13:54:48 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:54:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/22-sparql-irc 13:54:57 Zakim, this will be sparql 13:54:57 ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 13:55:15 AxelPolleres, you don't need to do rrsagent & zakim by hand in the future - you can just use "trackbot, start meeting" 13:56:56 Hello, I am Olivier Corby from INRIA Sophia Antipolis, new member of the WG 13:57:02 ah right, but I don't need to say it again now, do I? 13:57:21 Welcome Olivier! 13:57:50 hi OlivierCorby, good to have you 13:58:05 AxelPolleres, right, no need to repeat it now, though trackbot does do other things like date and stuff 13:58:08 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:58:15 +AxelPolleres 13:58:25 SimonS has joined #sparql 13:58:43 zakim, dial ivan-voip 13:58:43 ok, ivan; the call is being made 13:58:44 +Ivan 13:58:50 + +49.238.aaaa 13:58:56 SteveH_ has joined #sparql 13:59:03 +Lee_Feigenbaum 13:59:11 zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me 13:59:11 +LeeF; got it 13:59:15 zakim, mute me please 13:59:15 LeeF should now be muted 13:59:29 bglimm has joined #SPARQL 13:59:34 Zakim, +33.492.387.871 is me 13:59:34 sorry, OlivierCorby, I do not recognize a party named '+33.492.387.871' 13:59:56 +kasei 14:00:05 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:00:14 +??P21 14:00:15 Chair: AxelPolleres 14:00:18 On the phone I see AxelPolleres, Ivan, +49.238.aaaa, LeeF (muted), kasei, ??P21 14:00:21 Zakim, ??P21 is [Garlik] 14:00:22 Zakim, mute me 14:00:26 Meeting: 22 Sep 2009 14:00:33 Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM 14:00:34 +bglimm 14:00:36 +[Garlik]; got it 14:00:38 kasei should now be muted 14:00:41 Zakim, mute me 14:00:44 zakim, who is on the phone 14:00:50 +SteveH, LukeWM; got it 14:00:52 bglimm should now be muted 14:00:53 member:zakim, who is on the phone? 14:00:54 +SimonS 14:00:56 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AxelPolleres 14:01:07 zakim, who is there? 14:01:10 I don't understand your question, ivan. 14:01:13 Zakim, please disconnect ericP 14:01:13 sorry, ericP, I do not see a party named 'ericP' 14:01:16 Zakim, please disconnect eric 14:01:18 sorry, ericP, I do not see a party named 'eric' 14:01:29 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:01:29 On the phone I see AxelPolleres, Ivan, +49.238.aaaa, LeeF (muted), kasei (muted), [Garlik], bglimm (muted), SimonS 14:01:31 [Garlik] has SteveH, LukeWM 14:01:34 +EricP 14:01:52 Zakim is running with a lot of lag 14:02:22 it's the same number as Olivier, but without the country code. 14:02:25 I think Zakim is confused 14:02:52 the agenda says duration is 90 minutes, is this true? 14:02:56 Welcome Olivier 14:03:00 wouldn't be the first time 14:03:05 (that Zakim is confused) 14:03:05 Zakim, aaaa is OlivierCorby 14:03:05 +OlivierCorby; got it 14:03:09 SimonKJ has joined #sparql 14:03:19 AxelPolleres: welcome Oliver Corby to the group. 14:03:22 Scribenick: LukeWM 14:03:29 thanks LeeF 14:03:31 s/Oliver/Oliier 14:03:39 err 14:03:42 s/Oliver/Olivier 14:03:53 AxelPolleres: lets introduce Oliver Corby 14:04:01 s/Oliier/Olivier/ 14:04:01 +SimonKJ 14:04:06 OliverCorby: gives introduction 14:04:27 +??P39 14:04:30 Zakim, ??P39 is me 14:04:30 +AlexPassant; got it 14:05:06 AxelPolleres: remember to rejoin the group 14:05:28 AxelPolleres: or ask your AC rep to do it. Will check this later. 14:05:47 ericP: email problems due to recharting & not complicated enough tooling. 14:05:54 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-15 14:05:58 q+ to ask once more for people to fill out http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2 14:06:06 ack me 14:06:08 LeeF, you wanted to ask once more for people to fill out http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2 14:06:46 zakim, mut eme 14:06:46 I don't understand 'mut eme', LeeF 14:06:48 PROPOSED to accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-15 14:06:49 zakim, mute me 14:06:49 LeeF should now be muted 14:07:01 LeeF: remember to fill in F2F2 attendance. 14:07:04 -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F2 F2F wiki 14:07:11 RESOLVED to accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-09-15 14:07:52 AxelPolleres: next scribe is bijan if he doesn't still have telephone difficulties. 14:08:10 yes 14:08:16 AxelPolleres: next scribe will be Chimezie if he is there. 14:08:28 AxelPolleres: Liasions... 14:08:37 topic: liaisons 14:08:38 Zakim, unmute me 14:08:38 bglimm should no longer be muted 14:08:54 q+ to mention RIF 14:08:55 congrats, OWL and OWLers! 14:08:58 bglimm: owl went to proposed recommendation today 14:09:08 Zakim, mute me 14:09:08 bglimm should now be muted 14:09:29 chimezie has joined #sparql 14:09:34 ericP: RIF is soliciting review from Xquery because of added functions and operators 14:10:05 +Chimezie_Ogbuji 14:10:19 ericP: we might end up needing to work with RIF 14:10:35 ericP: because of collisions between our functions and operators. Perhaps a common document. 14:10:39 chime, can you scribe next time? 14:10:50 sure 14:11:00 AxelPolleres: Actions... 14:11:01 in particular, RIF F&O deal with the same atoms that we have, XSD types + URIs 14:11:05 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/open 14:11:10 (well, IRIs in our specs) 14:11:17 topic: actions 14:11:37 AxelPolleres: action for ericP to draft project expressions. 14:11:51 ericP: that's done, but perhaps someone wants something more, otherwise, lets remove it. 14:12:07 AxelPolleres: can we just close it? 14:12:18 ericP: yes 14:12:35 AxelPolleres: investigating issue 33 & creating trac links for update issues 14:12:46 AxelPolleres: for Lee, is that done? 14:12:47 Lee? 14:12:54 +Dan_Burnett 14:13:12 Zakim, Dan_Burnett is really Orri 14:13:12 +Orri; got it 14:13:56 AxelPolleres: chime, update on Aggregates issue. 14:14:18 chimezie: there was something about groups, but I don't think this is part of the action. 14:14:38 chimezie: leave the action open and I'll investigate. 14:14:52 AxelPolleres: leaves an action for himself open. 14:14:56 ack me 14:15:08 AxelPolleres: synchronising errata with Andy? 14:15:16 LeeF: can't close that yet. 14:15:23 zakim, mute me 14:15:23 LeeF should now be muted 14:15:29 LeeF: I'll go through and close the ones that need to be. 14:16:00 AxelPolleres: look into xml spec for SPARQL query with Andy - action on ericP. 14:16:21 ericP: ported SPARQL 1.1 to xml spec & update document to xml spec. 14:16:33 ericP: I don't know if Andy is using it. 14:16:42 q+ to give mailing list heads up 14:16:54 q+ re xmlspec 14:16:55 ericP: there's no point in leaving this action open. 14:17:21 +Prateek 14:17:24 SimonS: a comment on XML spec. 14:17:36 SimonS: can we have our own copy. 14:17:38 Prateek has joined #sparql 14:18:15 ericP: we're free to copy it, but we ought to use an existing one to ensure minimum differences. 14:18:41 SimonS: we have marked it up with a special class. 14:18:54 ericP: we can just tweak the XSLT to make it all visible. 14:19:01 q? 14:19:08 ack ericP 14:19:08 ericP, you wanted to mention RIF 14:19:11 ack me 14:19:12 LeeF, you wanted to give mailing list heads up 14:19:25 q- 14:19:55 LeeF: there have been some hiccups with our mailing lists, and web archives haven't caught up. 14:20:21 LeeF: we're working on it, and will keep you up to date. 14:20:47 LeeF: w3c is being marked as spam by spamcop 14:20:50 zakim, mute me 14:20:50 LeeF should now be muted 14:20:52 ack me 14:21:02 AxelPolleres: will it be fixed? 14:21:13 zakim, mute me 14:21:13 LeeF should now be muted 14:21:15 ericP: it's fixed for now but might recur. 14:21:50 s/ericP: it's fixed for now but might recur./LeeF: it's fixed for now but might recur./ 14:21:58 topic: FPWD progress 14:22:06 AxelPolleres: lets talk about where we are with the FPWD 14:22:29 1st of September? 14:22:44 AxelPolleres: we probably won't keep to end of september, but we should be as close as possible. I suggest the following schedule... 14:22:50 bglimm, end of sept. 14:22:54 ok 14:22:56 Note: mailing list archives at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/ are now up to date 14:22:58 so follow along there! 14:23:10 AxelPolleres: first internal draft next week 14:23:16 AxelPolleres: choose reviewers today 14:23:23 q? 14:23:35 AxelPolleres: decide to publish on October 13th 14:24:02 AxelPolleres: lets pick the reviewers when we go through the documents. 14:24:24 AxelPolleres: how are we with respect to schedule, any issues? 14:24:29 ack me 14:24:35 AxelPolleres: status of Sparql Query document? 14:24:51 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/ 14:25:00 LeeF: can editors paste the links of the documents before discussing them. 14:25:55 SteveH: Aggregate functions, subqueries, negation, project expressions 14:26:13 SteveH: negation, project expressions 80 -90% complete. 14:26:41 SteveH: requires more work on Aggregate functions and subqueries, but probably OK for review. 14:27:09 SteveH: Aggregate functions and project expressions aren't complete enough yet. 14:27:33 I would like to review it 14:27:39 AxelPolleres: there will be something to review next week? 14:27:45 at least 2 :) 14:27:53 SteveH: yes 14:27:57 I'd like to review all of them, actually 14:28:05 Yes. 14:28:15 but would love 2 in addition to me ;) 14:28:25 Reviewers for query: birte, Lee 14:28:28 q+ 14:28:28 AxelPolleres: bglimm has volunteered, and LeeF for all of them. 14:29:10 +1 to ivan 14:29:11 ivan: we should make it clear that we intend to merge this content with the old document. 14:29:13 ivan++ sounds like it makes sense in the status of the document 14:29:28 AxelPolleres: nobody disagrees 14:29:48 ACTION: Steve to make a comment making it clear that we intend to merge this content with the old document. 14:29:48 Created ACTION-92 - Make a comment making it clear that we intend to merge this content with the old document. [on Steve Harris - due 2009-09-29]. 14:30:27 AxelPolleres: anything urgent regarding this document? Aggregates is on agenda for next time. Is anything else needed? 14:30:39 SteveH: we need to decide on the scope of the group expressions. 14:31:01 SteveH: the algebra only allows group by variables, rather than expressions. 14:31:04 ISSUE: Does GROUP BY allow variables or expressions, and does it allow mutiple expressions? 14:31:04 Created ISSUE-41 - Does GROUP BY allow variables or expressions, and does it allow mutiple expressions? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/41/edit . 14:31:40 AxelPolleres: can you summarise it on the mailing list. 14:32:05 ivan, ok, I'll look at that 14:32:07 SteveH: I'll talk to Andy first and the issue is sufficient. 14:32:18 q+ 14:32:22 Do we try and get a third reviewer? 14:32:22 q- 14:32:43 ACTION: Steve to talk with AndyS on ISSUE-41, 14:32:43 Created ACTION-93 - talk with AndyS on ISSUE-41, [on Steve Harris - due 2009-09-29]. 14:33:00 AxelPolleres: another reviewer? 14:33:07 ack me 14:33:38 AxelPolleres: I'll be a reviewer, but next time I'll pick a victim. 14:33:47 Reviewers: Axel, Lee, Birte (in reverse order of volunteering) 14:34:09 LeeF: it's not so important now, just needs to be presentable. Near the end we will need more serious reviews. 14:34:26 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.0/ 14:34:30 q? 14:34:42 I see a lot of things that looks like XML errors 14:34:46 AxelPolleres: SimonS, can you summarize the update document. 14:35:01 SimonS: nearly done, good enough for review. 14:35:15 SimonS: ericP is on the XML issues, so they should be fixed soon. 14:36:00 ericP: we'll end up with a better stylesheet & dtd if you bear with me. 14:36:03 q+ to ask about grammar syntax 14:36:30 ericP: I want to work out the minimal diff between a live version of the stylesheet and ours first. 14:37:04 SimonS: we proposed to have a separate grammar document with an overlapping part but didn't have much response. 14:37:23 SimonS: Andy's response wasn't pro or con, so would like other opinions. 14:37:29 What does it mean to have an overlapping part? 14:37:43 bglimm, the common parts of the grammar 14:37:59 SimonS: there are some issues but they don't affect going to FPWD. 14:38:27 Hm, so you can identify what parts apply only to update and which parts apply also to standard SPARQL? 14:38:32 the person typing, pls mute! 14:38:33 SteveH: where did the html that does the grammar come from. 14:39:01 ericP: pasted grammar into Yakker??? and got that to produce the HTML. 14:39:08 q+ 14:39:22 ack SteveH 14:39:22 SteveH, you wanted to ask about grammar syntax 14:39:31 SteveH: HTML in update document looks to be just vanilla HTML. 14:41:10 AxelPolleres: lets get back to this when we talk about the shared document. 14:41:36 ivan: it would be good if we are consistent in the order of the sections, and the update document is different. 14:41:51 ivan: e.g. it has the issues starting at the beginning. Perhaps we should reorder. 14:41:56 AxelPolleres: Simon, can it be done? 14:42:07 SimonS: yes, any preference? 14:42:27 ivan: we should be as close to Steve's document in structure. 14:42:48 SteveH: we had an item on the TODO list to reorder the original SPARQL document to make it easier to read. 14:43:09 ivan: my point is that update & query documents should follow the same structure. 14:43:13 SteveH: agreed. 14:43:31 ivan: can we follow the query document. 14:43:34 ACTION: SimonS to agree with SteveH to order sections to reflect better similar structure . 14:43:34 Created ACTION-94 - Agree with SteveH to order sections to reflect better similar structure . [on Simon Schenk - due 2009-09-29]. 14:45:23 AxelPolleres: there are overlaps between the grammars, so to avoid redundancy, we should have a separate grammar document with the intersection between the grammars. 14:45:27 q+ 14:45:44 q- ivan 14:46:05 AxelPolleres: or we can just link from the query document to the update document 14:46:24 SteveH: describing update in terms of query results in a double-headed grammar. 14:46:29 q? 14:46:35 ack me 14:46:49 ericP, I didn't catch your point. 14:47:04 AxelPolleres: if you link, it still results in 2 grammars. 14:47:14 SteveH: in all cases you end up with 2 grammars. 14:48:04 ericP: conceptually, it's nice if they both reference their intersection. But from a tool perspective, it's easier to have one big piece. 14:48:21 SteveH: ericP's master grammar with annotations for each spec is a good idea. 14:49:05 AxelPolleres: Can we do the joint grammar document in time? What do the editor's say, is it doable? 14:49:32 SteveH: we aren't merging grammars. 14:49:48 non need to decide now. 14:49:52 AxelPolleres: do we need to decide yet? 14:50:06 I'll review 14:50:13 SteveH: no, differences can be describe in terms of 1.0 grammar. 14:50:28 I can do it too 14:50:41 Not concerned with that 14:50:53 reviewers:Steve, Luke, Lee 14:51:19 topic: restful update document 14:51:50 chimezie: nothing to show, just trying to collect consensus, hopefully next week there'll be something worth reviewing. 14:52:15 update-protocol-1.0? RESTful-update-1.0? 14:52:18 AxelPolleres: what is the short name for the document? 14:52:18 chimezie, is there a URL for where the draft will go yet? 14:52:34 http-update? 14:52:35 chimezie: lets not use REST in the name, something like RDF Update. 14:52:39 +1 to not using REST 14:52:41 RDF-update? http-update? 14:53:00 +1 for not using REST but using HTTP in the title 14:53:03 AxelPolleres: any preferences, RDF-update or http-update? 14:53:14 +1 to http-update 14:53:21 sparql-http-update? 14:53:27 LeeF: we just need to distinguish it from SPARQL/update sufficiently. 14:53:31 +1 to http-update 14:53:42 +1 http-rdf-update or http-update 14:53:47 AxelPolleres: lets have a quick straw poll. 14:53:58 +1 to rdf-http-update 14:54:04 +1 http-rdf-update or http-update 14:54:09 +1 http-rdf-update 14:54:12 'http-update' might not say that this is related to rdf or sparql 14:54:16 +1 http-rdf-update 14:54:17 +1 http-rdf-update 14:54:19 yeah, http-update doesn't make any sense to me :) 14:54:25 rdf-http-update or http-rdf-update:-) 14:54:32 AxelPolleres: volunteers for reviewing 14:54:41 true, I am happy with http-rdf-update or http-sparql-update 14:54:48 SimonKJ: I can review it 14:54:53 reviewer: simonKJ, simonS, Lee 14:54:55 SimonS: me too 14:55:13 AxelPolleres: I'll put Lee too. 14:55:37 protocol-1.1 14:56:04 AxelPolleres: SimonKJ, can you report on the protocol document 14:56:42 SimonKJ: I need to send CVS keys to ericP, but haven't got going with it. 14:56:44 q+ 14:57:02 SimonKJ: I hope I can get something for next week if I can get CVS sorted today. 14:57:20 LeeF: We can talk and perhaps do something jointly. 14:57:30 I might need CVS access as well since at the moment we edit in the WebOnt wiki 14:57:39 ivan: there is a practical reason why that document should be published at the same time. 14:58:03 birte ,we'll get to that, agreed. 14:58:34 ivan: if we do it now, it will be easier for companies like HP or Oracle 14:58:41 reviewers: axel 14:58:52 s/did/did not/ 14:59:01 AxelPolleres: reviewers? 14:59:03 ill do it 14:59:27 reviewers: Axel Alex 14:59:40 Zakim, unmute me 14:59:40 kasei should no longer be muted 14:59:49 topic: service description 14:59:57 service-description-1.0? 15:00:28 q+ 15:00:29 sparql-service-description ? 15:00:31 kasei: discovery stuff is settled, but vocabulary still needs to be sorted 15:00:39 kasei, that was you speaking wasn't it? 15:01:02 AxelPolleres: short name? 15:01:11 LukeWM, yes 15:01:11 ivan: all short names should start the same. 15:01:12 All short names should start with sparql- or rdf- 15:01:16 cool 15:01:37 AxelPolleres: will it be possible to review next week. 15:02:03 kasei: I don't have anything yet, but will try for something next week. It isn't as deep in scope as some of the others. 15:02:15 I can review it when it's done. 15:02:17 I'll do that one as well 15:02:19 ivan, will you be able to cover the rest of this call? i have a conflict starting now. 15:02:45 -EricP 15:02:46 reviewers: SimonK, Axel, Lee 15:02:55 Zakim, mute me 15:02:59 kasei should now be muted 15:03:03 -Ivan 15:03:23 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/features/ 15:03:29 AxelPolleres: anything with respect to update for F & R ? Will there be a new version, will things be added for time allowed features. 15:03:50 LeeF: I'm keen to hear about the status of entailment. Lets talk about this later. 15:05:08 reviewer: chime, Lee 15:05:18 Zakim, unmute me 15:05:25 http://wiki.webont.org/page/SPARQL/OWL 15:05:26 bglimm should no longer be muted 15:05:51 AlexPassant, I didn't catch what you said about the F& R status, could you put it into IRC please. 15:06:11 AlexPassant: Will update FR with more content on allowed feature by next week 15:06:24 bglimm: OWL - there's still a lot of work around what is decidable and not, but should have a decent version next week. 15:06:33 AxelPolleres: just sparql-owl? 15:07:11 bglimm: the basic difference is just what queries are allowed, so the same restrictions apply as OWL2. 15:07:36 bglimm: it isn't worth doing SPARQL RDFS because you don't gain much. 15:07:47 let's try one or two out first : 15:07:48 :) 15:07:50 AxelPolleres: is there any RIF in there? 15:08:00 blglimm: no 15:08:08 q+ to ask how the extension mechanism seems 15:08:11 ack ivan 15:08:38 LeeF: have you done enough to work out whether the structure of the extension method is enough. 15:08:43 LeeF: ? 15:08:55 blglimm: yes, I think it will work. 15:09:01 ?x rdf:type rdf:XMLLiteral 15:09:20 bglimm: yes, I think it will work. 15:09:23 does the fact that we don't have an allocated editor for RIF-related entailment put us at risk for that regime? 15:09:59 chimezie, i think we've always been at risk for that, given that it was 3rd or 4th in line for a time-permitting feature in the first place 15:10:00 shouldn't that have legitimate answers if you aren't using d-entailment and you have a resource with that type? 15:10:09 q? 15:10:13 ...but i also hope that Birte and Bijan can edit that into the /Entailment document once we get to that 15:10:16 AxelPolleres: talks with bglimm about queries which are legal but don't have a legal answer. 15:10:18 ack LeeF 15:10:18 LeeF, you wanted to ask how the extension mechanism seems 15:10:28 with help from our RIF-heads 15:10:29 according to the spec no answers 15:10:43 okay 15:10:54 ACTION: Axel to go over entailment doc to put in at least hooks for RIF/OWL RL entailments. 15:10:54 Created ACTION-95 - Go over entailment doc to put in at least hooks for RIF/OWL RL entailments. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-29]. 15:11:57 sure 15:12:05 ACTION: Axel to contact Eric to setup CVS access for new editors. 15:12:05 Created ACTION-96 - Contact Eric to setup CVS access for new editors. [on Axel Polleres - due 2009-09-29]. 15:12:32 LeeF: please send parts of drafts to the mailing list when you have them. 15:12:37 AxelPolleres: any more discussion? 15:12:45 AxelPolleres: reviewers? 15:12:52 chimezie: I'll volunteer. 15:13:21 review: chime, lee 15:13:23 AxelPolleres: anyone else, Lee? 15:13:32 LeeF, That's still useful ;-) 15:13:42 i have to go unfortunately 15:13:46 -Chimezie_Ogbuji 15:13:47 LeeF: I can look at completeness but not technical content. 15:13:52 topic: function library TF 15:14:21 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:FunctionLibrary#Starting_Points 15:14:25 AxelPolleres: function library TF has had a teleconference with Andy and Lee regarding the starting point. 15:15:01