point 2- is this a reasonable requirement and will we get people to follow that requirement. Chaals is saying he might object. 14:19:17 Dom: Can we hear from other vendors? 14:20:25 Chaals: Opera software does not provide the in-band notification that you're asking for and i can't imagine they would... 14:20:32 yyesilad has left #bpwg 14:20:37 Jo: One objection people have often taken to proxies is that operators [of proxies] feel free to insert in-band content... 14:20:53 -yeliz 14:21:00 Chaals: If you're interested in compliance then requirements which have a direct user experience impact, you need to be clear that these are necessary... 14:21:08 +q 14:22:04 Jo: It's not acceptable for there to be pre-configured proxies, where signing a t&c gives carte blanche to the proxy operator. 14:22:20 Jo: It's not in scope for us to design the UI or operation of the product. 14:22:25 q+ 14:22:31 -q 14:22:41 ack t 14:22:41 tomhume, you wanted to find chaals' suggestion on http response codes more reasonable 14:22:47 Jo: What's in scope is that the product should provide a way for the user to tell the proxy [to get out of the way] 14:23:26 Chaals: if there is a proxy that is explicitly non-transparent, adding options on the bottom will not be helpful... 14:23:42 Jo: We're not trying to develop a interface document that referes to user-cognitive models [?] 14:23:56 ack s 14:24:00 q? 14:24:11 I think Chaals you should realize that in many cases, users do not explicitly subscribe to a non-transparent service -- it is imposed by the operator. 14:24:14 q? 14:24:31 Sean: I agree with Dan - maybe we should leave things the way they are. What constitutes in-band or out of band - that seems to be hard to define... 14:24:51 Jo: I agree. 14:25:37 Chaals: 2 issues - does "in band" mean inserted into the rendered page? If so, there must be some minimum explanation of "inform the user and allow the user to choose." 14:26:06 Jo: My preference would be to remain silent. 2nd point - if we are not to remain silent then text needs to say "provide user with a choice at the point of receipt of the content." 14:26:27 agree that choice should be provided at point of content-receipt 14:27:04 Dan, you mean some for of "interstitial" or "splash" option setting page? 14:27:40 Dan: "in band" notification could be an interstitial page, as in a wifi hotspot... 14:28:40 Chaals: it's not nice to have an interstitial. You should be able to set preferences out of band. Would that be a sufficient solution. 14:28:48 Jo: No I don't think it would be sufficient. 14:29:09 q+ 14:29:30 q+ 14:29:50 ack s 14:29:52 ack seanp 14:30:19 Sean: I think chaals's solution seems Ok as long as there's a link to it on the page that was sent down... 14:30:29 -jeffs 14:30:43 Jo: Inserting a link so you can change your preferences seems no less intrusive... 14:30:46 ack e 14:30:54 Chaals: What if you had a preferences setting? 14:32:23 EdC: The google wireless transcoder does exactly what Sean said. 2nd thing - regarding preferences: if you are setting preferences you are setting them for every possible link traversal. The intent of the guidelines is that when something exceptional happens, then at that point the user should be informed (rather than at every traversal). 14:33:00 Chaals: No because we set per-site preferences anyway. 14:33:28 example in section 4.1.5.3 "but must, on receipt of an indication from a Web site that it offers alternative representations (see H.1.4.2 Indication of Intended Presentation Media Type of Representation), inform the user of that and allow them to select an alternative representation." 14:33:45 This is not something that can be done out of band via preference settings. 14:33:49 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: LEave text as is in respect of interacting the user 14:34:01 EdC: It'd doesn't mean that out-of-band preferences (e.gg. per site) should not be used but that it is not sufficient. 14:34:03 s/the user/with the user/ 14:34:05 +1 14:34:08 +1 14:34:22 +1 14:34:26 chaals has joined #bpwg 14:34:31 +1 14:34:33 [chaals says +1 on the phone] 14:34:58 +1 14:35:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:35:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-minutes.html chaals 14:35:38 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0124.html Sean's Comments 14:36:46 RESOLUTION: Leave text as is in respect of interacting the user [in CT] 14:37:14 +??P31 14:37:18 -chaals 14:37:31 zakim, ??P31 is really me 14:37:31 +chaals; got it 14:37:50 -tomhume 14:38:17 Jo: In reference to validation to an appropriate published grammar. Are you asking for that clause to be changed? 14:38:26 I believe we went through this, downgraded must to should validate (catering for if there is no grammar f.ex.), keeping only well-formed for XML. 14:38:33 Sean: Yes. Seems unrealistic. 14:38:36 s/on the phone]/on the phone, but noting that this leaves the possibility for people to claim conformance doing things we simply don't expect - on the other hand that is not the worst things possible]/ 14:38:40 Sean: I don't think any of them do that today. 14:39:21 See my comment above. 14:39:22 [I think Sean's point is reasonable indeed] 14:39:23 Sean: HTML typically doesn't validate and sometimes to get it work the way you want it can't validate... 14:39:44 Jo: Any comments? 14:39:45 I believe we went through this, downgraded must to should validate (catering for if there is no grammar f.ex.), keeping only well-formed for XML. 14:40:02 "The altered content should validate according to an appropriate published formal grammar and if XML must be well-formed;" 14:40:35 -chaals 14:40:43 This means no published or no formal grammar => no validation. Otherwise should, but if you have reasons to tweak to make it work... 14:41:42 Jo: I think this provides plenty of room in the conformance statement - scope for you to conform but not to validate in certain cases. 14:41:50 Yes. Only XML has a formal definition and separation of validation and well-formed (the latter being lexically/syntactically correct). 14:42:00 Sean: OK that's fine. I just wanted to make sure that's what we're saying. 14:42:03 +chaals 14:42:05 Jo: Let's leave it as that. 14:42:21 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: let's roll 14:42:29 Who takes up the editorial comments of SeanP? 14:42:44 Jo: any other comments? 14:43:45 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Modulo the two editorial adjustments inspired by Chaals, (not including user interaction) and Sean's rightfully critical editorial comments, the group requests publication of the draft 1v as Last Call 14:43:54 Do not forget the ICS... 14:44:08 Include it in the resolution... 14:44:27 ScribeNick: dom 14:44:42 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Modulo the two editorial adjustments inspired by Chaals, (not including user interaction) and Sean's rightfully critical editorial comments, the group requests publication of the draft 1v (together wit the corresponding ICS) as Last Call 14:44:47 +1 14:44:47 +1 14:45:00 +1 14:45:03 +1 14:45:08 0 14:45:30 [DKA +1 on the phone] 14:46:52 previous list of people asked for comments: TAG, HTML WG, XHTML2 WG, WebApps WG, HCG , OMA (at least) 14:47:11 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Modulo the two editorial adjustments from Chaals, (not including user interaction) and Sean's editorial comments, the group requests publication of the draft 1v (together wit the corresponding ICS) as Last Call with 4 weeks and request comments from same list as last time as well as previous LC commenters 14:47:20 +1 14:47:22 +1 14:47:25 +1 14:47:29 +1 14:47:36 concur 14:47:41 RESOLUTION: Modulo the two editorial adjustments from Chaals, (not including user interaction) and Sean's editorial comments, the group requests publication of the draft 1v (together wit the corresponding ICS) as Last Call with 4 weeks and request comments from same list as last time as well as previous LC commenters 14:48:01 Jo: 1 month period, same list of groups as before, plus commenters on previous draft 14:48:16 ACTION: Francois to get CT published as Last Call and ensure chairs announcement 14:48:16 Created ACTION-1019 - Get CT published as Last Call and ensure chairs announcement [on François Daoust - due 2009-10-06]. 14:48:54 -adam 14:48:55 -DKA 14:48:55 -Dom 14:48:57 -EdC 14:48:58 hugs 14:48:58 bye 14:48:59 -jo 14:49:00 -chaals 14:49:02 -SeanP 14:49:08 brucel has left #bpwg 14:49:10 -manrique? 14:49:14 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:49:14 On the phone I see brucel 14:49:16 -brucel 14:49:17 MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has ended 14:49:18 Attendees were tomhume, jo, jeffs, DKA, brucel, Dom, adam, SeanP, EdC, chaals?, manrique?, yeliz, +1.479.909.aaaa, chaals 14:49:20 RRSagent, draft minutes 14:49:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-minutes.html dom 14:50:49 i/ Date:/ScribeNick: DKA/ 14:50:53 RRSagent, draft minutes 14:50:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-minutes.html dom 15:27:44 Zakim, bye 15:27:44 Zakim has left #bpwg 15:27:47 RRSAgent, bye 15:27:47 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-actions.rdf : 15:27:47 ACTION: Dan to get back to group on hosting F2F by tomorrow [1] 15:27:47 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-irc#T13-44-09 15:27:47 ACTION: Francois to get MWABP published as Last Call and ensure Chairs announcement is properly sent [2] 15:27:47 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-irc#T13-58-09 15:27:47 ACTION: Adam to call editorial meeting on Friday 9th Oct to discuss MWABP [3] 15:27:47 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-irc#T13-58-54 15:27:47 ACTION: Francois to get CT published as Last Call and ensure chairs announcement [4] 15:27:47 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/29-bpwg-irc#T14-48-16 15:27:49 dom has left #bpwg