14:49:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:49:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc
14:49:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:49:34 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:49:34 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:42 <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
14:49:46 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
14:49:55 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:50:05 <msporny> Chain: Ben_Adida
14:50:16 <msporny> s/Chain/Chair/
14:50:41 <msporny> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html
14:51:14 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0147.html
14:51:21 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny
14:55:11 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:55:16 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:55:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:55:55 <msporny> Present+ Steven_Pemberton, Ivan_Herman
15:00:00 <msporny> zakim, code?
15:00:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), msporny
15:01:16 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:01:23 <Zakim> +??P11
15:01:28 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P11
15:01:28 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:01:46 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:01:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:01:47 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:02:10 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:02:10 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:02:12 <Zakim> +Steven
15:03:14 <Steven> zakim, who is making noise
15:03:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', Steven
15:03:21 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy
15:03:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', Steven
15:03:23 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:03:31 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
15:03:42 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: msporny (12%), Steven (100%)
15:05:27 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:05:53 <msporny> Present+ Ben_Adida
15:06:05 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:06:20 <Zakim> +McCarron
15:06:27 <msporny> Present+ Shane_McCarron
15:07:02 <msporny> Topic: Action Items
15:08:44 <benadida> manu: yes, call at 12pm eastern on HTML and RDFa FPWD
15:10:35 <msporny> manu: I'll be on that call
15:10:45 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
15:10:54 <msporny> -- done
15:10:56 <benadida> --> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript
15:12:26 <msporny> ben: it will work in HTML5, but not XHTML5
15:13:03 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support
15:13:23 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force" email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
15:13:31 <msporny> -- done
15:13:39 <msporny> ben: The issue may not be done.
15:14:04 <msporny> ben: This is about XMLLiteral c14n -- is it RDFa's job or the SPARQL processors job?
15:14:11 <ivan> q+
15:14:14 <msporny> ack ivan
15:14:26 <msporny> ivan: Let's try to close this issue.
15:14:34 <msporny> ivan: SPARQL spec doesn't say that it does c14n
15:15:02 <msporny> ivan: what this boils down to is that the Test Cases, the SPARQL code that we use should have the canonicalized XML in it.
15:15:24 <msporny> ivan: the test cases are more liberal than they should be when it comes to c14n
15:16:30 <msporny> manu: I don't know if the spec is correct.
15:16:54 <msporny> ivan: Canonical XML states that we should insert the namespaces that are used in the literal, and nothing more.
15:17:11 <msporny> manu: We might give a different impression to implementers
15:17:40 <msporny> ivan: We might want to clarify things as well in a future editors spec.
15:18:30 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace preservation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:18:33 <msporny> -- done
15:19:05 <benadida> --> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0158.html
15:20:34 <msporny> manu: The test case issues are outlined in that e-mail
15:21:28 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:21:37 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:21:37 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:22:20 <Zakim> + +0208761aaaa
15:22:25 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
15:22:25 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:22:37 <msporny> manu: the other issue is the c14n vs. proper XMLLiteral RDFa preservation.
15:22:53 <msporny> ben: Yes, there is an issue here and the issue is slightly larger than RDFa.
15:24:17 <msporny> ivan: The SPARQL group are considering an official errata for RDF to address this issue.
15:24:43 <msporny> ivan: This is an issue that came about years ago, but we need to deal with it.
15:26:30 <msporny> ben: So, what is the path forward.
15:27:06 <benadida> http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter
15:27:14 <msporny> manu: Accept c14n XMLLiteral definition and accept that we won't be able to preserve namespaces for RDFa in XMLLiterals
15:27:18 <ivan> q+
15:27:26 <msporny> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:28:00 <msporny> -- done
15:28:14 <msporny> ack ivan
15:28:57 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss schedule
15:29:01 <msporny> ivan: Let's put the charter off for 6-8 weeks. We're not under huge pressure to do that.
15:29:20 <msporny> ben: I don't think we should submit the charter now, but we shouldn't delay it.
15:29:28 <msporny> q+
15:29:36 <msporny> ack shane
15:29:36 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss schedule
15:30:15 <msporny> shane: I'm the one who pushed schedule because these things take time.
15:30:43 <msporny> ivan: If we do this in November, this shouldn't be an issue.
15:31:05 <benadida> ack manu
15:31:16 <ivan> q+
15:31:22 <ivan> ack msporny
15:31:38 <benadida> msporny: sam ruby and doug schepers have offered to host an RDFa TF in HTML and SVG WGs.
15:33:31 <benadida> ben: I'm not convinced that this is a good idea yet.
15:33:34 <benadida> ack ivan
15:33:39 <msporny> ivan: A Task Force between two working groups work well when two groups are friendly with each other.
15:33:52 <msporny> ivan: It's also more administration overhead.
15:34:10 <msporny> ivan: I'd prefer the RDFa Core work to stay in SWD.
15:34:17 <markbirbeck> Should also add that it works when the two groups are complementary to each other.
15:34:21 <msporny> ivan: There are things that we may plan to do that have nothing to do with HTML.
15:35:19 <markbirbeck> Which is not the case here.
15:36:31 <msporny> ben: One thing we should try to steer clear of anything that doesn't follow W3C process.
15:36:59 <msporny> ben: We should be collaborating with HTML WG.
15:37:14 <msporny> ben: We should strive to be true to W3C process.
15:38:05 <msporny> ivan: Let's wait and see how the HTML+RDFa FPWD works out. If it works, then that would be best.
15:38:48 <msporny> Topic: ISSUE-236: Clarify the meaning of "ignore"
15:39:09 <msporny> ben: We depend on rel with a bad value and the absence of rel as being different.
15:39:20 <msporny> ben: We do not do the same for @typeof.
15:40:31 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:41:31 <msporny> Ivan can you scribe?
15:41:38 <msporny> I can clean up the minutes afterwards
15:41:46 <ivan> scribenick: ivan
15:42:18 <ivan> mark: when I made all the changes to cleanup curie processing, then I might have missed this
15:42:26 <ivan> shane: wait...
15:43:57 <ivan> mark: I think the discussion on the list is pretty good
15:44:21 <ivan> shane: ben said rel="" and rel="rubbish" is not the same thing
15:44:41 <ivan> mark: if I completely remove rel from an element, then there is no hanging stuff kick in
15:44:51 <ivan> ... if there is a rel, then the mechanism does kick in
15:45:02 <ivan> shane: the real issue is with datatypes
15:45:09 <ivan> ... and with typeof
15:45:27 <ivan> ... typeof does not have a special behaviour for typeof=""
15:45:52 <ivan> mark: the issue does originate from the datatype handling
15:46:23 <ivan> ... during the course of discussion I discovered that typeof does not behave like we meant it
15:46:45 <ivan> ... there are two issues: (1) datatypes and (2) typeof
15:46:52 <ivan> shane: our intent is clear
15:47:08 <ivan> ... and all implementations that passed the tests did it like we intended
15:47:30 <ivan> ... we can put the two phrases into the places where it needs it then we are done
15:48:03 <ivan> manu: do we feel that we have a clear text that we can put in? Did we check that against the test cases?
15:48:15 <ivan> ... there might have to add some new test cases
15:48:29 <ivan> ... i do not know what my parser would do...
15:48:46 <ivan> mark: the key thing is that it creates a b node
15:48:57 <ivan> shane: the final piece here is where jenni is incorrect
15:49:28 <ivan> ... if there is typeof, it generates a bnode, but that one is not used as a subject of another triple
15:49:35 <markbirbeck> s/jenni/jeni/
15:50:19 <ivan> mark: but it can complete hanging triples
15:50:35 <ShaneM> Jeni says in an email:
15:50:35 <ShaneM> In the case of 
15:50:35 <ShaneM> <p xmlns:ex="http://example.org/" about="http://example.com/" rel="ex:rel3"> 
15:50:35 <ShaneM>    <span property="bogus:bogus" content="Content 3"> 
15:50:35 <ShaneM>      <span about="http://example.net/">Test 3</span> 
15:50:36 <ShaneM>    </span> 
15:50:38 <ShaneM>  </p> 
15:50:41 <ShaneM> by the same argument, we should create: 
15:50:42 <ShaneM> Default graph: 
15:50:44 <ShaneM>   <http://example.com/> <http://example.org/rel3> _:a . 
15:50:46 <ShaneM> Graph A: 
15:50:48 <ShaneM>   _:a bogus:bogus "Content 3" . 
15:51:00 <ivan> mark: the key thing is to preserve the structure, the hierarchy, even if the gaps are not filled in
15:51:11 <ivan> shane: what I pasted in is the bit where she is wrong
15:51:43 <ivan> mark: I will double check that
15:52:35 <ivan> mark: the mere presence the property will complete the hanging triple
15:52:49 <ivan> ... so what she says is correct
15:53:40 <ivan> shane: I think that the spec says explicitly that the bnode should be used only if it is used down the line
15:54:29 <ivan> mark: the spec says that graph A may be generated but it is not required
15:54:41 <ivan> ... the question is whether the first triple should be generated
15:54:57 <ivan> ... ie whether the hanging triple should be completed
15:55:14 <ivan> shane: I do not feel this is what the spec says
15:55:34 <msporny> Ivan could you continue chairing.
15:55:56 <ivan> mark: but there may be a mistake; the whole point of the default graph idea is to make such issues valid
15:56:30 <ivan> mark: maybe people can have a read of the spec, I think that triple should be generated
15:56:48 <ivan> ... very end of step 4 with the skip element flag
15:56:48 <msporny> msporny has joined #rdfa
15:56:55 <ivan> ... and that is reused at point 10
15:57:18 <ivan> ... maybe people should look at it with their own implementation
15:57:24 <ivan> manu: meeting adjurned
15:57:29 <Zakim> -McCarron
15:57:31 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
15:57:32 <Zakim> -msporny
15:57:33 <Zakim> -Steven
15:57:42 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:57:43 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
15:57:44 <Zakim> Attendees were msporny, Ivan, Steven, Ben_Adida, McCarron, +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck
15:57:46 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html ivan
15:58:07 <msporny> msporny has joined #rdfa
15:58:15 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
16:08:02 <ivan> manu, I cleaned up the minutes
16:08:06 <ivan> it was a quicky...
16:14:25 <msporny> ok, thanks Ivan :)
17:11:49 <msporny> zakim, bye
17:11:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:11:51 <msporny> rrsagent, bye
17:11:51 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:11:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [1]
17:11:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-45
17:11:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support [2]
17:11:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc#T15-13-03
17:11:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force" email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [3]
17:11:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc#T15-13-23
17:11:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace preservation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [4]
17:11:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc#T15-18-30
17:11:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [5]
17:11:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc#T15-27-26