17:09:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
17:09:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc
17:09:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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17:09:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
17:09:21 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:09:22 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
17:09:22 <trackbot> Date: 26 September 2009
17:09:40 <heycam> Zakim, remind me in 8 hours to raid the fridge
17:09:40 <Zakim> ok, heycam
17:10:20 <heycam> Meeting: Mountain View F2F 2009 Day 1
17:10:27 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
17:10:43 <anthony_with_mous> Scribe: Anthony
17:10:53 <anthony_with_mous> ScribeNick: anthony_with_moustache
17:11:00 <anthony_with_mous> Topic: XSL Report
17:11:24 <anthony_with_mous> CL: I went to the XSL F2F
17:11:29 <anthony_with_mous> ... was there for 2 days of the meeting
17:11:34 <anthony_with_mous> ... main topic of discussion was shapes
17:11:50 <anthony_with_mous> ... they want to have arbitrary shapes
17:11:56 <anthony_with_mous> ... or set of shapes
17:12:00 <anthony_with_mous> ... to any block
17:12:08 <anthony_with_mous> ... they have page masters then blocks
17:12:15 <anthony_with_mous> ... and the idea is to add shapes to the blocks
17:12:26 <anthony_with_mous> ... and idea is the text would fit in the shape
17:12:29 <anthony_with_mous> ... then flow to the next shape
17:12:36 <anthony_with_mous> but text they mean anything
17:12:50 <anthony_with_mous> s/but/... by/
17:13:03 <anthony_with_mous> ... tables, lists
17:13:11 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:13:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-minutes.html heycam
17:13:19 <anthony_with_mous> ... then there are two add ons that make it a bit complicated
17:13:42 <anthony_with_mous> ... tri-tables
17:14:08 <anthony_with_mous> ... that allow adjustments by varying different properties
17:14:13 <heycam> ScribeNick: anthony_with_mous
17:14:23 <anthony_with_mous> ... and therefore the text fits with in the shape
17:14:27 <anthony_with_mous> ... and then there's shapes that grow
17:14:52 <anthony_with_mous> ... as the text gets bigger the shape gets bigger in the middle
17:15:06 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:15:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-minutes.html heycam
17:15:10 <anthony_with_mous> DS: It seems to me there's also another case that people want
17:15:21 <anthony_with_mous> ... the first is what you said - copy fitting
17:15:31 <anthony_with_mous> ... it's pretty common that people want to do copy fitting
17:15:42 <anthony_with_mous> ... where they want the text to grow to fit the size of the shape
17:16:17 <anthony_with_mous> ... if you want to have SVG boarders on a CSS block
17:16:25 <anthony_with_mous> ... we don't have any way in SVG saying make this part change
17:16:45 <anthony_with_mous> ... we don't have any way of stating the intentionality of the shape
17:16:55 <anthony_with_mous> AG: Is that still in scope with SVG?
17:17:37 <anthony_with_mous> DS: We could have essentially the pie shape, bars, but not by defining them as something with certain behaviours
17:17:50 <anthony_with_mous> ... but more so like the constraint stuff
17:18:05 <anthony_with_mous> ... if we have parts of the shape to grow to meet certain constraints
17:18:23 <ChrisL> notes from the text flowing into shape discussions  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Sep/0056.html
17:18:28 <anthony_with_mous> ... SVG wouldn't define a pie chart, they'd define things would grow
17:18:44 <anthony_with_mous> CL: I dropped a link in
17:18:52 <anthony_with_mous> ... and if you scroll down to the bottom
17:18:55 <anthony_with_mous> ... you'll see SMIL
17:19:07 <anthony_with_mous> ... Liam is wondering if you can use SMIL in XSL
17:19:20 <anthony_with_mous> ... I said not really
17:19:26 <anthony_with_mous> ... and suggested a subset of SMIL
17:19:49 <anthony_with_mous> ... the path animation to be exact
17:20:03 <anthony_with_mous> CM: What does path animation represent?
17:20:26 <anthony_with_mous> CL: The main difference here is you're not getting a change over time
17:20:48 <anthony_with_mous> ... it represents the shape you want
17:21:25 <anthony_with_mous> CM: The paper you're talking about growing shape to fit text
17:21:46 <ChrisL> hit the 'pdf' link from http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1166160.1166165
17:22:24 <anthony_with_mous> CL: In an XSL file the want to have some SVG
17:22:37 <anthony_with_mous> ... have some SVG because you want to draw it or use bits of it but don't want to draw
17:22:48 <anthony_with_mous> ... Liam was saying they have <defs> element
17:23:10 <jwatt> s/they have/SVG has/
17:24:57 <anthony_with_mous> CL: They'd like to point to gradients
17:25:04 <anthony_with_mous> ... and bits of SVG that's useful
17:25:19 <anthony_with_mous> ... they specifically mentioned doing stuff in Inkscape and dropping it in
17:25:34 <anthony_with_mous> ... I gave them an update on the fonts work
17:25:46 <anthony_with_mous> ... there's a public list www-font
17:25:56 <anthony_with_mous> ... and there's a lot of discussion about what do with web fonts
17:26:18 <anthony_with_mous> ... CSS and SVG give you the ability to the open type fonts
17:26:34 <anthony_with_mous> ... which is the same font format as the for sale fonts are sold as
17:27:07 <anthony_with_mous> ... in response to that there were two formats proposed
17:27:10 <anthony_with_mous> ... EOT format
17:27:19 <anthony_with_mous> ... form Microsoft
17:27:37 <anthony_with_mous> ... they have an embedded uri RootString
17:27:44 <anthony_with_mous> ... which people didn't like
17:27:51 <shepazu> s /EOT/EOT-lite
17:28:09 <shepazu> s/form/from
17:28:17 <anthony_with_mous> ... the next format was MTX from Agfa
17:29:35 <anthony_with_mous> ... it was objected on the grounds was compression libraries can have security problems
17:30:35 <anthony_with_mous> ... so there was case study where gcip was shown to be almost as good as MTX particularly with Unicode
17:30:52 <anthony_with_mous> ... as a result there was a proposal for a new font format
17:30:55 <anthony_with_mous> ... a web font format
17:31:03 <anthony_with_mous> ... re-encoding of open type fonts
17:31:21 <anthony_with_mous> ... it was proposed Jonathon Kew
17:31:40 <anthony_with_mous> ... it has a table of sizes and then individual Open Type table
17:31:47 <anthony_with_mous> ... that can be reference
17:31:59 <anthony_with_mous> ... if it's compressed it will say the size when uncompressed
17:32:02 <heycam> http://mcc.id.au/temp/p3-hurst.pdf -- that's nathan's paper
17:32:30 <anthony_with_mous> ... there's a specification available and an implementation
17:33:13 <anthony_with_mous> ... that converts both ways to and from open type
17:33:16 <jwatt> http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html - that's Jonathan Kew's WOFF spec
17:33:28 <anthony_with_mous> DS: He's form SIL and he's interested in the international case
17:33:45 <anthony_with_mous> ... since he has the individual tables zipped
17:34:11 <anthony_with_mous> ... for someone in a place with limited bandwidth it's better then for them
17:34:27 <anthony_with_mous> ED: But there's still CPU and memory needed to decompress everything
17:34:55 <anthony_with_mous> ... so there may not be any benefit
17:35:18 <anthony_with_mous> CL: You can download the list tables initially to see which tables are needed
17:35:40 <anthony_with_mous> ED: There may not be a big benefit compared to having the whole thing zipped
17:35:52 <anthony_with_mous> CL: That format was originally called web OTF
17:36:03 <anthony_with_mous> ... there were questions by W3C could use the name
17:36:11 <anthony_with_mous> ... the 3rd draft is called WOFF
17:36:24 <anthony_with_mous> ... Web Open Font Format
17:37:14 <ed> s/ whole thing zipped/ whole thing zipped due to network latency/
17:39:53 <shepazu> s/EOT-lite/EOT
17:41:12 <anthony_with_mous> CL: There are for formats for doing downloadable fonts
17:41:25 <anthony_with_mous> ... SVG, WOFF, EOT, EOT-lite
17:41:29 <anthony_with_mous> DS: Five
17:41:34 <anthony_with_mous> ... OpenType
17:42:02 <anthony_with_mous> JW: So when you say OpenType you are including TrueType as well?
17:42:09 <anthony_with_mous> CL: Yes OpenType is a super set
17:43:04 <anthony_with_mous> ... my charter proposal will for the formats that are not standardised
17:44:11 <anthony_with_mous> ... The thing that people liked was to conform to the spec people would have to implement two of the formats
17:44:33 <anthony_with_mous> ... and the bit that I'm going to put in is you have to support either the CSS or an XML format
17:44:54 <anthony_with_mous> ... the reason that's interesting and I'm calling it the XML syntax and not SVG is because XSL want to use it
17:45:00 <anthony_with_mous> ... in there own name space
17:45:12 <anthony_with_mous> ... they plan to adopt that just as is
17:45:38 <anthony_with_mous> DS: Another reason to make the group is it gets commitment form the members to start using the format
17:46:25 <anthony_with_mous> CL: There were some font foundries that were saying we can have different licenses for the different formats 
17:46:30 <anthony_with_mous> ... so they're happy
17:46:50 <anthony_with_mous> ... one thing with the SVG fonts is they can't do hinting and the internationalisation isn't there
17:47:12 <anthony_with_mous> ... one thing we could say for SVG 2.0 is we could say you'd have to support WOFF
17:47:32 <anthony_with_mous> CM: Just wondering if you can stick SVG inside something like OpenType
17:47:46 <anthony_with_mous> ... the glyph shapes in OpenType are like cubic beziers?
18:05:34 <anthony_with_mous> CL: There are constraints in OpenType fonts
18:05:52 <heycam> Scribe: Cameron
18:05:55 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
18:06:12 <heycam> CL: the xsl group is producing a thing called "design notes"
18:06:19 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/Group/2009/03/FPWD-xsl-fo-20.html
18:06:42 <heycam> ... they had a piece about colour that was drawn from svg print
18:06:48 <heycam> ... and the only bit it really had was the device specific colour stuff
18:07:20 <shepazu> http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-spec-latest.html
18:07:27 <heycam> ... they were getting ready to publish this, and almost about to publish
18:07:33 <heycam> ... i offered to rewrite the colour section
18:07:46 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xsl-fo-sg/2009Sep/0033.html
18:08:11 <heycam> ... i explained the differences between svg colour and svg print, the current state of things, and proposed wording which they agreed to
18:08:26 <heycam> ... so it's in the spec now
18:08:53 <heycam> ... i gave them some wording, assuming you adopt all features from svg color, which you would probably select from
18:09:15 <heycam> ... and i suggested some syntax that seemed to fit with their style
18:09:19 <heycam> ... and they accepted the proposal as is
18:09:33 <heycam> AG: so you always have to place an rgb falback
18:09:36 <heycam> CL: yes, srgb fallback
18:09:47 <heycam> ... some others wanted cmyk fallback, but we ended up with just srgb fallback
18:10:14 <heycam> CM: why is the "ICC" in capitals there?
18:10:25 <heycam> ... are xsl properties case sensitive?
18:10:27 <heycam> CL: yes they are
18:10:40 <heycam> ... i don't mind if they change that
18:13:37 <heycam> ... we got one piece of feedback on this
18:14:11 <heycam> ... in the design notes it says "Four new functions are added to support device-dependent color"
18:15:15 <heycam> ... the HP person wanted "device n channel" instead of "device multi channel"
18:16:09 <heycam> ... the other change he wanted was a uri or reference to a block of data, since that's the way they do it, of describing the colors in the printer
18:17:02 <heycam> ... we were vaguely aware that's what they did, but we didn't have concrete information
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19:23:51 <fat_tony> Scribe: Anthony
19:24:02 <fat_tony> ScribeNick: fat_tony
19:25:19 <fat_tony> Topic: SVG Fonts
19:25:35 <fat_tony> CM: Robert wonders what the use cases for SVG Fonts are
19:25:40 <fat_tony> CL: I sent a reply
19:25:45 <fat_tony> ... with a bunch of use cases
19:25:59 <fat_tony> ... and he replied to say that was useful
19:26:52 <fat_tony> CM: What I'd like to know is
19:27:10 <fat_tony> ... what features of SVG Fonts can you not with regular OpenType fonts are used
19:27:23 <fat_tony> ... and which of them are basically an abuse of SVG Fonts to get some nifty behaviour
19:27:43 <fat_tony> CL: The only abuse that I'm aware of is wishing SVG had a Y-Up coordinate system
19:28:08 <fat_tony> ED: I've seen people using fancy stroking for effects
19:28:40 <ed> ...using glyphs in svg fonts
19:28:52 <fat_tony> DS: Which ones are used?
19:29:00 <fat_tony> CM: Yes and which ones are not
19:29:06 <fat_tony> DS: Hard to know at this point
19:29:12 <fat_tony> ... because ASV supported them
19:29:16 <fat_tony> ... and it's older content
19:29:54 <fat_tony> ... I'd like to be able to use SVG Fonts for doing complex shapes for illuminated fonts
19:30:01 <fat_tony> CL: You can do RT stuff
19:30:11 <fat_tony> ... multi-coloured stuff
19:30:23 <fat_tony> ... anything you can draw you can make it into a glyph
19:30:29 <shepazu> http://www.alifetimeofcolor.com/study/images/illum_manuscript_l.jpg
19:30:52 <fat_tony> ... if you give people a way to draw pictures and wrap it as text
19:30:59 <shepazu> http://www.graphic-design.com/Type/caps/CapB.jpg
19:31:15 <fat_tony> ... people will eventually put pictures as text
19:31:50 <fat_tony> DS: [talks about second link]
19:32:15 <fat_tony> CM: What happens when you fill SVG Font text?
19:32:27 <fat_tony> CL: We added something specific for just the 'd' attribute
19:32:39 <fat_tony> DS: You mean for Tiny?
19:32:41 <fat_tony> CL: Yes
19:35:53 <fat_tony> ED: Say you wanted to fill what was specified in the 'd' attribute
19:35:59 <fat_tony> ... if you wanted to fill the path with something with full fonts you wouldn't be able to do that
19:36:29 <fat_tony> CL: Suppose you do a font like Jurassic Park your path on the outer thing with red bits
19:36:35 <fat_tony> ... and do that for loads of test
19:36:40 <fat_tony> s/test/text/
19:37:15 <fat_tony> ... for each occurrence of the character you have a hidden tree
19:37:25 <fat_tony> ... multiple copies of this arbitrary content
19:37:48 <fat_tony> ED: I'd suggest it inherits from document tree
19:37:54 <fat_tony> CL: So you mean like a current colour?
19:37:57 <fat_tony> ED: Similar
19:38:08 <fat_tony> ... the question is what properties you want there
19:38:10 <fat_tony> ... and applies
19:38:15 <fat_tony> CL: Colour
19:38:19 <fat_tony> ED: Fill, stroke
19:38:31 <fat_tony> ... that would be possible and would make it much simpler
19:39:40 <ChrisL> They tend to be used for short, decorative, one-off text strings. Kerning, glyph shapes may be modified for the one pieve of artwork.
19:39:40 <ChrisL> They can be used for less common languages.
19:39:40 <ChrisL> The glyphs don't have the same constraints that TT/OT glyphs have, in terms of placement of control points, winding rule, avoidance of overlap and self-intersection. They can mix cubics, quadratics, and straight line segments as needed. 
19:39:40 <ChrisL> In other words, if you can draw it, you can make it a glyph. And the SVG engine can already render it because it already knows about paths, fill, stroke, opacity etc.
19:39:43 <ChrisL> Of course, the temptation is to just draw something which looks, visually, like text. SVG gives the option to make it real, searchable, accessible and updatable text, for very little more effort.
19:40:19 <fat_tony> ED: I guess it would be nice to style the colours in the text based on where they are used
19:40:48 <ChrisL> from dev-tech-svg@lists.mozilla.org
19:41:33 <fat_tony> CM: Some body to suggested to solve that use case
19:41:45 <fat_tony> ... you could stick an attribute on graphical content?
19:41:49 <fat_tony> CL: Why would do that?
19:41:55 <fat_tony> JW: I have a reason for not doing that
19:41:59 <fat_tony> ... is you can't select it
19:42:11 <fat_tony> ... what if I want to select one word out of three word heading?
19:42:20 <fat_tony> DS: You could essentially do it as a ligature
19:42:33 <fat_tony> JW: It makes it different to the rest of the text behaves
19:42:55 <fat_tony> CM: You could break it down into logical blocks, words, sections, letter
19:43:19 <fat_tony> JW: You can do it as separate words or text
19:43:26 <fat_tony> ... then you're saying this graphic is this word
19:43:34 <fat_tony> ... then how do you join them together
19:43:48 <fat_tony> ... so when you search for it, it is found
19:44:34 <fat_tony> DS: Logical and visual order can be abused even with regular text
19:44:54 <fat_tony> CL: I was remembering that Vincent Hardy asked what's the use case for all this SVG stuff
19:45:06 <fat_tony> ... why not use a single path
19:45:19 <fat_tony> ... he said unless we do it that way SVG will not be used
19:45:37 <fat_tony> ... his argument was persuasive 
19:45:45 <fat_tony> ... then the guy from Kodak
19:46:13 <fat_tony> ... said we've got a use case that can only done in SVG and not in True Type
19:47:04 <fat_tony> ... after a while Vincent Hardy did see the use cases and started making content
19:49:47 <fat_tony> DS: [Draws diagram on board]
19:49:55 <fat_tony> ... you can't do that as an SVG font
19:50:01 <fat_tony> ED: Yes you can
19:50:11 <fat_tony> DS: This is something that is a one off thing
19:50:22 <fat_tony> ... and you don't want to spend the time and energy adjusting everything
19:50:25 <fat_tony> ... to get it readable
19:50:37 <fat_tony> CL: It would be work
19:50:39 <fat_tony> ... I agree
19:50:42 <fat_tony> ... but it could be done
19:52:10 <fat_tony> DS: My point is this is something you can not do with OpenType
19:52:34 <fat_tony> ... how is this different form a ligature
19:59:50 <anthony> JW: ROC is asking for give me the use cases
20:00:23 <fat_tony> CL: He's collecting the use cases
20:00:36 <fat_tony> ... and Alex D has chipped in with support
20:01:28 <fat_tony> JW: It's obvious for the use cases that the majority of them are catered for by WOFF
20:01:44 <fat_tony> ... ROC just wants to know have we pretty much covered all the cases that people want to handle
20:02:09 <fat_tony> ... and whether it should be put as a priority
20:03:04 <fat_tony> ... That's what I'd like to hear is the use cases
20:03:13 <fat_tony> ... you have all this power to make anything a glyph
20:03:43 <ChrisL> typography teaching with serifs, verticals
20:03:43 <fat_tony> ... but I want to see why people want to do things that can't be do in WOFF or OpenType
20:04:02 <ChrisL> glyphs with icicles in blue-and-white, with font whatever color is wanted
20:04:11 <ChrisL> nimated drawing fonts for chinese
20:04:22 <fat_tony> DS: I want to do a header and it has blue with icicles
20:04:27 <ChrisL> scripted distressed fonts
20:04:31 <fat_tony> JW: I think we should try and collect a page
20:04:35 <fat_tony> ... with graphical examples
20:04:39 <ChrisL> illuminated glyphs
20:05:05 <ChrisL> jurassic park font with red inlay 
20:05:58 <fat_tony> DS: People when doing layouts with glyphs
20:06:18 <fat_tony> ... [draws a diagram with Oprah W]
20:09:02 <fat_tony> JW: You'd want examples that don't raise too many examples
20:09:11 <fat_tony> ... that drawing raises too many questions
20:13:41 <heycam> Scribe: Jonathan
20:13:44 <heycam> ScribeNick: jwatt
20:13:58 <jwatt> DS: we should highlight what SVG fonts are good for
20:14:18 <jwatt> s/too many exmples/too many distracting questions/
20:16:49 <fat_tony> Scribe: Anthony
20:16:56 <fat_tony> ScribeNick: fat_tony
20:17:51 <ChrisL> Erik van Blokland
20:18:08 <ChrisL> http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-2009-09-16.html
20:18:20 <ChrisL> http://www.robofab.com/
20:18:50 <ed> [that is in relation to SVG Fonts having a DOM and being editable that way clientside]
20:19:04 <ChrisL> http://www.fontlab.com/python/
20:20:02 <ChrisL> robofog http://typophile.com/node/13759?
20:24:58 <fat_tony> CM: So out of this we need use case on a Wiki pages
20:25:02 <fat_tony> ... so who is going to do this?
20:25:32 <fat_tony> JW: Whoever has examples or ideas of what people want to do
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20:26:39 <fat_tony> ... so you could animate the line order of Asian characters
20:27:00 <fat_tony> s/line order/stroke order/
20:27:17 <fat_tony> ... for a tutorial
20:27:39 <fat_tony> AG: Someone will have to go through the minutes and put examples up on the wiki
20:28:31 <jwatt> put use case ideas here: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases ?
20:29:41 <fat_tony> JW: Is that URL ok?
20:30:08 <fat_tony> ... problem is the interest group can't edit that
20:30:38 <fat_tony> AG: so if we want input from them that's no good
20:31:56 <jwatt> ok, so http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/SVG_Font_Use_Cases then?
20:32:45 <jwatt> the IG wiki is open to the public to make accounts, so anyone could add their ideas
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22:31:55 <fat_tony> AG: I think we should get the SVG IG to give us use cases
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22:39:10 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
22:39:10 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc#T22-39-10
22:39:21 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
22:39:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
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22:42:26 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0073.html
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22:49:06 <ChrisL> topic: Ambiguity in glyph element definition
22:49:43 <fat_tony> DS: What if you have a completely different thing like script
22:49:51 <fat_tony> CM: That's the example that Erik gave
22:50:11 <fat_tony> CL: In particular the way the script being handled is weird
22:50:15 <fat_tony> DS: What about CSS?
22:50:24 <fat_tony> CL: It has parsing rules that allows you to skip over it
22:52:22 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
22:52:22 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc#T22-52-22
22:56:08 <fat_tony> CL: [reads section of spec out]
22:56:53 <fat_tony> DS: That's fine looks good to me
22:57:01 <fat_tony> ED: I'm concerned that's going to break things in the future
22:57:56 <fat_tony> ... because it looks like we are planning to change SVG Fonts anyway
22:58:06 <fat_tony> ... we also discussed how things inherit into it
22:58:24 <fat_tony> ... I guess we haven't decided on how it is going to work
22:58:43 <fat_tony> DS: You did talk about what sorts of changes you want to make?
22:59:19 <fat_tony> JW: For restricting content what would we restrict?
22:59:25 <fat_tony> CL: Unless we restrict it to zero
22:59:41 <fat_tony> ... the errata I just stuck in doesn't change anything
22:59:50 <fat_tony> DS: Chris's change just clarifies the spec
22:59:54 <fat_tony> ... it's not changing anything
23:00:00 <fat_tony> ... if we want to change anything in 2.0
23:00:03 <fat_tony> ... then that's fine
23:01:06 <fat_tony> ED: Just sounds weird to me
23:01:14 <fat_tony> ... but if that's the way it's suppose to work
23:01:24 <fat_tony> ... it's not going to change what we do
23:02:05 <fat_tony> CL: I don't see how it's different from a bunch of <use> elements
23:02:26 <fat_tony> ... both of them say they create anonymous shadow trees
23:04:33 <fat_tony> ED: The wording for the way it behaves like a cloning thing is not good
23:04:36 <fat_tony> ... I agree with what ROC says
23:06:04 <fat_tony> JW: Does batik render anything other than the 'd' attribute
23:06:06 <fat_tony> CM: Yes
23:06:13 <fat_tony> JW: Inheritance thing?
23:06:18 <fat_tony> CM: Not sure
23:07:12 <fat_tony> JW: Say I have two <tspans> in a text thing that's using a font
23:07:24 <fat_tony> ... those two <tspans> might have different styling
23:07:29 <fat_tony> ... and the same glyph
23:07:39 <fat_tony> ... if you do shadow trees then you need to do different styling
23:12:02 <fat_tony> ED: I was thinking about a font that could be made on both old and new user agents
23:12:25 <fat_tony> ... in some situations there might be a case where you want to provide a completely different glyph
23:12:34 <fat_tony> ... I can think of other ways of doing it
23:13:07 <jwatt> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Fonts
23:14:04 <fat_tony> ED: So these are the properties that would inherit by default?
23:14:17 <fat_tony> JW: Unless you tried to stop them
23:14:40 <fat_tony> CM: So is this the list of all inherited properties minus the font ones?
23:14:52 <fat_tony> JW: I wasn't trying to create a complete list though
23:14:55 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_Fonts_Inheritance
23:16:03 <fat_tony> ... the font element should be self contained
23:16:17 <fat_tony> ... if I copy and paste a font that has a gradient
23:16:30 <fat_tony> ... reference, then it will break
23:16:40 <fat_tony> CL: But how is that different from a group
23:16:52 <fat_tony> JW: I think of fonts as more self contained things
23:17:29 <ChrisL> They can be coded like that. Its authoring advice
23:17:38 <fat_tony> DS: Unless there is a optimisation advantage
23:17:49 <fat_tony> JW: It would be more overhead to restrict it
23:22:58 <fat_tony> ED: So I'm not objecting to the change anymore
23:28:10 <fat_tony> CL: I propose removing within an SVG document fragment part
23:30:01 <ed> xlink:href for tref says:
23:30:02 <ed> A URI reference to an element/fragment within an SVG document fragment whose character data content shall be used as character data for this 'tref' element.
23:30:31 <ed> change to:
23:30:32 <ed> A URI reference to an element whose character data content shall be used as character data for this 'tref' element.
23:32:28 <fat_tony> RESOLUTION: We agree to remove the restriction of tref pointing to only an SVG document fragment
23:41:18 <fat_tony> ED: So I put fill and stroke-width with on a glyph and it didn't affect the glyph
23:41:34 <fat_tony> ... I guess it depends what type of element the glyph is
23:41:58 <fat_tony> CM: I don't think it's good to treat it differently
23:42:49 <ed> if fill and stroke-width is put on a <text> element then it does affect the rendered text
23:43:09 <ed>  so the same for svg fonts as for any other type of font
23:43:38 <fat_tony> CM: But does it do it in the coordinate system of the glyph?
23:43:40 <fat_tony> ED: I don't think so
23:51:53 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
23:51:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/09/26-svg-irc#T23-51-53