IRC log of ws-ra on 2009-09-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:22:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ws-ra
19:22:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to
19:22:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:22:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ws-ra
19:22:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WSRA
19:22:13 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
19:22:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
19:22:14 [trackbot]
Date: 22 September 2009
19:22:31 [Yves]
19:24:53 [li]
li has joined #ws-ra
19:25:46 [Zakim]
WS_WSRA()3:30PM has now started
19:25:53 [Zakim]
19:26:01 [Zakim]
19:26:49 [Bob]
Bob has joined #ws-ra
19:27:01 [Zakim]
+ +039331574aaaa
19:27:08 [Bob]
trackbot, start telecon
19:27:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:27:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WSRA
19:27:12 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM already started
19:27:13 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
19:27:13 [trackbot]
Date: 22 September 2009
19:27:40 [Zakim]
19:29:02 [dug]
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19:29:10 [Zakim]
19:29:17 [Zakim]
19:29:39 [asoldano]
Hi there
19:30:17 [Tom_Rutt]
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19:30:33 [Bob]
chair: Bob Freund
19:30:45 [Zakim]
19:31:09 [Zakim]
19:31:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.571.262.aabb
19:32:00 [fmaciel]
fmaciel has joined #ws-ra
19:32:02 [Ram]
Ram has joined #ws-ra
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+ +0208234aacc
19:32:12 [Vikas]
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19:32:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.970.aadd
19:32:44 [dug]
zakim who is making noise?
19:32:57 [Katy]
Katy has joined #ws-ra
19:33:03 [Zakim]
19:33:15 [Bob]
zakim ses nobody making noise now that they have muted
19:33:55 [dug]
zakim, who is making noise?
19:34:07 [Zakim]
dug, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bob_Freund (59%), +1.571.262.aabb (46%)
19:34:26 [dug]
tons of static Vikas
19:34:45 [Zakim]
19:34:47 [Vikas]
19:36:01 [Bob]
19:37:00 [DaveS]
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19:37:19 [Bob]
scribe: Li Li
19:37:29 [Bob]
scribenick: LI
19:37:50 [asoldano]
yes, I'm here
19:38:17 [asoldano]
Bob, I'm on the phone
19:38:27 [dug]
Alessio, are you muted?
19:38:32 [asoldano]
perhaps I'm muted, let me check
19:38:45 [dug]
mary had a little lamb...
19:39:31 [Bob]
Alessio, there is an audio issue, we can't hear you
19:39:35 [asoldano]
I tried 60#
19:39:40 [asoldano]
but I think I'm still muted
19:39:48 [asoldano]
039 is Italy, yes
19:39:49 [asoldano]
19:39:52 [asoldano]
I can here you
19:40:24 [dug]
zakim, umute asoldano
19:40:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'umute asoldano', dug
19:40:29 [asir]
asir has joined #ws-ra
19:40:33 [dug]
zakim, unmute asoldano
19:40:33 [Zakim]
sorry, dug, I do not know which phone connection belongs to asoldano
19:41:03 [asoldano]
OK, let me try to redial
19:41:08 [Zakim]
- +039331574aaaa
19:41:25 [gpilz]
that's ok, most of us only communicate unidirectionally in any case
19:41:27 [li]
TOPIC: agenda
19:41:30 [dug]
19:41:38 [li]
agenda agreed
19:41:40 [Zakim]
+ +039331574aaee
19:41:52 [li]
TOPIC: approval of minutes
19:42:18 [li]
bob: minutes approved
19:42:27 [li]
TOPIC: f2f next week
19:42:31 [Zakim]
- +039331574aaee
19:42:47 [Bob]
19:43:19 [li]
bob: complete it by tomorrow
19:43:41 [Ram]
19:43:56 [li]
bob: discuss next f2f in santa clara
19:44:06 [Bob]
ack ram
19:44:29 [asoldano]
sorry, I've phone issues, joining again in few sec
19:44:46 [li]
ram: publishe fpwd by friday?
19:44:55 [li]
yves: will try
19:45:42 [li]
TOPIC: schedule
19:45:43 [Zakim]
+ +039331574aaff
19:46:44 [dug]
19:46:49 [li]
TOPIC: AI reviews
19:46:57 [Bob]
ack dug
19:47:07 [li]
bob: anything can't be done by next f2f?
19:47:45 [asir]
19:48:01 [Katy]
19:48:04 [Bob]
ack asir
19:48:38 [li]
asir: ask dug if it's possible to send out proposal this week
19:48:42 [li]
dug: i think so
19:49:16 [Zakim]
+ +0759029aagg
19:49:21 [Zakim]
19:49:32 [li]
asir: ai 94 is being worked on by me, we'll take over ai from geoff
19:49:36 [Bob]
ack katy
19:50:12 [li]
katy: 61
19:50:22 [li]
TOPIC: ws-frag
19:50:51 [Yves]
dug, mail sent (re AI on x-links)
19:50:57 [dug]
19:51:18 [li]
ram: details not ready for f2f
19:51:48 [li]
ram: by the end of this week
19:52:07 [li]
19:53:07 [li]
issue opened
19:53:37 [li]
bob: any objection to the proposal in the issue?
19:54:07 [li]
ram: looks fine
19:54:13 [asoldano]
fine to me
19:54:34 [li]
bob: no objection and resolved as proposed
19:54:56 [li]
19:56:33 [li]
yves: iri is not used in xml namespace, as pointed out by asir
19:56:37 [dug]
19:56:53 [Bob]
proposal is to use IRI for everything but namespaces
19:56:54 [li]
bob: use iri in everything except namespace?
19:57:03 [Bob]
ack dug
19:57:37 [li]
dug: ws-a bounced between IRI and URI
19:57:58 [li]
...concrete strings are URI but generic ones are IRI
19:58:09 [li]
...what is the pattern for us?
19:58:43 [li]
bob: use IRI for everything but namespace and literal strings
19:58:46 [asir]
19:58:59 [Bob]
ack asir
19:59:24 [li]
asir: URI is also IRI, we can do a global replacement
19:59:33 [li]
dug: i'm still confused
19:59:57 [li]
dug: why the exception?
20:00:36 [dug]
The working group intends to update the value of the Web Services Eventing namespace URI each...
20:00:51 [li]
bob: use IRI to permit localization
20:01:14 [li]
...otherwise we stick to URI
20:02:03 [li]
dug: namespace URI -> URI, so it's not global change
20:02:48 [li]
asir: someone needs to make a line-by-line change
20:04:00 [li]
bob: we have to give either detail changes or instructions to editors
20:04:04 [gpilz]
20:04:15 [li]
dug: i like line-by-line changes
20:04:16 [Yves]
I can do this on friday
20:04:20 [Bob]
ack gpil
20:05:16 [li]
bob: prefer line-by-line changes
20:05:41 [Yves]
ACTION: Yves to produce a line-by-line diff for issue 7426
20:05:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-105 - Produce a line-by-line diff for issue 7426 [on Yves Lafon - due 2009-09-29].
20:05:51 [li]
20:06:29 [li]
20:06:39 [Bob]
proposal at
20:06:52 [dug]
zakim, who is making noise?
20:07:08 [dug]
ah, sorry, didn't know it was you gil :-)
20:07:12 [Zakim]
dug, listening for 17 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bob_Freund (2%), gpilz (97%)
20:07:20 [li]
gil: explain the proposal
20:09:34 [li] is about negotiating durations
20:09:41 [DaveS]
20:09:50 [li]'s simple and efficient
20:10:06 [Bob]
ack dave
20:10:37 [li]
daves: subcription is cut down to yes/no
20:11:02 [li]
...more intelligent source can put hint in the response
20:11:27 [li] to make response clear
20:11:31 [Ram]
20:11:42 [Bob]
ack ram
20:12:18 [li]
ram: proposal is technical correct, but compatibility is an issue
20:12:48 [gpilz]
20:13:03 [li]
...developers should code against failures
20:13:59 [li]
...subscriber should be able to negotiate in different situations
20:14:59 [DaveS]
20:15:00 [dug]
20:15:32 [li]
...we need to provide right guidance to developers
20:15:50 [Bob]
ack gpi
20:15:55 [li]
...this proposal doesn't help with practical issues
20:16:11 [asir]
[Gil's voice is not clear on the phone
20:16:20 [Ram]
Gil: Your voice quality is not audible.
20:17:18 [asoldano]
the same here unfortunately
20:17:28 [li]
gil: in system integration, event sink needs to count on event source
20:18:11 [dug]
20:18:26 [Bob]
ack dave
20:18:29 [li]
...[not audible]
20:19:09 [li]
daves: incompatibilty 1: failure to provde feedback
20:19:21 [dug]
20:19:47 [li]
incompatibilty 2: provide feedback in failure
20:20:14 [li]
...3: complicated protocol and policy
20:20:37 [li]
...gil's is in the middle ground
20:20:55 [Ram]
20:21:07 [li]
...optional framework for policy later on?
20:21:15 [Bob]
ack ram
20:21:28 [gpilz]
20:21:40 [li]
ram: need to deal with device comp. issue
20:22:31 [li] from users on back comp. issues
20:23:32 [li]
ram: is not back comp. issue, rather to avoid mistakes by developers
20:23:43 [li]
bob: specific changes?
20:24:18 [li]
ram: i sent some response today, event source should decide duration,
20:24:21 [DaveS]
20:24:59 [Bob]
ack dug
20:25:01 [li]
...i can live with subscriber having an option to indicate hint
20:25:16 [Ram]
20:25:34 [li]
dug: there are cases subscriber can indicate a hint or not a hint
20:26:10 [li]
...can we have both, instead of just one?
20:26:44 [dug]
bob I'd like to respond to what he just said
20:26:51 [gpilz]
go ahead
20:26:57 [li]
ram: you are optimizing protocol to avoid unsubscribe
20:27:05 [DaveS]
20:27:17 [Bob]
ack ram
20:27:20 [li]
...what is broken?
20:27:33 [li]
gil: yield to dug
20:28:19 [li]
dug: lightweight situation can create/delete subscription at will,
20:28:32 [li]
but other situation this is expensive
20:29:01 [li] we need to indicate "i really want"
20:29:01 [Bob]
ack gp
20:29:27 [li]
gil: device and enterprise people are talking across..
20:29:40 [DaveS]
20:30:12 [li]
...we need to support both cases
20:30:14 [Bob]
ack dave
20:30:23 [Ram]
20:31:43 [li]
daves: gil's proposal covers ram's concern by not puting duration in request
20:31:59 [Bob]
ack ram
20:32:11 [gpilz]
A Subscriber MAY indicate that it is willing to accept a Subscription with any expiration time by omitting this element from the Subscribe request.
20:32:20 [li]
ram: we're making leap of faith...
20:32:42 [gpilz]
(the above is a part of the description of the optional /wse:Expirese element)
20:32:47 [gpilz]
20:33:08 [DaveS]
20:33:31 [DaveS]
Ooops I sat on the keyboard.
20:33:34 [dug]
20:33:39 [li]
...flexiblity is needed to interop
20:33:52 [li]
...let's talk more usecases in the f2f
20:34:12 [dug]
20:34:22 [li]
...i'd like to know what is your use cases...
20:34:57 [li]
..we shouldn't loose interop between device and enterprise worlds
20:35:22 [li]
...what's wrong with current spec?
20:35:44 [Bob]
ack gpi
20:35:53 [Bob]
Asir, I hear hin well
20:36:28 [dug]
there's also no guarantee that Renew will be accepted later on
20:36:29 [li]
gil: hint doesn't provide value to sink, if the time is cut off
20:36:33 [asir]
we have difficulty hearing there is a lot of background noise
20:37:03 [DaveS]
Dave agrees with Gil. A hint is the same as providing no duration at all.
20:37:29 [Bob]
ack gpi
20:37:29 [li]
...[in audible mostly]
20:37:39 [Bob]
ack dug
20:38:08 [li]
dug: 2 issue with current spec: 1 cost of unsubscribe, 2 no guarantee on renew
20:38:40 [Ram]
20:38:46 [gpilz]
katy what number do you use to dial into W3C?
20:38:56 [li]
...why isn't your requirement not supported by proposal
20:39:11 [li]
ram: i have the same question to dug
20:39:28 [dug]
20:40:17 [li]
...current spec is not burdening event source.
20:40:30 [Katy]
Gil - number is +441173706152
20:40:40 [li]
...current spec works in many different environments
20:40:46 [Bob]
ack dug
20:40:48 [Bob]
ack ram
20:41:02 [li]
dug: which use cases are not supported?
20:41:19 [li]
ram: i'm lost at what you try to solve
20:41:48 [li]
dug: what use case not supported
20:42:20 [li]
ram: not about technical content of proposal
20:42:38 [li]
...but on what's goal of the proposal
20:42:54 [li]
bob: how would you modify it?
20:43:23 [li]
ram: i'll take another stab at it
20:43:43 [li]
bob: it's about deployment, correct?
20:43:47 [DaveS]
20:43:59 [li]
bob: which line should be modified?
20:44:40 [li]
ram: though technically sound, but it doesn't help me
20:44:59 [li]
bob: what part cause you problem?
20:45:46 [li]
ram: client having two options is a problem
20:46:44 [dug]
20:46:51 [li]
ram: having two parties making decision is difficult to code
20:47:12 [Bob]
ack dave
20:47:16 [li]
ram: i'm having problem with duality
20:47:53 [Zakim]
+ +01831332aahh
20:48:11 [Ram]
20:48:12 [li]
daves: proposal puts both subscriber and source in the driver seats
20:48:23 [dug]
bob - ram can go first to answer dave
20:48:34 [dug]
it might make my question moot
20:48:41 [Bob]
ack ram
20:49:43 [li]
ram: giving dualities is a problem for developers
20:50:30 [gpilz]
20:51:12 [li]
ram: cause developers to misuse API instead of coding with interactions
20:51:42 [li]
dug: all elements in subscribe are optional
20:52:09 [li]
...why this one expiry is different from the others?
20:52:26 [li]
...while all others can fault when not satisfied
20:52:36 [Bob]
ack dug
20:53:00 [li]
ram: but there is negotiation between subscriber and source
20:53:23 [Ram]
Ram has joined #ws-ra
20:53:40 [li]
bob: why is it different from unsupported filter
20:53:45 [dug]
20:53:56 [li]
ram: others are black and white, this one is not
20:54:39 [li]
dug: please explain why they are different
20:55:23 [li]
ram: something negotiable whereas other are not
20:55:36 [DaveS]
20:55:50 [DaveS]
20:56:06 [Bob]
ack gp
20:56:12 [li]
...current spec is flexible and interop
20:56:15 [Zakim]
- +039331574aaff
20:56:44 [li]
gil: where can we go, if nothing can be modified?
20:57:24 [li]
bob: strong objection?
20:57:29 [Zakim]
20:57:32 [li]
ram: need more time
20:57:46 [li]
bob: it's long enough
20:58:12 [li]
asir: we should not close it now
20:58:54 [li]
bob: i asked many different ways
20:59:08 [li]
asir: we need to work with oracle
20:59:24 [li]
bob: what's wrong?
20:59:40 [li]
bob: we're not progressing
20:59:46 [DaveS]
I really would like specfics before allowing more time.
20:59:59 [dug]
I agree with Bob - I'm still confused as to what's wrong with the proposal
21:00:01 [li]
ram: let's spend time in f2f
21:00:19 [DaveS]
What is broken and I am happy to see more time.
21:00:45 [li]
bob: let's focuses on specifics
21:00:57 [li]
21:01:21 [li]
bob: objection or acceptance
21:01:31 [li]
ram: will work on it
21:02:04 [li]
bob: action to ram to work on the proposals
21:02:42 [li]
ACTION: ram to work on proposal for the issue
21:02:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-106 - Work on proposal for the issue [on Ram Jeyaraman - due 2009-09-29].
21:03:04 [Zakim]
- +0759029aagg
21:03:14 [Zakim]
- +1.408.970.aadd
21:03:15 [Zakim]
21:03:15 [Zakim]
- +1.571.262.aabb
21:03:16 [Zakim]
21:03:16 [Zakim]
21:03:16 [Zakim]
21:03:17 [Zakim]
21:03:20 [Zakim]
21:03:25 [Zakim]
21:03:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves
21:07:32 [gpilz]
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21:07:41 [Zakim]
- +01831332aahh
21:08:07 [Zakim]
- +0208234aacc
21:08:09 [Zakim]
WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
21:08:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were li, [Microsoft], +039331574aaaa, Bob_Freund, Doug_Davis, gpilz, Tom_Rutt, +1.571.262.aabb, +0208234aacc, +1.408.970.aadd, Yves, +039331574aaee, +039331574aaff,
21:08:13 [Zakim]
... +0759029aagg, +01831332aahh
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