12:58:53 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 12:58:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-irc 12:58:55 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:58:55 Zakim has joined #bpwg 12:58:57 Zakim, this will be BPWG 12:58:57 ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 32 minutes 12:58:58 Chair: Jo 12:58:58 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 12:58:58 Date: 15 September 2009 12:59:39 Regrets: Francois, Dan, Kai, PhilA, Manrique, Alan, Ignacio, Abel, Tom 13:22:41 jeffs has joined #bpwg 13:29:19 MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has now started 13:29:26 + +1.585.278.aaaa 13:29:41 aaaa is jeffs 13:29:56 zakim, +1.585.278.aaaa is jeffs 13:29:56 +jeffs; got it 13:29:59 miguel has joined #bpwg 13:31:00 brucel has joined #bpwg 13:31:10 EdC has joined #bpwg 13:31:40 +??P7 13:31:44 brucel 13:31:56 zakim, ??P7 is probably brucel 13:31:56 +brucel?; got it 13:32:09 +[IPcaller] 13:32:09 hi crazy bpwg cats 13:32:36 +Dom 13:32:44 zakim, [IPcaller] is Yeliz 13:32:44 +Yeliz; got it 13:33:03 zakim, who's noisy? 13:33:08 zakim, who is noisy? 13:33:14 dom, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Yeliz (100%) 13:33:17 + +34.98.439.aabb 13:33:21 cgi-irc has joined #bpwg 13:33:24 + +41.31.972.aacc 13:33:25 jeffs, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Yeliz (94%) 13:33:40 zakim,code? 13:33:41 the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), adam 13:33:44 zakim, mute yeliz 13:33:44 Yeliz should now be muted 13:33:59 zakim, list attendees 13:33:59 As of this point the attendees have been jeffs, brucel?, Dom, Yeliz, +34.98.439.aabb, +41.31.972.aacc, miguel 13:34:53 zakim, aacc is EdC 13:34:53 +EdC; got it 13:34:54 + +0207881aadd 13:35:02 SeanP has joined #bpwg 13:35:13 is there an agenda today? 13:35:23 zakim, aadd is me 13:35:23 +adam; got it 13:35:37 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/4AAF3F18.5020409@mtld.mobi 13:35:38 agenda went out via email 13:35:38 + +1.630.414.aaee 13:35:44 Zakim, aaee is me 13:35:44 +SeanP; got it 13:36:16 thx dom 13:37:25 jo has joined #bpwg 13:37:40 zakim, code? 13:37:40 the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo 13:37:54 zakim, pick a victim 13:37:54 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose miguel 13:38:02 zakim, pick a victim 13:38:02 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Yeliz (muted) 13:38:04 zakim, pick a victim 13:38:05 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose adam 13:38:07 zakim, pick a victim 13:38:07 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jeffs 13:38:17 OK, I will do it. 13:38:27 ScribeNick: EdC 13:38:30 Scribe: Ed 13:38:32 + +0208995aaff 13:38:45 zakim, aaff is me 13:38:45 +jo; got it 13:40:03 -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/tpac2009-2/results Results of survey on F2F meeting at TPAC 13:40:15 Topic: F2F meeting 13:40:26 will hopefully know later this week if I will be in Trinidad in November & thus unable to attend the TPAC/F2F or in the States & attending 13:40:37 Topic F2F meeting. Results of the survey indicate that it is not going to take place as originally planned. 13:41:11 ACTION: francois to cancel TPAC F2F for BPWG 13:41:11 Created ACTION-1004 - Cancel TPAC F2F for BPWG [on François Daoust - due 2009-09-22]. 13:41:13 New objective is to find an place in Europe and a suitable date. Is it an urgent task? 13:42:04 Dom: decisions must be made 8 weeks in advance. 13:43:18 Jo: tentatively week on the 16th November. 13:43:41 Jo: provide an alternative in Europe early December. 13:44:40 ACTION: Francois to set up a survey to find dates for F2F, either week of Nov 16, Nov 30 or Dec 7, and ask for hosting offers in Europe 13:44:40 Created ACTION-1005 - Set up a survey to find dates for F2F, either week of Nov 16, Nov 30 or Dec 7, and ask for hosting offers in Europe [on François Daoust - due 2009-09-22]. 13:44:41 Jo: we must action François to make yet another poll (2009-11-16, or 2009-11-30, or possibly 2009-12-07). 13:45:09 zakim, unmute me yeliz 13:45:09 I don't understand 'unmute me yeliz', dom 13:45:14 Topic: Integration of MobileOK Checker into Eclipse 13:45:17 zakim, unmute yeliz 13:45:17 Yeliz should no longer be muted 13:45:17 Topic MobileOK checked and Eclipse. 13:45:32 Yeliz's line is very poor. 13:46:03 zakim, who is making noise? 13:46:05 Topic: MobileOK checked and Eclipse 13:46:13 jeffs, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jo (86%) 13:46:33 s/Topic: MobileOK checked and Eclipse// 13:46:37 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobileok-checker/2009Sep/0004.html Yeliz message on wrapping mobileOK checker for Eclipse 13:46:38 Jo: current proposal is to provide a plugin for Eclipse into the source-control tree of mobileOk checker. 13:47:01 Yeliz: This is a proposal to solve issues with external libraries. 13:47:31 Yeliz: this requires additional files, but does not entail code change. 13:47:45 s/Topic MobileOK checked and Eclipse./Topic: MobileOK checker and Eclipse. 13:48:01 [sounds good to me] 13:48:33 -Dom 13:48:34 Jo: no resolution required, but personally the feeling is to go ahead and do it. 13:48:55 Yeliz: will go on with the work and implementing the plugin. 13:49:18 Topic MWABP 2. 13:49:20 +Dom 13:49:27 s/Topic /Topic: / 13:49:42 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0019.html Adam's plea for a resolution on SVG and canvas 13:49:50 Adam: major topic remaining is SVG/Canvas. We should arrive at a consensus soon in order to finalize the document. 13:50:10 Jo: Is there a proposed resolution? There has been discussion going on. 13:50:22 permission to speak? 13:50:29 q+ brucel 13:50:40 ack brucel 13:50:52 Adam: Not being an expert on Canvas, difficult to settle alone the matter. Jeff and EdC have expressed their opinion, might propose something. 13:51:18 ack b 13:51:42 Bruce: canvas accessibility is limited. SVG is currently more accessible than canvas, worth a clear mention in the text. 13:51:58 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0017.html Eduardo's Proposed Text 13:52:05 yes, svg is more accessible like is avail to dom 13:52:10 worth adding 13:52:12 s/dom/DOM/ 13:52:24 Jo: not much feedback on that text. Except for Rotan. 13:52:32 ok, will feedback to Edouardo's text before end of week 13:52:48 (had escaped my attention previously) 13:53:08 Adam: the text is too detailed and long, but can serve as a starting point. 13:53:15 suggestion: whoever rewrites adds accessibility statement 13:53:21 ACTION: Bruce to send feedback on Eduardo's proposal on Canvas & SVG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0017.html - due September 18 13:53:21 Created ACTION-1006 - send feedback on Eduardo's proposal on Canvas & SVG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0017.html [on Bruce Lawson - due 2009-09-18]. 13:53:49 Jo: we do not mention proprietary technologies explicitly, though we may mention that some exist. 13:53:56 +1 13:54:21 Jo: so explicit mentions of proprietary technologies should be eliminated. 13:54:24 q+ 13:54:24 +1 13:54:40 q+ to ask about last call eta? 13:54:47 ack jeffs 13:54:48 Adam: we are almost there with the document. 13:55:25 ack me 13:55:25 dom, you wanted to ask about last call eta? 13:55:26 Jeff: suggest that accessibility issues must be included in the draft. 13:55:45 Dom: what is remaining to be done before a last call? 13:56:01 Jo: a resolution of the group is required. 13:56:21 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/14 11 open action items on mwabp 13:56:21 Dom: However, there are quite a number of issues/actions remaining to be discharged. What is the situation? 13:56:56 Adam: we nailed many of them last time we went through. Unclear about what is blocking the cleanup of the action items. 13:57:18 Dom: Somebody should go systematically through these items and check them carefully. 13:57:46 Dom: When is a draft expected to be ready? 13:57:50 Adam: by the end of the week. 13:58:05 Dom: hopefully we can decide upon a last call next week during the teleconference. 13:58:19 Topic BP 1.5. 13:58:26 s/Topic /Topic: / 13:58:54 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/mobileOKPro/drafts/ED-mobileOK-pro10-tests-20090914 Latest editors draft of BP 1.5 13:58:57 Jo: there is a draft. Next step is to agree to launch a last call. 13:59:19 +1 13:59:22 Jo: still wants to perform a last review. 13:59:43 Jo: let us plan to take a final resolution on it next week. 14:00:06 s/still wants to perform a last review. /people should review over the next week 14:00:10 -Dom 14:00:22 Topic: CT guidelines 14:00:43 Jo: shows contrition at not having moved forward with his action points. 14:01:16 Jo: François made a call for tests. No progress has been reported in this area. 14:01:32 +Dom 14:01:32 q+ 14:01:33 claiming sickness and worse fo not being ale to carry out his action points ... 14:01:41 ack d 14:02:26 q+ 14:02:26 Dom: Regarding the call for tests, a possible source would be to ask CT vendors (Google, Novarra, etc). Do they have test suites that they could contribute to W3C? 14:02:43 ack s 14:02:45 Dom: If so, we could make a lot of progress faster. 14:03:04 ACTION: Sean to check if novarra has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines 14:03:04 Created ACTION-1007 - Check if novarra has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines [on Sean Patterson - due 2009-09-22]. 14:03:11 SeanP: Might have a few tests, but not all relevant or really suitable for the CT. 14:03:48 Dom: Bruce and Adam could perhaps check within their organization about availability of test suites. 14:03:53 ACTION: Adam to check if Google has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines 14:03:53 Created ACTION-1008 - Check if Google has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines [on Adam Connors - due 2009-09-22]. 14:03:56 will do. 14:04:06 ACTION: Bruce to check if Opera has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines 14:04:06 Created ACTION-1009 - Check if Opera has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines [on Bruce Lawson - due 2009-09-22]. 14:04:22 Topic: Issue 296 14:04:40 Jeff: Contribution of Jonathan was answered by Jeff. 14:05:15 zakim, mute me 14:05:15 Dom should now be muted 14:05:21 s/Jeff:/Jo: 14:05:27 Jeff: The basic idea: there is a change in the mobile environment. Current mindset in W3C is general phone / feature phone. Jonathan contends that smartphone should now be the primary target for standardization. 14:06:11 Jo: We have discussed the topic many time. We are considering about a device with basic Web capabilities -- not specific form factors. 14:07:08 q+ 14:07:24 Jo: It is basically ok to refer to the capabilities corresponding to those of feature phones, but this does not mean that we are focussing on those specific models of phones. 14:07:53 Jo: We must note that there are mobiles that are not phones, but that have Web capabilities. 14:07:53 ack j 14:08:23 s/Issue 296/ISSUE-296/ 14:08:27 ISSUE-296? 14:08:27 ISSUE-296 -- "feature phone vs. smartphone, which handsets will make large web traffic ?" -- OPEN 14:08:27 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/296 14:09:14 Jeff: What is needed is to take into account developments that render phones are no longer just Web-capable devices, but handsets endowed with further capabilities (e.g. location). And these are becoming widespread -- and thus should be the target of standardization. 14:09:20 q+ 14:09:35 Jo: Careful about the charter: we deal with mobile Web best practices -- not mobile phones best practices. 14:09:36 s/Topic: F2F meeting/Topic: F2F meeting (ISSUE-299)/ 14:09:47 ack j 14:10:38 Jeff: This is something to keep in mind as we reach the end of the current activities. 14:10:48 Jo: To close this issue -- a resolution. 14:12:29 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-296 recognising that Jonathan makes an important point about the growth of smartphone as opposed to feature phone but that the BPWG is about Mobile Devices not mobile phones specifically, so we must take into account minimal Web access capability from any device, not just phones, important though that is 14:12:51 (works for me) 14:12:56 +1 14:13:26 +1 14:13:30 +1 14:13:35 RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-296 recognising that Jonathan makes an important point about the growth of smartphone as opposed to feature phone but that the BPWG is about Mobile Devices not mobile phones specifically, so we must take into account minimal Web access capability from any device, not just phones, important though that is 14:13:36 RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-296 recognising that Jonathan makes an important point about the growth of smartphone as opposed to feature phone but that the BPWG is about Mobile Devices not mobile phones specifically, so we must take into account minimal Web access capability from any device, not just phones, important though that is 14:13:39 close ISSUE-296 14:13:39 ISSUE-296 "feature phone vs. smartphone, which handsets will make large web traffic ?" closed 14:14:15 is this true? "BPWG is about Mobile Devices not mobile phones specifically" 14:14:25 hmmmmmm 14:14:34 move on 14:15:06 Jo: Let us look at pending issues and actions. 14:15:29 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/14 Action items related to MWABP 14:15:33 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/14 Open Actions on BP2 14:15:53 Topic: Action items review 14:16:05 ACTION-873? 14:16:05 ACTION-873 -- Daniel Appelquist to provide some words on conservative use of resources -- due 2008-10-28 -- OPEN 14:16:05 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/873 14:16:05 Adam: 873 may well be obsolete. 14:16:22 close ACTION-873 14:16:22 ACTION-873 Provide some words on conservative use of resources closed 14:16:33 ACTION-911 14:16:36 ACTION-911? 14:16:36 ACTION-911 -- Jeffrey Sonstein to get Prof. Bogaard at RIT to review SVG materials and suggest how/if to address in BP -- due 2009-03-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:16:36 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/911 14:17:15 Jeff: nothing more is really needed at this point. We can close it. 14:17:17 close ACTION-911 14:17:17 ACTION-911 Get Prof. Bogaard at RIT to review SVG materials and suggest how/if to address in BP closed 14:17:23 ACTION-918? 14:17:23 ACTION-918 -- Daniel Appelquist to write a relevant section at Webapps Wiki to act as reference for On MWABP 1.3.2 DKA -- due 2009-04-01 -- OPEN 14:17:23 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/918 14:17:48 close ACTION-918 14:17:48 ACTION-918 Write a relevant section at Webapps Wiki to act as reference for On MWABP 1.3.2 DKA closed 14:17:52 ACTION-924? 14:17:52 ACTION-924 -- Daniel Appelquist to and Jeffs to wander the highways and byways of SVG and Canvas and cook something up for the group's approval -- due 2009-04-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:17:52 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/924 14:17:53 924 and 958 are really the same thing 14:18:03 close ACTION-924 14:18:03 ACTION-924 And Jeffs to wander the highways and byways of SVG and Canvas and cook something up for the group's approval closed 14:18:08 ACTION-957? 14:18:08 ACTION-957 -- Adam Connors to draft a BP on login forms adapting previous resolutions on the topic for discussion -- due 2009-05-05 -- OPEN 14:18:08 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/957 14:18:14 Jeff: this is done -- being properly baked by Adam. 14:18:27 close ACTION-957 14:18:27 ACTION-957 Draft a BP on login forms adapting previous resolutions on the topic for discussion closed 14:18:53 ACTION-958? 14:18:53 ACTION-958 -- Jeffrey Sonstein to review some of the 3.4 & 3.5 examples from the perspective of the average developer and report -- due 2009-05-18 -- OPEN 14:18:53 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/958 14:19:00 I think this should be closed 14:19:12 close ACTION-958 14:19:12 ACTION-958 Review some of the 3.4 & 3.5 examples from the perspective of the average developer and report closed 14:19:15 Jeff: it was so long ago, no longer relevant. 14:19:20 ACTION-964? 14:19:20 ACTION-964 -- Tom Hume to review AtomDB for potential inclusion/reference in MWABP -- due 2009-06-09 -- OPEN 14:19:20 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/964 14:19:43 Jo: leave this action open till Tom can report. 14:20:01 ACTION-997? 14:20:01 ACTION-997 -- Adam Connors to write first text based on the listserve discussion of Media Queries -- due 2009-07-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:20:01 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/997 14:20:10 Adam: done. 14:20:11 close ACTION-997 14:20:12 ACTION-997 Write first text based on the listserve discussion of Media Queries closed 14:20:17 ACTION-998? 14:20:17 ACTION-998 -- Adam Connors to extract some useful info from the discussion around ACTION-790 and add it to the doc -- due 2009-07-21 -- OPEN 14:20:17 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/998 14:20:33 ACTION-790? 14:20:33 ACTION-790 -- Alan Chuter to produce some text around accessibility of Javascript for Web Application Best Practices -- due 2008-07-03 -- CLOSED 14:20:33 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/790 14:21:08 Jo: Accessibility of Javascript. Do we have anything on that. 14:21:09 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0081.html Alan's proposal on accessibility of javascript 14:21:39 Adam: kind of unclear; screen readers have problems with Javascript-based content. Thorough experimentation is missing. 14:21:56 Jo: Combine this with the accessibility of canvas? 14:22:04 too disparate 14:22:14 Adam: they are separate topics (though canvas is essentially Javascript). 14:22:39 q+ 14:22:55 ack b 14:22:56 generalized statement(s) about lack of interaction between JavaScript-based technologies and acessibility needs might work 14:24:20 Bruce: the concept of live regions might help. There is a W3C method to go around the issues of Javascript with screen readers. 14:24:57 Adam: a reference to that work with a note about how to deal with the impact of Javascript on usability might be good. 14:25:18 Jo: so this is the new interpretation of 998. 14:25:30 ACTION-1003? 14:25:30 ACTION-1003 -- Bruce Lawson to follow up within Opera as to what exactly the XSS test scripts supplied by chaals guard against -- due 2009-09-08 -- OPEN 14:25:30 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/1003 14:26:00 Bruce: no feedback yet, but reply is expected soon. 14:27:29 Bruce: No feedback yet on action 1006, but Adam is editing the document anyway. We should note that SVG is xml and text, so is accessible (potentially). Canvas has no DOM and so accessibility hooks. 14:27:36 close ACTION-1006 14:27:36 ACTION-1006 send feedback on Eduardo's proposal on Canvas & SVG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0017.html closed 14:28:08 Jo: only two items left on MWABP. 14:28:42 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/open 14:30:20 Jo: several actions left on CTG (most of the items remaining in the list). I will progress with them, and we can tidy them up from next week onwards. 14:30:36 Jo: AOB? 14:31:09 Jo: the meeting is concluded. Next week, let us take a resolution on BP, and review MWABP. 14:31:10 (waves goodbye) 14:31:11 hugs you guys, missing you already 14:31:13 -adam 14:31:15 -jo 14:31:15 -Dom 14:31:18 -brucel? 14:31:22 -Yeliz 14:31:23 -SeanP 14:31:23 -miguel 14:31:24 -jeffs 14:31:27 -EdC 14:31:28 MWI_BPWG()9:30AM has ended 14:31:29 Attendees were jeffs, brucel?, Dom, Yeliz, +34.98.439.aabb, +41.31.972.aacc, miguel, EdC, +0207881aadd, adam, +1.630.414.aaee, SeanP, +0208995aaff, jo 14:31:31 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:31:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-minutes.html dom 14:36:17 Zakim, bye 14:36:17 Zakim has left #bpwg 14:36:19 RRSAgent, bye 14:36:19 I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-actions.rdf : 14:36:19 ACTION: francois to cancel TPAC F2F for BPWG [1] 14:36:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-irc#T13-41-11 14:36:19 ACTION: Francois to set up a survey to find dates for F2F, either week of Nov 16, Nov 30 or Dec 7, and ask for hosting offers in Europe [2] 14:36:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-irc#T13-44-40 14:36:19 ACTION: Bruce to send feedback on Eduardo's proposal on Canvas & SVG http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2009Sep/0017.html - due September 18 [3] 14:36:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-irc#T13-53-21 14:36:19 ACTION: Sean to check if novarra has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines [4] 14:36:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-irc#T14-03-04 14:36:19 ACTION: Adam to check if Google has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines [5] 14:36:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-irc#T14-03-53 14:36:19 ACTION: Bruce to check if Opera has tests they could contribute for CT guidelines [6] 14:36:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/15-bpwg-irc#T14-04-06 14:36:21 dom has left #bpwg