15:43:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:43:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-CSS-irc
15:43:19 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:43:19 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
15:46:58 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
15:49:16 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
15:56:54 <glazou> Zakim, code?
15:56:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
15:57:20 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:26 <Zakim> +glazou
15:58:03 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
15:58:15 <plinss> zakim, +1.858 is me
15:58:15 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
15:58:51 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aabb
15:59:02 <glazou> bradk: when I click on my MBP mouse, I hear sound in my VoIP :-)
15:59:30 <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aabb
15:59:31 <oyvinds> oyvinds has joined #css
16:00:15 <bradk> I just tried to say Hello. Waqs not understood. Then the connection died. Going to be one of those days.
16:01:01 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aacc
16:01:08 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
16:01:29 <Zakim> + +49.238.aadd
16:01:31 <plinss> zakim, +1.650 is bradk
16:01:31 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:02:08 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:02:19 <dbaron> Zakim, mute [Mozilla]
16:02:19 <Zakim> [Mozilla] should now be muted
16:02:21 <Zakim> +Bert
16:02:45 <CesarAcebal> I've just dialed in. I'm not sure which is my number. ;)
16:02:54 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, bradk, TabAtkins, +49.238.aadd, [Mozilla] (muted), Bert
16:02:59 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:03:00 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
16:03:08 <glazou> Zakim, aadd is CesarAcebal 
16:03:12 <Zakim> +CesarAcebal; got it
16:04:08 <bradk> \me needs coffee
16:04:37 <dbaron> let me try another calling system...
16:04:43 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:04:59 <bradk> \me
16:05:09 <Zakim> +??P6
16:05:27 <TabAtkins> Linux /me conventions, Brad, not Windows.
16:06:24 <Zakim> + +1.650.924.aaee
16:06:27 <dbaron> Zakim, mute aaee
16:06:27 <Zakim> +1.650.924.aaee should now be muted
16:06:32 <dbaron> Zakim, aaee is David_Baron
16:06:32 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
16:06:39 <dbaron> did you hear noise when I joined?
16:06:56 <TabAtkins> No.
16:07:04 <Bert> Apart from the normal Zakim beep?
16:07:17 <dbaron> could you hear me talking?
16:07:21 <dbaron> er, I'm muted!
16:07:21 <glazou> no
16:07:25 <Bert> No, no talking.
16:07:26 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute Baron
16:07:26 <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Baron
16:07:29 <Bert> But somebody is typing...
16:07:32 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:07:32 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:07:33 <arronei> arronei has joined #CSS
16:07:37 <Zakim> -bradk
16:07:48 <bradk> Doh!
16:08:08 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:08:08 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:08:22 <Zakim> +bradk
16:08:25 <glazou> Peter, let's start ?
16:09:02 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:09:26 <fantasai> Peter: Anything to add to agenda?
16:09:35 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:09:48 <Bert> http://www.w3.org/mid/A56057A4896BEC4BA13EE4C45CEB4FED2B7F7D19E6@GVW0538EXC.americas.hpqcorp.net
16:10:03 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:10:19 <fantasai> Topic: TPAC
16:10:34 <fantasai> Peter: We have a wiki page for proposed topics, please add topics
16:10:34 <glazou> TPAC wiki page http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tpac-2009
16:10:59 <fantasai> Peter: There's a question of what we need for facilities
16:11:08 <fantasai> Bert: Only need to know whether we need a phone or a flip chart
16:11:24 <fantasai> Steve: Is there a whiteboard? We need something to write on
16:12:03 <fantasai> glazou reads out equip list: just chairs for members, network, and LCD projector
16:12:14 <fantasai> Steve: So we need a flip chart
16:12:20 <fantasai> glazou: Do we need a phone?
16:12:29 <fantasai> Steve: Ask by email?
16:13:14 <fantasai> Tab: I would like to call in, as I can't make it in person
16:14:10 <fantasai> ACTION Daniel to ask how many members will need to call in
16:14:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-177 - Ask how many members will need to call in [on Daniel Glazman - due 2009-09-30].
16:14:31 <fantasai> Daniel: Was thinking of arranging a meeting of present and former CSSWG members for dinner on Sunday
16:14:54 <fantasai> Bert, Steve in favor
16:15:09 <howcome> howcome has joined #css
16:15:14 <fantasai> Daniel: So Sunday 7pm before TPAC in lobby of hotel
16:15:22 <Zakim> -bradk
16:15:25 <Zakim> +mauro
16:15:37 <dbaron> arrivals to SFO from Europe are unlikely to get in that late unless you have to change on the east coast
16:15:44 <Zakim> +bradk
16:15:47 <fantasai> Bert might not be there quite yet
16:16:04 <fantasai> Peter: Any other items for TPAC?
16:16:07 <fantasai> <silence>
16:16:12 <dbaron> of course, if you're going to SJC, you probably have to change somewhere...
16:16:31 <fantasai> Steve: Does anyone have plans for dinner on Monday night?
16:16:39 <fantasai> Steve: We can do that on the fly at the meeting 
16:16:58 <dbaron> hopefully we'll have enough cars to transport people
16:17:11 <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Test Suite Deadlines
16:17:19 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:17:19 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:17:20 <Bert> I won't have a car. (Plan to stay at conference hotel.)
16:17:23 <fantasai> Peter: dbaron sent out an email about this
16:17:36 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2009JulSep/0101.html
16:17:46 <fantasai> dbaron: Back in June we agreed the deadline for submission of css2.1 tests would be last week
16:17:51 <fantasai> dbaron: I did submit a whole bunch of tests
16:18:02 <fantasai> dbaron: But it seems the deadline should be at a point after we have a list of what we have
16:18:15 <fantasai> dbaron: Certainly getting a list of all the tests we have blocks getting reviews
16:18:22 <fantasai> dbaron: for which we have another deadline in 3 months
16:18:48 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:19:13 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:19:13 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:19:25 <fantasai> Peter: Do we have more tests to submit, or are we just waiting to plug in the holes?
16:19:30 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:19:30 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:19:46 <fantasai> fantasai: We also have e.g. bz, who wants to submit tests for issues we haven't resolved yet
16:19:50 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:19:50 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:20:06 <fantasai> dbaron: We also have contributors who would want to submit tests, but want to know what tests we don't have yet so they can write those
16:20:24 <fantasai> Peter: Sounds like the primary issue here is getting a single list of what tests we have and what tests we need.
16:20:26 <dbaron> yep
16:20:35 <fantasai> Peter: How do we do that?
16:20:53 <fantasai> Steve: Does it make sense to have part of our F2F be a review of test coverage?
16:21:11 <dbaron> fantasai: no
16:21:23 <dbaron> fantasai: On Monday, Arron and I did some organization of the test suite repository.
16:21:34 <dbaron> fantasai: Next step is to check in all the tests that have been submitted.
16:21:45 <dbaron> fantasai: Then we need to index them.
16:22:06 <dbaron> fantasai: We have a script that indexes tests, but it currently does it incorrectly.
16:22:17 <dbaron> fantasai: Also need to check that the submitted tests have the relevant metadata.
16:22:35 <dbaron> fantasai: We may have this done by TPAC, maybe not.  Hope to have it done at least by December.
16:22:44 <dbaron> glazou: How many tests do we have now?
16:22:57 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:22:57 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:23:04 <glazou> find . type f | wc
16:23:10 <glazou> find . -type f | wc
16:23:15 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:23:15 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:23:26 <dbaron> or really: find . type f | wc -l
16:23:45 <dbaron> fantasai: I'm getting 16,000 files.
16:24:03 <glazou> find . -type f | grep -v svn | wc
16:24:09 <dbaron> ?: You're getting a lot of files in ".svn" directories
16:24:22 <dbaron> s/?:/TabAtkins:/
16:24:25 <fantasai> ~8000 tests
16:24:30 <dbaron> fantasai: 8000 tests
16:24:53 <dbaron> fantasai: And I haven't even put in a lot of the tests submitted over the past 6 months.
16:25:05 <dbaron> fantasai: So probably close to 10,000.
16:25:45 <dbaron> glazou: We need to release CSS 2.1 as REC in the charter timeline, and the number of test reviews we have on the radar is scary.
16:26:02 <dbaron> fantasai: We should at least have all the tests needing review in one place by TPAC.
16:26:11 <dbaron> fantasai: I'll try to get a coverage report by TPAC.
16:26:33 <dbaron> fantasai: At that point, we'll at least be able to see where we don't have much coverage.
16:26:56 <dbaron> fantasai: The one thing there is that Hixie's tests haven't been checked in yet, and they don't have the metadata.
16:27:09 <dbaron> fantasai: Arron has reviewed Hixie's tests and made a list of what metadata they should have.
16:27:22 <dbaron> fantasai: If Arron could work on that we'd have a much more realistic summary.
16:27:41 <dbaron> fantasai: Actually, they might have the metadata.  I don't remember.
16:27:54 <dbaron> peterl: Sounds like by TPAC timeframe, we'll have a better handle on where we are.
16:28:20 <dbaron> peterl: Do we want to shift the deadline for contributions to...?
16:28:57 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:28:57 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:29:00 <Zakim> -bradk
16:29:22 <Zakim> +bradk
16:29:22 <fantasai> fantasai: What does the deadline mean?
16:29:39 <fantasai> dbaron: It means either we won't accept them until after implementation reports, or we're branching the test suite
16:29:48 <fantasai> dbaron: That's what I think it should mean anyway
16:29:52 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:29:52 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:29:55 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:29:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, TabAtkins, CesarAcebal, Bert, ??P6, David_Baron (muted), SteveZ, mauro, bradk
16:30:04 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:30:04 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:30:14 <fantasai> fantasai: After we do any implementation reports, or after we do the implementation reports that pass
16:30:33 <fantasai> dbaron: after CSS2.1 reaches PR
16:31:24 <fantasai> Peter: When do we want the deadline?
16:31:27 <fantasai> fantasai suggests February
16:31:33 <fantasai> Peter: That seems kinda late
16:31:39 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:31:39 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:31:50 <fantasai> Peter: We need to be producing implemenetation reports by early spring
16:31:52 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:31:52 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:32:14 <fantasai> Peter: end of year?
16:32:24 <fantasai> fantasai: Jan 15, so people have time to get back from the holidays
16:32:51 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:32:51 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:33:02 <fantasai> RESOLVED: New deadline Jan 15th for test contributions to CR->PR set of tests (later contributions accepted for interop tests)
16:33:04 <dbaron> Peter: so March 15 for reviews?
16:33:54 <fantasai> Peter: Anything else on this topic?
16:34:24 <fantasai> Bert: what do we do with the snapshots on the test page
16:34:27 <fantasai> ?
16:35:03 <glazou> uuuuurgh, 10,000 tests and 173 days that's ~58 tests reviewed per day, 7 days per week
16:35:31 <Zakim> -bradk
16:35:43 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:35:43 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:36:05 <fantasai> dbaron: We don't need to necessarily hold very strict review standards
16:36:12 <Zakim> +bradk
16:36:36 <fantasai> dbaron: In some cases, checking that they pass in a browser they should pass in and fail in a browser they should fail in is sufficient
16:36:51 <fantasai> glazou: For simple tests, yes, but when you're dealing with e.g. margin collapsing
16:37:09 <fantasai> dbaron: fwiw I started reviewing some of the tests I was actioned to review
16:37:18 <fantasai> dbaron: and one of my comments was that these 500 tests should be collapsed into one
16:37:26 <fantasai> dbaron: There are some cases where there are more tests than necessary
16:37:40 <fantasai> glazou: I'm really afraid that this test suite is going to be the gordion knot of our spec
16:37:48 <fantasai> glazou: I don't want it to be a blocking factor.
16:37:51 <fantasai> glazou: I'm scared
16:38:16 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:38:16 <Zakim> David_Baron was not muted, dbaron
16:38:20 <fantasai> Steve: Does that suggest we put the test suite up and ask the browser vendors to run it and come back with the tests that they doubt
16:38:23 <fantasai> ?
16:38:29 <fantasai> dbaron: That's one of the ways we've dealt with other test suites in the past
16:38:39 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:38:39 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:39:22 <fantasai> peter: That's not a bad approach in general. Assume they're good, and if there's a statistically-high number of complaints
16:39:27 <fantasai> peter: then look into that
16:40:32 <fantasai> fantasai: I think that's fine, but also if there are some tests that have been manually reviewed we should keep track of that
16:40:41 <fantasai> fantasai: That's valuable work, and we should be tracking it
16:40:54 <fantasai> Peter: Agreed
16:41:45 <bradk> Are there some tests that can be processed automatically, e.g. by detecting the color red?
16:41:48 <fantasai> glazou: That suggests we have to cancel our general review of all tests
16:41:52 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:41:52 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:42:36 <fantasai> fantasai: That depends on the contributor. For some contributors, I would not accept their tests unless manually-reviewed
16:42:36 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:42:36 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:42:51 <fantasai> dbaron: Also, even though we aren't going to require manual review, we should still encourage them to review them
16:43:15 <fantasai> Steve: If we're doing this then we should also have a deadline by which everyone should have run the tests
16:43:28 <fantasai> Steve: Running them by March 14th won't get us feedback
16:44:10 <fantasai> Peter: We should expect them to be run as soon as we've closed off the tests for contributions
16:44:29 <fantasai> Glazou: So we should have a Feb 15th deadline for the first run
16:44:38 <fantasai> Glazou: and then we have a chance to fix the tests and run them again by March 15
16:44:42 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:44:42 <Zakim> David_Baron was already muted, dbaron
16:44:43 <fantasai> Peter: We'll need multiple iterations
16:44:43 <bradk> crowd-sourcing some tests?
16:46:10 <fantasai> Peter: we have a framework for running the tests, right?
16:46:19 <fantasai> fantasai: We have it, but it's still set up as a prototype
16:46:30 <fantasai> fantasai: We'll have to set it up again after the Jan 15th deadline
16:46:36 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't know how to set it up
16:46:43 <fantasai> fantasai: We have to pass it data from the test suite indexing scripts
16:46:50 <fantasai> fantasai: Dom might know how to set it up
16:47:08 <fantasai> fantasai: We can also use it to report which tests have problems
16:49:20 <fantasai> fantasai: There are two things that need to work before we can use the harness
16:50:02 <fantasai> fanatasai: The harness scripts themselves, and also the indexing scripts, which feed data to the harness
16:50:16 <fantasai> fantasai: If these are working by Jan 15th, it might take maybe a week to get things set up
16:50:19 <fantasai> fantasai: if not, then I don't know
16:50:39 <fantasai> Topic: image-fit and image-position
16:50:53 <fantasai> howcome: We'd like to use it for other things like video
16:51:11 <fantasai> howcome: We have a tentative resolution to combine them into a 'fit' property
16:51:18 <fantasai> howcome: But I don't like that solution
16:51:29 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Sep/0188.html
16:51:39 <fantasai> howcome: I liked the suggestion of content-fit and content-position
16:51:46 <fantasai> howcome: They plan to use it for the whole SVG canvas
16:52:12 <fantasai> Tab: I'm fine with content-fit and content-position, and I think they should be separate properties
16:52:23 <fantasai> Tab: The only problem is that it looks like a sub-property of 'content'
16:52:30 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute David_Baron
16:52:30 <Zakim> David_Baron should no longer be muted
16:53:12 <fantasai> fantasai: I think content-fit is more confusing, because I could think it applies to text content
16:53:16 <dbaron> Zakim, mute David_Baron
16:53:16 <Zakim> David_Baron should now be muted
16:53:43 <fantasai> dbaron: I think a property that applies to image can apply to other image-like things such as video
16:53:54 <fantasai> Steve: if you said picture, then I'd go with it
16:54:01 <fantasai> Steve: they're all pictures
16:54:12 <fantasai> Bert: Picture is not a bad name  if we can go with that
16:54:51 <fantasai> howcome: if picture and image are the same, we should go with image since that's what we use on the web
16:55:31 <fantasai> Tab: If 'content' can create a replaced element when given a url, then it might make sense
16:55:38 <fantasai> Steve: replacement-fit?
16:55:56 <fantasai> fantasai: doesn't make sense for SVG. Also nobody outside this WG will have any idea what it means
16:56:31 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
16:57:03 <fantasai> howcome: If it's between image-fit and content-fit I suggest we lean towards content-fit for reasons of diplomacy
16:57:12 <fantasai> Steve: That's a first
16:57:43 <fantasai> Bert: I don't understand what SVG needs this for
16:58:06 <fantasai> fantasai: mapping preserveAspectRatio to CSS
16:58:57 <fantasai> Bert: My impression is that content-fit would mean that anything that is inserted as part of the 'content' property
16:59:06 <fantasai> Bert: That's not the impression I get. 'image-' would work better
16:59:17 <fantasai> Brad: I agree. When I think of content I think of the content-box
16:59:28 <glazou> replaced-element-fit :)
16:59:55 <fantasai> howcome: We could explain to SVG why we want to keep image-
17:00:13 <fantasai> Steve: Someone explained that the name should be relevant to what people see, not the underlying architecture
17:00:23 <fantasai> Steve: In that sense image makes more sense than content
17:00:52 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Keep image-fit and image-position as names, explain rationale to SVG
17:00:58 <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai discuss with SVG
17:00:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-178 - Discuss with SVG [on Elika Etemad - due 2009-09-30].
17:01:02 <glazou> bye
17:01:05 <Zakim> -mauro
17:01:07 <Zakim> -bradk
17:01:08 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:01:08 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:01:09 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:11 <Zakim> -??P6
17:01:12 <Zakim> -Bert
17:01:13 <Zakim> -glazou
17:01:15 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:01:18 <Zakim> -CesarAcebal
17:01:19 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:20 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, +1.858.216.aaaa, plinss, +1.650.766.aabb, +1.650.766.aacc, TabAtkins, +49.238.aadd, bradk, Bert, David_Baron, CesarAcebal, +1.650.924.aaee, SteveZ, mauro
17:01:28 <TabAtkins> Could someone ask Hyatt to come by soon for gradients?
17:01:30 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:08:58 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
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20:47:58 <fantasai> plinss: Hey Peter, do you have time for a call sometime today or tomorrow?
22:00:25 <plinss> yeah, probably tomorrow afternoon?
22:00:42 <fantasai> do you want to set a time, or just call me?
22:01:19 <plinss> not in the office so I don't have my full calendar in front of me, but lets say 4pm?
22:01:28 <fantasai> ok
22:01:55 <plinss> ok I'll call you then, home or cell?
22:02:14 <fantasai> home would be best
22:02:18 <plinss> ok
22:02:23 <fantasai> I'll let you know if that changes
22:02:41 <plinss> np, email me at work if you need to reschedule...
22:02:51 <fantasai> ok
23:51:39 <plinss> plinss has joined #css