15:02:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
15:02:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-hcls-irc
15:02:55 <ericP> Zakim, this is hcls
15:02:55 <Zakim> hcls matches both SW_HCLS(TransMed)11:00AM and SW_HCLS()11:00AM, ericP
15:03:04 <ericP> Zakim, this is sw_hcls
15:03:04 <Zakim> sw_hcls matches both SW_HCLS(TransMed)11:00AM and SW_HCLS()11:00AM, ericP
15:03:16 <ericP> uh oh
15:03:44 <ericP> Zakim, this is SW_HCLS()
15:03:44 <Zakim> ok, ericP; that matches SW_HCLS()11:00AM
15:03:51 <Zakim> + +1.617.993.aabb
15:03:54 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mom
15:03:54 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
15:03:56 <Zakim> +EricP
15:04:30 <matthias_samwald1> Linked Data Camp Vienna (Nov 30. - Dec 1.): http://www.meetup.com/Linked-Data-Camp/
15:04:42 <ericP> Zakim, please dial sandro 
15:04:42 <Zakim> I am sorry, ericP; I do not know a number for sandro
15:04:44 <Susie> Sandro - are you here?
15:04:48 <jluciano> jluciano has joined #hcls
15:05:19 <sandro> yes, Susie 
15:05:32 <Susie> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:05:32 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ??P2
15:05:46 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:05:55 <Susie> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:05:55 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricP
15:06:05 <jluciano> jluciano has joined #hcls
15:06:07 <ericP> scibenick: ericP
15:06:15 <ericP> meeting: HCLS
15:06:48 <Zakim> +Helen_Chen
15:07:05 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif
15:07:16 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
15:07:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.781.839.aaaa, Susie, ??P2, +1.617.993.aabb, EricP, Sandro, Helen_Chen
15:07:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see jluciano, RRSAgent, Julia_Kozlovsky, Susie, matthias_samwald1, sandro, Zakim, Cloud, ericP
15:08:41 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLSIG/Meetings/2009-09-17_Conference_Call
15:09:02 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif/Overview.html#(2)
15:09:11 <ericP> topic: Rule Interchange Format [Sandro Hawke]
15:09:52 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif Rule Interchange Format (RIF)
15:10:26 <ericP> [slide 2: So Many Rules Systems]
15:12:28 <ericP> [slide 4: Business Rules Perspective]
15:12:55 <ericP> sandro: while vendors may like customer lock-in, customers really don't
15:13:23 <ericP> ... RIF good for bridging between rules systems
15:14:49 <ericP> [slide 6: The Plan]
15:16:14 <ericP> sandro: mode of use is that someone using iLog menu-selects save-as-rif
15:16:21 <bbalsa> bbalsa has joined #HCLS
15:16:24 <ericP> ... not expected to be edited by humans
15:17:13 <ericP> there's a basic bifercation between if-then rules and 1st-order-logic rules
15:17:24 <ericP> ... most extensions work with one or the other
15:18:01 <ericP> [slide 8: The people evolved]
15:19:25 <ericP> joanne: re: submissions (line 2), which emerged?
15:19:55 <ericP> sandro: didn't really follow any of them. created a new "language"
15:20:33 <ericP> ... some have characterized the 1st year as "no one would let us adopt someone else's design"
15:21:35 <ericP> sandro: we got most rules vendors/orgs to join
15:23:06 <ericP> ... OMG has a different product. they produce a UML diagram (simplified view)
15:23:21 <ericP> ... the entire OMG active group is in our WG
15:24:12 <ericP> [slide 10: RIF: XML Syntax for Rules]
15:24:33 <ericP> sandro: you could consider a group a rule set
15:24:51 <ericP> ... this XML is fully striped (a la RDF)
15:25:53 <ericP> ... there are a few places (e.g. datatypes on leaves) where RIF isn't parsable as RDF/XML
15:26:33 <ericP> ... however a trivial XSLT could translate RIF to RDF (unchecked assertion)
15:30:36 <ericP> sandro: presentation syntax favors prolog as it uses the form  THEN := AND (IF 1) (IF 2)
15:32:11 <ericP> sandro: (re: slide 11 BLD Presentation Syntax), this is not a presentation *calleed* BLD, but the presentation syntax used in the BLD document
15:32:48 <ericP> ... all three of these examples in the talk are in BLD
15:33:02 <ericP> ... if we added e.g. negation we'd be in a different dialect
15:33:27 <matthias_samwald> matthias_samwald has joined #hcls
15:33:35 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/0903-rif/Overview.html#(13)
15:33:38 <ericP> [slide 13: A Family of Dialects]
15:33:55 <Zakim> -Helen_Chen
15:34:02 <Zakim> +??P7
15:34:13 <Zakim> -??P2
15:34:23 <matthias_samwald> Zakim, ??P7 im matthias_samwald
15:34:23 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P7 im matthias_samwald', matthias_samwald
15:34:26 <ericP> Julia_Kozlovsky: slide 11 says "reject". i would have thought that would be another dialect
15:34:41 <matthias_samwald> Zakim, ??P7 is matthias_samwald
15:34:41 <Zakim> +matthias_samwald; got it
15:34:44 <ericP> sandro: that's an assertion of rejection
15:36:08 <ericP> s/slide 11 says/slides 11 and 12 say/
15:37:24 <ericP> sandro: the "reject" assertion implies that the person is thinking of this as production rules, but renaming to "to-be-rejected" would clarify that just a conclusion
15:37:48 <ericP> [slide 14: Use Case: Vocabulary Mapping]
15:38:00 <ericP> sandro: voila a set of FOAF rules
15:38:12 <ericP> ... FOAF has three ways to represent names
15:38:29 <ericP> ... you can expliut all three by adding rules
15:39:14 <ericP> ... RIF can do things like string-join
15:40:43 <ericP> sandro: you can assert data in one vocab, add data in another vocab, and query in a third vocab
15:41:10 <ericP> ... note that these mapping use cases where simple enough to be easily expressed in XPath functions
15:41:27 <ericP> Julia_Kozlovsky: what would run these rules in real life?
15:41:43 <ericP> sandro: if you wrote them in XML, how would you mix them into your SPARQL system?
15:41:52 <ericP> ... the standard doesn't speak to that much
15:41:57 <ericP> ... we talk about importing
15:42:23 <ericP> ... would expect that at the UI level. user says "here's the data, here are the rules, here is my query"
15:44:23 <ericP> Julia_Kozlovsky: looks great in theory, but who is doing this?
15:44:57 <ericP> ericP: a vendor has to promise RIF rules and SPARQL query
15:45:11 <ericP> sandro: dave reynolds will probably implement RIF in Jena
15:45:23 <ericP> ... chimezie intends to implement it
15:45:33 <ericP> ... iLog also promised
15:45:58 <ericP> ... Oracle has made no promise about how long it will take to filter over to the database side
15:46:22 <ericP> ... we haven't formally [W3C process] said that RIF is ready to impelement
15:46:38 <ericP> Julia_Kozlovsky: thanks. would good to get a picture of the different layers
15:47:58 <ericP> sandro: e.g. cwm doesn't have native RDFS/OWL support, but you can write a lot of OWL rules like this [slide 15]
15:48:48 <ericP> ... OWLRL is a fragement which is entirely expressible in Rules
15:49:16 <ericP> ... effectively expressible in RIF Core, module some nuances
15:51:09 <ericP> ericP: if property p has range (objects are of type) c, and some x has a p of y, then that y is of type c
15:51:45 <sandro> p == hasType, c=DomesticAnimal
15:52:45 <ericP> sandro: e.g. :hasPet rdfs:range :domesticAnimal AND :Sandro :hasPet :Fido THEN :Fido rdf:type :domesticAnimal
15:53:06 <ericP> [sldie 16: Syntactic Features]
15:53:20 <sandro> p(x,y,z)
15:54:21 <sandro>    { sandro hasPet fido }
15:54:33 <sandro>      triple( sandro, hasPet, fido )
15:54:42 <sandro>    hasPat(sandro, fido)    NO
15:55:14 <sandro> jluciano, ping
15:56:11 <jluciano> pong (it (my IRC window) was under the slides!)  Thanks!
15:57:19 <ericP> sandro: most of XPath functions plus e.g. string2uri
15:57:52 <ericP> ... hope to enter CR soon, spec stable, but not a lot of impelementations
15:58:06 <ericP> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:58:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-hcls-minutes.html ericP
15:58:18 <ericP> RRSAgent, please make log world-visible
15:58:45 <Zakim> -Susie
15:58:49 <Zakim> - +1.617.993.aabb
15:58:50 <Zakim> - +1.781.839.aaaa
15:59:36 <jluciano> Sandro, that was great. Thank you!
16:00:04 <matthias_samwald> matthias_samwald has left #hcls
16:00:11 <Zakim> -matthias_samwald
16:02:57 <ericP> \/win go 290
16:43:19 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:43:32 <Zakim> -EricP
16:43:33 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended
16:43:34 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.781.839.aaaa, Susie, +1.617.993.aabb, EricP, Sandro, Helen_Chen, matthias_samwald
17:05:48 <bbalsa> bbalsa has left #HCLS