IRC log of mediaann on 2009-09-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:01:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mediaann
12:01:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:01:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:01:04 [joakim]
zakim, this is mawg
12:01:04 [Zakim]
ok, joakim; that matches IA_MAWG()8:00AM
12:01:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be MAWG
12:01:05 [Zakim]
+ +31.20.598.aacc
12:01:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Media Annotations Working Group Teleconference
12:01:06 [trackbot]
Date: 15 September 2009
12:01:06 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see IA_MAWG()8:00AM already started
12:01:14 [Zakim]
+ +
12:01:31 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #mediaann
12:02:14 [Zakim]
12:02:37 [Zakim]
+ +049851509aaee
12:02:41 [tmichel]
tmichel has joined #mediaann
12:02:41 [raphael]
zakim, aaaa is Chris
12:02:41 [Zakim]
+Chris; got it
12:02:44 [veroniqueM]
veroniqueM has joined #mediaann
12:02:50 [florian]
Zakim aaee is me
12:02:54 [florian]
Zakim, aaee is me
12:02:54 [Zakim]
+florian; got it
12:03:00 [raphael]
zakim, aacc is veronique
12:03:00 [Zakim]
+veronique; got it
12:03:17 [Zakim]
12:03:21 [joakim]
Zakim, + is me,
12:03:21 [Zakim]
+me,; got it
12:03:57 [raphael]
12:04:06 [raphael]
Chair: Joakim
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Scribe: raphael
12:04:13 [raphael]
scribenick: raphael
12:04:27 [raphael]
Topic: 1. Admin
12:04:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
12:04:35 [joakim]
12:05:36 [raphael]
Proposal to accept minutes of last week telecon
12:05:57 [wonsuk]
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12:06:08 [raphael]
Regrets: Tobias, Werner, Felix
12:06:39 [raphael]
Present: Joakim, Chris, Florian, Raphael, Veronique, Pierre Antoine, Thierry, Wonsuk, Daniel
12:06:48 [raphael]
No objections, minutes accepted
12:06:48 [pchampin]
i volunteer
12:07:01 [Zakim]
12:07:03 [raphael]
Pierre Antoine volunteered for scribing next week meeting
12:07:30 [raphael]
zakim, me is Joakim
12:07:30 [Zakim]
+Joakim; got it
12:07:39 [raphael]
Topic: 2. Action items
12:07:40 [joakim]
12:08:11 [raphael]
12:08:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-124 -- Felix Sasaki to check - everybody responsible for a format: add a column describing syntactic information ("data types", see cable lab column "Type") to his table -- due 2009-06-16 -- OPEN
12:08:11 [trackbot]
12:08:28 [raphael]
-- ongoing
12:08:34 [raphael]
12:08:34 [trackbot]
ACTION-134 -- David Singer to revise e-mail on issues/updates of property description -- due 2009-07-02 -- OPEN
12:08:34 [trackbot]
12:08:42 [raphael]
-- ongoing
12:08:45 [raphael]
12:08:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-135 -- David Singer to update description of location to represent shot location -- due 2009-07-02 -- OPEN
12:08:45 [trackbot]
12:08:52 [raphael]
-- ongoing
12:08:54 [raphael]
12:08:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-136 -- Joakim Söderberg to will refine the subtypes, like ma:contributor, ma:publisher etc. -- due 2009-07-02 -- OPEN
12:08:55 [trackbot]
12:09:04 [raphael]
Joakim: I put a link on the wiki
12:09:13 [raphael]
close ACTION-136
12:09:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-136 Will refine the subtypes, like ma:contributor, ma:publisher etc. closed
12:09:28 [raphael]
12:09:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-148 -- WonSuk Lee to start work and collaboration on the API draft document -- due 2009-07-03 -- OPEN
12:09:28 [trackbot]
12:10:15 [raphael]
Wonsuk: you have all received the email from Florian about the issues
12:10:22 [raphael]
... I suggest we discuss these issues
12:10:48 [raphael]
Joakim: we will discuss them in the next agenda item, we can close this AP
12:10:52 [raphael]
close ACTION-148
12:10:52 [trackbot]
ACTION-148 Start work and collaboration on the API draft document closed
12:11:11 [raphael]
12:11:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-151 -- Werner Bailer to formulate an answer on the feed back from PFWG (Protocols and Formats WG) -- due 2009-09-08 -- OPEN
12:11:11 [trackbot]
12:11:26 [raphael]
Werner did that and we sent our review
12:11:31 [raphael]
close ACTION-151
12:11:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-151 Formulate an answer on the feed back from PFWG (Protocols and Formats WG) closed
12:11:38 [raphael]
12:11:42 [raphael]
12:11:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-152 -- Thierry Michel to look into web idl with victor and others -- due 2009-09-15 -- OPEN
12:11:42 [trackbot]
12:12:00 [raphael]
Thierry: i start a thread discussion,
12:12:13 [raphael]
... Victor confirmed that WebIDL could be used, as we do video on the web
12:12:29 [raphael]
... no bindings for C++, but more tailored to web based applications so fit our purpose
12:12:36 [raphael]
... webidl is anyway close to idl
12:12:41 [pchampin]
12:12:42 [raphael]
close ACTION-152
12:12:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-152 Look into web idl with victor and others closed
12:12:56 [raphael]
12:12:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-153 -- Joakim Söderberg to look into comments from werner on PFWG review -- due 2009-09-15 -- OPEN
12:12:56 [trackbot]
12:13:14 [raphael]
Joakim: this action is connected to 151
12:13:19 [raphael]
close ACTION-153
12:13:19 [trackbot]
ACTION-153 Look into comments from werner on PFWG review closed
12:13:26 [raphael]
12:13:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-154 -- Joakim Söderberg to ask dave about the relationship of digital data exchange with Apple stuff, ID3, iTunesXML, etc -- due 2009-09-15 -- OPEN
12:13:26 [trackbot]
12:13:40 [raphael]
Joakim: I have sent an email but didn't get any answer
12:13:43 [raphael]
... leave it open
12:13:45 [raphael]
-- ongoing
12:14:15 [raphael]
Topic: 3. Status of First WD of API
12:14:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
12:14:37 [joakim]
I think this initial draft is a good starting point. But there are a few major things, i am wondering about:
12:14:38 [joakim]
a) what about using interfaces as Victor proposed in [1]?
12:14:40 [joakim]
b) did we choose one of the two possibilities for the API already (specific vs. common)? AFAIK only a few of us discussed these two different approaches [2].
12:14:41 [joakim]
c) the datatypes are only "placeholder" for the finite datatypes, or? Because some of them do not fit their purpose i guess.
12:14:43 [joakim]
d) as Victor already pointed out, WebIDL is in scope of our group, so we should bring this discussion to an end and use it...
12:14:44 [joakim]
I think we have to discuss this draft more closely in todays telecon.
12:14:54 [florian]
12:16:16 [raphael]
Wonsuk: I haven't received many feedback yet on my document apart from Florian
12:17:25 [raphael]
... you can look at the API description (descriptive properties, identification, creator, content, etc)
12:17:35 [raphael]
... it includes the get and the set methods
12:17:51 [raphael]
it describes the interfaces based on ??? implementation
12:18:39 [raphael]
Wonsuk: I suggest we discuss the issues mentioned in this document
12:19:20 [raphael]
Joakim: you want to discuss the categorization of the properties?
12:19:22 [chris]
this classification conforms to the current mapping table
12:21:05 [raphael]
s/??? implementation/toy implementation
12:21:59 [raphael]
Wonsuk: do you have any questions about this?
12:22:02 [raphael]
12:22:33 [raphael]
Joakim: is this categorization so important ?
12:23:26 [raphael]
Document from Victor:
12:23:40 [raphael]
Document from Wonsuk: replace_URL
12:25:21 [raphael]
12:25:55 [raphael]
Could we please avoir to send documents to individual people? I will remind that this group operates under public, so use the public mailing list
12:26:02 [raphael]
12:26:13 [florian]
+1 raphael
12:26:36 [raphael]
Joakim: now, we need to discuss the datatypes
12:28:10 [raphael]
Wonsuk: the meaning of the RESULT is ... [to complete]
12:28:43 [raphael]
Joakim: should we have a section discussing the return types?
12:29:07 [raphael]
Wonsuk: yes perhaps, we have String, RESULT, List, Date
12:29:14 [chris]
12:30:27 [joakim]
I guess it means: sucessful/unsuccesfull
12:30:27 [raphael]
Wonsuk: trying to explain again what RESULT is ...
12:30:48 [raphael]
... it means we can parse the result ? (syntactically correct?)
12:31:00 [pchampin]
RESULT is what is sometimes called 'status', right?
12:31:25 [joakim]
while (RESULT)
12:31:56 [raphael]
Wonsuk: yes, for while and if, we can use RESULT, so looks like a boolean evaluation
12:32:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
12:33:25 [joakim]
I agree
12:33:51 [pchampin]
q+ for another question about datatypes
12:35:05 [joakim]
3. Data type Description
12:35:10 [joakim]
4. API Description
12:35:41 [raphael]
Wonsuk: discussion about identificatin of the co-editors
12:36:09 [raphael]
Joakim: Chris, Florian, Werner, Victor?, Wonsuk: who is working on the sections 3 and 4?
12:36:23 [raphael]
... is it clear ? Perhaps someone should work on the datatypes, and someone else on the API
12:36:45 [raphael]
Chris: we haven't divided yet the work as you suggested
12:37:02 [raphael]
... Wonsuk has made this first draft but we haven't discussed it yet among the editors
12:37:10 [raphael]
... now is the first time we discuss it
12:37:19 [raphael]
... I will comment it from now on
12:37:24 [raphael]
12:37:44 [raphael]
Joakim: my suggestion is to divide the work and not introduce bottlenecks
12:37:54 [raphael]
Chris: yes, I can live with that
12:37:57 [pchampin]
zakim, ack me
12:37:57 [Zakim]
unmuting pchampin
12:37:59 [Zakim]
pchampin, you wanted to discuss another question about datatypes
12:38:01 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
12:38:34 [raphael]
Pierre Antoine: I'm not quite sure it is safe to split the work between datatypes and API
12:39:04 [raphael]
... my proposal would be to split between properties which have structured values as results versus non-structured
12:39:13 [raphael]
... I think this has been mentioned on the list
12:39:29 [raphael]
... but I haven't read yet the follow-up of this dicussion or any decision
12:39:31 [florian]
12:39:42 [raphael]
... I would vote for this way of splitting
12:39:52 [joakim]
12:39:53 [raphael]
Raphael: +1 for PA proposal
12:40:22 [raphael]
Chris: We haven't formally defined which properties should have a structured or non-structured values
12:40:39 [raphael]
... we have discussed that briefly at the last f2f, but we wanted to provide examples
12:40:55 [raphael]
... so we can decide which properties will get structured values or unstructured values
12:41:01 [joakim]
12:41:12 [raphael]
... as far as I know, it is undecided yet for the properties
12:41:22 [raphael]
zakim, ack joakim
12:41:22 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
12:42:33 [pchampin]
I think it is a pre-requisite to working on the actual API
12:42:41 [raphael]
ACTION: chris and co-editors (wonsuk, florian, victor, werner) to come up for a proposal for a return type for all properties, i.e. structured or unstructured?
12:42:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-155 - And co-editors (wonsuk, florian, victor, werner) to come up for a proposal for a return type for all properties, i.e. structured or unstructured? [on Chris Poppe - due 2009-09-22].
12:43:38 [joakim]
12:43:44 [raphael]
Joakim: in your email Florian, you reference a proposal from Victor
12:44:02 [raphael]
Florian: this is an IDL example yes
12:44:04 [ChrisPoppe]
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12:44:21 [raphael]
Raphael: can we transform this same example into WebIDL?
12:44:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
12:45:00 [raphael]
Florian: I think we haven't yet discussed enough Victor's proposal?
12:45:08 [raphael]
... how could we continue to discuss it?
12:45:42 [pchampin]
from the WebIDL draft: "An interface is a specification of a set of interface members"
12:46:04 [pchampin]
so it seems that WebIDL has interfaces as well
12:46:51 [pchampin]
+1 for 1 method per property
12:47:03 [raphael]
Raphael: +1 too
12:47:47 [raphael]
Joakim: our idea is to indeed use WebIDL now
12:47:59 [raphael]
... How can we really be sure that the API will work?
12:48:09 [raphael]
Florian: should we build a reference implementation
12:48:20 [raphael]
... that complements the abstract API documentation
12:48:20 [pchampin]
I think Joakim rather means "test cases"
12:48:35 [cpoppe]
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12:48:39 [raphael]
... in the same spirit that the MPEG one
12:49:43 [raphael]
Joakim: who should provide reference implementation
12:49:48 [raphael]
Raphael: there is no rules for that
12:49:49 [pchampin]
if the reference implementations have to pass the same test-cases, does this mean that they have to be in the same language?
12:49:58 [raphael]
yes pchampin
12:50:37 [raphael]
Thierry: as raphael said, all W3C spec should go through implementations that pass test cases testing all features of the spec
12:50:59 [raphael]
Raphael: I suggest you look at the test cases developed by the Media Fragments WG as an example
12:51:04 [pchampin]
I plan to update my toy implementation as well
12:51:30 [raphael]
Raphael: Media Fragments WG test cases:
12:51:44 [pchampin]
but it's in python, which I don't think will be the final langauge
12:51:49 [pchampin]
12:51:53 [pchampin]
hence my question...
12:52:13 [raphael]
pchampin, the language used for the implementation does not matter
12:52:17 [daniel]
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12:52:40 [raphael]
the test cases should specify, if you encounter feature a, what should you do, and how can you test it does the right thing
12:54:01 [raphael]
Wonsuk: if we use WebIDL for the API draft, do we have enough time given that we have not really experts from this group
12:54:06 [raphael]
... it is just my concern
12:54:39 [raphael]
Joakim: i will forward the question to the editors, Chris, do you think it is doable?
12:54:51 [raphael]
Chris: I think it is, since WebIDL is anyway very close to IDL
12:55:07 [raphael]
... I'm not (yet) a WebIDL expert
12:55:37 [raphael]
Raphael: I will remind that Doug Shelpers said that folks from his group would be happy to help us if we are stuck
12:56:12 [raphael]
Joakim: next meeting, we can discuss which datatypes to use for each properties
12:56:14 [pchampin]
zakim, unmute me
12:56:14 [Zakim]
pchampin should no longer be muted
12:56:49 [raphael]
Pierre Antoine: I voted for one method per property, I think it is easier to work with
12:57:18 [raphael]
... maybe for some properties, we will give the choice to the developer to use a simple or a structured value
12:57:27 [pchampin]
zakim, mute me
12:57:27 [Zakim]
pchampin should now be muted
12:57:32 [raphael]
... and in this case, we might provide 2 methods OR a parameter
12:57:56 [raphael]
Joakim: thanks for your thoughts
12:58:02 [raphael]
Topic: 4. AOB
12:58:07 [raphael]
12:58:16 [raphael]
Joakim: meeting, next Tuesday
12:58:18 [pchampin]
12:58:21 [raphael]
12:58:25 [Zakim]
12:58:27 [Zakim]
12:58:27 [Zakim]
12:58:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
12:58:28 [Zakim]
12:58:30 [Zakim]
12:58:32 [Zakim]
12:58:32 [Zakim]
12:58:47 [Zakim]
12:58:52 [Zakim]
12:58:53 [Zakim]
IA_MAWG()8:00AM has ended
12:58:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were +0329331aaaa, +047269aabb, +31.20.598.aacc, raphael, +049851509aaee, Chris, florian, veronique, pchampin, tmichel, me,, wonsuk, Joakim
12:59:23 [raphael]
zakim, bye
12:59:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #mediaann
12:59:27 [raphael]
RRSAgent, bye
12:59:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
12:59:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris and co-editors (wonsuk, florian, victor, werner) to come up for a proposal for a return type for all properties, i.e. structured or unstructured? [1]
12:59:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in