08:59:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
08:59:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-irc
08:59:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:59:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mediafrag
08:59:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
08:59:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
08:59:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
08:59:55 <trackbot> Date: 23 September 2009
09:00:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:00:31 <jackjansen> zakim, code?
09:00:31 <Zakim> the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jackjansen
09:00:34 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has now started
09:00:38 <Zakim> +raphael
09:00:45 <raphael> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0129.html
09:00:51 <raphael> Chair: Erik, Raphael
09:01:12 <raphael> Present: Conrad, Jack, Michael, Silvia, Raphael, Thierry, Yves
09:01:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:01:55 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
09:02:04 <Zakim> +Jack_Jansen
09:02:16 <Zakim> +Simon_Pieters
09:02:30 <raphael> Scribe: jackjansen
09:02:35 <raphael> Scrinenick: jackjansen
09:02:46 <conrad> Zakim, Simon_Pieters is me
09:02:46 <Zakim> +conrad; got it
09:04:16 <Zakim> +tmichel
09:04:23 <raphael> scribenick: jackjansen
09:04:25 <Zakim> +Yves
09:04:27 <erik> erik has joined #mediafrag
09:04:36 <raphael> Present+ Erik
09:05:01 <jackjansen> TOPIC: 1 admin
09:05:19 <conrad> Zakim, mute me
09:05:19 <Zakim> conrad should now be muted
09:05:33 <raphael> Minutes telecon: http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html
09:05:44 <raphael> Minutes F2F: http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-mediafrag-minutes.html and http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html
09:05:47 <mhausenblas> +1
09:05:51 <raphael> +1
09:05:58 <Zakim> +erik
09:06:13 <jackjansen> Raphael: minutes approved
09:06:36 <silvia> +1
09:06:41 <conrad> Zakim, unmute me
09:06:41 <Zakim> conrad should no longer be muted
09:07:09 <jackjansen> Thierry: action-111 is ongoing
09:07:48 <jackjansen> TOPIC: 2 UC & requirements
09:08:00 <conrad> Zakim, mute me
09:08:00 <Zakim> conrad should now be muted
09:08:14 <jackjansen> Raphael: 105 and 106 are ongoing, will try to do this afternoon
09:08:31 <raphael> ACTION-95?
09:08:31 <trackbot> ACTION-95 -- Michael Hausenblas to review ALL UC with a mobile hat on and check whether these sufficiently cover the mobile usage -- due 2009-09-02 -- OPEN
09:08:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/95
09:09:10 <jackjansen> Michael: on 95 there seem to be no issues with mobile
09:09:34 <jackjansen> RESOLVED: 95, no special issues for mobile
09:10:51 <raphael> Side Conditions are in 2 documents: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-reqs/#side-conditions
09:10:58 <raphael> which document should it be?
09:11:05 <raphael> close ACTION-95
09:11:05 <trackbot> ACTION-95 Review ALL UC with a mobile hat on and check whether these sufficiently cover the mobile usage closed
09:11:16 <raphael> Jack: I agree it should be in one document, no preference
09:12:07 <jackjansen> Raphael: tends to think its requirement doc
09:12:10 <mhausenblas> +1
09:12:43 <jackjansen> ACTION: Raphael to move section to requirements doc only
09:12:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Raphael
09:12:54 <raphael> Silvia: about your suggestion of removing the side conditions section in one of the two document
09:13:09 <jackjansen> ACTION: troncy to move section to requirements doc only
09:13:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-113 - Move section to requirements doc only [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2009-09-30].
09:13:15 <raphael> ... we will remove it from the spec and keep it in the requirements doc
09:13:33 <silvia> +1
09:13:54 <jackjansen> TOPIC: 3 specification
09:14:11 <raphael> ACTION-109?
09:14:11 <trackbot> ACTION-109 -- Erik Mannens to and Davy to write a paragraph in the documents to explain why we don't include this feature in the spec (rationale) based on the group analysis (impact both req and spec documents) -- due 2009-09-24 -- OPEN
09:14:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/109
09:14:31 <raphael> Yes, Silvia, this is Erik action we are talking about
09:14:31 <jackjansen> Erik: 109 will be done this week
09:14:40 <raphael> ACTION-110?
09:14:40 <trackbot> ACTION-110 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to silvia to Draft a summary starting from her blog post and the 17/09/2009 IRC minutes in the document (role of ? and #) -- due 2009-09-24 -- OPEN
09:14:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/110
09:14:49 <silvia> 110 will be done this week
09:14:50 <raphael> ... what's the status of this action?
09:14:57 <silvia> not done yet
09:15:05 <jackjansen> Silvia: 110 also this week
09:15:22 <jackjansen> Raphael: let's talk about range syntax
09:15:50 <raphael> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0133.html
09:16:11 <silvia> I just a few minutes ago sent an update on that discussion
09:16:25 <silvia> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0135.html
09:17:08 <silvia> does anyone have the specification that Yves pointed out will update the RFC to satisfy the need for other range types?
09:18:32 <conrad> if we are going to make a spec for time range units, i agree with silvia's proposal that both Range request header and Content-Range response header should use "time:npt" etc.
09:20:29 <conrad> if we start re-using parsers then we need to have the same syntax constraints in both
09:20:53 <conrad> eg. commas have a special meaning in headers
09:20:56 <conrad> Zakim, unmute me
09:20:56 <Zakim> conrad should no longer be muted
09:21:00 <jackjansen> Jack: prefres to stay close to existing http syntax
09:21:58 <silvia> we are not making any differences to existing http syntax
09:22:13 <jackjansen> Conrad: also syntax in different http headers
09:22:19 <jackjansen> Jack: agrees
09:22:23 <silvia> the RFC has been reviewed: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/85
09:22:35 <conrad> Zakim, mute me
09:22:35 <Zakim> conrad should now be muted
09:22:42 <silvia> one change was "make name of header value production for "Range" consistent with other headers"
09:22:46 <jackjansen> Raphael: proposed resolution: adapt proposal from Silvia, with both range and content-range
09:23:00 <jackjansen> ... using dimension:unit
09:23:02 <conrad> Zakim, unmute me
09:23:02 <Zakim> conrad should no longer be muted
09:23:15 <raphael> Range: <dimension>[':' <unit>] '=' <start time> - <end time>
09:23:18 <jackjansen> s/adapt/adopt
09:23:40 <jackjansen> conrad: units not optional
09:23:43 <Yves> +1 to no optional unit
09:23:55 <jackjansen> +1
09:23:56 <raphael>  Range: <dimension> ':' <unit> '=' <start time> - <end time>
09:24:13 <raphael> same for Content6range
09:24:17 <silvia> why no optional unit?
09:24:20 <conrad> if any of the time are allowed to have frame offsets, the unit must be there
09:24:22 <raphael> s/Content6range/Content-Range
09:24:25 <jackjansen> Raphael: revised proposal: units not optional, same for content-range
09:24:35 <conrad> Zakim, mute me
09:24:35 <Zakim> conrad should now be muted
09:24:45 <raphael> +1 for this proposal
09:25:28 <raphael> silvia, if the offset is at the frame precision, then unit is mandatory
09:25:37 <Yves> silvia, because machines are nto humans
09:25:42 <Yves> s/nto/not
09:25:50 <jackjansen> beep beep
09:26:03 <raphael> Silvia, no objection ?
09:26:19 <silvia> no, I am not too worried about optional/non-optional unit in Range
09:26:23 <silvia> +1
09:26:32 <silvia> just curious about reasoning :)
09:26:40 <mhausenblas> +1
09:26:56 <jackjansen> RESOLUTION: range and unit are non-optional in content-range and range headers
09:27:13 <silvia> btw: the draft RFC update is here http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-07#page-8
09:27:39 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
09:27:48 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:27:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
09:27:55 <jackjansen> Raphael: next, should we use range for addressing tracks?
09:27:57 <conrad> Zakim, unmute me
09:27:57 <Zakim> conrad should no longer be muted
09:28:10 <raphael> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Server-parsed_Fragments
09:28:14 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:28:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
09:28:29 <conrad> silvia: what is your response about use of range for track?
09:28:29 <jackjansen> ... Conrad wants new header, Silvia wants to reuse range
09:29:10 <jackjansen> Yves: range header is mainly numeric
09:29:11 <silvia> I wonder why we need a different header for that - let me read up on the email thread
09:29:22 <Zakim> -raphael
09:29:50 <jackjansen> Yves: we will wait for raphael to return
09:31:24 <silvia> so, Yves, do you agree about creating a new "Fragment:" header for tracks?
09:31:35 <conrad> you can't take an interval of track names, or describe the instance-length for Content-Range
09:31:47 <jackjansen> We will continue.
09:32:21 <silvia> you could if the tracks were ordered
09:32:32 <silvia> then the "instance-length" could be the number of tracks
09:32:33 <jackjansen> Yves: if we have it in range, would we need resolver to map track names to byte ranges?
09:34:07 <jackjansen> zakim, who is here?
09:34:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see mhausenblas, Jack_Jansen, conrad, tmichel, Yves, erik
09:34:09 <silvia> we need such a resolver for time, too
09:34:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see erik, Zakim, RRSAgent, tmichel, jackjansen, silvia, mhausenblas, conrad, trackbot, Yves
09:34:51 <conrad> silvia: how do you request "t=20/20&track=audio" as a Range header, and how do you make the Content-Range response?
09:35:17 <jackjansen> Yves: anyone has any response to my question?
09:35:20 <silvia> multiple Range headers
09:35:25 <jackjansen> Jack: no opinion
09:35:28 <silvia> multiple Content-Range response headers
09:35:55 <Yves> multiple content ranges are allowed
09:36:06 <jackjansen> Yves: there is a similarity to what we said about crop
09:36:15 <Yves> s/crop/aspect ratio/
09:36:26 <Yves> is track as a #fragment really required?
09:36:35 <silvia> can you explain the similarity that you see?
09:36:51 <Yves> when a URI can be contructed with the relevantstarting/ending time
09:37:15 <jackjansen> Should we table this until next week, silvia?
09:37:33 <Yves> having named tracks instead of numeric value adds unnecessary complexity that requires a resolver, or a way to enumerate all the tracks in order
09:37:59 <silvia> I do believe the track and also the id issues aren't fully understood yet
09:38:37 <silvia> I also believe that it is good to focus on solving the "time" specification and protocol procedure now, but the others can wait a bit
09:38:52 <conrad> Yves, that relates to ISSUE-4
09:39:11 <silvia> we could indeed keep discussing this on the mailing list until we have the spec for "time" finalised
09:39:13 <jackjansen> Yves: table, discuss on mail or next week.
09:39:56 <jackjansen> TOPIC: 4, test cases
09:40:08 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases
09:40:59 <jackjansen> Michael: on action 93, it doesn't seem to affect anything
09:41:38 <jackjansen> RESOLVED: action-93, no test cases were affected
09:41:45 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-93
09:41:45 <trackbot> ACTION-93 Revisit the TC and see which are effected by the temporal-optional-comma-decision closed
09:42:19 <jackjansen> Michael: remove test case 4, as aspect ratio is gone
09:42:29 <Yves> +1
09:42:48 <jackjansen> ACTION on Michael to remove it
09:42:48 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
09:43:04 <jackjansen> ACTION Michael to remove test case 4
09:43:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-114 - Remove test case 4 [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-09-30].
09:43:20 <mhausenblas> state semantics http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc
09:44:03 <jackjansen> Michael: on to action 108
09:44:34 <mhausenblas> Michael: empty means that it is defined but yields empty representation
09:44:40 <conrad> Zakim, mute me
09:44:40 <Zakim> conrad should now be muted
09:45:17 <jackjansen> Michael: looking at naming of test cases, empty versus undefined
09:45:41 <jackjansen> ... is inconsistent, will clean it up
09:46:17 <jackjansen> ... empty means - yields empty representation
09:46:46 <jackjansen> s/yields/defined, but yields
09:46:57 <mhausenblas> two main categories: defined or undefined
09:47:14 <jackjansen> ... undefined means - no range given
09:47:37 <mhausenblas> empty is defined, but yields empty representation
09:48:47 <jackjansen> ACTION Michael to come up with categorization of test cases wrt empty, undefined, etc
09:48:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-115 - Come up with categorization of test cases wrt empty, undefined, etc [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-09-30].
09:49:20 <jackjansen> TOPIC: 5 issues
09:49:39 <jackjansen> Jack: no idea on issue 6
09:50:21 <jackjansen> Yves: table it until Raphael is back
09:50:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html Yves
09:50:32 <conrad> Zakim, unmute me
09:50:32 <Zakim> conrad should no longer be muted
09:50:33 <Zakim> -tmichel
09:50:33 <jackjansen> Tves: let's adjourn the meeting
09:50:34 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
09:50:40 <Zakim> -conrad
09:50:41 <Zakim> -Yves
09:50:51 <Zakim> -Jack_Jansen
09:51:07 <jackjansen> ok, thanks!
09:51:20 <jackjansen> Too many different syntaxes with rrsagent and zakim:-)
09:51:52 <Zakim> -erik
09:51:53 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
09:51:55 <Zakim> Attendees were raphael, mhausenblas, Jack_Jansen, conrad, tmichel, Yves, erik
09:51:56 <Yves> yeah we should unify those ;)
09:52:10 <Yves> trackbot, end telcon
09:52:11 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
09:52:11 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
09:52:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
09:52:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html trackbot
09:52:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
09:52:13 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
09:52:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Raphael to move section to requirements doc only [1]
09:52:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-irc#T09-12-43
09:52:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: troncy to move section to requirements doc only [2]
09:52:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-irc#T09-13-09