See also: IRC log
<mischat> what is the conference name "swxg" ?
<mischat> zakim isn't picking up the phone numbers
<mischat> dialing in
trackbot, start telcon
<trackbot> Date: 23 September 2009
<rreck> i dont see conference entry messages
<AlexPassant> have you just joined as well hhalpin ?
<hhalpin> scribe: Karl Dubost
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 16th September 2009 (only text IRC notes!) as a true record.
<hhalpin> APPROVED: SWXG WG Weekly -- 16th September 2009 as a true record.
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] hhalpin needs to convert previous minutes into HTML via some scripting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<hhalpin> Meet again next Sept 30th.
hhalpin: we should get Saint-Andre for XMPP
<hhalpin> Include the open day work..
DKA: We are on a track …
... 200 people for the venue
... It will be like a barcamp event
... we will have opportunity to learn about social networking
... and @@blabla
... christine proposed an agenda
DKA: we need to add some
... w3c wishes we are using channels of w3c for communicating?
<cperey> so the name of the wiki page needs to be modified!
bblfish: there will be cakes
<DKA> You had me at "cakes."
bblfish: there will be a
... (kind of restaurant)
<cperey> so we need a registration system. Who has one of those?
<hhalpin> for registration I'd use eventbrite.com
bblfish: We need to have a place where people can sign-up
<hhalpin> seems to work well.
<cperey> exactly, we need a web page
bblfish: barcamp alike
<cperey> what about speaker invites?
<cperey> can we brainstorm some speaker names?
<cperey> on wiki or on the call?
<bblfish> not choppy here
<cperey> can you please propose a day/time?
<cperey> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Planning_for_TPAC_Open_Day <--at the bottom of the page is a place for invites
<hhalpin> "before the call"
DKA: We could meet before the call next week
bblfish: If people could attend identity workshop
<DKA> Suggest a tag line for the event "Advancing the Cause of the Social Web."
<bblfish> I should be there
bblfish: Most of the good speakers will be at the identity workshop.
<mischat> barcamp uses it too
<PhilA2> I've used Eventbrite - seems good
bblfish: I will be there
... should we start something for the open social web day
... It would be good if people could attend.
<hhalpin> Thursday on TPAC
bblfish: We will have two days at the TPAC but it's kind possible to attend both
<hhalpin> Open Developer Day
bblfish: On TPAC, there will be also the Open Developer Day.
<hhalpin> We are also looking for one or two speakers to talk about Social Web to the people at the developer day.
bblfish: We are also looking for
one or two speakers to speak about Social web things at the
Open Developer Day.
... Please register asap
hhalpin: there is a suggestion to change the telcon time
<hhalpin> 6:00 AM in California
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: it is a bit early on the west coast
<hhalpin> If we kept the same day but moved the call back 2 hours.
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: How many people would be ok if we keep the same day
<tinkster> 2 hours would be fine for me.
<cperey> two hours
but two hours.
<DKA> +1 I would be fine.
-1 (work reasons)
<Adam> what about just an hour later?
<tinkster> bear in mind that daylight savings is coming up soon.
<cperey> yes, that messes things up
karl: I will not be able to move my time because of my work in a Web agency
<hhalpin> Make it 2 hours LATER
karl: that's fine though. change the time
<hhalpin> So 15:00UTC
<hhalpin> Karl - can you do 2 hours later?
RESOLUTION: Telconf is moved at 15:00 UTC
<danbri> (was there a resolution already?)
<hhalpin> Let's not change it quite yet
<hhalpin> Let me run this by some of the people in San Fran
:) resolution might be changed ;)
<hhalpin> They actually trying to participate.
<cperey> it would be slightly easier to change it after we are all aligned
<cperey> after change of daylight savings
<melvster> california has daylight saving too, normally its 1-2 weeks within the european change
Dan: it's not sure we will get more participants by moving the time
<PhilA2> I have tried changing times of calls to suit different people before now - and in that case the people we changed to accommodate - didn't ever show up :-(
<bblfish> I agree, 8 is limit 9am would be something
hhalpin: somepeople asked
... so we could try
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to get back to people on possible telecon time to change to 15:00 UTC. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Get back to people on possible telecon time to change to 15:00 UTC. [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-09-30].
hhalpin: just asking for now
<bblfish> how does daylight saving time change things
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] cperey to start a wiki page about the open day session at TPAC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] DKA to double-check on TPAC, make sure SWXG is booked. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DKA to summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread knowledge of these efforts among W3C members. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mischa to describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
<mischat> hhalpin: am aware of my action, will get on it
<hhalpin> We definitely should wait till we are on the spread.
cperey: we could wait until
everyone is on the same timezone
... for avoiding the mess of time change
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] Melvster to write up David Raggett's guest talk on context, delegated privacy providers, and so on. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<tinkster> e.g. Sydney is UTC+10, but in practice is either 9 hours or 11 hours ahead of London because of non-overlapping daylight savings.
cperey: what should we do for upcoming guest speakers?
<hhalpin> Nov or October?
<danbri> so long as they're talkign about general issues, trends etc., and their approach in broad brush, seems great
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
cperey: Is what they do is relevant to social networks?
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] danbri and karl to contact Evan of identi.ca over OpenMicroblogging and W3C. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
cperey: they do a lot of things
<danbri> rather than on detail of the patented works, which i think we wouldn't want to hear about
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
cperey: they are in California,
<mischat> i would like to try and invite someone from the BBC to talk about how they used twitter to report news on this last iranian elections, post having all of their reporter being chucked out
cperey: so they will be happy if we change the time.
<hhalpin> ACTION: cperey to book global lockbox as an invited speaker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-90 - Book global lockbox as an invited speaker [on Christine Perey - due 2009-09-30].
<mischat> i will start mailing people and i will mail the list
mischat: On the guardian, they
had an interview
... about how bbc tracked the iranian elections through twitter
<danbri> that would be great, +1 from me
mischat: would people be happy to hear that.
<hhalpin> sounds interstig, particulary re provenance use case danbri brought up earlier
<danbri> provenance and retweet api discussions continue in the statusnet list
<cperey> anyone from OpenSocial?
<cperey> I've touched bases with David Glazer
<danbri> http://lists.status.net/pipermail/statusnet-dev/2009-September/002344.html - statusnet / retweet thread
hhalpin: bblfish do you have any updates?
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] adam to write up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action12]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] rreck to flesh out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies and null provenance [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action13]
bblfish: I will be meeting with someone in Paris here
<hhalpin> When you meet up with Tim ping me
<hhalpin> And I can walk you and Tim through the W3C CVS editing process
<hhalpin> and we can hopefully get Oshani on the week.
<hhalpin> Oshani on the call - and Karl also would know all of this!!
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Oshani to merge document takedown with time-related takedown "forget this in ten years" and more general concept of data removal. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action14]
bblfish: I would like to have a document to be easier to read.
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] oshani to reframe the geolocation/intent/portability [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action15]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] oshani to flesh out "Intransitivity of Policies Applied to Social Network Data" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action16]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] bblfish to relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access and takedown to data "about" you [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action17]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] bblfish to merge Family and Group access usecases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action18]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] caribou to flesh out Data Protection use-case specifying user vs. purpose, cite their work in PrimeLife [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action19]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] hhalpin explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action20]
<oshani> 2 of my actions are done: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Document_Takedowns and http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Intransitivity_of_Policies_Applied_to_Social_Network_Data
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] oshani to flesh out "Intransitivity of Policies Applied to Social Network Data" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action21]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] Oshani to merge document takedown with time-related takedown "forget this in ten years" and more general concept of data removal. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action22]
bbb: a lot of the user stories we have are centered on individuals
Ros: we have experimented into social networks
<PhilA> Guest speaker: Ros Lawler, random House
Ros: identifying fan and interests group
<PhilA> uses social networks to find fan groups
<PhilA> create fan groups
Ros: creating fan groups
... the work of analysis is a lot easier
<PhilA> Will try Karl
<PhilA> If there's no fan gourp - how do we create one
<bblfish> terry Pratchet
<PhilA> Need to understand the community, like Terry Pratchett
<PhilA> Approached Bebo to do some promo work as taregting younger demographic
<PhilA> Bebo more creative
<PhilA> Contatcted marketing folk at Bebo - make it interesting nad we'll make it easy for you
<PhilA> get folk on Bebo to dress up as Dsicword characters
<PhilA> Got list of over x thousand friends - quick data captyre
<PhilA> Facebook has lots of activity. Some good some not
<PhilA> Worked well - long cookery list
<bblfish> "cooking the books"
<PhilA> Group called cooking teh books - work within frameowrk of social network
<PhilA> We have author sites, chick let sites etc
<bblfish> ROY - return on invsetment
social networks can be really time consuming
<PhilA> Can be time consuming to run a new group - so need to make sure we're actually getting sales
direct sales are really poor in social network
<PhilA> Need to fine ways to build data capture
<PhilA> E-mail gives us a good ROI - use SNs to capture e-mail etc.
<PhilA> Good publicity success on the back of SNs
<PhilA> Still working on how much time do you put in
karl wonders if there are metrics for measuring
<PhilA> balance of effort/return
ccc: one of the obsessive topic is privacy
ros: it has to be opt-in.
... in terms of our privacy we don't have any
<PhilA> Some of us did this from our personal profiles - now moved into professional area
<PhilA> Now done in name of author, or publishing house or imprint
ccc: are there missing features on twitter?
<PhilA> PhilA: is there things you'd like to see on Twitter and SNs?
ros: it is very time consuming, we could a one login for all of them.
<PhilA> Ros: Don't think there is a shortcut - wish there were one
<bblfish> "onr login to all of them"
ros: log in to all of them, etc.
<PhilA> Lots of people here being shown how to use Tweetdeck etc. IT teems say no to download and install anything
<bblfish> so you have to work from home :-)
<PhilA> Everyone appreciates the argument but it gets in the way.
<PhilA> So there's a rpobelm from a corporate point of view
<Zakim> karl, you wanted to ask if it is time consuming to contribute or to read
<MacTed> (trouble with Twitter echoes to Facebook, LJ, etc., is -- how can I read my Tweetstream *and* those others without endless duplication/multiplication? Usenet is hard to reinvent!)
<PhilA> DKA: Vodafone is very large and conservative - the culture change needed for corporate networks to be available is big. It's still happening, we're not there yet. But it does need to happen
<PhilA> .. it happens from the PR organisation, not the IT team
<PhilA> .. the PR team get it - the IT Crew may need more persuasion
<PhilA> DKA: Maybe there's somthing to be said about Best pratice for large orgnaisations
<PhilA> IT policies can be a blocker to adoption
<PhilA> Ros: We're also discussing cost. We take up a lot of bandwidth looking at facebook and so on - what is the legitimate use of the system. Video increasingly improtant
<PhilA> Karl: Is it time consuming to read or to contribute?
<PhilA> Ros: Both take a lot of time to do properly. It's about establishing a relationship. Doing it meaningfully takes time
<danbri> re "Best pratice for large orgnaisations", ... interesting suggestion
<mischat> i recall Habitat™ using Twitter to get advertising traffic, and was caught out for trying to hijack #iranelections to sell their products http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8116869.stm. I wonder how bad that was for their reputation
<PhilA> Karl: From my experience it's a lot easier to track things when you're organised. An aggregator can create dynamic lists, and filtering. Contributing can take longer
<PhilA> Ros: We're creating content that we want to be able to distribute across multiple sites - hence we've created out own widget that gives you free access to some new books etc.
<PhilA> .. gets more mass reach through social objects and automated distribution
<PhilA> Adam: We (boeing) did a bench mark study about the culture - we had to not release tech because the culture wasn't ready. Is this going to save me time and money?
culture is more important than technology. Pushbacks are coming from the need to understand if it will be beneficial to the company
<PhilA> Culture more improtant than tech
<PhilA> Ros: When I joined 3 years ago digital literacy was very low. Now we've built it up throughout the organisation
<PhilA> ack: bblfish
bblfish: how many social networks you are following and contributing?
<PhilA> bblfish: How many SNs do you contribute to/follow and how many can you not join because it's too much work
<PhilA> Ros: we do have a lot of marketeers across the company - probably 10 or so across the group - and we go where the fans/readers are
<PhilA> .. yes, we're on TWitter and FB because that's where the numbers are but then we'll do more specialist things like, for example, LinkedIn for launching Richard Branson's book
<PhilA> Ros: from a user point of view, there has tpo be a really big driver to sign up for another SN, setting up a new account
<hhalpin> thinking of ning
<mischat> agreed hhalpin
<PhilA> .. we'll see them set up, say FB nad then go to Twitter, but there needs to be a stroing interest to get them to move
<PhilA> harry: Ojne thing we're interested in is standardisation - making it easier for everyone
<danbri> doh, skype-out account ran dry...
<PhilA> .. all the things I've been invited to are based on Ning and there are otehr specialist sites - do you think some sort of distributed SN standard would help or hurt businesses?
<danbri> re publisher industry use of social nets, relatedly i heard that many Myspace API efforts eg http://search.cpan.org/dist/WWW-Myspace/lib/WWW/Myspace.pm are driven by needs of music publicists
<PhilA> Ros: The publis that we're trying to reach are quite sophisticted. If it's not as good as facebook then it's not any good. It must do at least that much.
<PhilA> What we want is a mix of personal pages and advertising - that's the ideal - for us
<hhalpin> W3C Widgets comes to mind...
<PhilA> .. we have to make a differnet version of our widget for different SNs
<hhalpin> And of course OpenSocial
<PhilA> ack: Mischa
<PhilA> mischa: I saw habitat jumping on the #iranelections tag on twitter to get people to go to their shops. Any otehr examples of other people doing it wrong?
<PhilA> Ros: They had a lot of bad PR. but the dust has settled. It did them damage but it's gone and long term it's not really an issue
<PhilA> .. Moonfruit were in the press a lot. twitter banned #moonfruit eventually
<danbri> re w3c widgets -meet- social networks, see http://incubator.apache.org/wookie/
<PhilA> They'r a white label website provider. Just include #moonfruit in your tweet and get a free xyz - and Twitter jumped in editorially for the first time. Big discussion./
<mischat> agreed bblfish !
<PhilA> bblfish: so that raises the question of ownership?
<PhilA> .. there's an editor that can ban people from the network - in a distributed system everyone wons their own stuff. Would that be seen as valuable
<hhalpin> (yes, this returns to the licensing issues)
<PhilA> Ros: yes. Look at the T&Cs - Ning owns copyright on anythign you post - so we can't post any of our book content because actually we own that, not them!
<mischat> good point
<hhalpin> it would be interesting not just to look at privacy policies but content ownership
<mischat> agreed hhalpin
<hhalpin> thanks ross!
<hhalpin> ACTION: Archer to write summary of Ros's talk [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-swxg-minutes.html#action25]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Write summary of Ros's talk [on Phil Archer - due 2009-09-30].
<hhalpin> Adjourn Meeting.
<bblfish> we should do a podcast of these meetings ;-)