07:54:02 RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag 07:54:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-irc 07:54:04 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:54:04 Zakim has joined #mediafrag 07:54:06 Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG 07:54:06 ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG(F2F)4:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 07:54:07 Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference 07:54:07 Date: 18 September 2009 07:54:13 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FourthF2FAgenda 07:54:17 Chair: Raphael 07:54:22 Regrets: Erik 07:54:28 Scribe: raphael 07:54:34 Scribenick: raphael 07:54:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 07:56:21 davy has joined #mediafrag 08:00:35 IA_MFWG(F2F)4:00AM has now started 08:00:42 +raphael 08:02:03 +mhausenblas 08:02:31 + +0329331aaaa 08:02:36 Gui has joined #mediafrag 08:03:00 zakim, aaaa is davy 08:03:00 +davy; got it 08:03:17 +Gui 08:04:20 Present: Raphael, Michael, Guillaume, Davy, Silvia, Conrad, Yves 08:04:39 tmichel has joined #mediafrag 08:05:02 franck has joined #mediafrag 08:05:09 +mth 08:05:19 zakim, mth is conrad 08:05:19 +conrad; got it 08:05:46 +tmichel 08:05:51 Present+ tmichel, franck 08:06:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 08:06:32 +FD 08:06:44 zakim, FD is franck 08:06:44 +franck; got it 08:07:37 Zakim, mute me 08:07:37 conrad should now be muted 08:08:14 + +61.2.800.5.aabb 08:08:26 zakim, zzbb is me 08:08:26 sorry, silvia, I do not recognize a party named 'zzbb' 08:08:34 zakim, aabb is me 08:08:34 +silvia; got it 08:08:40 zakim, mute me 08:08:40 silvia should now be muted 08:09:15 Topic: 1. Wrap-up of F2F meeting Day 1 08:09:32 Raphael: a number of emails have been sent this morning 08:09:59 Frank: Jack proposed that we can have profiles 08:10:20 ... it could be reasonable, for clearly clarifying the degree of conformance from the implementations 08:10:33 ... useful for readability 08:10:36 i think having separate definitions for how to handle #, how to handle ? etc. is useful 08:10:41 Zakim, unmute me 08:10:41 conrad should no longer be muted 08:11:04 Conrad: I think this is useful too, but I'm not sure Profiles is the right terminology 08:11:14 ... agree in principle on the separation 08:11:15 I think the difference between # and query is substantial enough to define them separately 08:11:26 Zakim, mute me 08:11:26 conrad should now be muted 08:11:30 +Gui.a 08:11:32 zakim, mute me 08:11:32 Gui was already muted, Gui 08:13:50 Raphael: I try to summarize the good cases, I count 3, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0091.html 08:14:29 ... does everybody agree with this view? 08:14:32 [silence] 08:14:33 +1 08:14:35 +1 08:14:59 +1 08:15:10 +1 08:15:10 Topic: 2. Implementation 08:15:29 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/ImplementationExperiment#NinSuna_platform 08:15:38 Davy: I'm starting with NinSuna 08:15:56 http://schutz.elis.ugent.be:8080/DownloadServlet/fragf2f.mp4 08:16:23 http://schutz.elis.ugent.be:8080/DownloadServlet/fragf2f.mp4?t=2,9&track='mp4_1' 08:16:37 Davy: the above URI is a valid working URI 08:16:43 ... we implement the query parameter 08:17:35 ... the new headers considered by the group are not yet implemented 08:17:45 -davy 08:17:48 ... the plan is to implement this part and consider the hash version 08:18:01 can it resolve fragments with # locally in the user agent? 08:18:31 Zakim, unmute me 08:18:31 conrad should no longer be muted 08:18:35 +davy 08:18:40 Zakim, unmute me 08:18:40 conrad was not muted, conrad 08:18:44 Zakim, mute me 08:18:44 conrad should now be muted 08:19:11 zakim, unmute me 08:19:11 silvia should no longer be muted 08:19:14 zakim, who is here? 08:19:14 On the phone I see raphael, mhausenblas, Gui (muted), conrad (muted), tmichel, franck, silvia, Gui.a (muted), davy 08:19:16 On IRC I see franck, tmichel, Gui, davy, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, conrad, raphael, silvia, trackbot, Yves 08:19:54 zakim, mute me 08:19:54 silvia should now be muted 08:20:39 ok, so all # use in media fragments is still due to be implemented with NinSuna 08:20:43 zakim, unmute me 08:20:43 silvia should no longer be muted 08:20:52 -tmichel 08:21:02 zakim, mute me 08:21:02 silvia should now be muted 08:21:46 -franck 08:21:59 +raphael.a 08:22:18 looks like zakim is not fonctionning well. Will redial 08:22:39 +franck 08:22:59 ? 08:23:10 no 08:23:12 +tmichel 08:23:24 zakim, mute me 08:23:24 silvia was already muted, silvia 08:24:08 Yves, maybe we should ask w3c admin for help? 08:24:10 I redialed the french number and I can hear you again ... 08:24:11 + +33.4.93.00.aacc 08:24:29 zakim, aacc is raphael 08:24:29 +raphael; got it 08:25:19 Raphael: can you say a word about the parsing of the fragment syntax? 08:25:25 Davy: not yet a full parser 08:25:30 ... we are progressing on that 08:25:53 ... implemented in JAVA so I could use Yves's parser 08:26:20 Raphael: can you say a word about the extraction of the sequence and track on server side? 08:26:41 Davy: yes, everything is indexed, so based on the index, we do a bytes range extraction 08:26:46 +franck.a 08:26:55 do you support the query-based temporal fragment requests for both HTTP and RTSP? 08:26:57 ... we create then new mp4 and ogg headers for serving a new resource 08:27:08 ... only copy of existing bytes ranges are involved 08:27:08 davy, can you post an ogg url? 08:27:35 Davy: for the temporal based selection of sequences, we also support rtsp 08:27:48 ... I'm working on a hash-based version for rtsp 08:28:02 http://schutz.elis.ugent.be:8080/DownloadServlet/fragf2f.ogg 08:28:34 could a normal webpage interact with your server? 08:28:45 Raphael: I also think this is a VERY good work :-) 08:29:03 i.e. could somebody else write a client to interact with your server, Davy? 08:29:24 Raphael: Implementation page http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/ImplementationExperiment 08:29:33 for the moment, only query based access is possible 08:29:36 Michael: it would be great to document the implementation issues 08:30:17 Davy: yes it is possible to write a client to interact with our server ... but to the extend of what we process 08:30:24 zakim, unmute me 08:30:24 silvia should no longer be muted 08:30:24 ... in the future, we plan to release an API 08:30:43 ... this API could be used to develop other front ends 08:31:07 ... such as requesting what are the existing tracks available before requesting them 08:31:55 -raphael 08:31:58 Silvia: very good, it is a bit like the URI Template suggested by Yves, that is, asking a server what it is capable to do 08:32:20 Conrad: I think uri templates are great for this 08:32:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 08:33:10 Silvia: I think it is very cool and we should put together a web page for advertising 08:33:20 ... as a proof of interoperability 08:33:37 Michael: I have also an action to investigate how javascript can do that 08:34:07 ... it would be cool also to test existing implementations such as YouTube 08:34:18 Silvia: the problem is that YouTube has not the same syntax 08:34:54 Michael: agree, but will have a look at that, also to improve the test suite 08:35:18 zakim, mute me 08:35:18 silvia should now be muted 08:35:21 Silvia: Davy, is your server publicly accessible? 08:35:28 Davy; yes 08:35:46 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/ImplementationExperiment#MP4Box_as_media_slicing_tool_for_Media_Fragment_Web_servers 08:36:02 Davy: now, talking about the MP4 box, http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/ImplementationExperiment#MP4Box_as_media_slicing_tool_for_Media_Fragment_Web_servers 08:36:20 ... this is a tool useful for Yves 08:36:30 ... the tool does not do any transcoding 08:36:35 fragf2f.mp4#t=3,10&track='1' 08:36:41 ... but can be used to extract tracks and temporal sequence 08:37:01 Michael: btw, this is the -> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-03 current draft of URI templates 08:37:10 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:37:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas 08:37:18 -raphael.a 08:37:22 ... fragf2f.mp4#t=3,10&track='1' will do the extraction 08:37:50 -franck 08:38:03 Raphael: who is developing MP4box ? 08:38:11 Davy: this is an open source project 08:38:20 ... targetted at providing implementations related to MP4 08:38:27 ... very handy for MP4 files 08:38:39 s/targetted/targeted 08:38:42 ... handy for us, since it does NOT any kind of transcoding 08:39:04 ... we have contacts with this project but do not contribute to them directly 08:39:24 Zakim, unmute me 08:39:24 conrad should no longer be muted 08:39:38 Raphael: is this similar to oggchop ? 08:39:39 http://www.xiph.org/oggz/ 08:39:57 oggzchop 08:40:34 Raphael: so good news, we have now libraries for mp4 and ogg files for doing tracks extraction and temporal sequences extraction 08:40:38 ... any comment? 08:40:42 [silence] 08:40:54 zakim, unmute me 08:40:54 silvia should no longer be muted 08:40:56 Zakim, mute me 08:40:56 conrad should now be muted 08:41:04 Silvia: about HTML5 implementation http://new.annodex.net/~silvia/itext/mediafrag.html 08:41:17 http://new.annodex.net/~silvia/itext/mediafrag.html 08:41:52 Silvia: I'm thinking now of changing server and use Davy's server 08:42:00 ... it would be cool to see interoperability 08:42:12 ... it uses the existing capabilities of the browser 08:42:25 ... see my blog post for the technical details 08:42:44 ... Firefox has now implemented remote seeking on ogg file 08:43:02 ... this is not the same thing that when we talk about seeking with ? 08:43:25 ... Firefox makes a good guess of the correct bytes range to address 08:43:51 ... this way, we can simulate the behavior of the hash, just using the capabilities of the web browser 08:44:02 ... this is the purpose of this demo 08:45:23 Michael: great thing, are you willing to create a module for jquery? 08:45:34 ... I would be interested 08:45:48 Silvia: I'm not sure what would go in this pluggin 08:46:15 Michael: I need to look at your code ... and see what can be packaged in a pluggin 08:46:26 ... there are a lot of plugins for jquery out there 08:46:40 ... it would be great for the outreach 08:47:02 Silvia: it is all available as Mozilla license, if you want to investigate 08:47:25 ... I'm not sure I will have time to look at what needs to be done for packaging it in a plugin 08:47:30 ... but feel free to do so 08:47:41 ... it uses oggzchop 08:47:51 ... it is dependent on firefox implementation 08:48:16 zakim, mute me 08:48:16 silvia should now be muted 08:48:29 zakim, unmute me 08:48:29 silvia should no longer be muted 08:48:38 zakim, mute me 08:48:38 silvia should now be muted 08:48:39 ... I think Phillip from Opera was interested in implementing that too, it would be cool 08:48:49 http://svn.annodex.net/itext/ 08:48:55 for source code 08:48:56 Michael: URL of the code ? use github or bitbucket? 08:49:11 zakim, unmute me 08:49:11 silvia should no longer be muted 08:49:19 Michael: another option would be Ubiquity command 08:49:42 ... see http://labs.mozilla.com/ubiquity/ 08:49:43 Silvia: jquery is interesting, as Ubiquity, I just don't have time 08:49:53 zakim, mute me 08:49:53 silvia should now be muted 08:50:17 ACTION-71? 08:50:17 ACTION-71 -- Michael Hausenblas to investigate whether he could have an implementation in Javascript that does the client-side media fragments parsing -- due 2009-10-14 -- OPEN 08:50:17 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/71 08:50:37 zakim, unmute me 08:50:37 silvia should no longer be muted 08:50:45 Michael: I have already my ACTION-71 ... I think I will dig into this and investigate the possibility of having a jquery plugin 08:51:11 Silvia: it might be possible that Safari and Chrome have also this functionality 08:51:16 zakim, mute me 08:51:16 silvia should now be muted 08:51:54 zakim, unmute me 08:51:54 Gui should no longer be muted 08:52:25 Last implementation: Guillaume, about Gstreamer and the python-gst library 08:52:34 can you hear me? 08:52:39 no 08:52:40 alright 08:53:19 Guillaume: I look at Gstreamer and the python library 08:53:36 ... it can be used as a command line, or through API in a programmatic way 08:53:58 ... I will say what I manage to do and don't manage to do 08:54:41 ... it seems that transcoding is always involved? 08:57:12 ... when you create a gstreamer pipeline, I am trying to get the fragment information through to the time in the pipeline where the byte ranges can be extracted without decoding 08:57:25 ... the library interacts with the decoder, and locates the bytes ranges 08:57:59 ... we can ask gstreamer to feed us the raw data 08:58:13 ... however, gstreamer right now won't let me do it without decoding and re-encoding 08:59:58 Raphael: ok, but for example, how do you convert #t=10,20 into a gst.event_new_seek(...) ? 09:00:40 Guillaume: I don't have that yet 09:00:54 ... I was investigating what is possible to do with gstreamer 09:01:16 ... I wanted to know if gstreamer can give me back the bytes that correspond to this interval 09:03:44 Raphael: how do you want to make progress on that? 09:04:13 Guillaume: I post some questions, that need to be answered 09:04:13 The questions that must be further investigated are: 09:04:13 * Which GST elements can handle seek events? 09:04:13 * What unit formats (time ns (nano seconds), frames, bytes, percents, buffers) are supported by each GST elements? 09:04:13 * Can all encapsulation specific demuxers handle time and bytes? 09:04:15 * Can SEEK events be translated higher up in the chain into BYTES on the filesrc SOURCE? Then we could still decode the media, find the actual part of the stream required, make sure a filesrc or uridecodebin in random access can point to the fragment of the media we need, and SINK that MF into a filesink. 09:04:19 Until now I haven't been successful in implementing the GST SEEK events on a variety of media types ; neither directly in C or in Python) with gst.event_new_seek(..) or gst_element_seek(..). 09:05:34 Guillaume: who has experience with gstreamer? 09:05:39 ... Jack ? 09:05:45 Edward Harvey is the right person 09:05:51 Email ? 09:06:10 he knows gstreamer inside out and because he implemented the pitivi editor has come across all the fragmentation issues 09:06:19 http://blogs.gnome.org/edwardrv/ 09:06:24 Silvia, can you provide his email in /me ? 09:06:42 s/Harvey/Hervey/ 09:07:01 Michael: also relevant is http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/09/supporting-facebook-share-and-rdfa-for.html - promoting audiovisual content rather than consuming it in the first place 09:08:05 ACTION-90? 09:08:06 ACTION-90 -- Davy Van Deursen to provide a pointer to Yves to a lib he can use to slice media files -- due 2009-09-16 -- OPEN 09:08:06 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/90 09:08:32 close ACTION-90 09:08:33 ACTION-90 Provide a pointer to Yves to a lib he can use to slice media files closed 09:08:41 The MP4 box is the answer Yves :-) 09:09:31 Zakim, unmute me 09:09:33 conrad should no longer be muted 09:09:46 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/images/9/92/Chop-sections.png 09:09:46 Raphael: there is also an ongoing action to update the grammar checker from Yves, as soon as the syntax evolves 09:09:50 great job guys 09:10:06 Topic: 3. UA - Server communication and headers 09:10:17 ACTION-69? 09:10:17 ACTION-69 -- Conrad Parker to draw a representation of the general structure of a media resource, for streamable formats (H/H' + K + D1 + D2 + D3) -- due 2009-04-24 -- OPEN 09:10:17 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/69 09:10:23 close ACTION-69 09:10:23 ACTION-69 Draw a representation of the general structure of a media resource, for streamable formats (H/H' + K + D1 + D2 + D3) closed 09:10:31 The diagram is at http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/images/9/92/Chop-sections.png 09:10:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 09:12:29 Conrad: explaining the diagram 09:12:50 ... the header packets can change, like the duration 09:13:25 Raphael: re-ordering of the packets ? 09:13:49 Conrad: this is coding-format dependent, in ogg, strict rules that the packets appear in order of time 09:14:02 Silvia: the arrows are not about re-ordering, but about pointing to the last "i-frame" 09:14:47 Raphael: will such a diagram help to explain what is going on in our document? 09:15:01 Conrad: this diagram or a similar one might help yes 09:15:20 it also explains well what I tried to explain yesterday with the retrieval possibilities of a #t=12 query, where the result would start at t=11.85 09:15:35 Michael: we need to complement it with timestamps, and quantitative concrete values 09:15:38 Conrad: yes 09:15:41 s/query/request/ 09:16:27 raphael: can you put the source and png in our cvs ? 09:16:52 ACTION: Yves to provide CVS access to conrad 09:16:53 Created ACTION-111 - Provide CVS access to conrad [on Yves Lafon - due 2009-09-25]. 09:17:16 I can provide a CVS access to conrad 09:17:34 please go ahead then Thierry 09:18:00 Raphael: headers discussion ... 09:19:12 ... I feel we have various proposals on the table 09:19:23 ... regarding the use of the Range headers, or new custom headers 09:19:31 my proposals are for these 3 sets of headers: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/UA_Server_HTTP_Communication#Conrad.27s_proposal 09:19:34 ... what is documented in the current document and what Conrad has proposed 09:19:44 I am not even sure the proposals that we have are alternatives 09:19:57 I think they may be complimentary for the query and the fragment case 09:20:08 time ranges has already been discussed yesterday 09:20:13 somebody definitely needs to compose it all together 09:20:59 Raphael: I volunteer to provide a digest ... anyone else to give it a try ? 09:21:19 Zakim, mute me 09:21:19 conrad should now be muted 09:21:51 ACTION: troncy to propose a digest of Conrad and current's proposal regarding the use of existing and custom headers for the communication UA server 09:21:51 Created ACTION-112 - Propose a digest of Conrad and current's proposal regarding the use of existing and custom headers for the communication UA server [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2009-09-25]. 09:22:27 Topic: 4. Test Cases 09:22:56 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/xhtml1-testcases/rdfa-xhtml1-test-manifest.rdf 09:23:00 Michael: quick update ... I know it is actually quite painful to create the final test cases 09:23:16 ... i wanted to automatized that 09:23:37 http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/ 09:23:40 ... because it is not funny to generate the rdf files _manually_ from the wiki 09:23:55 ... Corrib is my solution: http://ld2sd.deri.org/corrib/ 09:24:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 09:25:29 ... if you click on the dashboard, you can see the tags and set some filters on the tags 09:26:38 ... first criteria would be the dimensions considered, and then the second criteria, the nature of the response (defined, undefined, etc.) 09:26:59 ... the filter works as string match on the whole table currently 09:27:14 ACTION-108? 09:27:14 ACTION-108 -- Michael Hausenblas to add the missing test cases in corrib -- due 2009-09-16 -- OPEN 09:27:14 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/108 09:27:30 ACTION-93? 09:27:30 ACTION-93 -- Michael Hausenblas to revisit the TC and see which are effected by the temporal-optional-comma-decision -- due 2009-07-29 -- OPEN 09:27:30 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/93 09:28:20 Raphael: at least identified the TC impacted ... this is the action-93 09:28:29 s/identified/identify 09:28:49 Michael: any questions ? is this what you expect to have ? 09:29:01 ... I will of course use it, I'm interested in feedback, what is missing ? 09:29:16 jackjansen has joined #mediafrag 09:29:17 I think we need to get the existing test cases into it first and then we can see what we are still missing 09:29:27 I think it looks very promising 09:29:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael 09:29:31 thanks ;) 09:30:05 Michael: there is also a atom feed if you want to subscribe :-) 09:31:54 Michael: corrib works on product, so it can deal with the various version of MF ... 1st draft, 2nd draft, etc. 09:32:06 Raphael: amazing feature :-) 09:32:41 Hi everyone! (count on me being flakey: busy here) 09:33:06 Topic: 4. Next steps 09:33:40 Accessible media workshop: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0093.html 09:33:55 Raphael: who will make TPAC ? 09:34:08 TPAC is in Santa Clara, CA, 2-6/11 09:34:29 i can't be there then 09:34:33 Erik will go to TPAC 09:34:54 Davy: I might go there too if necessary 09:36:07 Raphael: should we prepare something for the attendees in order to discuss with the groups there ? 09:36:19 ... we will have a 2nd WD published 09:36:28 it would be good to discuss in HTML5 WG 09:36:38 I will probably be at TPAC 09:37:07 Raphael: target is to publish a 2nd WD at the end of the month 09:37:19 ... we have a number of actions in the tracker 09:37:26 ... how much more planning can we do 09:37:38 Michael: your action is important regarding the syntax / header part 09:37:47 ... the other actions are clarification 09:38:10 If within the next 2-3 weeks we can get everything watertight for temporal media fragments, I think that would be great progress 09:38:18 yay 09:38:21 +1 09:38:26 +1 09:38:30 +1 09:38:42 Motto: work hard to make it 09:39:37 Question: next meeting ? 09:40:20 keep going with the weekly meetings 09:40:31 see how far we get by the end of the year 09:41:27 Raphael: has a big concern about the turnout for every weekly meeting 09:41:36 zakim, unmute me 09:41:36 Gui was not muted, Gui 09:41:39 how about a vote page with times like we did for this f2f time? 09:41:44 ... is it a problem of the hour at which it is taking place? 09:41:58 Zakim, unmute me 09:41:58 conrad should no longer be muted 09:43:15 Proposal for changing telecon time: 09:43:18 Zakim, mute me 09:43:19 conrad should now be muted 09:43:24 Wednesday, 09:00 AM TC 09:43:31 ok 09:43:50 3 hours earlier Silvia 09:44:09 +1 09:44:11 ok - should work for me 09:44:59 Raphael: I meant, 09:00 AM UTC 09:45:02 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=17&month=09&year=2009&hour=09&min=0&sec=0&p1=0 09:45:04 +1 09:45:07 should check if Yves can make it 09:45:19 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=15&month=09&year=2009&hour=09&min=0&sec=0&p1=0 09:45:35 Need to check with Yves, and Jack 09:45:37 +1 09:45:42 +1 09:45:50 +! 09:45:51 +1 09:45:51 +1 09:46:11 I will ask Yves and Jack 09:46:22 Topic: 5. AOB 09:46:47 People wants to party 09:47:39 We need to publish in 3 weeks time max 09:48:16