IRC log of ws-ra on 2009-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:29:14 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
19:29:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:29:16 [Zakim]
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19:29:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WSRA
19:29:18 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM already started
19:29:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
19:29:19 [trackbot]
Date: 15 September 2009
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+ +1.703.860.aabb
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19:30:58 [gpilz]
I'll drown myself tonight in sangria, made with slice-up fruit and cheap marsala
19:31:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.908.696.aacc
19:31:28 [Zakim]
19:31:38 [Zakim]
19:31:59 [Zakim]
19:32:17 [li]
zakim, aacc is li
19:32:17 [Zakim]
+li; got it
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19:32:32 [Ram]
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19:34:23 [Bob]
scribenick Katy
19:34:25 [Yves]
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19:34:30 [Bob]
scribenick: Katy
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19:35:09 [Katy]
TOPIC: Approval of agenda, approved
19:35:28 [Katy]
TOPIC: Approval of minutes: no comments, approved
19:35:56 [Katy]
TOPIC: F2F in Husley logistics
19:36:09 [Katy]
Chair: Deadline tonight
19:36:30 [Katy]
TOPIC: F2F in November
19:36:58 [Katy]
Chair: considering schedule and deadline we would probably benefit for this.
19:37:00 [asir]
q+ to ask a question about Hursley F2F (when appropriate
19:37:18 [Katy]
... Follwo tech plenary start of November
19:37:49 [Katy]
... recommend registering by 31st Sept for early bird deadline. Also sign up quick for hotels
19:37:55 [Yves]
19:37:58 [Bob]
ack asir
19:37:58 [Zakim]
asir, you wanted to ask a question about Hursley F2F (when appropriate
19:38:29 [Katy]
Asir: Do we have enough at the F2F to do business
19:38:52 [Katy]
Chair: Yes, 10 (with phone attendee) and possibly some who have not answered on ballot
19:39:39 [Katy]
TOPIC: Snapshot review of September 2nd docs
19:39:47 [dug]
19:39:56 [dug]
19:40:06 [Bob]
ack dug
19:41:19 [Katy]
Doug: 2nd comment - talks about missing space can't locate the problem, sounds like it's the diffs tool
19:42:07 [Katy]
Doug: Phrase of 3rd comment.
19:42:09 [Katy]
Valid Infoset for this specification are the one serializable in XML 1.0, hence the use of XML 1.0.
19:42:38 [Katy]
Agreed should be 'is' rather than 'are'.
19:43:00 [Katy]
Chair: Have all issues that are incorporated in Sept 2nd review closable?
19:43:15 [Katy]
... no comment so we will accept them as closed
19:43:40 [asir]
q+ to ask a question
19:43:49 [Katy]
... Hearing no objection, we shall publish these as heartbeat Working draft
19:44:28 [Katy]
Asir: Publication in transfer specification has a dangling reference
19:45:03 [Katy]
... to fragment
19:45:45 [Bob]
ack asir
19:45:45 [Zakim]
asir, you wanted to ask a question
19:45:45 [Katy]
Chair: We haven't updated other references and prior snapshots have included references to other specs
19:46:21 [Katy]
Asir: There are 2 references (one in middle and one in end). One in middle refers to dialeect uri
19:46:40 [Katy]
Chair: Does anyone have any objection to us publishing with these links still there?
19:47:34 [Katy]
Yves: We can link to the editors' copy if we want. If the link is auto gen'd to be part of the multi doc publication then we may need to do something else
19:47:55 [Katy]
Asir: That's fine if we can fix with pub rules
19:48:09 [Katy]
Chair: No objections
19:48:30 [Katy]
RESOLUTION: Go ahead with heartbeat publications
19:49:08 [dug]
wait? fruitful??? I thought it was a boondoggle!
19:49:16 [asir]
19:49:16 [Katy]
TOPIC: Action item review
19:49:30 [Bob]
ack asir
19:50:01 [Katy]
Chair: do we have agreement for folk to produce produce action items in time for F2F so F2F is fruitful
19:50:32 [Katy]
Asir: There is only one policy assertion action item open. Should we have more?
19:51:02 [Katy]
Chair: The intention was to base other policy issues on 6403 - that was going to be a template
19:51:22 [Katy]
Asir: Could Doug and I work on the others as well prior to the F2F?
19:51:37 [Katy]
Doug: Yes, so long as we get the template one in place
19:52:02 [Katy]
Chair: Perhaps we could look at 6403 during next week's meeting
19:52:20 [Zakim]
19:53:01 [Katy]
ACTION: Asir and Doug to aim to get 6403 proposal for next week's meet as template for other policy
19:53:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-101 - And Doug to aim to get 6403 proposal for next week's meet as template for other policy [on Asir Vedamuthu - due 2009-09-22].
19:53:44 [Katy]
Whoops - I forgot realise that would actually create another action - sorry Asir and Doug!
19:54:01 [asir]
That's fine - double reminder :-)
19:54:17 [Katy]
TOPIC: Initial draft of WS-Frag
19:56:08 [Katy]
Ram: I would like to consider dropping the WS-Frag spec and merging RT towards Frag?
19:56:37 [dug]
something == an apple pie
19:56:44 [dug]
with whip cream
19:56:48 [dug]
or ice cream
19:57:03 [Bob]
and cheese
19:57:39 [Katy]
Ram: Reference to fragment goes away and fragment dialect is replaced by something similar in RT spec
19:59:04 [Katy]
Doug: This is more of a structural decision rather than semantics. (i.e. should frag be part of RT)
19:59:59 [Katy]
Chair: This has been ongoing discussion since Raliegh F2F. It is likely that some of the RT spec may come under discussion (based on issues)
20:00:09 [Katy]
... we may be left with just Frag
20:00:48 [Katy]
Chair: ... We could simply say, is there anything in the RT spec that we need to keep if Frag was in place
20:01:02 [Katy]
Doug: I would like one more week for this decision
20:01:33 [Katy]
Chair: Next week is the deadline before RT issues are addressed
20:01:44 [Katy]
Ram: OK with me too
20:04:18 [Katy]
TOPIC: New issues
20:04:53 [Katy]
ACTION: Katy to create new proposal for 7553
20:04:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-102 - Create new proposal for 7553 [on Katy Warr - due 2009-09-22].
20:05:01 [Katy]
RESOLUTION: 7553 opened
20:06:01 [Ram]
20:06:24 [Katy]
RESOLUTION: 7554 opened
20:06:52 [gpilz]
20:07:09 [Bob]
ack ram
20:07:13 [Bob]
ack gp
20:08:42 [li]
20:08:53 [Katy]
Gil: It should be clear to the unsubscriber, you should receive invalid subscription fault but during unsubscribe you should receive this unsubscribe fault
20:08:56 [Bob]
ack li
20:09:08 [Katy]
... in order to indicate that the subscription is still active
20:10:12 [Katy]
ACTION: Katy to create proposal for 7554 that considers 7553
20:10:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-103 - Create proposal for 7554 that considers 7553 [on Katy Warr - due 2009-09-22].
20:10:40 [Katy]
Issue 7586
20:11:36 [Katy]
Gil: It is overly complex to have xs:duration and xs:datetime for subscriptions
20:11:57 [Katy]
RESOLUTION: 7586 is opened
20:12:53 [Katy]
Chair: Is this predecessor to 7478
20:13:11 [Katy]
Gil: They are kindof separate. It has an existing proposal
20:14:07 [Katy]
Chair: Could you provide a link to that proposal in bugzilla for this issue?
20:14:12 [Katy]
Gil: yes will do
20:14:58 [Katy]
RESOLUTION: 7587 opened
20:15:15 [Katy]
RESOLUTION: 7588 opened
20:15:30 [Katy]
20:16:41 [Katy]
RESOLUTION: 7589 opened
20:16:59 [asir]
20:17:26 [Bob]
ack asir
20:17:51 [Katy]
ACTION: Gil to produce proposal for 7589
20:17:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Gil
20:18:02 [Katy]
ACTION: GIlbert to produce proposal for 7589
20:18:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-104 - Produce proposal for 7589 [on Gilbert Pilz - due 2009-09-22].
20:18:30 [Katy]
Asir: When do we stop new issues coming in
20:18:41 [dug]
20:18:57 [Katy]
Chair: After Last call draft, if we make substantive changes, it drops back to last call
20:19:19 [Bob]
ack dug
20:19:24 [Katy]
... so I have no problem with new issues but substantive changes will drop us back
20:20:01 [Katy]
Doug: I agree that we need to close issues down but now is the time to step through the specs in detail and notice issues
20:20:15 [Katy]
... especially as we have spent more time on some specs than others
20:20:47 [Katy]
Chair: If you have any substantive issues against RT, open them now
20:20:59 [Katy]
... as don't know the frag direction
20:21:05 [Katy]
TOPIC: Issue 7426 IRI or URI
20:21:54 [Ram]
Revision to RFC 3987 that is in progress at IETF:
20:22:03 [Katy]
Yves: Other specs support IRI, we should too. Or we should state that each time we use 'URI' we actually mean 'IRI'
20:22:16 [Bob]
20:22:17 [Ram]
Just want to draw the attention of this WG to the work on the revision to RFC 3987.
20:22:25 [Katy]
Doug: This is basically a global replace?
20:22:28 [Ram]
20:22:31 [Katy]
Yves: Yes
20:22:34 [Bob]
ack ram
20:22:57 [Katy]
Ram: Fine with Yves suggestion.
20:23:31 [Katy]
... but want to point out that there is a revision being worked upon (3987). This does not change the discussion
20:23:45 [Katy]
... I would just like to draw people's attention to this
20:24:13 [Katy]
Chair: Is there a subsection that we should be pointing to?
20:24:16 [Yves] section 5
20:24:29 [Yves]
5.3.1. Simple String Comparison . . . . . . . . . . . . 23
20:24:49 [Katy]
... We need to be aware of code set and representation and that IRI is intended to support many languages
20:26:35 [Katy]
... but simple string comparison is key here. We are saying that the 5.3.1 comparison may cause a false negative comparison
20:27:03 [Katy]
... so a comparison would be a code point by code point comparison to check for equivalence
20:27:15 [Katy]
... Are folks still ok with this resolution?
20:27:59 [Katy]
Asir: Previous specs did not do a global replace. For example, namespace must stay as URI
20:28:09 [Katy]
... so we need to be careful
20:28:44 [Katy]
Yves: In 2003 namespaces were not IRI enabled so back then we needed to be careful about namespaces being URI rather than IRI
20:29:10 [Katy]
... but 2006 recommendation IRI-enables namespaces
20:29:36 [Katy]
Asir: but 2006 and 6 has other issues such as xml11
20:29:49 [Katy]
Chair: Need a bit more work on this
20:30:23 [gpilz]
20:30:34 [Bob]
acl gp
20:30:39 [Bob]
ack gp
20:30:47 [Katy]
... Yves, Doug and Asir discuss on this on public mailing list to get a proposal ready for next week
20:30:52 [Zakim]
- +
20:31:15 [Katy]
Gil: I am concerned about the test effort for this
20:31:36 [Zakim]
+ +
20:33:03 [Katy]
TOPIC: Issue 6568
20:33:59 [Katy]
Ram: I have sent a proposal to address the problems with the references in the group of proposals relating to references
20:34:05 [Ram]
Proposed resolution:
20:34:07 [Ram]
Proposed resolution:
20:34:14 [Bob]
and issues 6569, 6570, 6571, and 6572
20:35:32 [Katy]
Ram: I have gone through each of references and 1) make them point to the latest standards 2) decided whether the references are normative or not
20:36:48 [Katy]
Chair: Can we use the technique for citing referencs in xslt 2
20:37:09 [dug]
yves - i'm getting blocked again
20:37:39 [dug]
20:38:01 [Yves]
20:38:58 [dug]
any chance you could fix it (again) ?
20:39:29 [Yves]
done ;)
20:39:40 [asir]
here is an example
20:39:40 [asir]
20:39:40 [asir]
Extensible Markup Language (XML) 1.0 (Fourth Edition), T. Bray, J. Paoli, E. Maler, C. M. Sperberg-McQueen, F. Yergeau, Editors. World Wide Web Consortium, 16 August 2006, edited in place 29 September 2006. This edition of the XML 1.0 Recommendation is The latest edition of XML 1.0 is available at
20:40:44 [Katy]
Doug: Do we want to point to the lastest or the dated version
20:41:18 [Katy]
Chair: would prefer that we link to a dated version rather than one that may not be yet written
20:43:12 [Zakim]
20:45:29 [Katy]
RESOLUTION: Above issues 6568/69/70/71/72 accepted based on proposals from Ram. Dated version references and style guide here for editors
20:45:29 [asir]
Bob said - s/Non-normative References/Informative References/g
20:46:19 [dug]
blocked again!
20:46:36 [Yves]
now on two machine!
20:49:19 [Katy]
TOPIC: 7486 Confusion regarding optional Put elements
20:49:44 [Katy]
RESOLTION: Proposal for 7486 accepted and 7486 is resolved
20:49:56 [Katy]
TOPIC: Issue-7478
20:50:06 [Bob]
20:52:13 [Ram]
20:52:27 [Bob]
ack ram
20:53:56 [Katy]
Ram: Assmuption that the eventing spec has made is that the souce decides what to send to subscriber and subscriber must code defensively. Source may have some resource constraints meaning that it cannot always provide client subscriptions
20:55:09 [Bob]
20:56:04 [dug]
20:56:33 [Bob]
ack bob
20:56:35 [Katy]
... how should client deal with this? Send unsubscribe? Gil's proposal is one way to deal with this may be others.
20:57:40 [Katy]
Bob: Small server community tend not to have concept of timezones or persistence.
20:58:19 [dug]
earth-based?? LOL
20:58:22 [Katy]
... What should client do if it gets a notication but it has no idea why because it didn't persist previous state is another scenraio
20:59:43 [Bob]
ack bob_
20:59:48 [Bob]
ack dug
20:59:55 [gpilz]
21:00:48 [Katy]
...restricted capabilities regarding time for small clients
21:01:31 [Katy]
Doug: Subscriber should have control as its the one asking for subscription. Should not be given a random period of time by which the subscription may live.
21:01:36 [Bob]
ack gpi
21:02:00 [li]
21:02:20 [Bob]
ack li
21:03:09 [Katy]
Chair: Please add any issues with this proposal and others to mailing list.
21:03:15 [Zakim]
21:03:21 [Zakim]
- +1.703.860.aabb
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- +
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21:03:53 [Bob]
rrsagent, generate minutes
21:03:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Bob
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21:09:05 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Tom_Rutt, in WS_WSRA()3:30PM
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WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
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Attendees were +, gpilz, Bob_Freund, [IBM], +1.703.860.aabb, +1.908.696.aacc, Tom_Rutt, [Microsoft], Ashok_Malhotra, li, Yves, Mark_Little, +
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